IRC log of ua on 2009-03-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:47:14 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #ua
- 16:47:14 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc
- 16:47:14 [sharper]
- chair: Allan_James
- 16:47:16 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 16:47:17 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #ua
- 16:47:18 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
- 16:47:18 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
- 16:47:19 [trackbot]
- Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
- 16:47:19 [trackbot]
- Date: 12 March 2009
- 16:47:29 [sharper]
- scribe: Harper_Simon
- 16:47:29 [sharper]
- ScribeNick: sharper
- 16:47:50 [sharper]
- present: Allan_James, Harper_Simon, Spellman_Jeanne
- 16:48:09 [sharper]
- meeting: User Agent Working Group Telecon - 12 Mar 2009
- 16:48:23 [sharper]
- zakim, code?
- 16:48:23 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
- 16:49:06 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
- 16:49:06 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Draft Status
- 16:49:07 [sharper]
- Agenda+ telecom next week (17 March)?
- 16:49:07 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative
- 16:49:07 [sharper]
- Agenda+ CSUN Presentation discussion
- 16:49:07 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/
- 16:49:44 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/ March 19 deadline
- 16:49:54 [sharper]
- Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review deadline mid April (take up after CSUN)
- 16:49:54 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Action Item Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
- 16:49:55 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Open Issues Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open
- 16:50:10 [sharper]
- zakim, take up item 1
- 16:50:10 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from sharper]
- 16:50:45 [sharper]
- present: Allan_James, Harper_Simon, Spellman_Jeanne
- 16:52:09 [sharper]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0076.html
- 16:52:21 [sharper]
- zakim, code?
- 16:52:21 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
- 16:53:10 [sharper]
- zakim, save agenda
- 16:53:16 [Zakim]
- ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-agenda.rdf
- 16:53:49 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 16:53:49 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 16:53:55 [Zakim]
- WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
- 16:54:02 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 16:54:37 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 16:54:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 16:54:47 [KFord]
- KFord has joined #ua
- 16:55:06 [sharper]
- present+ Ford_Kelly
- 16:56:18 [KFord]
- zakim who's here
- 16:56:46 [sharper]
- zakim, who's here?
- 16:56:46 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see [Microsoft]
- 16:56:47 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see KFord, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper, AllanJ, jeanne, trackbot
- 16:57:25 [Zakim]
- + +1.512.206.aaaa
- 16:57:55 [Zakim]
- +Jeanne
- 16:57:57 [AllanJ]
- zakim, aaaa is really allanj
- 16:57:57 [Zakim]
- +allanj; got it
- 16:58:12 [Zakim]
- +??P4
- 16:58:16 [JR]
- JR has joined #ua
- 16:58:16 [sharper]
- zakim, ??P4 is sharper
- 16:58:16 [Zakim]
- +sharper; got it
- 16:58:58 [sharper]
- regrets+ Swan_Henny
- 17:00:35 [sharper]
- web: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/
- 17:00:50 [sharper]
- attendance: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080822/
- 17:01:08 [sharper]
- action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
- 17:01:08 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - items
- 17:01:08 [AllanJ]
- regrets+ Alan_Cantor
- 17:01:33 [JR]
- zakim, code?
- 17:01:33 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR
- 17:01:35 [sharper]
- current-draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/
- 17:01:59 [sharper]
- present+ Richards_Jan
- 17:02:23 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 17:02:34 [JR]
- zakim, ??P8 is really JR
- 17:02:34 [Zakim]
- +JR; got it
- 17:03:19 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 17:03:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 17:03:28 [AllanJ]
- Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? Agenda+ Draft Status Agenda+ telecom next week (17 March)? Agenda+ Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative Agenda+ CSUN Presentation discussion Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/
- 17:04:34 [sharper]
- zakim, drop item 11
- 17:04:34 [Zakim]
- agendum 11, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? Agenda+ Draft Status Agenda+ telecom next week (17 March)? Agenda+ Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) -
- 17:04:37 [Zakim]
- ... tentative Agenda+ CSUN Presentation discussion Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/, dropped
- 17:06:03 [jeanne]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/
- 17:07:35 [mhakkinen]
- mhakkinen has joined #ua
- 17:07:43 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 1
- 17:07:43 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
- 17:07:43 [sharper]
- zakim, next item
- 17:07:44 [Zakim]
- I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:07:45 [Zakim]
- 2. Draft Status [from sharper]
- 17:07:46 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Draft Status" taken up [from sharper]
- 17:08:21 [sharper]
- JS: Draft has been published, and cam out at 14:17 EST yesterday.
- 17:08:41 [sharper]
- JA: Comments by April 22nd - post CSUN
- 17:08:57 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 2
- 17:08:57 [Zakim]
- agendum 2, Draft Status, closed
- 17:08:57 [sharper]
- zakim, next item
- 17:08:58 [Zakim]
- I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:08:59 [Zakim]
- 3. telecom next week (17 March)? [from sharper]
- 17:09:00 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "telecom next week (17 March)?" taken up [from sharper]
- 17:09:05 [Zakim]
- +Mark_Hakkinen
- 17:09:22 [sharper]
- present+ Hakkinen_Mark
- 17:11:01 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: No meeting on the 17th March as it's CSUN
- 17:11:23 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 3
- 17:11:23 [Zakim]
- agendum 3, telecom next week (17 March)?, closed
- 17:11:24 [sharper]
- zakim, next item
- 17:11:25 [Zakim]
- I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 17:11:26 [Zakim]
- 4. Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative [from sharper]
- 17:11:27 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative" taken up [from sharper]
- 17:12:09 [sharper]
- JR: People still want to talk about it.
- 17:12:21 [sharper]
- JS: Concurs
- 17:13:09 [sharper]
- JS: trying to build consensus - so when we go to HTML5 it will be a united front - otherwise there may be problems.
- 17:13:17 [KFord]
- q+
- 17:13:21 [sharper]
- JR: we need to avoid disputs
- 17:13:33 [sharper]
- ack KFord
- 17:14:00 [sharper]
- KF: JR and you summarise, then we can talk
- 17:16:07 [sharper]
- JR: General Resolutions giving background (Reads Text)
- 17:16:58 [sharper]
- JR: photo site as an example can use alt to put label 5 of 200 - but not good for accessible usage and authors should look at WCAG 2 for accessibility.
- 17:18:10 [sharper]
- JR: The draft then defines 'Image validity' - all the points that must be met to mean the image is valid (in the context of accessibility).
- 17:20:23 [sharper]
- JA: long text alternatives - no longdef - can be depricated as describedby will cover this.
- 17:21:45 [sharper]
- MH: describedby will be pointed to a link.
- 17:22:07 [sharper]
- JA: role = presentation is equivalent to alt=""
- 17:24:19 [sharper]
- MH: did anyone suggest role be required
- 17:24:38 [KFord]
- q+
- 17:24:44 [sharper]
- JR: was some discussion but as there are only 2 options no thought necessary
- 17:25:16 [sharper]
- MH: does the term 'presentation' jar with anyone as it is so open to interpretation and misuse.
- 17:26:09 [sharper]
- ack KFord
- 17:28:11 [sharper]
- KF: JR what's your view
- 17:29:34 [sharper]
- KF: what if things are marked as they should not be - should user agents be able to see this
- 17:29:45 [sharper]
- JR: UA supposed to support ARIA role = presentation (don't add to dom).
- 17:30:39 [sharper]
- KF: some assistive technology corrects incorrect things, is this possible with this role?
- 17:31:38 [sharper]
- KF: alt="" gives access but makes a statement - role = presentation cuts access as it is not in the dom - therefore no shot at this.
- 17:31:47 [sharper]
- JR: I agree - comes down to the trust issue
- 17:32:41 [AllanJ]
- q+
- 17:32:54 [sharper]
- ack AllanJ
- 17:34:00 [sharper]
- JA: if author gets it wrong - no access to src?
- 17:34:32 [sharper]
- JR: this can be placed anywhere and there dom is not modified.
- 17:34:32 [sharper]
- q+
- 17:34:50 [AllanJ]
- ack sharper
- 17:34:52 [mhakkinen]
- q+
- 17:35:16 [sharper]
- ack sharper
- 17:35:18 [AllanJ]
- SH: worrying that things fall out of the DOM
- 17:35:39 [sharper]
- KF: Internal mail to pf working group - can we get greater detail
- 17:35:45 [AllanJ]
- ...conflicts with accessibility and UA to repair
- 17:36:07 [sharper]
- MH: worrying how things could drop out of the accessibility feature.
- 17:36:19 [sharper]
- ack mhakkinen
- 17:36:30 [sharper]
- MH: seems to be a backward step
- 17:36:34 [JR]
- Here's a link http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-20090224/#presentation
- 17:36:57 [sharper]
- JA: should always be in the dom - but can be ignored
- 17:42:13 [AllanJ]
- concerns:
- 17:44:14 [AllanJ]
- 1. role=presentation - misuse or abuse of that role
- 17:45:03 [AllanJ]
- want role=image to convey this is content, but no alt yet and UA should look for fall back content
- 17:45:36 [AllanJ]
- JR: alt is required in HTML4, one purpose is for author education
- 17:45:58 [AllanJ]
- ...forces author to use alt (properly or not)...trust
- 17:46:36 [AllanJ]
- MH: will have validation error if alt="" with no role=presentation
- 17:47:07 [AllanJ]
- KF: what is UA fall back for role=presentation
- 17:47:14 [sharper]
- KF: this makes accessibility harder
- 17:47:47 [sharper]
- JR: respect the opinion, may need to take it back
- 17:48:41 [sharper]
- JR: How will people behave - we just don't no too many factors...
- 17:51:40 [sharper]
- q+
- 17:51:54 [JR]
- ack sharper
- 17:52:19 [AllanJ]
- SH: ok with @alt, issue with role=presentation
- 17:52:49 [JR]
- q+
- 17:53:00 [sharper]
- ack JR
- 17:53:13 [AllanJ]
- ...does UA need to make a requirement to cover "The user agent MAY choose not to present all structural aspects of the element being repurposed. " from http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-20090224/#presentation
- 17:53:22 [AllanJ]
- JR: +1
- 17:53:34 [AllanJ]
- ...should appear in the dom
- 17:54:56 [sharper]
- SH: +1
- 17:55:12 [AllanJ]
- JA: should be in DOM by default, user has option to opt-out
- 17:55:25 [AllanJ]
- JR: UA needs a setting
- 17:55:28 [sharper]
- sh: +1
- 17:58:19 [sharper]
- KFord: css concept of generated content - not supposed to be in the dom either.
- 17:58:28 [AllanJ]
- JA: is it covered by 2.1.2 2.1.2 Name, Role, State, Value, Description: For all user interface components including the user interface and rendered content, make available the name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture. (Level A)
- 18:01:01 [AllanJ]
- action: JA to ping Gregory and David on PF about Aria issues
- 18:01:01 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-159 - Ping Gregory and David on PF about Aria issues [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-19].
- 18:05:13 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: await KFords comments back from his PF contact - we have time before their 'call', and contact Gregory and David also on PF. THIS NEEDS REVISITING - KEEP ON AGENDA.
- 18:05:49 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 4
- 18:05:49 [Zakim]
- agendum 4, Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative, closed
- 18:05:52 [Zakim]
- I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 18:05:53 [Zakim]
- 5. CSUN Presentation discussion [from sharper]
- 18:09:16 [JR]
- JR could join by phone - chance I could attend in person but not sure how good
- 18:09:36 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Can we commit to attend TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009
- 18:09:51 [sharper]
- zakim, take up item 12
- 18:09:52 [Zakim]
- agendum 12. "Can we commit to attend TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009" taken up [from sharper]
- 18:10:07 [sharper]
- JA: when do we need to commit?
- 18:10:50 [sharper]
- JS: Not sure, maybe restructuring - better to say no and then go for it at a later date
- 18:11:38 [sharper]
- KFord: thinks we say no
- 18:11:57 [sharper]
- JA: do this as a No, initially.
- 18:13:40 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: No to meeting at TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009.
- 18:13:50 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 12
- 18:13:50 [Zakim]
- agendum 12, Can we commit to attend TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009, closed
- 18:13:52 [Zakim]
- I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 18:13:53 [Zakim]
- 5. CSUN Presentation discussion [from sharper]
- 18:14:02 [sharper]
- zakim, take up item 5
- 18:14:02 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "CSUN Presentation discussion" taken up [from sharper]
- 18:16:15 [sharper]
- JA: JS and I are still thrashing this. Currently looking at presenting it as: things we do, issues with browsers, things we're trying to fix, illustrated with demos, examples etc. Then ask people to comment on the draft.
- 18:16:45 [sharper]
- JS: Know of people attending - can you brief them that the presentation will occur on Saturday.
- 18:17:17 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 5
- 18:17:17 [Zakim]
- agendum 5, CSUN Presentation discussion, closed
- 18:17:18 [Zakim]
- I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 18:17:19 [Zakim]
- 6. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from sharper]
- 18:17:24 [sharper]
- zakim, next item
- 18:17:24 [Zakim]
- agendum 6. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from sharper]
- 18:17:41 [sharper]
- zakim, save agenda
- 18:17:41 [Zakim]
- ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-agenda.rdf
- 18:17:50 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 18:17:50 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 18:17:50 [KFord]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/IG/#mailinglist
- 18:19:52 [AllanJ]
- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results#xq5
- 18:20:26 [sharper]
- Glossary Proposal - alert
- 18:20:56 [sharper]
- JA: 3 accept, 2 changes, 1 neutral
- 18:21:33 [sharper]
- Proposed delete 'alert' use "Notify": User Agents may notify users of events or status changes through the use of a message displayed within content, within the framework of the User Agent user interface (e.g., status bar), or through a pop-up window generated from the content or from the User Agent user interface. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g.,
- 18:21:48 [AllanJ]
- proposed rewording: To make the user aware of events or status changes. Notifications can occur within the user agent user interface (e.g., status bar) or within the content display. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g., a confirmation dialog).
- 18:22:03 [AllanJ]
- +1
- 18:22:10 [sharper]
- +1
- 18:23:37 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: New rewording: To make the user aware of events or status changes. Notifications can occur within the user agent user interface (e.g., status bar) or within the content display. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g., a confirmation dialog).
- 18:23:54 [jeanne]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 18:24:09 [AllanJ]
- Action: JS to delete 'alert' from glossary and document, add/substitute 'notify' in glossary and document. use resolved defintion
- 18:24:11 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-160 - Delete 'alert' from glossary and document, add/substitute 'notify' in glossary and document. use resolved defintion [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-19].
- 18:24:13 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 18:24:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 18:24:31 [sharper]
- zakim, save agenda
- 18:24:31 [Zakim]
- ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-agenda.rdf
- 18:25:54 [sharper]
- Glossary Proposal - audio
- 18:26:17 [sharper]
- Proposed audio: The technology of sound reproduction. Audio can be created synthetically (including speech synthesis), streamed from a live source (such as a radio broadcast), or recorded from real world sounds.
- 18:26:19 [KFord]
- +1 to what mH said.
- 18:26:34 [sharper]
- accept 4 / discuss 1 / neutral 1
- 18:26:45 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: audio: The technology of sound reproduction. Audio can be created synthetically (including speech synthesis), streamed from a live source (such as a radio broadcast), or recorded from real world sounds.
- 18:26:58 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 18:26:58 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 18:27:04 [AllanJ]
- action: JS apply new definition of Audio to glossary
- 18:27:04 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-161 - Apply new definition of Audio to glossary [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-19].
- 18:27:30 [sharper]
- Proposed element, element type: A pair of tags and their content, or an "empty" tag - one that requires no closing tag or content (used in the same sense as in HTML and XML) [adapted from ATAG 2.0]
- 18:27:52 [sharper]
- accept 4 / change 1 / discuss 2 / neutral 1
- 18:29:13 [JR]
- q+
- 18:29:47 [sharper]
- ack JR
- 18:30:06 [sharper]
- JR: should we break apart into 2 types?
- 18:31:17 [sharper]
- JA: need to break up element and element type:
- 18:31:34 [JR]
- action JR: Look at breaking up "element", "element type"
- 18:31:34 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-162 - Look at breaking up \"element\", \"element type\" [on Jan Richards - due 2009-03-19].
- 18:31:45 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: Further analysis required.
- 18:32:01 [Zakim]
- -[Microsoft]
- 18:32:03 [Zakim]
- -JR
- 18:32:05 [Zakim]
- -Mark_Hakkinen
- 18:32:07 [Zakim]
- -sharper
- 18:32:10 [sharper]
- rsagent, draft minutes
- 18:32:18 [sharper]
- zakim, please part
- 18:32:18 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were [Microsoft], +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, allanj, sharper, JR, Mark_Hakkinen
- 18:32:18 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #ua
- 18:32:41 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 18:32:41 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 18:33:37 [sharper]
- rrsagent, please part
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-actions.rdf :
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: items to http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [1]
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T17-01-08
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JA to ping Gregory and David on PF about Aria issues [2]
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T18-01-01
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JS to delete 'alert' from glossary and document, add/substitute 'notify' in glossary and document. use resolved defintion [3]
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T18-24-09
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JS apply new definition of Audio to glossary [4]
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T18-27-04
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JR to Look at breaking up "element", "element type" [5]
- 18:33:37 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T18-31-34