IRC log of rif on 2009-02-24
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:37:10 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rif
- 15:37:10 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-rif-irc
- 15:37:15 [ChrisW]
- zakim, this will be rif
- 15:37:15 [Zakim]
- ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
- 15:37:22 [ChrisW]
- Chair: Chris Welty
- 15:37:37 [ChrisW]
- Meeting: RIF Telecon 24-Feb-2008
- 15:37:57 [ChrisW]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/0117.html
- 15:38:10 [ChrisW]
- ChrisW has changed the topic to: 24 Feb RIF Telecon, Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/0117.html
- 15:38:23 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make miniutes
- 15:38:23 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'make miniutes', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 15:38:26 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make minute
- 15:38:26 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minute', ChrisW. Try /msg RRSAgent help
- 15:38:32 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:38:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
- 15:38:45 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 15:39:05 [ChrisW]
- zakim, clear agenda
- 15:39:05 [Zakim]
- agenda cleared
- 15:39:10 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ Admin
- 15:39:15 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ Liason
- 15:39:19 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ F2F13
- 15:39:23 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ Action Review
- 15:39:30 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ ISSUE-93
- 15:39:32 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ ISSUE-92
- 15:39:34 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ ISSUE-80
- 15:39:43 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ Safeness/Termination
- 15:39:49 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ Lists...
- 15:39:54 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ Test Cases
- 15:39:58 [ChrisW]
- agenda+ AOB
- 15:40:06 [ChrisW]
- zakim, next item
- 15:40:06 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
- 15:42:54 [ChrisW]
- Regrets: DaveReynolds HassanAitKaci
- 15:55:42 [csma]
- csma has joined #rif
- 16:01:29 [Zakim]
- SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
- 16:01:37 [Zakim]
- +??P11
- 16:01:43 [csma]
- zakim, ??P11 is me
- 16:01:43 [Zakim]
- +csma; got it
- 16:01:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]
- LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
- 16:01:58 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 16:02:06 [ChrisW]
- zakim, ibm is temporarily me
- 16:02:06 [Zakim]
- +ChrisW; got it
- 16:02:19 [Gary_Hallmark]
- Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
- 16:02:19 [Zakim]
- +josb
- 16:02:40 [josb]
- josb has joined #rif
- 16:02:57 [Zakim]
- +Gary
- 16:03:05 [Zakim]
- +Leora_Morgenstern
- 16:03:32 [Harold]
- Harold has joined #rif
- 16:04:46 [josb]
- I don't see many regrets
- 16:04:47 [Zakim]
- +[NRCC]
- 16:04:50 [josb]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/TeleconRegrets
- 16:05:14 [Harold]
- zakim, [NRCC] is me
- 16:05:14 [Zakim]
- +Harold; got it
- 16:06:22 [ChrisW]
- Scribe: Harold
- 16:06:28 [ChrisW]
- scribenick: Harold
- 16:06:52 [ChrisW]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/att-0106/RIF_Telecon_17_Feb_2009.htm
- 16:07:00 [ChrisW]
- PROPOSED: accept minutes of 17 Feb telecon
- 16:07:08 [ChrisW]
- RESOLVED: accept minutes of 17 Feb telecon
- 16:07:26 [ChrisW]
- zakim, next item
- 16:07:26 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
- 16:07:37 [AxelPolleres]
- AxelPolleres has joined #rif
- 16:08:12 [Zakim]
- +??P29
- 16:08:36 [ChrisW]
- Scribe: Axel Polleres
- 16:08:38 [AxelPolleres]
- scribe: AxelPolleres
- 16:08:41 [csma]
- zakim, mute me
- 16:08:41 [Zakim]
- csma should now be muted
- 16:08:42 [ChrisW]
- scribenick: AxelPolleres
- 16:09:23 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: jos, any news from OWL datatypes?
- 16:09:45 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: many people in OWL wg in favor of disjointness. not too much new.
- 16:10:50 [ChrisW]
- zakim, next item
- 16:10:50 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "F2F13" taken up [from ChrisW]
- 16:11:06 [AxelPolleres]
- axel: SPARQL telecons just started today, will be 1hr before RIF, axel might be late.
- 16:11:36 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: next rif f2f ind cambridge, MA April 17-18, we need a web page.
- 16:11:57 [csma]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/F2F13
- 16:12:18 [ChrisW]
- zakim, next item
- 16:12:18 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
- 16:12:23 [AxelPolleres]
- ... http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/F2F13 needs to be filled.
- 16:13:09 [josb]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/SWC#Importing_RDF_and_OWL_in_RIF
- 16:13:16 [csma]
- zakim, unmute me
- 16:13:17 [Zakim]
- csma should no longer be muted
- 16:13:18 [AxelPolleres]
- ACTION 707 - completed by jos.
- 16:13:18 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - 707
- 16:13:48 [AxelPolleres]
- josw: action 707 is completed.
- 16:14:04 [AxelPolleres]
- axel: action 704 completed.
- 16:15:32 [AxelPolleres]
- axel: action 703 pending review.
- 16:15:40 [josb]
- can we have this discussion w/o DaveR?
- 16:15:54 [AxelPolleres]
- csma: goes into safeness discussion later on.
- 16:16:17 [AxelPolleres]
- ... next action goes in Pres Syn discussion next week.
- 16:16:33 [AxelPolleres]
- leora: my "whiteboard" action continued.
- 16:16:49 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: shall we drop paul vincent's action?
- 16:17:07 [AxelPolleres]
- csma: paul wanted to keeep it.... will remind him.
- 16:17:22 [Zakim]
- + +1.631.833.aaaa
- 16:17:27 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: let's go for actions with pending review.
- 16:17:28 [Michael_Kifer]
- Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
- 16:18:08 [AxelPolleres]
- ... action 653 can be closed.
- 16:18:13 [ChrisW]
- zakim, next item
- 16:18:13 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "ISSUE-93" taken up [from ChrisW]
- 16:18:28 [AxelPolleres]
- topic: ISSUE-93
- 16:18:58 [ChrisW]
- zakim, aaaa is Michael_Kifer
- 16:18:58 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Kifer; got it
- 16:18:58 [csma]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/93
- 16:19:06 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: the issue is: should datatype iris map to datatypes themselves?
- 16:19:47 [ChrisW]
- If a constant c \in Const is an IRI constant "d"^^rif:iri and d is a
- 16:19:47 [ChrisW]
- datatype identifier, i.e., d \in DTS, then I_C(d) is the datatype [2]
- 16:19:47 [ChrisW]
- identified by d.
- 16:20:42 [josb]
- q+
- 16:20:51 [AxelPolleres]
- michael: I think this change is bad, because of now unforseeable consequences and lots of implied changes.
- 16:21:11 [AxelPolleres]
- jos:
- 16:21:26 [josb]
- isLiteralOfType/2
- 16:21:59 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: now that we have predicates which refer to datatypes, what datatype should the argument of the second argument be? (definition of semantics now somewhat unelegant)
- 16:22:33 [AxelPolleres]
- ... literal-equals, is-literal-of-type, etc.
- 16:22:39 [josb]
- xsd:int=xsd:string
- 16:22:40 [csma]
- q+
- 16:22:46 [ChrisW]
- ack josb
- 16:22:51 [josb]
- isLiteralOfType("a", xsd:int)
- 16:23:43 [AxelPolleres]
- ... a strange consequence is that if you write xsd:int = xsd:string that could have weird consequences, if we equate datatypes and their uris, that would fix the semantics and make that inconsistent.
- 16:24:33 [AxelPolleres]
- ... michael seemed to hav doubts for symbol spaces being sets of constants not of objects.
- 16:25:21 [AxelPolleres]
- michael: "1"^^ xs:string would not become the same as "1"^^xs:int if xs:int=xs:string at the moment.
- 16:25:27 [csma]
- zakim, mute me
- 16:25:27 [Zakim]
- csma should now be muted
- 16:26:36 [AxelPolleres]
- ... because IRIs as datatypes are not IRI constants. Jos' proposal would equate the DT-IRIs with sets of constants, doesn't make sense to me.
- 16:26:56 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: this is not by accident. I propose to fix the definition of datatypes.
- 16:27:04 [ChrisW]
- isLiteralOfType("a", "xsd:string"^^rif:iri)
- 16:27:39 [josb]
- xsd:int=xsd:string
- 16:27:42 [AxelPolleres]
- (or isLiteralOfType("a", xsd:string) )
- 16:27:50 [josb]
- isLiteralOfType("a", "xsd:int"^^rif:iri)
- 16:28:12 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 16:29:05 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#pred:isLiteralOfType
- 16:29:54 [csma]
- ack Axel
- 16:34:10 [josb]
- xsd:int=xsd:string
- 16:34:56 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: the second argument should be a datatype, i.e. the iris of datatypes should have a fixed interpreetation.
- 16:35:29 [AxelPolleres]
- michael: this is what I wanted to avoid.
- 16:36:09 [AxelPolleres]
- ... I suggest to have the second argumant of isLiteralOfType being literals, I consider the current def wrong.
- 16:36:26 [AxelPolleres]
- ... e.g. use xs:string.
- 16:36:34 [csma]
- k csma
- 16:36:39 [csma]
- ack csma
- 16:36:59 [josb]
- so it boils down to who finds what more elegant
- 16:37:01 [AxelPolleres]
- csma: what is the definition in XML schema?
- 16:37:30 [AxelPolleres]
- ... we cannot change the definiition of XML schema datatypes.
- 16:37:46 [csma]
- isLiteralOfType(xsd:string, rif:iri)
- 16:38:17 [josb]
- xsd:string="a"
- 16:38:22 [josb]
- rif:iri=xsd:string
- 16:38:34 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: we don't change XML schema DTs, but only talk about rif:iri here.
- 16:38:56 [csma]
- zakim, mute me
- 16:38:58 [Zakim]
- csma should now be muted
- 16:39:17 [AxelPolleres]
- michael: I sent a proposal per mail (please paste link)
- 16:39:27 [MoZ]
- MoZ has joined #rif
- 16:39:39 [josb]
- s/sent/can send/
- 16:39:50 [AxelPolleres]
- ... basically, second argument should be a (string) literal.
- 16:40:54 [AxelPolleres]
- What's wrong about keeping it like we have it (side question)?
- 16:41:24 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 16:41:27 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 16:43:41 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: why not do it in the same way as RDF and OWL (where URIs denote datatypes)?
- 16:44:03 [AxelPolleres]
- ... we don't want xs:int, etc. to denote anything.
- 16:44:51 [AxelPolleres]
- p("1"^^a) :- a=xs:int, p(1)
- 16:45:15 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: maybe we should move on...
- 16:45:20 [ChrisW]
- q?
- 16:45:24 [ChrisW]
- ack axel
- 16:45:41 [josb]
- q+
- 16:47:00 [ChrisW]
- ack jos
- 16:47:04 [ChrisW]
- zakim, next item
- 16:47:04 [Zakim]
- agendum 6. "ISSUE-92" taken up [from ChrisW]
- 16:47:18 [csma]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/92
- 16:47:25 [AxelPolleres]
- josb: both michael and I don't like the current definition, I personally would prefer even michael's solution to the current definition.
- 16:49:06 [josb]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Functions_and_Predicates_on_Strings
- 16:49:12 [AxelPolleres]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Functions_and_Predicates_on_Strings
- 16:50:18 [josb]
- q+
- 16:50:53 [ChrisW]
- ack j
- 16:50:55 [josb]
- we allow the equivalent forms External( func:concat( str1, str2) ) and External( func:concat( str1 str2 str3 ) )
- 16:55:50 [josb]
- In my view it does change the bld syntax
- 16:59:48 [Harold]
- Polyadic syntax for associative binary functions should be not a problem.
- 17:01:16 [josb]
- q+
- 17:02:23 [AxelPolleres]
- axel, michael, jos: discussing multiple arity of external functions such as func:concat.
- 17:03:06 [csma]
- zakim, mute me
- 17:03:06 [Zakim]
- csma was already muted, csma
- 17:03:25 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: originally the requirement for fixed arity and disjoint names came from the same restriction in FO-logic definitions.
- 17:03:58 [csma]
- q+
- 17:04:04 [josb]
- q-
- 17:04:30 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: the quickest way to go is to leave it the way to go is to leave it the way it is and reword DTB just to reflect that this is just for explanatory purposes in DTB.
- 17:05:12 [csma]
- ack csma
- 17:05:16 [AxelPolleres]
- josb: quite sure that there are no problems if we do it for external preds/funcs, but not sure about logical preds/funcs.
- 17:05:46 [AxelPolleres]
- csma: do not remember implementation discussion at this point.
- 17:06:04 [Michael_Kifer]
- zakim, who is on the phone
- 17:06:05 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Michael_Kifer
- 17:06:11 [Michael_Kifer]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 17:06:14 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, josb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, AxelPolleres, Michael_Kifer
- 17:06:30 [AxelPolleres]
- ... we are bound to find that problem (of oveload) many times, maybe we should fix it once and for all.
- 17:06:56 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: is there anyone on the phone objecting arbitrary arity for anything?
- 17:07:25 [AxelPolleres]
- ... (anything means logical and external), implementations seem to support it perfectly well.
- 17:07:42 [AxelPolleres]
- ... noboddy objects, something to think about.
- 17:07:45 [ChrisW]
- zakim, next item
- 17:07:46 [Zakim]
- agendum 8. "Safeness/Termination" taken up [from ChrisW]
- 17:08:15 [AxelPolleres]
- axel: agree that we can't leave it like that.
- 17:08:28 [josb]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Core#Safeness
- 17:08:41 [AxelPolleres]
- s/it/the description of multiple arity/
- 17:09:24 [ChrisW]
- zakim, list agenda
- 17:09:24 [Zakim]
- I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
- 17:09:25 [Zakim]
- 8. Safeness/Termination [from ChrisW]
- 17:09:25 [Zakim]
- 9. Lists... [from ChrisW]
- 17:09:26 [Zakim]
- 10. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
- 17:09:26 [Zakim]
- 11. AOB [from ChrisW]
- 17:09:47 [AxelPolleres]
- csma: we should discuss issue-80 first.
- 17:09:58 [ChrisW]
- TOPIC: Issue-80
- 17:10:10 [csma]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/80
- 17:10:29 [csma]
- zakim, mute me
- 17:10:29 [Zakim]
- csma should now be muted
- 17:10:47 [AxelPolleres]
- last mail on that: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Feb/0072.html
- 17:11:31 [josb]
- q+
- 17:12:27 [ChrisW]
- ack j
- 17:15:22 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: generic comparison should only work if datatypes are the same.
- 17:15:57 [josb]
- my feeling: not have generic comparison
- 17:16:00 [AxelPolleres]
- axel: but if not, should they be false or undefined? (currently false)
- 17:16:24 [csma]
- q+
- 17:16:29 [josb]
- if we have them: get rid of specific ones and make sure the generic ones behave exactly like the specific ones do now
- 17:16:30 [csma]
- ack csma
- 17:17:32 [AxelPolleres]
- csma: do we have an equality predicate that does not do propagation?
- 17:17:43 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: yes "="
- 17:18:09 [AxelPolleres]
- csma: that makes is-literal-equal redundant?
- 17:18:42 [AxelPolleres]
- "Editor's Note: pred:literal-equal seems to be partially redundant w.r.t the usual equality in BLD."
- 17:18:44 [csma]
- zakim, mute me
- 17:18:44 [Zakim]
- csma should now be muted
- 17:20:51 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: our current equality and neither is-literal-equal does not cover "=" in Xpath/XQuery, but the specific ones do
- 17:23:55 [AxelPolleres]
- jos, it is not talking about 1.000 = 1.00, is it?
- 17:24:09 [AxelPolleres]
- jos: equality is not identity in XML schema.
- 17:24:13 [ChrisW]
- action: jos to find an example of equality between datatypes within the same value space that is not identity
- 17:24:13 [trackbot]
- Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
- 17:24:13 [trackbot]
- Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
- 17:24:19 [AxelPolleres]
- ... I will draft an example.
- 17:24:19 [ChrisW]
- action: josb to find an example of equality between datatypes within the same value space that is not identity
- 17:24:19 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-710 - Find an example of equality between datatypes within the same value space that is not identity [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2009-03-03].
- 17:24:57 [josb]
- yes
- 17:25:27 [AxelPolleres]
- chrisw: I have no problem with literal-equal being redundant, any problems with literal-not-equal.
- 17:25:40 [AxelPolleres]
- josb: I would rather want to drop them both.
- 17:25:46 [AxelPolleres]
- q+
- 17:26:06 [ChrisW]
- ack ax
- 17:28:15 [Zakim]
- -Harold
- 17:28:20 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Kifer
- 17:28:21 [Zakim]
- -Leora_Morgenstern
- 17:28:21 [Zakim]
- -Gary
- 17:28:24 [Zakim]
- -josb
- 17:28:26 [ChrisW]
- zakim, list attendees
- 17:28:26 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been csma, ChrisW, josb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, AxelPolleres, +1.631.833.aaaa, Michael_Kifer
- 17:28:27 [AxelPolleres]
- axel: can probably dial in next week earlier, but not all of the time.
- 17:28:32 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make logs public
- 17:28:42 [ChrisW]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:28:42 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
- 17:28:59 [Zakim]
- -AxelPolleres
- 17:29:02 [csma]
- zakim, unmute me
- 17:29:02 [Zakim]
- csma should no longer be muted
- 17:29:06 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is on the phone
- 17:29:08 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 17:29:10 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who is on the phone', ChrisW
- 17:29:11 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see csma, ChrisW
- 17:31:18 [sandro]
- Yes, Chris?
- 17:31:38 [ChrisW]
- when can you do a rif chairs meeting
- 17:32:00 [sandro]
- tomorrow 8am is okay
- 17:32:07 [ChrisW]
- great, ttyt
- 17:32:15 [csma]
- ok for me too
- 17:32:27 [Zakim]
- -ChrisW
- 17:32:28 [sandro]
- okay
- 17:32:29 [Zakim]
- -csma
- 17:32:30 [Zakim]
- SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
- 17:32:32 [Zakim]
- Attendees were csma, ChrisW, josb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, AxelPolleres, +1.631.833.aaaa, Michael_Kifer
- 17:32:49 [csma]
- talk to you tomorrow, 8am/2pm, Sandro
- 17:33:56 [sandro]
- yep
- 18:04:16 [sandro]
- sandro has joined #rif
- 18:36:15 [csma]
- csma has left #rif
- 19:25:15 [MoZ]
- MoZ has joined #rif