15:41:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #backplane
15:41:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-backplane-irc
15:41:43 <wiecha> rrsagent, make logs public
15:41:54 <wiecha> Meeting: RWAB telecon, March 3
15:41:57 <wiecha> Chair: wiecha
15:42:07 <wiecha> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/0001.html
15:58:39 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has now started
15:58:46 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:58:51 <wiecha> zakim, [IBM] is wiecha
15:58:51 <Zakim> +wiecha; got it
16:00:58 <unl> unl has joined #backplane
16:01:14 <unl> zakim, code?
16:01:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 7922 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), unl
16:03:09 <Zakim> +unl
16:03:54 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
16:04:28 <wiecha> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/0001.html
16:06:04 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #backplane
16:06:08 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
16:06:08 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:06:10 <Zakim> +Steven
16:06:23 <jackjansen> zakim, code?
16:06:23 <Zakim> the conference code is 7922 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jackjansen
16:06:29 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
16:06:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see wiecha, unl, John_Boyer, Steven
16:06:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see jackjansen, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, wiecha, Steven
16:06:59 <Zakim> +??P0
16:07:09 <jackjansen> zakim, p0 is me
16:07:09 <Zakim> sorry, jackjansen, I do not recognize a party named 'p0'
16:07:19 <jackjansen> zakim, ??p0 is me
16:07:19 <Zakim> +jackjansen; got it
16:07:27 <wiecha> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2009Mar/0001.html
16:07:47 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #backplane
16:10:01 <John_Boyer> scribe: John_Boyer
16:11:15 <John_Boyer> Charlie: reviews agenda, suggests discussing AC issue first
16:11:51 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Steven can you tell us a bit more about the structure/content of the meeting?
16:12:11 <John_Boyer> Steven: still very vague, still just day1, day2...
16:12:40 <John_Boyer> Charlie: We saw an agenda that said "Future of XHTML2/XForms..."
16:13:11 <John_Boyer> Steven: Only a draft; nothing confirmed.  But Philippe heard I was going and added me to a panel
16:13:47 <unl> zakim, mute me
16:13:47 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
16:13:49 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Are there preparatory readings we could send out so people are refreshed on work we've presented in the past on ubiquity
16:14:22 <John_Boyer> Steven: Are you suggesting getting it sent out in the package of W3C materials?
16:14:56 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Any mechanism to alert people to the possibilities we convey.
16:15:15 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Maybe we should talk about those points, e.g. there is a cool way of supporting XML on the client
16:15:54 <John_Boyer> Charlie: And that this opens up possibilities of supporting XML vocabularies that we hadn't thought of supporting on the web anymore
16:16:10 <John_Boyer> Steven: I really think we need to take emphasis away from the web as being only HTML
16:16:29 <John_Boyer> Charlie: This is why I've been pushing ODF, XBRL etc.
16:17:28 <John_Boyer> Steven: This whole battle is about the browser vendors trying to take back control because they're being asked to do a lot of things they may not want to do, so they're putting everything into HTML so they don't have do support broader extensibility
16:18:11 <John_Boyer> Charlie: TimBL seemed quite excited about our approach at last TPAC
16:18:49 <John_Boyer> Steven: Shouldn't centralize all the power in one group and then saying anything that goes in the browser is in their group.  We need design done by domain experts.
16:20:38 <John_Boyer> Charlie: What do others think?
16:22:13 <John_Boyer> John: Very pleased with progress of ubiquity in proving out that something like xforms can be delivered on the web, but have really also been advocating other presentational vocabularies like ODF and SMIL etc. to show that we can deliver W3C client technologies on the web without being limited by the browser vendors
16:22:59 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Need to solidify what markup vocabularies could really be supported.  Also need to identify what are our pain points in delivering these technologies.
16:23:20 <John_Boyer> Jack: But the html group is really developing a closed operating system.
16:23:34 <John_Boyer> Jack: our extensibility story goes against that
16:24:01 <John_Boyer> Jack: you have to be careful to ask for an extension framework, not just specific extensions.
16:24:20 <John_Boyer> Jack: Problem is that we already have that, namespaces in HTML, and we know what they think of that
16:25:00 <John_Boyer> Charlie: But there may be an API level we can talk about.
16:25:26 <John_Boyer> Charlie:  Look at the decorator.js mechanism in Ubiquity.  It has lots of browser differences to make that happen.
16:26:07 <John_Boyer> Jack: but we are still at the research phase. We can really only do xforms right now; as we work on SMIL I'm sure there will be pain points
16:26:22 <John_Boyer> Jack: ubiquity loader is a candidate, but it is not mature enough to standardize yet
16:26:42 <John_Boyer> Jack: we don't have a clear enough idea yet what a generalized decorator/loader should do
16:27:24 <John_Boyer> Charlie: But when is the time to open the conversation about using the browser in this way as opposed to closing it
16:27:54 <John_Boyer> Charlie: I guess you're saying that leave it at that because if we have a more specific list then it might be limiting
16:28:41 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Is that the consensus?
16:29:18 <John_Boyer> John: I like the idea of just presenting the general approach, but we need to mention a couple of examples just to give an idea what we're talking about
16:29:54 <John_Boyer> Jack: what ubiquity does now is use stuff like stylesheets to attach behaviors to elements.
16:30:19 <John_Boyer> Jack: The big advantage there, over a loop on startup, is that stuff that is created dynamically after startup also gets the same behaviors.
16:30:34 <John_Boyer> Charlie: declarative creation of structure *and* behaviors
16:31:03 <Steven> XBL does the same too. If it ever becomes interoperable it makes our life much easier
16:31:51 <John_Boyer> Charlie: I pushed that (XBL) at TPAC to the point where Chris Lilley took a poll. response from browser vendors was interesting but not high on list
16:32:32 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Is there some politics around XBL.  Is it the X?
16:32:49 <John_Boyer> Steven: It takes power out of the browser makers hands.
16:32:56 <John_Boyer> Jack: but how is that different from javascript
16:33:16 <jackjansen> Ad=o1gl
16:33:23 <John_Boyer> Steven: Well, I agree.  But you have to code javascript.  XBL makes things *a lot* easier
16:33:47 <John_Boyer> Steven: Also, browser makers have a lot invested in CSS, but it's an old technology that needs to be replaced.
16:34:09 <John_Boyer> Jack: My problem with XBL is that any docs you can find on it as three levels of meta
16:34:32 <John_Boyer> Jack: I have the *feeling* I could do wonderful things with it, but it's hard to tell from the docs
16:34:50 <John_Boyer> Charlie:  I found the original XBL 1 docs to be compelling concrete stuff
16:35:20 <John_Boyer> Charlie: I thought this was the direction we were going to go with ubiquity
16:35:44 <John_Boyer> John: I thought MarkB said we would need to write an XBL implementation to get ubiquity to webkit anyway
16:36:05 <John_Boyer> Charlie: I found a javascript XBL implementation on the web.  will post link after meeting
16:36:33 <John_Boyer> Charlie: the above would be a great takeaway
16:37:02 <John_Boyer> Charlie: More narrowly on the XHTML2 and XForms topic, some will ask who is using it.
16:37:26 <John_Boyer> Charlie: list market segments
16:38:08 <John_Boyer> Charlie: enterprise space, open standard office document space, embedded device controller space (xerox), consumer space (yahoo mobile)
16:39:00 <John_Boyer> Charlie: consumer mainly mobile device space, which is important
16:39:45 <Zakim> -unl
16:40:33 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Yahoo is positioning itself as intermediary between content provider and consumer (they factor out the complexities of device adaptation)
16:41:08 <John_Boyer> Charlie: That's a high value service, and XForms is a key technology from an authoring point of view
16:41:34 <John_Boyer> Charlie: OK but lets move on.  We can address the topic of open versus closed browser
16:41:43 <John_Boyer> Topic: Jack update on SMIL
16:41:49 <John_Boyer> Jack: nothing in last two weeks
16:41:57 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Hey that's not 20 seconds
16:42:14 <John_Boyer> Jack: I ... haven't ... done ... anything ... in ... last ... two ... weeks
16:42:42 <John_Boyer> Charlie: will your UI elements be forms controls?
16:42:45 <John_Boyer> Jack: no
16:43:12 <John_Boyer> Jack: a control inherits its relevance from the model
16:43:32 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Yes but then that means when the control becomes relevant, it gets an event xforms-enabled, which can make it start a player
16:44:08 <John_Boyer> Jack: I was thinking that each object would have a relevance object, and the implementation of that object would depend on the language.
16:44:40 <John_Boyer> Charlie: But why do that?  The machinery is already there.  Why not just declare yourself to inherit the control behaviors from ubiquity and you're done
16:45:14 <John_Boyer> Jack: Have to think about it.  A practical reason is that I want to use the loader and decoration stuff from ubiquity, but right now I don't depend on the xforms implementation and I kind of like that
16:45:37 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Now we get to the point of asking how much backplane kool-aid Jack is willing to drink
16:46:17 <John_Boyer> Jack: Well, I kind of assume that the ubiquity substrate will be separated out from xforms, whereas relevance is xforms-specific
16:47:01 <John_Boyer> Charlie: But now we get to the question of what is xforms.  We did an analysis of xforms and found that a fair bit of it was more backplane-esque
16:47:58 <John_Boyer> Charlie: not suggesting you turn to XForms UI controls like select1, but the MVC lifecycle and the concept of eventing is more generally applicable than just xforms.
16:48:24 <John_Boyer> Charlie: single node binding, nodeset binding, model item property notifications should be spun as a backplane technology
16:50:45 <John_Boyer> John: So the nodeset binding is an example where we're saying that the backplane is more powerful than just the decorator mechanism
16:51:25 <John_Boyer> John: With nodeset binding, you have a declarative way of saying that more stuff needs to show up in the page dynamically, and then the decorator works with that to add the behaviors dynamically.
16:52:07 <John_Boyer> Jack: Want to make sure we factor out relevance to make it clear there are hooks.
16:52:49 <John_Boyer> Charlie: One packaging of SMIL as a MIP-aware control would be a good value-add, and could then help refine understanding of technical requirements for generalization
16:53:47 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Mark Birbeck would like to correspond with you, Jack, to talk about SMIL and its relationship to ubiquity. He sees it as a really good example to show the general approach we're pursuing.
16:53:52 <wiecha> http://www.xero.com/
16:53:58 <John_Boyer> Topic: Scenarios
16:54:44 <John_Boyer> A site that deals with data and sophisticated presentation of the same.
16:55:06 <Steven> It looks like an online Quicken
16:56:47 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Mark raised this site as a way to show richer graphics for ubiquity xforms, but it is also a good example of richer mediatypes and web services access
16:57:23 <John_Boyer> Charlie: So the scenario is a collaborative financial planning/tracking team room
16:57:45 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Multiple users members of a family, financial planner, backend services working together.
16:58:02 <John_Boyer> Charlie: Family has to make decisions, buy and sell
16:58:29 <John_Boyer> Steven: It's a really good scenario because lots of changes can occur declaratively based on what the user choose.
17:00:02 <John_Boyer> John: To use the buzzword, this is beginning to show the applicability of XForms to mashups.
17:00:25 <John_Boyer> John: A regular mashup has spaghetti wiring.  The architecture here is more hub and spokes
17:00:29 <Zakim> -Steven
17:00:32 <Zakim> -wiecha
17:00:33 <Zakim> -jackjansen
17:00:37 <Steven> Oh, regrets next week
17:00:41 <wiecha> k
17:00:41 <Steven> XHTML2 Vftf
17:00:45 <wiecha> np
17:00:50 <Steven> Also, 
17:00:59 <Steven> I'm talking at Mozcamp NL this week
17:01:01 <Steven> on XForms
17:01:06 <Steven> willmention Ubiquity
17:01:15 <wiecha> cool...check with mark, he has an interactive talk
17:01:20 <Steven> s/will/will /
17:01:21 <John_Boyer> John: Different mashup components communicate with each other but they do so through a central model that is responsible for sending synchronization events (change update events) to the other compoents
17:01:21 <wiecha> done in the browser with live ubiquity examples
17:01:42 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
17:01:43 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended
17:01:45 <Zakim> Attendees were wiecha, unl, John_Boyer, Steven, jackjansen
17:01:58 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-backplane-minutes.html John_Boyer
17:02:10 <Steven> good advice
17:02:12 <Steven> thanks
17:03:12 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
17:03:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/03-backplane-minutes.html John_Boyer
17:03:17 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, bye
17:03:17 <RRSAgent> I see no action items