IRC log of ua on 2009-03-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:47:14 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:47:14 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc
16:47:14 [sharper]: chair: Allan_James
16:47:16 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:47:17 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #ua
16:47:18 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:47:18 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
16:47:19 [trackbot]: Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:47:19 [trackbot]: Date: 12 March 2009
16:47:29 [sharper]: scribe: Harper_Simon
16:47:29 [sharper]: ScribeNick: sharper
16:47:50 [sharper]: present: Allan_James, Harper_Simon, Spellman_Jeanne
16:48:09 [sharper]: meeting: User Agent Working Group Telecon - 12 Mar 2009
16:48:23 [sharper]: zakim, code?
16:48:23 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
16:49:06 [sharper]: Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
16:49:06 [sharper]: Agenda+ Draft Status
16:49:07 [sharper]: Agenda+ telecom next week (17 March)?
16:49:07 [sharper]: Agenda+ Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative
16:49:07 [sharper]: Agenda+ CSUN Presentation discussion
16:49:07 [sharper]: Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/
16:49:44 [sharper]: Agenda+ Web security last call http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wsc-ui-20090226/ March 19 deadline
16:49:54 [sharper]: Agenda+ WAI-ARIA last call review deadline mid April (take up after CSUN)
16:49:54 [sharper]: Agenda+ Action Item Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
16:49:55 [sharper]: Agenda+ Open Issues Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open
16:50:10 [sharper]: zakim, take up item 1
16:50:10 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from sharper]
16:50:45 [sharper]: present: Allan_James, Harper_Simon, Spellman_Jeanne
16:52:09 [sharper]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0076.html
16:52:21 [sharper]: zakim, code?
16:52:21 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
16:53:10 [sharper]: zakim, save agenda
16:53:16 [Zakim]: ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-agenda.rdf
16:53:49 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:53:49 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
16:53:55 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:54:02 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:54:37 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:37 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
16:54:47 [KFord]: KFord has joined #ua
16:55:06 [sharper]: present+ Ford_Kelly
16:56:18 [KFord]: zakim who's here
16:56:46 [sharper]: zakim, who's here?
16:56:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see [Microsoft]
16:56:47 [Zakim]: On IRC I see KFord, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper, AllanJ, jeanne, trackbot
16:57:25 [Zakim]: + +1.512.206.aaaa
16:57:55 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
16:57:57 [AllanJ]: zakim, aaaa is really allanj
16:57:57 [Zakim]: +allanj; got it
16:58:12 [Zakim]: +??P4
16:58:16 [JR]: JR has joined #ua
16:58:16 [sharper]: zakim, ??P4 is sharper
16:58:16 [Zakim]: +sharper; got it
16:58:58 [sharper]: regrets+ Swan_Henny
17:00:35 [sharper]: web: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/
17:00:50 [sharper]: attendance: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20080822/
17:01:08 [sharper]: action items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
17:01:08 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - items
17:01:08 [AllanJ]: regrets+ Alan_Cantor
17:01:33 [JR]: zakim, code?
17:01:33 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), JR
17:01:35 [sharper]: current-draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090121-ED/
17:01:59 [sharper]: present+ Richards_Jan
17:02:23 [Zakim]: +??P8
17:02:34 [JR]: zakim, ??P8 is really JR
17:02:34 [Zakim]: +JR; got it
17:03:19 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:19 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:03:28 [AllanJ]: Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? Agenda+ Draft Status Agenda+ telecom next week (17 March)? Agenda+ Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative Agenda+ CSUN Presentation discussion Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/
17:04:34 [sharper]: zakim, drop item 11
17:04:34 [Zakim]: agendum 11, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? Agenda+ Draft Status Agenda+ telecom next week (17 March)? Agenda+ Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) -
17:04:37 [Zakim]: ... tentative Agenda+ CSUN Presentation discussion Agenda+ Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/, dropped
17:06:03 [jeanne]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/
17:07:35 [mhakkinen]: mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:07:43 [sharper]: zakim, close item 1
17:07:43 [Zakim]: agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
17:07:43 [sharper]: zakim, next item
17:07:44 [Zakim]: I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:07:45 [Zakim]: 2. Draft Status [from sharper]
17:07:46 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Draft Status" taken up [from sharper]
17:08:21 [sharper]: JS: Draft has been published, and cam out at 14:17 EST yesterday.
17:08:41 [sharper]: JA: Comments by April 22nd - post CSUN
17:08:57 [sharper]: zakim, close item 2
17:08:57 [Zakim]: agendum 2, Draft Status, closed
17:08:57 [sharper]: zakim, next item
17:08:58 [Zakim]: I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:08:59 [Zakim]: 3. telecom next week (17 March)? [from sharper]
17:09:00 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "telecom next week (17 March)?" taken up [from sharper]
17:09:05 [Zakim]: +Mark_Hakkinen
17:09:22 [sharper]: present+ Hakkinen_Mark
17:11:01 [sharper]: RESOLVED: No meeting on the 17th March as it's CSUN
17:11:23 [sharper]: zakim, close item 3
17:11:23 [Zakim]: agendum 3, telecom next week (17 March)?, closed
17:11:24 [sharper]: zakim, next item
17:11:25 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:11:26 [Zakim]: 4. Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative [from sharper]
17:11:27 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative" taken up [from sharper]
17:12:09 [sharper]: JR: People still want to talk about it.
17:12:21 [sharper]: JS: Concurs
17:13:09 [sharper]: JS: trying to build consensus - so when we go to HTML5 it will be a united front - otherwise there may be problems.
17:13:17 [KFord]: q+
17:13:21 [sharper]: JR: we need to avoid disputs
17:13:33 [sharper]: ack KFord
17:14:00 [sharper]: KF: JR and you summarise, then we can talk
17:16:07 [sharper]: JR: General Resolutions giving background (Reads Text)
17:16:58 [sharper]: JR: photo site as an example can use alt to put label 5 of 200 - but not good for accessible usage and authors should look at WCAG 2 for accessibility.
17:18:10 [sharper]: JR: The draft then defines 'Image validity' - all the points that must be met to mean the image is valid (in the context of accessibility).
17:20:23 [sharper]: JA: long text alternatives - no longdef - can be depricated as describedby will cover this.
17:21:45 [sharper]: MH: describedby will be pointed to a link.
17:22:07 [sharper]: JA: role = presentation is equivalent to alt=""
17:24:19 [sharper]: MH: did anyone suggest role be required
17:24:38 [KFord]: q+
17:24:44 [sharper]: JR: was some discussion but as there are only 2 options no thought necessary
17:25:16 [sharper]: MH: does the term 'presentation' jar with anyone as it is so open to interpretation and misuse.
17:26:09 [sharper]: ack KFord
17:28:11 [sharper]: KF: JR what's your view
17:29:34 [sharper]: KF: what if things are marked as they should not be - should user agents be able to see this
17:29:45 [sharper]: JR: UA supposed to support ARIA role = presentation (don't add to dom).
17:30:39 [sharper]: KF: some assistive technology corrects incorrect things, is this possible with this role?
17:31:38 [sharper]: KF: alt="" gives access but makes a statement - role = presentation cuts access as it is not in the dom - therefore no shot at this.
17:31:47 [sharper]: JR: I agree - comes down to the trust issue
17:32:41 [AllanJ]: q+
17:32:54 [sharper]: ack AllanJ
17:34:00 [sharper]: JA: if author gets it wrong - no access to src?
17:34:32 [sharper]: JR: this can be placed anywhere and there dom is not modified.
17:34:32 [sharper]: q+
17:34:50 [AllanJ]: ack sharper
17:34:52 [mhakkinen]: q+
17:35:16 [sharper]: ack sharper
17:35:18 [AllanJ]: SH: worrying that things fall out of the DOM
17:35:39 [sharper]: KF: Internal mail to pf working group - can we get greater detail
17:35:45 [AllanJ]: ...conflicts with accessibility and UA to repair
17:36:07 [sharper]: MH: worrying how things could drop out of the accessibility feature.
17:36:19 [sharper]: ack mhakkinen
17:36:30 [sharper]: MH: seems to be a backward step
17:36:34 [JR]: Here's a link http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-20090224/#presentation
17:36:57 [sharper]: JA: should always be in the dom - but can be ignored
17:42:13 [AllanJ]: concerns:
17:44:14 [AllanJ]: 1. role=presentation - misuse or abuse of that role
17:45:03 [AllanJ]: want role=image to convey this is content, but no alt yet and UA should look for fall back content
17:45:36 [AllanJ]: JR: alt is required in HTML4, one purpose is for author education
17:45:58 [AllanJ]: ...forces author to use alt (properly or not)...trust
17:46:36 [AllanJ]: MH: will have validation error if alt="" with no role=presentation
17:47:07 [AllanJ]: KF: what is UA fall back for role=presentation
17:47:14 [sharper]: KF: this makes accessibility harder
17:47:47 [sharper]: JR: respect the opinion, may need to take it back
17:48:41 [sharper]: JR: How will people behave - we just don't no too many factors...
17:51:40 [sharper]: q+
17:51:54 [JR]: ack sharper
17:52:19 [AllanJ]: SH: ok with @alt, issue with role=presentation
17:52:49 [JR]: q+
17:53:00 [sharper]: ack JR
17:53:13 [AllanJ]: ...does UA need to make a requirement to cover "The user agent MAY choose not to present all structural aspects of the element being repurposed. " from http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-wai-aria-20090224/#presentation
17:53:22 [AllanJ]: JR: +1
17:53:34 [AllanJ]: ...should appear in the dom
17:54:56 [sharper]: SH: +1
17:55:12 [AllanJ]: JA: should be in DOM by default, user has option to opt-out
17:55:25 [AllanJ]: JR: UA needs a setting
17:55:28 [sharper]: sh: +1
17:58:19 [sharper]: KFord: css concept of generated content - not supposed to be in the dom either.
17:58:28 [AllanJ]: JA: is it covered by 2.1.2 2.1.2 Name, Role, State, Value, Description: For all user interface components including the user interface and rendered content, make available the name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture. (Level A)
18:01:01 [AllanJ]: action: JA to ping Gregory and David on PF about Aria issues
18:01:01 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-159 - Ping Gregory and David on PF about Aria issues [on Jim Allan - due 2009-03-19].
18:05:13 [sharper]: RESOLVED: await KFords comments back from his PF contact - we have time before their 'call', and contact Gregory and David also on PF. THIS NEEDS REVISITING - KEEP ON AGENDA.
18:05:49 [sharper]: zakim, close item 4
18:05:49 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Review WAI-ALT attribute proposal (HTML5) - tentative, closed
18:05:52 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:05:53 [Zakim]: 5. CSUN Presentation discussion [from sharper]
18:09:16 [JR]: JR could join by phone - chance I could attend in person but not sure how good
18:09:36 [sharper]: Agenda+ Can we commit to attend TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009
18:09:51 [sharper]: zakim, take up item 12
18:09:52 [Zakim]: agendum 12. "Can we commit to attend TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009" taken up [from sharper]
18:10:07 [sharper]: JA: when do we need to commit?
18:10:50 [sharper]: JS: Not sure, maybe restructuring - better to say no and then go for it at a later date
18:11:38 [sharper]: KFord: thinks we say no
18:11:57 [sharper]: JA: do this as a No, initially.
18:13:40 [sharper]: RESOLVED: No to meeting at TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009.
18:13:50 [sharper]: zakim, close item 12
18:13:50 [Zakim]: agendum 12, Can we commit to attend TPAC in Santa Clara California Nov 2-6, 2009, closed
18:13:52 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:53 [Zakim]: 5. CSUN Presentation discussion [from sharper]
18:14:02 [sharper]: zakim, take up item 5
18:14:02 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "CSUN Presentation discussion" taken up [from sharper]
18:16:15 [sharper]: JA: JS and I are still thrashing this. Currently looking at presenting it as: things we do, issues with browsers, things we're trying to fix, illustrated with demos, examples etc. Then ask people to comment on the draft.
18:16:45 [sharper]: JS: Know of people attending - can you brief them that the presentation will occur on Saturday.
18:17:17 [sharper]: zakim, close item 5
18:17:17 [Zakim]: agendum 5, CSUN Presentation discussion, closed
18:17:18 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:17:19 [Zakim]: 6. Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/ [from sharper]
18:17:24 [sharper]: zakim, next item
18:17:24 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Survey Results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/" taken up [from sharper]
18:17:41 [sharper]: zakim, save agenda
18:17:41 [Zakim]: ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-agenda.rdf
18:17:50 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
18:17:50 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:17:50 [KFord]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/IG/#mailinglist
18:19:52 [AllanJ]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090223/results#xq5
18:20:26 [sharper]: Glossary Proposal - alert
18:20:56 [sharper]: JA: 3 accept, 2 changes, 1 neutral
18:21:33 [sharper]: Proposed delete 'alert' use "Notify": User Agents may notify users of events or status changes through the use of a message displayed within content, within the framework of the User Agent user interface (e.g., status bar), or through a pop-up window generated from the content or from the User Agent user interface. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g.,
18:21:48 [AllanJ]: proposed rewording: To make the user aware of events or status changes. Notifications can occur within the user agent user interface (e.g., status bar) or within the content display. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g., a confirmation dialog).
18:22:03 [AllanJ]: +1
18:22:10 [sharper]: +1
18:23:37 [sharper]: RESOLVED: New rewording: To make the user aware of events or status changes. Notifications can occur within the user agent user interface (e.g., status bar) or within the content display. Notifications may be passive and not require user acknowledgment, or they may be presented in the form of a prompt requesting a user response (e.g., a confirmation dialog).
18:23:54 [jeanne]: rrsagent, make logs public
18:24:09 [AllanJ]: Action: JS to delete 'alert' from glossary and document, add/substitute 'notify' in glossary and document. use resolved defintion
18:24:11 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-160 - Delete 'alert' from glossary and document, add/substitute 'notify' in glossary and document. use resolved defintion [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-19].
18:24:13 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
18:24:13 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:24:31 [sharper]: zakim, save agenda
18:24:31 [Zakim]: ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-agenda.rdf
18:25:54 [sharper]: Glossary Proposal - audio
18:26:17 [sharper]: Proposed audio: The technology of sound reproduction. Audio can be created synthetically (including speech synthesis), streamed from a live source (such as a radio broadcast), or recorded from real world sounds.
18:26:19 [KFord]: +1 to what mH said.
18:26:34 [sharper]: accept 4 / discuss 1 / neutral 1
18:26:45 [sharper]: RESOLVED: audio: The technology of sound reproduction. Audio can be created synthetically (including speech synthesis), streamed from a live source (such as a radio broadcast), or recorded from real world sounds.
18:26:58 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
18:26:58 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:27:04 [AllanJ]: action: JS apply new definition of Audio to glossary
18:27:04 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-161 - Apply new definition of Audio to glossary [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-03-19].
18:27:30 [sharper]: Proposed element, element type: A pair of tags and their content, or an "empty" tag - one that requires no closing tag or content (used in the same sense as in HTML and XML) [adapted from ATAG 2.0]
18:27:52 [sharper]: accept 4 / change 1 / discuss 2 / neutral 1
18:29:13 [JR]: q+
18:29:47 [sharper]: ack JR
18:30:06 [sharper]: JR: should we break apart into 2 types?
18:31:17 [sharper]: JA: need to break up element and element type:
18:31:34 [JR]: action JR: Look at breaking up "element", "element type"
18:31:34 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-162 - Look at breaking up \"element\", \"element type\" [on Jan Richards - due 2009-03-19].
18:31:45 [sharper]: RESOLVED: Further analysis required.
18:32:01 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
18:32:03 [Zakim]: -JR
18:32:05 [Zakim]: -Mark_Hakkinen
18:32:07 [Zakim]: -sharper
18:32:10 [sharper]: rsagent, draft minutes
18:32:18 [sharper]: zakim, please part
18:32:18 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were [Microsoft], +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, allanj, sharper, JR, Mark_Hakkinen
18:32:18 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ua
18:32:41 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
18:32:41 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:33:37 [sharper]: rrsagent, please part
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-actions.rdf :
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: items to http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open [1]
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T17-01-08
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: JA to ping Gregory and David on PF about Aria issues [2]
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T18-01-01
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: JS to delete 'alert' from glossary and document, add/substitute 'notify' in glossary and document. use resolved defintion [3]
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T18-24-09
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: JS apply new definition of Audio to glossary [4]
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T18-27-04
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: JR to Look at breaking up "element", "element type" [5]
18:33:37 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/12-ua-irc#T18-31-34