17:58:56 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:58:57 logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-ua-irc 17:58:58 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:58:58 Zakim has joined #ua 17:59:00 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:59:00 ok, trackbot, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started 17:59:01 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:59:01 Date: 22 January 2009 17:59:09 zakim, code? 17:59:09 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 17:59:25 +jeanne 18:00:10 JR has joined #ua 18:01:41 +??P6 18:01:49 zakim, ??P6 is really JR 18:01:50 +JR; got it 18:03:56 -jeanne 18:04:58 +jeanne 18:06:13 regrets+ judy 18:06:22 AllanJ has joined #ua 18:06:54 +jallan 18:07:15 regrets+ Simon 18:10:54 survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090120/results 18:12:50 present: Jan, Jeanne, Jim, Kelly 18:13:17 chair: Jim 18:13:42 KFord has joined #ua 18:13:51 Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? 18:13:58 Agenda+ review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090120/ 18:14:13 Agenda+ Glossary proposal 18:14:23 zakim, take up item 2 18:14:23 agendum 2. "review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090120/" taken up [from jeanne] 18:15:57 JR: Recommends changes from survey response: Moving "end user" for grammatical reasons 18:16:18 ... also suggesting "user agent" can include the additional functionality provided by particular plug-ins, extensions, and assistive technologies. 18:16:21 mth has joined #ua 18:17:58 +1 moving 'end user' 18:18:18 JR: extensions and plug-ins by themselves are not user agents. 18:18:36 A user agent is any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates END USER interaction with Web content. 18:18:36 The definition applies to Web browsers and media players, whether or not they are Web-based. In addition, at the option of the Conformance Claimant, "user agent" can include the additional functionality provided by particular plug-ins, extensions, and assistive technologies. 18:21:43 JS: so Firefox could say even though we don't provide heading navigation, we conform with use of a screen reader 18:22:27 ...it gives them an out and put the onus the AT 18:22:38 JS: including assistive technologies in the definition as a option in the Conformance Claim gives the option that a browser developer could claim conformance by including an AT for conformance. 18:23:10 JR: Then we could define a base browser and specify certain SC requiring the base browser compliance. 18:23:22 JS: Hates the additional complexity 18:24:02 JR: then we have to take assistive technology out of the definition. 18:25:13 KF: How strongly do you feel that if browsers claimed accessibility with assistive technology do you think it is realistic in this regulatory environment? 18:25:36 ... leave the AT in, but put an Editors Note asking whether it should be in or not. 18:26:30 JS: don't see what we gain by including AT 18:27:34 KF: the one thing you gain by including assistive technology, is if I didn't have JAWS with virtual PC mode, I would not be able to use the web today. 18:28:12 KF: Do they fail the guideline if they don't do that? 18:29:32 ... some browsers wouldn't be accessible because there is not a screen reader that has done the virtualizing screen reading for that browser. Does the browser fail the standard because the screen reader hasn't optimized for that browser? 18:30:57 KF: If someone implements the guidelines and then the AT doesn't implement it, is it the browser not compliant? 18:31:46 KF: you don't just turn on a11y API and AT works 18:31:59 ...lots more work involved by AT 18:32:13 ... even if the AT implements the guidelines, it just doesn't automatically happen that things work. 18:32:49 ... support must be added in the AT. 18:33:01 JR: there are money and politics involved. 18:34:48 JR: Then we should take the AT out of the definition, so that the user agent is taking everything to the point where the AT could take over. 18:35:04 KF: if UA does all requirements of UAAG (api, dom, etc) then AT should be able to make the content accessible 18:35:19 If all the guidelines are met, the Assistive TEchnology will have all the information they need to make the content accessible. 18:37:19 The definition applies to Web browsers and media players, whether or not they are Web-based. In addition, at the option of the Conformance Claimant, "user agent" can include the additional functionality provided by particular plug-ins and extensions. Assistive technologies are separate from "user agents", but provide important services for certain end users with disabilities. 18:38:54 JS: AT must be kept out of definition. there are browsers for specific disabilities that are not accessible to folks outside of the specified group. 18:43:15 JA: We keep talking about a definition. Now we are talking about the Example sentence. We have Jeanne's proposal in the survey, and Jan's proposal. We could use this in an Understanding document and lay out these issues because they are really critical. 18:44:01 ... I propose using the short definition and lay out the issues in one or two paragraphs, expanding the definition and implications. 18:44:33 JA: We can put it in the Introduction, not publishing an entire Understanding document. 18:45:38 A user agent is any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates END USER interaction with Web content. 18:46:13 JS: Putting the paragraphs in the definition section and pointing the glossary definition to the Definition section of the Introduction. 18:46:33 trying to follow with text only. would agree with the short def, as above, with elaboration in the intro or understanding doc. 18:47:48 present+ Mark(irc) 18:48:33 JS: We are publishing with the definition agreed on Jan 14. 18:48:54 s/Jan 14. /Jan 15. 18:49:23 action: JS will publish the new draft of the definition in next weeks survey 18:49:23 Created ACTION-116 - Will publish the new draft of the definition in next weeks survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-29]. 18:49:30 Action: allanj to create intro expansion of UA definition 18:49:30 Sorry, couldn't find user - allanj 18:49:59 Action: JA to create intro expansion of UA definition 18:49:59 Created ACTION-117 - Create intro expansion of UA definition [on Jim Allan - due 2009-01-29]. 18:51:48 zakim, close item 2 18:51:48 agendum 2, review Survey Items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090120/, closed 18:51:50 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:51:51 1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from jeanne] 18:52:05 topic: Increasing group participation 18:52:15 zakim, drop item 1 18:52:15 agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, dropped 18:54:05 KF: Can we go back to the browser vendors? Aaron Leventhal. 18:55:18 JS: interest from disability user group 18:55:46 JS: I can go back to some reps from a speech input users group who were interested 6-8 months ago. 18:56:05 JA: I can go back to Opera and follow up on some contacts. 18:56:21 also RNIB 18:56:36 apple/ safari/webkit? 18:56:52 any contacts? 18:56:56 maybe 18:57:10 i will ask 18:57:42 Google? 18:57:46 JR: a lot of people just want this to be done, and want to be able to refer to it. Since this spec doesn't involve writing code, they aren't as interested in participating in this group. 18:59:19 chromeis webkit, right? 18:59:55 meaning google chrome is webkit, i think. 19:00:16 charles chen might be intersting from google. 19:00:54 KF: I think it would be good to get people from other disabilities. 19:01:39 JA: Speech input uses also gets us keyboard functionality. 19:03:01 JS: connection with anyone in the group but not participating and bring them back 19:05:53 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090120-WD/ 19:07:41 appendix D, Acknowledgements 19:08:01 zakim, close item 19:08:01 I don't understand 'close item', jeanne 19:08:09 zakim, next item 19:08:09 agendum 3. "Glossary proposal" taken up [from jeanne] 19:08:29 JA: Thanks for Jan for slogging through this. 19:09:48 issue: Someone needs to read through the entire document and identify words/phrases that need a definition. 19:09:48 Created ISSUE-30 - Someone needs to read through the entire document and identify words/phrases that need a definition. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/30/edit . 19:10:34 JA: How do we want to handle this logistically? 19:10:45 JR: there are over 100 definitions. 19:11:18 mth has joined #ua 19:11:20 KF: I suggest putting it out to the list that we are going to approve the glossary this week, so bring all issues to the meeting next week. 19:12:39 ... we are only going to discuss the glossary items with issues. 19:13:25 JS: or A - M one week, or N - Z next week 19:13:34 JR: If they were loaded 20 at a time into the survey. That is what ATAG has been doing\ 19:16:33 JA: I was proposing that we accept the changes and I add the comments in where they apply and put that into the survey. 19:21:18 action: JS will load glossary items into the survey 20 a week, with present and proposed. Sometimes the proposed will be a comment to delete it. 19:21:18 Created ACTION-118 - Will load glossary items into the survey 20 a week, with present and proposed. Sometimes the proposed will be a comment to delete it. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-29]. 19:21:49 -[Microsoft] 19:21:53 Happy birthday to Jim 19:21:55 -JR 19:21:57 -jallan 19:21:58 -jeanne 19:21:59 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:22:01 Attendees were [Microsoft], jeanne, JR, jallan 19:22:23 rrsagent, make minutes 19:22:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-ua-minutes.html jeanne 19:22:50 rrsagent, make logs public 19:22:57 rrsagent, make minutes 19:22:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-ua-minutes.html jeanne 19:26:32 Jim, c an you see the minutes page? 19:26:50 rrsagent, make minutes 19:26:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-ua-minutes.html jeanne 19:26:55 not yet, sometimes it takes a few minutes 19:27:23 I've never seen it take this long. 19:27:42 what about the logs? I came late so don't have a link 19:28:00 good idea. 19:28:32 http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-ua-irc 19:29:07 at least the logs are there. 19:29:20 rrsagent, set logs public 19:29:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:29:31 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-ua-minutes.html jeanne 19:30:10 most odd, send the logs 19:34:19 I'm going to see if I can get it fixed. 19:37:45 ted has joined #ua 19:37:54 RRSAgent, draft minutes 19:37:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-ua-minutes.html ted 19:38:41 KFord has joined #ua 19:41:04 ted has left #ua 19:41:41 'll send them out as soon as they appear. ]