IRC log of css on 2009-02-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:30 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #css

16:53:30 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-irc

16:53:39 [plinss]

zakim, this will be style

16:53:40 [Zakim]

ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

16:55:41 [Zakim]

Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started

16:55:43 [Zakim]

+ +1.253.307.aaaa

16:56:40 [Zakim]

- +1.253.307.aaaa

16:56:41 [Zakim]

Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended

16:56:41 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.253.307.aaaa

16:57:43 [Zakim]

Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started

16:57:45 [Zakim]

+ +1.858.354.aaaa

16:57:56 [plinss]

zakim, +1.858.354 is me

16:57:57 [Zakim]

+plinss; got it

16:58:07 [Zakim]

+dsinger

16:58:08 [Zakim]

-dsinger

16:58:09 [Zakim]

+dsinger

16:58:14 [Zakim]

+ +1.253.307.aabb

16:58:27 [dsinger]

dsinger has joined #css

16:58:46 [plinss]

zakim, +1.253.307 is arronei

16:58:46 [Zakim]

+arronei; got it

16:58:47 [dsinger]

Zakim, mute me

16:58:48 [Zakim]

dsinger should now be muted

16:58:58 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

16:59:12 [dsinger]

Good morning ... On bus as usual

16:59:24 [plinss]

morning David

17:01:52 [plinss]

zakim, [microsoft] has sylvaing

17:01:52 [Zakim]

+sylvaing; got it

17:02:05 [dsinger]

Zakim, who is here?

17:02:05 [Zakim]

On the phone I see plinss, dsinger (muted), arronei, [Microsoft]

17:02:07 [Zakim]

[Microsoft] has sylvaing

17:02:11 [Zakim]

On IRC I see dsinger, RRSAgent, Zakim, arronei, fantasai, plinss_, shepazu, jdaggett, plinss, Bert, krijnh, trackbot, Hixie

17:02:45 [dsinger]

Ah, do we have a chair?

17:02:51 [plinss]

yes

17:03:20 [dsinger]

Cool

17:03:28 [ChrisL]

ChrisL has joined #css

17:03:50 [dbaron]

dbaron has joined #css

17:04:27 [dsinger]

I will have to stop at 9:55 btw

17:04:30 [Zakim]

+ChrisL

17:04:55 [sylvaing]

sylvaing has joined #css

17:05:16 [Zakim]

+Bert

17:05:26 [Zakim]

+David_Baron

17:06:17 [Zakim]

+??P10

17:07:25 [dsinger]

P10 must be fantasai?

17:07:49 [ChrisL]

zakim, ??p10 is probably fantasai

17:07:49 [Zakim]

+fantasai?; got it

17:08:48 [ChrisL]

scribe: chris

17:08:49 [Zakim]

+howcome

17:08:53 [ChrisL]

scribenick: chrisl

17:09:05 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, here

17:09:05 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-irc#T17-09-05

17:09:19 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make logs public

17:09:26 [ChrisL]

topic: @import

17:09:31 [plinss]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0119.html

17:10:36 [ChrisL]

cl: sent some email about multiple @rules clamouring to be 'first'

17:10:41 [ChrisL]

zakim, who is speaking?

17:10:52 [Zakim]

ChrisL, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (64%), ChrisL (63%), Bert (4%), howcome (5%)

17:11:20 [sylvaing]

Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing

17:11:20 [Zakim]

sylvaing was already listed in [Microsoft], sylvaing

17:12:02 [ChrisL]

sg: need to distinguish functionaly valid from syntactically valid

17:12:20 [ChrisL]

hl: we should use the canonoical CSS syntax

17:12:35 [ChrisL]

pl: agree with chris point but its not related to the current issue

17:12:53 [ChrisL]

... so the current case seems like a problem

17:12:54 [Zakim]

+Melinda_Grant

17:13:20 [ChrisL]

hl; problematic, use the eternal syntax not the css 1, 2 or 3 syntax

17:13:50 [ChrisL]

db: so implementations that dont implement that currently will need to do so, to see if some junk fits the eternal synbtax

17:13:58 [melinda]

melinda has joined #CSS

17:14:23 [ChrisL]

ee: we don't wat to cut off extensibility

17:14:44 [ChrisL]

sl: the specific test case in anne's emailis gramatically correct, but implementations differ

17:15:23 [ChrisL]

ae: in fact it is invalid due to leading numeric

17:16:14 [ChrisL]

pl: would not allow a valid rule, but would allow known or unknown @rules.

17:16:19 [ChrisL]

hl: yes

17:16:28 [ChrisL]

cl: i agree

17:16:52 [alexmog]

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17:16:52 [ChrisL]

so in the anne test case, its not an @rule.

17:17:23 [ChrisL]

sl: spec talks about valid statements, not @rules specifically. but this is not a valid statement

17:17:39 [ChrisL]

hl: bert?

17:18:00 [ChrisL]

bb: don't want it to load, as the rule ight be valid in the future. need to stop it loading

17:18:12 [ChrisL]

sl: butbrowsers do load these currently

17:18:17 [ChrisL]

hl: they should not

17:18:41 [ChrisL]

bb: some day we may invent an @rule that has to come before an @import

17:19:09 [ChrisL]

cl: @charset isn't an @rule

17:19:17 [ChrisL]

bb: no, its special cased in the grammar

17:19:19 [Zakim]

-arronei

17:19:39 [ChrisL]

ae: yes but its reparsed as an @rule once the charset is detected

17:19:45 [ChrisL]

bb: no

17:20:30 [ChrisL]

sl: spec says @import cannot come after a valid statement. but this is not a valid sytatement.

17:20:44 [ChrisL]

bb: its correct

17:20:55 [ChrisL]

bb: its a normal token,

17:21:15 [ChrisL]

sl: which meaning of valid do we mean here. succesfully parsed, or known and can be applied?

17:21:19 [ChrisL]

pl: the former

17:22:03 [ChrisL]

hl: we cn say there should be nothing ahead of @import except @charset. removes need to discuss 'valid'

17:22:28 [ChrisL]

db: has anyone looked at whatwebkit does? do not want to get into non-interoperable behaviour

17:22:47 [ChrisL]

.. what exactly does webkit to to accept or reject this @rule?

17:23:21 [ChrisL]

hl: if we can agree on a simple workable solution we can test it against implementations

17:23:29 [fantasai]

db: The solution we use in Gecko is, if it parses into something that we know about, then we drop following @import rules

17:23:47 [ChrisL]

db: in gecko, if the rule is dropped then we continue to process the @rule

17:23:59 [ChrisL]

hl; easy to flag if something has been dropped

17:24:23 [ChrisL]

db: an extra semicolon at end of time - would that cause the @import to be dropped?

17:24:26 [ChrisL]

hl: no

17:24:28 [dsinger]

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17:24:40 [Zakim]

+[Apple]

17:24:50 [Zakim]

-dsinger

17:24:56 [dsinger]

zakim, [apple] has dsinger

17:24:56 [Zakim]

+dsinger; got it

17:25:03 [ChrisL]

ee: do you drop @import after an invalid selector? eg two commas

17:25:11 [fantasai]

or an unknown pseudo

17:25:17 [ChrisL]

db: yes so following @import would be allowed

17:25:34 [ChrisL]

bb: suggest we allow empty stements, space, cdo cdc, nothing else

17:25:40 [fantasai]

s/allowed/loaded/

17:25:51 [ChrisL]

s/stements/statements/

17:26:13 [ChrisL]

plh: its reasonable but not forward compatible

17:26:51 [ChrisL]

db: properties not an issue as they are inside the rules, . error in selctor forces rule to be dropped

17:26:58 [Lachy]

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17:27:06 [ChrisL]

bb; concerned about things that could be valid in the future

17:27:44 [ChrisL]

db: spec id clear on rules being ignored. if spec must be ignored it can't trigger other things

17:27:57 [ChrisL]

cl: so ignored means treat as if it was never there

17:28:27 [ChrisL]

db: we have that issue witha lot of things. dont want future stylesheets to break completely

17:28:53 [ChrisL]

pl: issue is that if the rule becomes valid tomorrow, it stops the @import loading

17:29:37 [ChrisL]

sl: this can happen today, ie8 does not support :: for example so following import will load but later, or in other browsers, it will be skipped

17:30:52 [ChrisL]

cl: how much existing content would break if the spec said nothing before @import?

17:31:00 [ChrisL]

hl: little to none

17:31:12 [ChrisL]

pl: would require changes in implementations though

17:31:45 [ChrisL]

ee: any @rules that are dropped should be allowed before @import

17:32:20 [ChrisL]

db: media queries changed syntax f @import. its not valid css2. so does non-media-queries implementsation drop?

17:32:41 [szilles]

szilles has joined #css

17:32:52 [dbaron]

example was, given two rules: @import url(foo) (min-width:800px); @import url(bar);

17:32:53 [ChrisL]

pl: there are implementations that do not support media queries

17:33:03 [dbaron]

implementations without media queries skip the first; with this change would we also require them to skip the second?

17:33:20 [fantasai]

I strongly believe that we should allow dropped @rules before @import

17:33:35 [ChrisL]

ee: we should allow any (currently invalid) @rule before @import

17:33:44 [ChrisL]

sl: invalid or unknown?

17:33:48 [ChrisL]

cl: unknown

17:33:54 [ChrisL]

hl: can live with

17:34:31 [ChrisL]

ee: and also as bert said, empty statements and cdo cdc

17:35:05 [ChrisL]

pl; odd that current @rules would block @import

17:35:17 [ChrisL]

db: thats ok and we want it for forward compat

17:35:43 [ChrisL]

ee: adding @rule before @import is pretty rare. less of an issue than withselectors

17:36:14 [dbaron]

so if you only allow unknown @-rules and don't allow anything that's not an @-rule, don't you end up distinguishing between:

17:36:20 [dbaron]

@new-rule {}

17:36:23 [ChrisL]

pl: issue is known @rules not supported by older browsers

17:36:24 [dbaron]

@new-rule {}; /* extra semicolon at end */

17:36:55 [ChrisL]

pl: covered by emptystatement rule

17:37:12 [ChrisL]

db; we have a concept of empty statement?

17:37:22 [ChrisL]

bb: would need to be defined in spec, but its clear

17:37:30 [ChrisL]

pl; i detect consensus

17:39:20 [plinss]

the current proposal is: disallow any statements before @import except: empty statements, comment tokens, and unknown, but wel-formed @rules

17:39:46 [ChrisL]

ee: unknown or invalid

17:39:54 [fantasai]

@foo;

17:39:57 [ChrisL]

sl: it says unknown but wel formed

17:39:59 [fantasai]

@import;

17:40:14 [fantasai]

@namespace *;

17:40:30 [ChrisL]

bb: grammar does not seem to allow empty statements

17:40:40 [ChrisL]

ee: anything that has been ignored

17:40:54 [dbaron]

yeah, maybe the extra-semicolon thing causes the next selector/rule to be ignored at present

17:41:10 [fantasai]

that starts with an @sign

17:41:14 [ChrisL]

s/anything/anything starting @/

17:41:17 [fantasai]

@1;

17:41:21 [fantasai]

@import "style.css";

17:41:45 [ChrisL]

ee: @1; does not parse as an at-rule

17:41:57 [ChrisL]

bb; neither a selector nor an @rule

17:42:14 [ChrisL]

sl; has to parse as an @rule first, then the rule is applied

17:42:34 [ChrisL]

pl: so @1; would block @import

17:42:36 [ChrisL]

cl: yes

17:43:22 [ChrisL]

(no objection heard)

17:43:25 [dbaron]

I think it would be good to see the proposal actually written up.

17:43:45 [dbaron]

This is rather hard to follow with lots of abstract statements.

17:43:57 [fantasai]

I agree

17:44:07 [ChrisL]

dbaron - yes, but if we resolve it then someone can get an action to write it up in detail

17:44:34 [ChrisL]

bb: (error recovery - scribe missed)

17:44:34 [dbaron]

I think we should action somebody to write it up without resolving.

17:45:06 [ChrisL]

trackbot, status

17:45:49 [ChrisL]

action; sylvian to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules

17:45:58 [ChrisL]

action: sylvian to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules

17:45:58 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - sylvian

17:46:00 [Bert]

(Issue 24 is about recovering from invalid tokens when inside a selector. The ; in @1; is such an invalid token. What to do? Skip to the next {}?)

17:46:03 [fantasai]

Sylvain

17:46:15 [ChrisL]

action: sylvain to write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules

17:46:16 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-123 - Write up the proposal on @import and unknown well formed @rules [on Sylvain Galineau - due 2009-03-04].

17:46:38 [fantasai]

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-102

17:46:40 [fantasai]

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-106

17:46:55 [ChrisL]

topic: issue-24

17:46:57 [plinss]

http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-24

17:46:59 [ChrisL]

issue-24?

17:46:59 [trackbot]

ISSUE-24 -- Does the 'background' shorthand needs both clip and origin? -- CLOSED

17:46:59 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/24

17:47:19 [ChrisL]

pl: not that one

17:47:41 [ChrisL]

oops,css2.1 issue not tracker issue. ifnore above

17:48:05 [fantasai]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Nov/0509.html

17:48:46 [ChrisL]

ee: we wanted to requie matching brackets, the change we made to fix this solves selectors but adds a new problem for

17:48:56 [ChrisL]

... declarations

17:49:32 [ChrisL]

... makes the trap point for an invalid declaration to be astatement not a declaration

17:50:02 [ChrisL]

... so a rue with an invalid statement will be completely ignored instead of justthat statement

17:50:04 [fantasai]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Dec/0091.html

17:50:53 [ChrisL]

ee: so we need to go back and replace with 'statement ordeclaration'. or duplicate the rule, one for malformed statement and one for malformed declarations

17:51:23 [ChrisL]

bb: statement or declaration is probably correct. problem is the section is called malformed declarations

17:51:29 [ChrisL]

ee: change all occurences

17:51:41 [ChrisL]

bb: would work

17:52:08 [ChrisL]

bb: so if you are in a declaration, skip to end of declaration

17:52:15 [ChrisL]

bb: yes, think its correct

17:52:52 [ChrisL]

cl: so there are two proposals

17:53:30 [ChrisL]

ee: scope of changes is only one paragraph

17:54:14 [ChrisL]

bb; edge case, when inside a selector, if the token in error is at or before the start of the selector. what are you 'in'

17:54:19 [ChrisL]

ee: a statement

17:54:25 [ChrisL]

bb: what kind?

17:54:36 [ChrisL]

ee: you don;t know at that point

17:54:48 [ChrisL]

bb: so ignore that singe token?

17:55:03 [ChrisL]

ee: treat it as a selector, dont ignore that token.

17:55:19 [ChrisL]

bb: talking of tokens thatare disallowed by the grammar

17:55:35 [ChrisL]

bb: colon is allowed, better example ....

17:55:47 [ChrisL]

... closing brace for example

17:56:04 [ChrisL]

ee: if its not an @rule, treat as aselector

17:56:19 [ChrisL]

bb: fine with me. deals with future expansion

17:56:53 [ChrisL]

pl: other opinions?

17:57:16 [ChrisL]

bb: hard to follow without examples

17:57:21 [Zakim]

-[Apple]

17:57:40 [dsinger]

bye...another meeting, sorry

17:57:48 [ChrisL]

pl: can we resolve here or do we need more discussion?

17:58:40 [dbaron]

(Confusion about what we would be resolving on.)

17:59:38 [ChrisL]

action: bert to propose specific wording on complete text for what is inserted and deleted for bracket/quote parsing

17:59:39 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-124 - Propose specific wording on complete text for what is inserted and deleted for bracket/quote parsing [on Bert Bos - due 2009-03-04].

17:59:49 [ChrisL]

ee: is it solved with two separate rules?

17:59:53 [ChrisL]

bb: not sure

18:00:25 [ChrisL]

pl: why dont you two work together onthat action so it can be closed quickly

18:00:35 [ChrisL]

zakim, list attendees

18:00:36 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, dsinger, +1.253.307.aabb, arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai?, howcome, Melinda_Grant

18:00:40 [ChrisL]

chair: Peter

18:00:57 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:00:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL

18:02:18 [Zakim]

-howcome

18:02:23 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

18:02:24 [Zakim]

-Melinda_Grant

18:02:24 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

18:02:26 [Zakim]

-plinss

18:02:27 [Zakim]

-David_Baron

18:02:29 [Zakim]

-Bert

18:02:33 [Zakim]

-fantasai?

18:02:35 [Zakim]

Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended

18:02:36 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.858.354.aaaa, plinss, dsinger, +1.253.307.aabb, arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai?, howcome, Melinda_Grant

18:02:45 [ChrisL]

Meeting: CSS telcon

18:02:49 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:02:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL

18:03:00 [dbaron]

I assume no telecon next week since it'll be 2-3am between the first and second day of the f2f meeting

18:03:07 [ChrisL]

zakim, where is 858?

18:03:07 [Zakim]

North American dialing code 1.858 is California

18:03:20 [ChrisL]

zakim, where is 253?

18:03:20 [Zakim]

North American dialing code 1.253 is Washington

18:03:43 [arronei]

253 was arronei

18:03:43 [dbaron]

858 is San Diego

18:03:43 [ChrisL]

dbaron, that seems a safe assumption

18:03:48 [plinss]

chris: 858 was me

18:03:56 [dbaron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_code_858

18:04:19 [ChrisL]

ok, they are both listed explicitly in the attendance list already

18:04:47 [ChrisL]

Present: plinss, dsinger, arronei, sylvaing, ChrisL, Bert, David_Baron, fantasai, howcome, Melinda_Grant

18:04:53 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:04:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL

18:15:55 [ChrisL]

regrets: szilles, daniel, emily, molly, anne

18:15:57 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:15:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL

18:16:55 [ChrisL]

s/ifnore/ignore/

18:17:09 [ChrisL]

s/bb;/bb:/g

18:17:36 [ChrisL]

s/sl;/sl:/g

18:17:53 [ChrisL]

s/pl;/pl:/g

18:18:07 [ChrisL]

s/db;/db:/g

18:18:25 [ChrisL]

s/hl;/hl:/g

18:18:41 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:18:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/25-css-minutes.html ChrisL

18:20:55 [sylvaing]

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