14:58:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
14:58:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-irc
14:58:49 <oedipus> regrets: Steven_Faulkner, Laura_Carlson
14:58:50 <janina> zakim, this will be pf
14:58:50 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:59:01 <Laura> Laura has joined #pf
14:59:05 <janina> zakim, call janina
14:59:05 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
14:59:06 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has now started
14:59:06 <Zakim> +Janina
14:59:19 <oedipus> chair: Janina_Sajka
14:59:29 <oedipus> Meeting: PF HTML Issues Caucus
14:59:40 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:41 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:41 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:58 <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aaaa
15:00:25 <oedipus> zakim, +1.218.340.aaaa is Laura_Carlson
15:00:25 <Zakim> +Laura_Carlson; got it
15:00:33 <oedipus> regrets- Laura_Carlson
15:00:40 <Zakim> +??P14
15:00:54 <Gez> Gez has joined #pf
15:01:15 <oedipus> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2009JanMar/0477.html
15:01:21 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:01:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-minutes.html oedipus
15:01:40 <oedipus> rrsagent, make logs public
15:01:53 <janina> Meeting: PF/HTML_Caucus telecon
15:01:54 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:01:54 <janina> agenda: this
15:01:54 <janina> agenda+ identify scribe
15:01:54 <janina> agenda+ WAI-CG on Alt: Continuing Discussion On "Alt=Needed"; Others?
15:01:54 <janina> agenda+ Question: Resolution on Alternative Text Alternatives
15:01:55 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings
15:01:58 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:02:07 <Zakim> +Matt
15:03:05 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:03:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Laura_Carlson, ??P14, Matt
15:03:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see Gez, Laura, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, oedipus, trackbot
15:03:45 <oedipus> zakim, ??P14 is Gez_Lemon
15:03:45 <Zakim> +Gez_Lemon; got it
15:04:49 <janina> zakim, who phone?
15:04:49 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, janina.
15:04:58 <janina> zakim, who is phone?
15:04:58 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, janina.
15:05:01 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:05:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Matt
15:05:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see Gez, Laura, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, oedipus, trackbot
15:05:07 <janina> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Matt
15:05:40 <Ben> Ben has joined #pf
15:06:16 <Ben> hi all, sorry to be late - what is the code?
15:06:24 <oedipus> zakim, passcode?
15:06:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 92473 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), oedipus
15:06:36 <Ben> thx
15:06:53 <Zakim> +??P1
15:07:05 <Ben> zakim, ??P1 is Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:07:05 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
15:07:11 <Ben> zakim, Gregg has Ben_Caldwell
15:07:14 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #pf
15:07:14 <Zakim> +Ben_Caldwell; got it
15:07:28 <oedipus> present+ Ben_Caldwell
15:07:34 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-minutes.html oedipus
15:08:05 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:08:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Matt, Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:08:08 <Zakim> Gregg_Vanderheiden has Ben_Caldwell
15:08:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see Joshue, Ben, Gez, Laura, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, oedipus, trackbot
15:08:47 <Zakim> +??P2
15:09:15 <oedipus> zakim, +??P2 is Cynthia_Shelly
15:09:15 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2'
15:09:20 <oedipus> zakim, ??P2 is Cynthia_Shelly
15:09:20 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
15:09:29 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:09:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Laura_Carlson, Gez_Lemon, Matt, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Cynthia_Shelly
15:09:31 <Zakim> Gregg_Vanderheiden has Ben_Caldwell
15:09:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see Joshue, Ben, Gez, Laura, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, oedipus, trackbot
15:10:00 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:10:06 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
15:10:13 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #pf
15:10:17 <cyns> cyns has joined #pf
15:10:33 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5
15:10:36 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/Caucus
15:10:45 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/MediaSpecificElements
15:10:53 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute
15:11:03 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/DescriptorRequirements
15:11:12 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AlternateProposal
15:11:56 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:11:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-minutes.html oedipus
15:12:09 <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Review
15:13:09 <oedipus> JS: most of hour will be dedicated to how to handle markup where the user intentionally ignored prompting and did not bother to put in an alt value; therefore, what does the authoring tool that cares put in for alt?
15:13:21 <oedipus> JS: alt should have an appropriate string
15:13:37 <oedipus> JS: if HTML5 incorporates ARIA can use describedby
15:13:56 <oedipus> JS: couple of proposals on table -- GV and JR proposal and GJR proposal
15:14:19 <oedipus> JS: need to decide which tack to take -- need resolution, but see how discussion goes
15:14:36 <oedipus> TOPIC: GreggV and Jan Proposal
15:15:10 <oedipus> GV: 1 preamble comment: never turn in a proposal you are never going to get; write it so that you will get it; 
15:15:51 <oedipus> GV: shouldn't be coming out of here with something we agree on, but doesn't have chance of adaptation; need to do something others can live with; if don't, need to have compelling reason and a fallback position
15:16:00 <oedipus> GV: 2 proposals:
15:16:32 <oedipus> GV: both start with HTML requires a terse descriptor and that it tries to not get into accessibility too far
15:17:38 <oedipus> GV: one approach: anything a person cannot validly label as presentational needs to have an alt value assigned for it; if people don't add alt - autoinsert "altneeded" - reasons: page creator may not know about alt; most authors interested in validity not conformance
15:17:57 <oedipus> GV: validity doesn't get into content - gets into syntax; my proposal allows both
15:19:27 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #pf
15:19:30 <oedipus> GV: second approach - no altneeded; if do not know what alt is, then put something in that is a placeholder, but in HTML5 doc says "this would yield valid HTML5, but would not meet spirit of alt or WCAG 2.0; valid for syntax; currently HTML5 implies that there are specific things to do with alt as HTML5-appropriate thing to do
15:20:01 <oedipus> GV: talking to Jan, he felt that didn't like second approach -- did not give tools easy way to find those things, unless tokenize them, which we don't want to do
15:20:08 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
15:20:14 <oedipus> GV: tokenizing - may not be easy to discover
15:20:22 <oedipus> GV: needs rules
15:20:33 <oedipus> JS: confused: first option is "altneeded", what is 2nd?
15:21:17 <oedipus> GV: what currently propose in HTML5 - in bulk situations, put some "bulk" tag in (should be unique), but HTML5 spec says specifically though this will validate, this is a misuse of the tag -- valid, but not conforming
15:21:25 <oedipus> GV: would not meet wcag 2.0
15:21:36 <oedipus> GV: state in standards that this practice will violate wcag 2.0
15:21:52 <oedipus> GV: don't want HTML5 to counter what is contained and advised in WCAG 2.0
15:21:55 <janina> q?
15:21:59 <janina> q+
15:22:19 <cyns> q+ to ask if we've decided against something like <img type="photo"/>
15:22:33 <oedipus> JS: concerned that we are conflating a couple of things here; want to unravel skein
15:23:36 <oedipus> JS: focus on strings that are automatically provided -- do not meet accessibility needs; aren't those quantitative judgements when value provided for alt; what do we do when nothing is done -- if not "altneeded", what happens
15:23:37 <oedipus> q+
15:24:31 <oedipus> GV: do have failure for placeholder text; not text alternative (can stand in for image); has to have same purpose -- "photo1" "photo2" strings are meaningless; does the image need alt at all?
15:25:06 <oedipus> GV: auto-generation: could have  PNG with data in PNG, tool could yank out meta-data and substitute for PNG
15:25:27 <oedipus> GV: concern: what is put in alt fails WCAG because matches a failure in WCAG to provide alternate and same functionality
15:26:04 <oedipus> GV: part of problem: 90% of web not valid is the claim, but number of photo aggregator sites relatively small
15:26:27 <janina> q?
15:26:29 <oedipus> GV: treating alt as reason pages are invalid due to a class of pages, this is a problem; double fallicy
15:26:54 <oedipus> GV: need to address means so that not every page has to follow same rules in cookie cutter fashion
15:27:38 <oedipus> GV: second proposal same as extant in HTML5, with caveat that one is creating valid content, but content that fails for conformance and WCAG
15:27:46 <oedipus> TOPIC: GJR Proposal
15:28:14 <oedipus> GJR: when an author declares an image, the tool auto-inserts either role="image" or type="image"
15:28:28 <oedipus> GJR: when role="image" or type="image" then ALT is required
15:28:53 <oedipus> GJR: only case alt is not required is when the image declaration is CLEARLY marked as prsentational using either the role or type attribute
15:28:59 <janina> q?
15:29:37 <oedipus> GV: if write by hand, put in IMG without role or type is alt required?
15:29:48 <oedipus> GV: if put in alt="photo1" that is alt
15:30:26 <oedipus> GJR: the only circumstances in which alt="" would be allowed is when the author or authoring tool explicitly changes the role or type value from "image" to "presentation"
15:30:43 <oedipus> GV: if alt text is "photo1"
15:30:50 <cyns> is anyone else having the sound cut out?
15:31:26 <oedipus> GJR: bit of a red herring we know that we can only give advice to authors on proper use of alt, we don't have policing powers, but we do have opportunity to ban tokens
15:31:37 <oedipus> JS: HTML5 spec - validation; WCAG conformance
15:31:41 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:31:50 <greggvanderheiden> ack janina
15:31:58 <oedipus> CS: my original question was to ask if GJR on table; 
15:32:29 <greggvanderheiden> ack cyns
15:32:29 <Zakim> cyns, you wanted to ask if we've decided against something like <img type="photo"/>
15:32:29 <oedipus> CS: some qualms about WCAG value wording; like GJR's proposal -- works better with tools at hand;
15:32:39 <oedipus> CS: attribute that describes what kind of image it is?
15:33:22 <oedipus> GJR: i purposefully left room for that - by proposing both role and type; if we make type generic, then we can pre-define roles such as "button" "link" etc.
15:34:02 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute
15:35:08 <oedipus> CS: don't like using role for photo - to me smacks of user interface role; like means of saying this is photo, this is a screenshot; author doesn't know what alt is, can still give info about image that AT or UA could use to help user in absence of alt, while not messing with meaning of alt
15:35:11 <oedipus> q?
15:35:30 <oedipus> CS: need role (aria-role) and type (what kind of image it is)
15:35:54 <oedipus> ack oe
15:37:00 <oedipus> GV: trying to examine this, the third proposal - concern we had in WCAG - already requires alt, they want conformance/validity up; if alt is required, they want to be able to say there is something easily auto-inserted otherwise alt won't be used and page will not validate
15:37:57 <oedipus> GV: need to work with HTML5 to find a way for page to be valid, but spec to say "this will pass a validator, but is not garunteed to conform to spec" -- tokens can be recognized to provide function; meets the syntax of the law, but not the semantics of the law
15:39:25 <janina> q?
15:39:46 <oedipus> GV: can do all sorts of things that aren't according to spec that validator will validate; if goal is to have pages test valid, concern and problem with our proposals is that if someone puts "suff" in alt, will pass both proposal 2 and 3; no way to test but for human to review every one; altneeded approach is a way that enables author to test valid, but leaves a flag behind that indicates something needs to be  semantically added to IMG to meet spirit of HTML5 and
15:40:22 <oedipus> GV: altneeded tells author - go back and fill in alt values; syntax is correct, have to fill in content (proposal 1)
15:41:04 <janina> q?
15:41:08 <oedipus> GV: second and third - state alt required, but need to say if put anything in alt that is not a true alternate text that gives same function as image, would test valid, but would not meet the HTML5 spec or WCAG 2.0
15:41:12 <oedipus> ack gregg
15:41:31 <oedipus> GV: validity and following the spec is not the same; validator validating syntax, not spec itself
15:42:38 <Laura> Laura has joined #pf
15:42:47 <oedipus> JS: seems to me that really don't want HTML5 giving guidance on use of alt text -- when w3c speaks of accessibility, should reference WAI documents; HTML5 should reference WCAG to state what is a valid alternative representation; want them to follow w3c process, where issue has been addressed by experts in field;
15:43:09 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:44:12 <oedipus> JS: can never completely get to something that can disambiguate pure syntax from semantics; probably always way to insert garbage; storyline that moves forward is alt="needed" to disambiguate cases of alt="" being used know, and keep that PURELY presentational; support properly provided strings, but also value in marker that says "this is needed here"
15:44:21 <oedipus> JS: having that clearly in markup would be very useful
15:44:41 <janina> q?
15:44:44 <oedipus> JS: if try to put into "role" or "type" or logic how to attribute image, not as clean -- not sure progress over HTML5
15:44:54 <oedipus> s/over HTML5/over HTML4x
15:46:14 <oedipus> GV: 2 things: 1) refer to WCAG for proper guidance on providing alt - there are several ways of doing text alternatives that are valid, name them, and then "see WCAG 2.0 for an explanation of what a textual equivalent is and what is presentational
15:47:09 <oedipus> GV: concern: will feel compelled to go beyond that and claim when have flickr type interface need something; even if abuse alt tag, will still validate, but HTML5 shouldn't suggest the abuse
15:47:24 <oedipus> GV: if could do that, role="image" and others can be done; 
15:47:30 <janina> q?
15:47:33 <oedipus> GV: skirt the issue of placeholder text
15:47:59 <oedipus> GV: if use placeholder text, would still validate, but not satisfy WCAG; shouldn't say placeholder text is ok
15:48:27 <oedipus> GV: if require alt, placeholder has to be in spec; killer for us; why need alt="needed" and not an abuse of tag
15:49:06 <oedipus> JS: seems to me from negotiating PoV, we would cede a decade of W3C process which states that accessibility is the balliwick of WAI
15:50:21 <oedipus> JS: not up to individual WG to do that on its own -- WAI created specifically to bring in expertise so that accessibility and interoperability built-into w3c specs; don't want WGs coming up with accessiblity claims without consultation with WAI;
15:50:48 <Joshue> +1 to Janina
15:51:12 <cyns> +1 to Janina
15:51:54 <janina> q?
15:51:57 <oedipus> JS: not so troubled by HTML WG reaction as by what is end point?  no reason to change our responsibility; HTML WG requirement is an alt="needed" -- improve textual equivalents thorugh ARIA -- allows us to do additional enchancements to alt, but don't need automated way to put in placeholder text to achive validity;
15:52:00 <oedipus> ack gregg
15:52:26 <oedipus> GV: what is it exactly you are proposing JS?
15:52:28 <oedipus> q+
15:52:58 <MichaelC> q+ to say "altneeded" is for cooperative authoring tools. Uncooperative ones may still use placeholders or other less-than-helpful things to achieve validity. We should expect that.
15:52:58 <oedipus> GV: HTML5 WG may say in response to "refer to WCAG 2.0 for textual alternative" - may counter that alt isn't just for accessibility
15:53:44 <cyns> q+ 
15:53:47 <oedipus> JS: saying same thing on "summary" for TABLE -- have mechanisms - if want to use curb-cuts for bikes and scooters, see what works then let us build upon the mechanism and improve it
15:54:13 <oedipus> GV: want to talk about alt text  -- can't say WAI has exclusive last word on what constitutes alt text because not just about accessibility
15:55:09 <oedipus> GV: what if put in "for appropriate uses of alt to meet the needs of people with a disability, consult WCAG 2.0" -- could then give bad advice for million other things, but if want to use appropriately for accessibility refer to WCAG 2.0
15:55:19 <oedipus> GJR: very very very opposed to this line of reasoning
15:56:13 <oedipus> GV: all sorts of valid uses for alt other than accessibility; if have curb-cut guideline saying "curb cut only needs to be 18 inches wide to work for bikes, luggage, and skateboards -- see WCAG on accomodation of wheelchairs
15:56:30 <oedipus> GV: even if doesn't work for wheelchairs, still important
15:56:57 <oedipus> GV: seems to me that a reference to WCAG would help ensure that there is a solid cross reference with WCAG
15:57:07 <oedipus> JS: will become less interesting to fight this battle\
15:57:44 <oedipus> q+ to say i am very opposed to the model of "accessibility and only accessibility is the WAI's purview"
15:57:53 <Joshue> I think WCAG should just concern itself with accessiblity.
15:57:55 <cyns> I have a hard stop in 3 minutes.  can I jump que?
15:57:57 <oedipus> JS: not get too entangled with other uses
15:58:24 <oedipus> ack me
15:58:24 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say i am very opposed to the model of "accessibility and only accessibility is the WAI's purview"
15:58:37 <Joshue> Issues of Universality and multi purposing content for other things like SEO etc should not dilute good accessibility.
15:58:37 <greggvanderheiden> PROPOSAL:     HTML5 states that "there are several ways of providing text alternatives (ALT,  LabelledBy, DescribedBy, etc).   One of these is required for Validity.    For guidance as to what constitutes a text alternative for the purpose of disability access see WCAG 2.0.        PROPOSAL part 2:    That use of role = presentation be taken from ARIA Spec .  The ALT ="" be the same as "presentation"
15:58:45 <oedipus> next meeting is Wednesday at 1930h UTC
15:58:53 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-minutes.html oedipus
15:59:05 <cyns> Alt is always for image replacement, summary is a little squshier
15:59:08 <Joshue> Especially, good existing methods/elements/attributes IMO
15:59:31 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
15:59:34 <oedipus> GV: would like people to consider proposal dropped into IRC -- clearly state use of alt for accessibility covered by WCAG; may meet our essential needs and something they can live with
15:59:43 <oedipus> JS: has to be an important part of what we sayh to them
15:59:57 <Zakim> -Matt
15:59:58 <Zakim> -Gez_Lemon
15:59:58 <oedipus> ADJOURN
15:59:59 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
16:00:01 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:00:03 <Zakim> -Janina
16:00:06 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:00:18 <oedipus> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:00:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Laura_Carlson
16:00:25 <Zakim> -Laura_Carlson
16:00:26 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML)10:00AM has ended
16:00:28 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina, Gregory_Rosmaita, Laura_Carlson, Matt, Gez_Lemon, Ben_Caldwell, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper
16:00:29 <oedipus> zakim, please part
16:00:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pf
16:00:34 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:00:38 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop log
16:00:38 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop log', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:00:44 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
16:01:27 <oedipus> s/sayh to them/say to them
16:01:31 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:01:33 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
16:02:01 <oedipus> present+ Joshue_O_Connor
16:02:04 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
16:02:11 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:02:14 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
16:02:39 <oedipus> present+ Gregg_V, Ben_Caldwell
16:02:41 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop
16:02:45 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/27-pf-minutes.html oedipus
16:02:47 <oedipus> rrsagent, stop