IRC log of rif on 2009-02-20
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:59:41 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rif
- 15:59:41 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/20-rif-irc
- 16:00:43 [Zakim]
- Team_(rif)15:49Z has now started
- 16:00:45 [Zakim]
- +[NRCC]
- 16:00:54 [ChrisW]
- ChrisW has joined #rif
- 16:01:11 [ChrisW]
- zakim, what is the code?
- 16:01:11 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 7431 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisW
- 16:01:13 [Harold]
- zakim, [NRCC] is me
- 16:01:13 [Zakim]
- +Harold; got it
- 16:01:16 [ChrisW]
- brt
- 16:01:34 [Zakim]
- +Sandro
- 16:01:36 [Zakim]
- -Sandro
- 16:01:36 [Zakim]
- +Sandro
- 16:02:58 [sandro]
- http://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/webcam
- 16:03:46 [ChrisW]
- havin gphone probs today
- 16:05:02 [Zakim]
- +ChrisW
- 16:05:15 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:05:15 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Harold, Sandro, ChrisW
- 16:05:16 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see ChrisW, RRSAgent, Harold, MoZ, sandro, trackbot, Zakim
- 16:06:51 [ChrisW]
- BAREWORDS: a "c identifier"
- 16:09:53 [sandro]
- (* "http://sample.org"^^rif:iri pd[dc:publisher -> "http://www.w3.org/"^^rif:iri
- 16:10:08 [sandro]
- (* "http://sample.org"^^rif:iri _pd[dc:publisher -> "http://www.w3.org/"^^rif:iri
- 16:10:50 [sandro]
- Harold: yeah, I agree, I think the draft has a syntax error, and it should be "_pd" or anonymous
- 16:11:07 [sandro]
- _[ foo->bar ]
- 16:11:43 [sandro]
- standalone "_" for anonymous terms, useful for frames.
- 16:14:29 [sandro]
- Addon: local declaration so you don't need _
- 16:14:39 [sandro]
- addon: don't need ? when you quantify a variable.
- 16:17:27 [sandro]
- p(a b (c+d) e(c+d) f (c+d)) q(a b)
- 16:17:39 [sandro]
- p(a, b, (c+d), e(c+d), f, (c+d)); q(a b)
- 16:17:43 [sandro]
- p(a, b, (c+d), e(c+d), f, (c+d)); q(a, b)
- 16:17:57 [sandro]
- p(a, b, (c+d), e(c+d), f, (c+d)). q(a, b).
- 16:18:27 [sandro]
- separators vs space-sensitive
- 16:21:47 [sandro]
- Harold: I would not be opposed to introducing separators, making it more prolog-like
- 16:22:30 [sandro]
- Harold: I prefer separators to paying attention to whitespace before lparen.
- 16:23:37 [Harold]
- f (c+d) should not mean f +(c d)
- 16:25:25 [ChrisW]
- _f(_c+_d)
- 16:25:38 [ChrisW]
- _f(_c+ _d)
- 16:26:33 [sandro]
- _f(my:foo+my:bar)
- 16:27:13 [sandro]
- _f(my:foo + my:bar)
- 16:27:45 [sandro]
- Option 1: tell people to use lots of whitespace
- 16:28:09 [sandro]
- Option 2: restrict the characters in QNAMES/CURIES/URIS -- tell people to to use <...> when necessary
- 16:28:49 [Harold]
- Prefix(cpt http://example.com/concepts#)
- 16:30:13 [Harold]
- _f(17-12)
- 16:30:51 [ChrisW]
- _f(_17-12)
- 16:30:53 [sandro]
- General-sense: Option 1
- 16:31:34 [sandro]
- _f(_17-12) has no subtraction in it.
- 16:31:57 [ChrisW]
- ' + '
- 16:32:21 [Harold]
- _f(?XX-12)
- 16:32:47 [sandro]
- when it's ambiguous we assume it's it an identifier? VS Always require space.....
- 16:33:28 [Harold]
- _f(?XX - 12)
- 16:33:37 [sandro]
- sense: require space always, because otherwise it's too easy to get it wrong.
- 16:33:54 [sandro]
- sense: require space around infix operators always, because otherwise it's too easy to get it wrong.
- 16:34:28 [sandro]
- "foo \" bar"
- 16:34:41 [sandro]
- "foo \u0034 bar"
- 16:34:56 [sandro]
- # foo
- 16:35:05 [sandro]
- /* foo */
- 16:36:12 [sandro]
- (* _some_new_foo[dc:comment->"My Comment"] *)
- 16:36:18 [sandro]
- #My Comment
- 16:37:29 [Harold]
- We suggest to use Dublin Core, RDFS, and OWL properties for metadata, along the lines of Section 7.1 of [OWL-Reference]-- specifically owl:versionInfo, rdfs:label, rdfs:comment, rdfs:seeAlso, rdfs:isDefinedBy, dc:creator, dc:description, dc:date, and foaf:maker.
- 16:38:14 [sandro]
- p(a,b) :-
- 16:38:14 [sandro]
- q(a) # not really
- 16:38:53 [sandro]
- p(a,b) :-
- 16:38:53 [sandro]
- q(a, b, # is this about b? or c?
- 16:38:53 [sandro]
- c)
- 16:39:41 [sandro]
- problems -- you have to invent object identifiers (could us "_")
- 16:40:07 [Harold]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#RIF-BLD_Annotations_in_the_Presentation_Syntax
- 16:40:31 [sandro]
- (* ... *) a+b the meta is about a
- 16:40:59 [ChrisW]
- ( (* comment *) FORALL p :- b )
- 16:41:26 [sandro]
- chris: I don't like comments that just go away in processing. so comments should be metadata.
- 16:42:54 [ChrisW]
- (
- 16:42:57 [ChrisW]
- #comment
- 16:43:01 [ChrisW]
- forall ...
- 16:43:02 [ChrisW]
- )
- 16:43:17 [sandro]
- # comment about rule
- 16:43:17 [sandro]
- p(a,b) :- # comment about p(a,b)
- 16:43:17 [sandro]
- q(a, b, # comment about b
- 16:43:17 [sandro]
- c) # comment about q(a,b,c)
- 16:44:07 [sandro]
- #-comments are syntactic sugar for dc:comment metadata
- 16:44:22 [sandro]
- on an anonymous local comment
- 16:44:24 [sandro]
- rdfs:comment
- 16:45:22 [sandro]
- 12.34
- 16:45:52 [ChrisW]
- 1.23
- 16:46:11 [sandro]
- 1.23e+00
- 16:46:50 [sandro]
- xsd:double — IEEE 64-bit floating-point
- 16:47:33 [sandro]
- Valid values include: 123.456, +1234.456, -1.2344e56, -.45E-6, INF, -INF, or NaN. according to http://books.xmlschemata.org/relaxng/ch19-77065.html
- 16:48:03 [sandro]
- 123.456 could also be a decimal.
- 16:48:13 [sandro]
- -1.2344e56 could also be a float
- 16:48:57 [sandro]
- chris: 1.23 is a decimal. 1.23e is a double. for float using ^^
- 16:49:05 [sandro]
- okay.
- 16:49:39 [sandro]
- 12.3d for decimal?
- 16:51:23 [sandro]
- sandro: throw an error for 12.3 saying it's ambiguous.
- 16:51:54 [ChrisW]
- double values have a lexical representation consisting of a mantissa followed, optionally, by the character "E" or "e", followed by an exponent. The exponent ·must· be an integer. The mantissa must be a decimal number. The representations for exponent and mantissa must follow the lexical rules for integer and decimal. If the "E" or "e" and the following exponent are omitted, an exponent value of 0 is assumed.
- 16:52:51 [ChrisW]
- The canonical representation for double is defined by prohibiting certain options from the Lexical representation (§3.2.5.1). Specifically, the exponent must be indicated by "E". Leading zeroes and the preceding optional "+" sign are prohibited in the exponent. If the exponent is zero, it must be indicated by "E0". For the mantissa, the preceding optional "+" sign is prohibited and the decimal point is required. Leading and trailing zeroes are prohibited subject
- 16:54:32 [sandro]
- sandro: require trailing d,e,f (but look elsewhere for ideas, too.)
- 16:55:20 [Harold]
- (Sandro's 3-letter subalphabet)
- 16:55:20 [sandro]
- p(b=1)
- 16:55:46 [sandro]
- p(b < 1)
- 16:57:30 [sandro]
- NAU syntax....?
- 16:57:35 [sandro]
- p(b->1)
- 16:57:40 [sandro]
- p(b::1)
- 16:57:44 [sandro]
- p(b :: 1)
- 16:57:45 [sandro]
- p(b : 1)
- 16:57:49 [sandro]
- p(b := 1)
- 16:58:10 [sandro]
- p(b -> 1, c->c)
- 16:58:18 [sandro]
- p(b -> 1, c -> c)
- 16:59:06 [sandro]
- p{ b: 1}
- 16:59:38 [sandro]
- should NAU use the same operator as frames?
- 16:59:47 [sandro]
- chris: no no no!
- 17:00:19 [sandro]
- chris: eliminate arrow. (use only for implication)
- 17:01:00 [sandro]
- p(b := 1, f[ color :: red ])
- 17:01:15 [sandro]
- p(b := 1, bb := f[ color :: red ])
- 17:01:26 [sandro]
- chris: that would be fine.
- 17:01:46 [sandro]
- chris: lisp used a parens pair.
- 17:02:10 [sandro]
- p( (b 1) (bb f[ color :: red ]) )
- 17:02:29 [Harold]
- ':=' looks too much like re-assignment.
- 17:03:15 [Harold]
- b := 1 b := 2 vs. b := 2 b := 1
- 17:03:59 [sandro]
- chris: I'm okay with: p(b : 1, bb := f[ color :: red ])
- 17:04:28 [sandro]
- p(b : 1, bb := f[ color : red ])
- 17:04:42 [sandro]
- p(b : 1, bb : f[ color : red ])
- 17:05:27 [sandro]
- chris: I'm okay with that.
- 17:06:03 [sandro]
- a->b
- 17:06:08 [sandro]
- a- > b
- 17:06:45 [sandro]
- p(b : 1, bb : f[ color red, name "sandro"])
- 17:07:14 [sandro]
- chris: interesting....
- 17:07:49 [sandro]
- p(b : 1, bb : f[ color red])
- 17:07:52 [sandro]
- p(b : 1, bb : f[color red])
- 17:08:18 [sandro]
- p(b : 1, bb : f[ color red; name "sandro"])
- 17:08:30 [sandro]
- (that's n3 semicolon)
- 17:09:13 [sandro]
- chris: for me, the semicolon is too strong a break (think java/C)
- 17:10:45 [sandro]
- chris: my favorite is colon
- 17:10:58 [sandro]
- chris: my favorite is colon (for both NAU and frames.)
- 17:11:25 [sandro]
- p(b : 1, bb : f[color : red, name : "sandro"])
- 17:12:01 [sandro]
- p(b :: 1, bb :: f[color :: red, name :: "sandro"])
- 17:12:29 [sandro]
- harold: nicer
- 17:12:34 [sandro]
- chris: fine with me.
- 17:12:48 [Harold]
- double colon for both NAUs and Frame slots.
- 17:12:58 [sandro]
- sandro: I prefer colon, but.....
- 17:13:45 [sandro]
- trying without spaces: p(b::1, bb::f[color::red, name::"sandro"])
- 17:14:12 [sandro]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 17:14:12 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/20-rif-irc#T17-14-12
- 17:14:26 [sandro]
- agreed: double-colon for NAU and frames.
- 17:15:55 [sandro]
- if p(a, b, f[foo::bar]) then ....
- 17:16:36 [sandro]
- if p(a,b,XX) and XX[foo::bar] then ....
- 17:16:50 [sandro]
- if p(a,b,f) and f[foo::bar] then ....
- 17:17:39 [sandro]
- agreed: they're not in bld, but they're nice.... high priority extension
- 17:18:11 [Harold]
- ATOMIC ::= IRIMETA? (Atom | Equal | Member | Subclass | Frame)
- 17:18:36 [sandro]
- chris: my removed?
- 17:18:54 [sandro]
- harold: we had a syntactic de-sugaring process.
- 17:19:02 [sandro]
- sandro: I think we thought it was too complicated....
- 17:20:30 [sandro]
- sandro:be careful about anonymous frames....
- 17:20:46 [Zakim]
- -ChrisW
- 17:27:22 [Harold]
- An Import indicates the location of a document to be imported and an optional profile.
- 17:28:42 [sandro]
- issue-67?
- 17:28:42 [trackbot]
- ISSUE-67 -- need string predicates string-less-than, etc. (waiting on PS) -- OPEN
- 17:28:42 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/67
- 17:29:48 [sandro]
- if a > b then
- 17:30:42 [sandro]
- I think it ought to have an all-types-compare builtin....
- 17:33:47 [sandro]
- This isn't a PS quesiton is it? How to you convert from a language with polymorphic operators? write an expression with lots of guards?
- 17:34:16 [Zakim]
- -Sandro
- 17:34:19 [Zakim]
- -Harold
- 17:34:20 [Zakim]
- Team_(rif)15:49Z has ended
- 17:34:21 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Harold, Sandro, ChrisW
- 17:36:23 [sandro]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 17:36:23 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2009/02/20-rif-irc#T17-36-23
- 17:36:46 [sandro]
- RRSAgent, make record public