14:41:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:41:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc
14:41:34 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
14:42:14 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0053.html
14:42:23 <John_Boyer> Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
14:42:28 <John_Boyer> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0053.html
14:42:32 <John_Boyer> Chair: John
14:42:36 <John_Boyer> Regrets: Leigh, Uli
14:43:01 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started
14:43:03 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:43:11 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
14:43:11 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
14:43:43 <wiecha> Scribe: Charlie Wiecha
14:43:52 <wiecha> scribenick: wiecha
14:44:06 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:44:07 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
14:44:07 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:44:28 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
14:45:57 <ebruchez> FYI will be a few mins late
14:49:16 <nick> zakim, code?
14:49:16 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
14:50:14 <Zakim> +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:51:13 <wiecha> John: is it easy for you (Nick) to create updates to your test report?
14:51:32 <wiecha> Nick: yes, have a couple of stylesheets to do the merge of results and then generate HTML
14:52:20 <wiecha> John: for Ubiquity, have asked folks to create issues for features we're not passing but are orange/red in your report...meaning we don't have enough impls to proceed...not that many exist
14:52:44 <wiecha> John: should be coming soon
14:53:03 <wiecha> s/should/issue list should
14:53:09 <wiecha> John: mailto might be hard
14:53:19 <wiecha> Nick: I can look at that since we've done that in Chiba
14:53:27 <wiecha> Nick: but it's pretty busy here now
14:53:28 <Zakim> +ebruchez
14:53:36 <wiecha> John: we should be able to do an implementation report from Ubiquity soon
14:55:12 <wiecha> Topic: Test suits as Google code project
14:55:23 <wiecha>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0025.html
14:55:43 <wiecha> John: talked with Nick about what we have in CVS now...most folks working on it have access now
14:55:59 <wiecha> John: there's lots of licensing stuff to be worked out if we want to go external
14:56:18 <wiecha> John: would need CLAs etc for participants
14:56:41 <wiecha> John: probably best to just keep as it is for now
14:57:02 <wiecha> Topic: Link error removal caused version-exception section to move
14:57:12 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0035.html
14:57:27 <wiecha> this is in a subsection of the spec, whose removal would cause renumbering of the spec
14:58:24 <wiecha> John: have massaged text to avoid this so that impl reports etc are not impacted
15:00:32 <wiecha> ACTION: Nick to update spec to correct section numbering given link error removal
15:00:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-527 - Update spec to correct section numbering given link error removal [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2009-04-01].
15:01:29 <wiecha> John: timing not critical so appreciate you can get to it when possible
15:01:53 <wiecha> Topic: Is the zip file updated?
15:02:01 <wiecha> Nick: normally, yes
15:02:06 <wiecha> Nick: it's an ant build
15:02:36 <wiecha> John: Erik -- have you been able to update output w/label issue etc?
15:02:43 <wiecha> Erik: will look at this this week
15:02:57 <wiecha> John: Nick, can you point to the ant script?
15:03:03 <wiecha> Nick: yes, it's in CVS
15:03:26 <wiecha> John: your style sheets etc that creates analysis across impls?
15:03:33 <wiecha> Nick: right, that's not checked in yet
15:03:46 <wiecha> John: if you could put that in the 2008 directory under the impl reports that would be nice
15:04:01 <wiecha> Nick: those files can also be externally downloaded...is that ok?
15:04:10 <wiecha> John: yes, tools for analysis are available too
15:04:14 <wiecha> which is ok
15:04:41 <nick> /Forms WG/Test/XForms1.1/Edition1/zip/build.xml
15:04:45 <wiecha> John: might help other people run the builds, and also perhaps to include our results in other test suites
15:05:01 <wiecha> Nick: ok, will check them in
15:05:20 <wiecha> ACTION: Nick to check in ant scripts for building test results into CVS
15:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-528 - Check in ant scripts for building test results into CVS [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2009-04-01].
15:05:36 <wiecha> Topic: Informative: digest and hmac results for hex encoding
15:05:47 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0031.html
15:06:24 <wiecha> John: made things strange to say impls could do either approach, so I would up saying it's lower case
15:06:53 <wiecha> John: tests were invoking translate to force lowercase, which we don't technically need now...probably doesn't matter to keep this
15:07:03 <wiecha> John: but would be nice to remove this translation
15:07:24 <prb> prb has joined #forms
15:07:49 <wiecha> ACTION: John_Boyer to update tests to change digest and hmac tests to remove translation to lowercase
15:07:49 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer
15:08:12 <Zakim> +??P31
15:08:36 <prb> Zakim, I am ??P31
15:08:36 <Zakim> +prb; got it
15:09:07 <wiecha> Topic: Informative: setvalue behavior on roots and ns nodes not changed
15:09:16 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0036.html
15:09:59 <wiecha> John: we said actions on root (insert/delete) did not have defined behavior here
15:10:21 <wiecha> John: when checking the spec, setvalue already had defined semantics there...so didn't change setvalue
15:10:29 <wiecha> John: what it says however is different from insert/delete
15:10:47 <wiecha> John: setvalue says namespace node targeted action is undefined
15:10:54 <wiecha> John: vs ignored for insert/delete
15:11:10 <wiecha> John: leave implementors a bit of wiggle room for setvalue
15:11:32 <wiecha> John: which seems like a better idea so left unchanged
15:11:44 <wiecha> John: setvalue on root node produces binding exception
15:12:05 <wiecha> John: if you disagree, please post to the list
15:12:21 <wiecha> Topic: Question about how to update test 11.9.4.b
15:12:29 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0091.html
15:13:06 <wiecha> John: problem is xforms-link-error is used to test delete method of submission
15:13:35 <wiecha> John: question to the group is how to modify the test to still test delete?
15:13:50 <wiecha> John: Nick, do you remember is this local file or remote resource?
15:14:15 <wiecha> Nick: rel path to the test file beside the form...then load trigger which should produce link error to missing file
15:14:32 <wiecha> John: now we say load indicates failure in implemention-specific way
15:14:38 <wiecha> Nick: right, so not clear how to update the test
15:15:52 <wiecha> John: rather than using link-error, could the test just try to activate the load file trigger, should fail to load?
15:15:56 <wiecha> Nick: yes
15:16:05 <wiecha> John: then just delete the action that listens for the the link error
15:16:21 <wiecha> Paul: or use second submission that tries to load and then look for submit error there
15:16:28 <wiecha> John: better since that can be automated
15:16:54 <wiecha> Nick: it's now a text file but we can use an xml file
15:18:04 <wiecha> John: on replace="all" we don't get a submit error
15:18:31 <wiecha> John: btw, not sure we have any impls passing the test getting done or error events on replace="all"
15:18:45 <wiecha> John: will have to deal with this across all impl reports
15:19:09 <wiecha> John: we could replace text in the same page to see submit error
15:19:39 <wiecha> John: to fix this w/o needing replace="all"
15:19:50 <wiecha> Nick: but then we need another 1.1 feature to test this
15:19:57 <wiecha> John: but delete is a 1.1 feature
15:20:07 <wiecha> Nick: I haven't implemented replace text
15:20:23 <wiecha> John: then we could use xml and replace instance instead
15:20:25 <wiecha> Nick: ok
15:21:08 <wiecha> John: but whatever file we use is going to be deleted anyway :}
15:22:01 <wiecha> John: is there a specific error we should look for?
15:22:30 <wiecha> John: looks like a resource error
15:22:41 <wiecha> John: Nick, could you modify this test?
15:23:02 <wiecha> Nick: sure, should we fill in response code? or is this too much function?
15:23:11 <wiecha> John: probably ok to just check submit-error
15:23:41 <John_Boyer> <message ev:event="xforms-submit-error" if="event('error-type')='resource-error'">You pass</message>
15:24:50 <wiecha> ACTION: Nick to update test 11.9.4.b to test for xforms-submit-error
15:24:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-529 - Update test 11.9.4.b to test for xforms-submit-error [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2009-04-01].
15:24:55 <wiecha> Topic: Using submission to validate data
15:25:06 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0084.html
15:25:21 <wiecha> John: don't know if we have a test for this yet
15:25:27 <wiecha> John: yes, there is one
15:25:42 <wiecha> John: we state it's possible to use a submission to validate data
15:25:57 <wiecha> John: without needing to actually transmit to the server if valid
15:26:04 <wiecha> John: use case is just validation
15:26:15 <wiecha> John: not elegant but works for 1.1
15:26:26 <wiecha> John: so we should have a test for this
15:26:57 <wiecha> John: if submission has not resource or action attribute or element then submission will fail but the rest of the pipeline gets executed
15:27:11 <nick> nick has joined #forms
15:27:30 <Zakim> -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
15:27:41 <wiecha> John: so it should be possible to use submission and just look for failing with validation error vs resource error
15:27:57 <wiecha> John: and just ignore the resource error
15:28:40 <wiecha> John: any objections to add this to the test suite?
15:28:41 <wiecha> +1
15:28:49 <ebruchez> sounds good to me
15:28:53 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/att-0084/11.2.g.xhtml
15:30:17 <prb> +1
15:30:29 <wiecha> ACTION: John_Boyer to add test for using submission for validation purposes
15:30:29 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer
15:30:56 <wiecha> Topic: relevance pruning before validation
15:31:06 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Feb/0083.html
15:31:42 <wiecha> John: fine tuning of test suite ... probably lots of areas like this we could update in the test suite
15:32:19 <wiecha> John: we test for no nodes and produce error, then do validation after that during submission...this is a test to ensure tests happen in that order
15:32:56 <wiecha> John: should we update or leave?
15:32:58 <wiecha> leave
15:33:06 <wiecha> is this a new test?
15:33:11 <wiecha> ok, then sure
15:33:33 <wiecha> adding
15:33:41 <prb> add
15:34:01 <wiecha> just didn't want to rock the boat if it's an existing test
15:34:28 <wiecha> ACTION: John_Boyer to add test for sequencing of relevance pruning before validation
15:34:28 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer
15:34:51 <wiecha> John: Paul, do you know if we add these tests to the core area, we have to add entries into xml results files, right?
15:34:54 <wiecha> Paul: yes
15:35:11 <wiecha> John: not clear to me how to wire them in to be run automatically
15:35:26 <wiecha> Paul: need to add new selenium driver for each test and add that to the main driver for that chapter
15:36:37 <wiecha> John: there's a real chance that folks don't get the processing order right
15:36:55 <wiecha> Paul: some impls may predate the spec nailing down this ordering
15:37:15 <wiecha> Topic: Lazy authoring tests are broken
15:37:23 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0027.html
15:37:40 <wiecha> John: these tests need modification
15:37:45 <wiecha> John: have posted what's required
15:38:01 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0027.html
15:38:02 <wiecha> John: looks like most would pass the first test, and fail the second
15:38:13 <wiecha> John: first is false positive, and second is false negative
15:38:44 <wiecha> John: lazy authoring is when you don't have an instance declared...but both tests have one
15:39:12 <wiecha> John: the c.2 test has a ref="/car" and that node exists...
15:39:25 <wiecha> John: nobody would report an error since the form is valid
15:40:38 <wiecha> John: if you don't have an instance, then ref="/car" is not a QName so we can't generate a node...so just need to remove the instance so we can check QName conformance
15:40:50 <wiecha> John: think I just removed the instance and cleaned stuff up
15:40:59 <wiecha> John: but implementors would need to be notified of this change to retest
15:41:12 <wiecha> John: should we change? think so
15:41:13 <wiecha> +1
15:41:19 <prb> +1
15:42:22 <wiecha> ACTION: John_Boyer to update test suite to repair lazy authoring tests
15:42:22 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer
15:43:44 <wiecha> John: automation is a bit tricky
15:43:55 <wiecha> John: since we can't initialize lazy authored nodes to a specific value
15:44:04 <wiecha> John: so we have to do a set and then test after the fact
15:44:22 <wiecha> John: this aspect is good
15:44:27 <wiecha> Topic: Test 6.1.3.b is broken
15:44:36 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0045.html
15:45:39 <wiecha> John: test is claiming requiredness from xsi:nil
15:45:52 <wiecha> John: test author confused this with required MIP
15:46:06 <wiecha> John: might be getting false positive passes here
15:46:22 <wiecha> John:  dont' have suggestion on how to rewrite this...will take a bit of effort
15:46:38 <wiecha> Paul: what do you think it will take?
15:46:48 <wiecha> John: mostly to just rethink how xsi:nil works etc
15:47:11 <wiecha> John: this one is specifically testing xsi:nil for support
15:47:35 <wiecha> John: not sure if anyone will pass this...option is to just remove or rewrite it
15:48:24 <wiecha> ACTION: wiecha to rewrite xsi:nil test
15:48:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-530 - Rewrite xsi:nil test [on Charles Wiecha - due 2009-04-01].
15:49:04 <wiecha> Topic: Tests corrections for appendix B9, B11 and B14
15:49:13 <wiecha> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0046.html
15:49:40 <wiecha> John: title suggests data mutations based on insert/delete...should just change to include setvalue 
15:49:47 <wiecha> John: because of B11
15:49:58 <wiecha> John: B9 is copy an attribute
15:49:58 <John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/0046.html
15:50:55 <wiecha> John: we have specific language suggesting context attribute rather than nodeset to needs to change to reflect that
15:51:07 <wiecha> s/suggesting/requiring
15:51:15 <wiecha> B11 says replace an attribute
15:51:28 <wiecha> attribute exists, and we're replacing with same name but diff value
15:51:34 <wiecha> best done by setvalue not insert
15:51:48 <wiecha> John: would like to update the test to reflect this
15:52:05 <wiecha> John: rather than delete followed by insert...two actions and a rebuild vs. setvalue action
15:52:23 <wiecha> ACTION: wiecha to update B9, B11, and B14
15:52:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-531 - Update B9, B11, and B14 [on Charles Wiecha - due 2009-04-01].
15:53:18 <wiecha> ACTION: John_Boyer to update B9, B11, and B14 tests
15:53:18 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer
15:53:41 <wiecha> nick...please delete action 9 since john will do this instead
15:54:17 <wiecha> John: don't see an agenda item to raise the issue of submission testing when replace="all"
15:54:45 <wiecha> John: when we have tests looking for events coming off such a submission, which is problematic
15:54:57 <wiecha> John: most impls will delegate replace="all" to the browser so we lose control
15:55:25 <wiecha> John: if error, browser will report that
15:55:33 <wiecha> John: if success, we're gone so how to report success?
15:55:46 <wiecha> John: don't believe we have (or can have) passing impls for this
15:56:24 <wiecha> John: (checking...) not sure we actually have a test trying to do this
15:56:28 <wiecha> Paul: think there is one, yes
15:58:27 <wiecha> John: we might have already updated the test suite to correct for this
15:58:52 <wiecha> John: it's still a problem for the spec but we might not be testing for it right now
16:00:26 <wiecha> Paul: 11.4.b has replace="none"
16:00:31 <wiecha> John: also 11.4.a
16:00:37 <wiecha> John: so they've been changed to do that
16:00:46 <wiecha> John: so we have to worry just about the spec
16:02:11 <wiecha> 11.4 
16:03:47 <wiecha> John: language seems more appropriate to replace instance and none
16:04:23 <wiecha> John: in 11.2 possibility of amending first and last bullets to avoid submit-done in replace="all" case
16:04:40 <wiecha> John: objections?
16:05:08 <wiecha> John: also submit-error
16:07:29 <wiecha> Erik: wondering whether in javascript if you implement submission with replace="all" with XHR could you still see these events?
16:08:19 <wiecha> Erik: and server-side impls have more control over this
16:08:35 <wiecha> Erik: so could perhaps also use these events
16:09:27 <wiecha> Erik: so for those cases where you have control maybe we should leave this 
16:09:54 <wiecha> John: that's how we came to remove link-error...implementation specific how they'd be handled
16:10:06 <wiecha> John: depending on whether the platform had control or not
16:11:21 <wiecha> John: could add a note suggesting what some implementations could do
16:12:22 <wiecha> Erik: native implementations could do this
16:13:49 <wiecha> John: rework bullets to add a note
16:14:04 <wiecha> Erik: or suggest that implementations may skip these events if unable to support them
16:14:55 <wiecha> John: might prefer implementation-specific behavior since this would not require tests or conforming impls
16:15:16 <wiecha> Erik: ok, in any event reasonable to alter this text
16:15:47 <wiecha> ACTION: John_Boyer to update section 11.2 to suggest implementation specific behavior for submit-done or error
16:15:47 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - John_Boyer
16:16:44 <John_Boyer> above action is specific to replace all case
16:17:36 <wiecha> John: all, please focus on discussions related to test suite so we can close out the implementation reports
16:17:43 <wiecha> John: at least one more coming from the ubiquity side
16:18:03 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:18:04 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:18:04 <Zakim> -wiecha
16:18:06 <Zakim> -prb
16:18:07 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
16:18:08 <Zakim> Attendees were wiecha, John_Boyer, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, ebruchez, prb
16:18:22 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:18:26 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> I see 11 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-actions.rdf :
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Nick to update spec to correct section numbering given link error removal [1]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-00-32
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Nick to check in ant scripts for building test results into CVS [2]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-05-20
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John_Boyer to update tests to change digest and hmac tests to remove translation to lowercase [3]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-07-49
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Nick to update test 11.9.4.b to test for xforms-submit-error [4]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-24-50
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John_Boyer to add test for using submission for validation purposes [5]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-30-29
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John_Boyer to add test for sequencing of relevance pruning before validation [6]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-34-28
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John_Boyer to update test suite to repair lazy authoring tests [7]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-42-22
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wiecha to rewrite xsi:nil test [8]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-48-24
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wiecha to update B9, B11, and B14 [9]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-52-23
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John_Boyer to update B9, B11, and B14 tests [10]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T15-53-18
16:18:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: John_Boyer to update section 11.2 to suggest implementation specific behavior for submit-done or error [11]
16:18:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/25-forms-irc#T16-15-47