as HTML 20:31:22 <jwatt> CM: we are agreed on just having plain text inside 20:34:05 <jwatt> ED: so sixth point: xml declaration encoding detection when the root element is <svg> 20:34:41 <jwatt> ... I was asked for numbers on the number of SVG documents that that have characters outside the win-1252 range 20:35:15 <jwatt> s/fourth point/fifth point/ 20:36:06 <jwatt> CM: so you're saying that people won't have the xml declaration if it's UTF-8 20:38:39 <ed_> <svg><b>foo 20:40:08 <ed_> <svg></svg>foo 20:41:02 <jwatt> ED: fifth point: non-SVG in SVG, when SVG is the root, but with our changes to say that there is no implied <html> and <body> inserted in - the non-SVG would break out back to the HTML, but there would then be no HTML to break to 20:41:10 <heycam> <svg><b>foo</b></svg> 20:41:13 <jwatt> CM: you can still have well formed XML 20:41:33 <ed_> s/fifth/seventh/ 20:41:53 <jwatt> ... but you'd still need somewhere for it to be a child of 20:44:04 <jwatt> CM: I think we're going to have to take some of these to the mailing list to discuss further 20:44:14 <jwatt> ... we should get other things done just now 20:57:23 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page 20:57:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2483 - Move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-03-09]. 20:58:14 <jwatt> CM: CSS transforms 20:58:21 <heycam> s/CM/Topic/ 20:59:14 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review 21:00:48 <heycam> DS: i'll send that in today 21:04:47 <Zakim> -jwatt 21:04:50 <Zakim> -heycam 21:04:51 <Zakim> -ed_ 21:04:53 <Zakim> -??P4 21:05:02 <Zakim> -Shepazu 21:05:04 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended 21:05:05 <Zakim> Attendees were ed_, heycam, jwatt, Shepazu 21:58:51 <heycam> heycam has joined #svg 21:59:57 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes 21:59:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-minutes.html heycam 22:00:24 <shepazu> heycam: I have a request for your syndication script 22:00:34 <heycam> then i can visit http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-minutes.html,text to get a text version of the minutes 22:00:52 <heycam> copy the contents of that into a mail to public-svg-wg, and also link to the html minutes page 22:01:00 <heycam> shepazu, yes? 22:02:54 <heycam> jwatt, one of the reasons we send a plain text copy of the minutes to the list is so that tracker can pick up on any ACTION-* etc. identifiers we mention 22:05:16 <shepazu> heycam: can you change the bit that says "News items syndicated from svg.org." to just say "News items syndicated from feeds." ? 22:06:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg 22:06:21 <shepazu> Im trying to remove all references to svg.org, since that guy is refusing to play ball with the domain name... no need to give him an incentive to sell it for a higher price 22:06:26 <heycam> yup ok 22:06:30 <shepazu> thanks 22:07:40 <anthony> how much does he want for it? 22:07:49 <shepazu> he won't say 22:07:58 <anthony> what a punk 22:08:08 <anthony> perhaps I should make him an offer he can't refuse... 22:08:39 <shepazu> but basically, he is being cagey about the whole thing... 22:09:07 <shepazu> oh, I guess the script should also remove links to svg.org, if possible 22:09:30 <heycam> that might prevent viewing of the whole story, though 22:09:47 <shepazu> actually... since svg.org is down (again), maybe we should just remove that syndication 22:10:04 <heycam> oh no wonder the script isn't finishing :) 22:10:22 <shepazu> yeah, we need to get planetsvg's feed going 22:10:24 <heycam> so do you want me to turn off the script? 22:10:33 <shepazu> yeah, I think that's best 22:11:00 <heycam> should i check in a version of /Graphics/SVG/Overview.html without the news items in it? 22:11:50 <shepazu> see, when there are links to svg.org on the w3c site, it drives up svg.org's pagerank, thus giving him a disincentive to be reasonable about passing it on to the community 22:12:00 <shepazu> since he could sell it 22:12:16 <shepazu> without that, it will drop again in a few months 22:12:31 <shepazu> heycam: yeah, go ahead 22:12:58 <shepazu> we'll start again when planetsvg is up with a feed 22:17:59 <heycam> committed 22:20:40 <shepazu> hmmm... looks pretty barren 22:20:51 <shepazu> maybe I'll manually add some news items 22:21:04 <heycam> yeah ok =) 22:21:15 <heycam> so just edit Overview.html directly and ignore the template file 22:21:56 <shepazu> ok 22:22:40 <shepazu> it's worth noting that SVG 1.2 Tiny was released, which was not in the most recent page 22:23:18 <heycam> yes that probably is noteworthy! 22:28:34 <heycam> interesting 22:28:58 <heycam> guess that means w3c does indeed have a high link status / pagerank / whatever 22:32:24 <shepazu> and that more people, or those with higher pagerank, are now linking to the w3c site 23:02:54 <shepazu> heycam: is your script still running? 23:03:02 <shepazu> because the feed is back 23:03:16 <heycam> o_O 23:03:18 <heycam> i thought i disabled it 23:04:40 <heycam> hmm 23:05:39 <heycam> it is commented out from my crontab 23:05:56 <heycam> i'll revert the page and see if it runs again (it used to scheduled to run at 24 mins past the hour) 23:07:36 <heycam> ok reverted; let's see what happens 23:17:06 <heycam> jwatt, http://www.w3.org/mid/20090302231137.GB17647@arc.mcc.id.au 23:31:02 <heycam> RRSAgent, bye 23:31:02 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-actions.rdf : 23:31:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page [1] 23:31:02 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-irc#T20-57-23

19:30:54 RRSAgent has joined #svg 19:30:54 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-irc 19:30:56 RRSAgent, make logs public 19:30:58 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 19:30:58 ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM already started 19:30:59 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 19:30:59 Date: 02 March 2009 19:31:21 jwatt has joined #svg 19:32:19 +??P2 19:32:26 Zakim, ??P2 is me 19:32:26 +ed_; got it 19:33:01 Zakim: ??P1 in me 19:33:14 Zakim, ??P1 in me 19:33:14 I don't understand '??P1 in me', jwatt 19:33:21 so sad 19:33:42 Zakim, code? 19:33:42 the conference code is 7841 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), heycam 19:35:00 +??P3 19:35:07 Zakim, ??P3 is me 19:35:07 +heycam; got it 19:35:27 Zakim, who is on the phone? 19:35:27 On the phone I see ??P1, ed_, heycam 19:36:04 Zakim, ??P1 is jwatt 19:36:04 +jwatt; got it 19:36:22 Chair: Cameron 19:36:25 Regrets: Chris 19:37:55 +Shepazu 19:38:30 ah, ta 19:45:53 Scribe: Jonathan 19:45:56 ScribeNick: jwatt 19:47:03 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0186.html 19:47:11 +??P4 19:47:20 Zakim, ??4 is me 19:47:20 sorry, anthony, I do not recognize a party named '??4' 19:47:29 topic: SVG in text/html 19:47:59 http://www.w3.org/mid/20090225231009.GD22306@arc.mcc.id.au 19:48:45 CM: I misread part of the text in HTML5 in that email 19:49:04 ... about the xmlns attribute 19:49:41 ... I thought you needed to include the xmlns attribute to make it conforming 19:50:04 ... but actually you can omit it, or else specify it with the correct value 19:50:15 ... only then is in conforming 19:50:23 s/in/is/ 19:51:38 s/then.*/then is it conforming/ 19:52:55 ... to be consistent with our comments on the xmlns:xlink, we would want it to be a parse error if omitted 19:53:04 JW: yeah, I think that would be better 19:53:10 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html_2009 19:53:18 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:SVG_in_text-html_2009 19:53:39 ED: I added a bunch of comments on the wiki talk page 19:53:48 ... one on the xlink 19:54:20 There are SVG images with xmlns:xlink="&ns_XLink;" commonly produced by Illustrator, do we want to break those? Relates to the point about xmlns:xlink and breaking on bogus values. 19:54:48 DS: but that's not bogus 19:55:00 ... if it treats it as a macro, the parser never sees that 19:55:35 ED: but you'd need to define it in the HTML code 19:55:48 DS: okay in this case it is bogus, right 19:56:23 CM: I don't think that newer versions of Illustrator do that 19:56:57 DS: I think that's right, it's an old practice 19:58:56 first point on http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:SVG_in_text-html_2009 20:04:00 ED: we may not need to ask for unquoted attributes etc. to be non-conforming, since authors could just validate their content as XHTML+SVG to get those warnings 20:05:04 DS: I don't think that solves the problem - what if their is some HTML that doesn't validate as XHTML but that has some SVG in it 20:05:32 ... it also implies two different tokenizing models 20:06:52 ... I guess I'm wordering since the tokenizer in HTML5 does case-folding, but I guess in XHTML it does not 20:06:56 CM: yes 20:09:12 DS: are we going to see the case where inline SVG doesn't work because of whether the HTML is served as text/html or XHTML? 20:10:44 CM: as long as you use the XML compatible syntax in HTML, I can't think of anything specific that would break like that 20:11:57 DS: if you're serving documents for IE as text/html, but serving to everyone else as XML, then you may not be able to predict that your content will work 20:13:02 ... maybe scripts will break due to changes to the HTML parts of the DOM tree? 20:14:16 ... I'm not sure this is something we can solve 20:14:38 ... we maybe need to just keep talking to the HTML WG about this 20:17:01 ED: so are we going to still ask for the xmlns attributes to be required for conformance? 20:17:08 DS: I think we should 20:18:00 ED: so moving on, should we go with all lowercase attributes in future? 20:18:10 DS: I think we should for two reasons 20:18:57 ... it makes writing SVG as XML or text/html easier 20:19:26 ... and since CSS and SVG are converging on a number of features, we should be as CSS friendly as we can 20:19:30 ED: yes 20:19:36 ... we should add that to our email 20:21:08 CM: for element names that don't clash, case insensitivity of CSS selectors shouldn't be a problem 20:22:03 ... I worry about consistency though - e.g. if we introduce a new filter primitive element 20:22:28 ... it would be a pain to remember which are lowercase and which are uppercase 20:23:27 DS: I think we should certainly do it for attributes 20:26:26 ED: so the third point 20:26:57 for casing elements, I don't have a strong opinion, but we should definitely avoid name clashes... even though namespaces can solve the technical part, it can still be confusing for authors 20:27:51 I also think that going forward, we should consider allowing geometric attributes to be styled (and animated) by CSS... things like x, y, width, and height 20:29:18 ED: ... 20:29:39 ED: fourth point: not parsing the contents of SVG as HTML 20:31:22 <jwatt> CM: we are agreed on just having plain text inside 20:34:05 <jwatt> ED: so sixth point: xml declaration encoding detection when the root element is <svg> 20:34:41 <jwatt> ... I was asked for numbers on the number of SVG documents that that have characters outside the win-1252 range 20:35:15 <jwatt> s/fourth point/fifth point/ 20:36:06 <jwatt> CM: so you're saying that people won't have the xml declaration if it's UTF-8 20:38:39 <ed_> <svg><b>foo 20:40:08 <ed_> <svg></svg>foo 20:41:02 <jwatt> ED: fifth point: non-SVG in SVG, when SVG is the root, but with our changes to say that there is no implied <html> and <body> inserted in - the non-SVG would break out back to the HTML, but there would then be no HTML to break to 20:41:10 <heycam> <svg><b>foo</b></svg> 20:41:13 <jwatt> CM: you can still have well formed XML 20:41:33 <ed_> s/fifth/seventh/ 20:41:53 <jwatt> ... but you'd still need somewhere for it to be a child of 20:44:04 <jwatt> CM: I think we're going to have to take some of these to the mailing list to discuss further 20:44:14 <jwatt> ... we should get other things done just now 20:57:23 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page 20:57:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2483 - Move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-03-09]. 20:58:14 <jwatt> CM: CSS transforms 20:58:21 <heycam> s/CM/Topic/ 20:59:14 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/CSS-Transforms-Review 21:00:48 <heycam> DS: i'll send that in today 21:04:47 <Zakim> -jwatt 21:04:50 <Zakim> -heycam 21:04:51 <Zakim> -ed_ 21:04:53 <Zakim> -??P4 21:05:02 <Zakim> -Shepazu 21:05:04 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended 21:05:05 <Zakim> Attendees were ed_, heycam, jwatt, Shepazu 21:58:51 <heycam> heycam has joined #svg 21:59:57 <heycam> RRSAgent, make minutes 21:59:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-minutes.html heycam 22:00:24 <shepazu> heycam: I have a request for your syndication script 22:00:34 <heycam> then i can visit http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-minutes.html,text to get a text version of the minutes 22:00:52 <heycam> copy the contents of that into a mail to public-svg-wg, and also link to the html minutes page 22:01:00 <heycam> shepazu, yes? 22:02:54 <heycam> jwatt, one of the reasons we send a plain text copy of the minutes to the list is so that tracker can pick up on any ACTION-* etc. identifiers we mention 22:05:16 <shepazu> heycam: can you change the bit that says "News items syndicated from svg.org." to just say "News items syndicated from feeds." ? 22:06:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg 22:06:21 <shepazu> Im trying to remove all references to svg.org, since that guy is refusing to play ball with the domain name... no need to give him an incentive to sell it for a higher price 22:06:26 <heycam> yup ok 22:06:30 <shepazu> thanks 22:07:40 <anthony> how much does he want for it? 22:07:49 <shepazu> he won't say 22:07:58 <anthony> what a punk 22:08:08 <anthony> perhaps I should make him an offer he can't refuse... 22:08:39 <shepazu> but basically, he is being cagey about the whole thing... 22:09:07 <shepazu> oh, I guess the script should also remove links to svg.org, if possible 22:09:30 <heycam> that might prevent viewing of the whole story, though 22:09:47 <shepazu> actually... since svg.org is down (again), maybe we should just remove that syndication 22:10:04 <heycam> oh no wonder the script isn't finishing :) 22:10:22 <shepazu> yeah, we need to get planetsvg's feed going 22:10:24 <heycam> so do you want me to turn off the script? 22:10:33 <shepazu> yeah, I think that's best 22:11:00 <heycam> should i check in a version of /Graphics/SVG/Overview.html without the news items in it? 22:11:50 <shepazu> see, when there are links to svg.org on the w3c site, it drives up svg.org's pagerank, thus giving him a disincentive to be reasonable about passing it on to the community 22:12:00 <shepazu> since he could sell it 22:12:16 <shepazu> without that, it will drop again in a few months 22:12:31 <shepazu> heycam: yeah, go ahead 22:12:58 <shepazu> we'll start again when planetsvg is up with a feed 22:17:59 <heycam> committed 22:20:40 <shepazu> hmmm... looks pretty barren 22:20:51 <shepazu> maybe I'll manually add some news items 22:21:04 <heycam> yeah ok =) 22:21:15 <heycam> so just edit Overview.html directly and ignore the template file 22:21:56 <shepazu> ok 22:22:40 <shepazu> it's worth noting that SVG 1.2 Tiny was released, which was not in the most recent page 22:23:18 <heycam> yes that probably is noteworthy! 22:28:34 <heycam> interesting 22:28:58 <heycam> guess that means w3c does indeed have a high link status / pagerank / whatever 22:32:24 <shepazu> and that more people, or those with higher pagerank, are now linking to the w3c site 23:02:54 <shepazu> heycam: is your script still running? 23:03:02 <shepazu> because the feed is back 23:03:16 <heycam> o_O 23:03:18 <heycam> i thought i disabled it 23:04:40 <heycam> hmm 23:05:39 <heycam> it is commented out from my crontab 23:05:56 <heycam> i'll revert the page and see if it runs again (it used to scheduled to run at 24 mins past the hour) 23:07:36 <heycam> ok reverted; let's see what happens 23:17:06 <heycam> jwatt, http://www.w3.org/mid/20090302231137.GB17647@arc.mcc.id.au 23:31:02 <heycam> RRSAgent, bye 23:31:02 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-actions.rdf : 23:31:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to move his seven points to the main text/html proposal wiki page [1] 23:31:02 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/03/02-svg-irc#T20-57-23