15:38:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:38:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/20-rif-irc
15:38:49 <csma> zakim, this will be rif
15:38:49 <Zakim> ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
15:40:07 <csma> Meeting: RIF telecon 20 January 2009
15:40:24 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
15:42:24 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jan/0040.html
15:43:15 <csma> csma has changed the topic to: RIF telecon 20 January; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jan/0040.html
15:45:04 <csma> Regrets: JosDeBruijn, MichaelKifer
15:47:37 <csma> Regrets: JosDeBruijn, MichaelKifer, AxelPolleres
15:48:02 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/20-rif-minutes.html csma
15:48:19 <csma> rrsagent, make logs public
15:48:33 <csma> zakim, clear agenda
15:48:33 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:53:06 <csma> agendum+ Admin
15:53:25 <csma> agendum+ Liaisons
15:53:34 <csma> agendum+ Public comments
15:53:43 <csma> agendum+ Actions review
15:54:07 <csma> agendum+ F2F12 debrief
15:54:20 <csma> agendum+ F2F13
15:56:06 <csma> agendum+ AOB (scribing)
15:56:24 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #rif
15:57:33 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:57:33 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:57:34 <Zakim> 1. Admin [from csma]
15:57:34 <Zakim> 2. Liaisons [from csma]
15:57:36 <Zakim> 3. Public comments [from csma]
15:57:36 <Zakim> 4. Actions review [from csma]
15:57:38 <Zakim> 5. F2F12 debrief [from csma]
15:57:38 <Zakim> 6. F2F13 [from csma]
15:57:39 <Zakim> 7. AOB (scribing) [from csma]
15:58:36 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:59:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:00:15 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:22 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
16:01:03 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
16:01:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:01:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeoraMorgenstern
16:01:47 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:01:51 <Zakim> +??P25
16:02:02 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:02:02 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:02:12 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:02:29 <ChrisW> Scribe: LeoraMorgenstern
16:02:47 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 1
16:02:47 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
16:02:51 <Zakim> +??P26
16:03:23 <Zakim> +??P28
16:03:26 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:03:50 <csma> zakim, ??P25 is me
16:03:50 <Zakim> I already had ??P25 as DaveReynolds, csma
16:04:06 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, DaveReynolds, ??P26, ??P28, Sandro
16:04:10 <csma> zakim, ??P26 is me
16:04:10 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:04:35 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
16:04:36 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P28 is me
16:04:36 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:04:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of  January 6, 2009 telecon
16:04:40 <csma> PROPOSED: approve the minutes of January 6
16:04:44 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2009Jan/att-0007/06-rif-minutes.html
16:04:46 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
16:04:46 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
16:05:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> RESOLVED: approve the minutes of January 6
16:05:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: any amendments to the agenda?
16:05:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> (None)
16:05:27 <csma> next item
16:05:36 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 2
16:05:36 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liaisons" taken up [from csma]
16:05:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Any news from our liaisons?
16:05:58 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
16:05:58 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
16:06:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We might have news from our OWL liaison soon.. There is an action to get them to change their data types.
16:06:14 <csma> q?
16:06:22 <Zakim> +GaryHallmark
16:07:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: We haven't had any communication from them, and it's rather urgent, because deadline for last call comments are Jan. 23.
16:07:15 <sandro> s/from/for/
16:07:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: so we should register an objection immediately.
16:07:54 <sandro> "to" them?>
16:08:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/communication from/communication with
16:08:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/communication for/communication with
16:08:43 <sandro> from minutes:
16:08:49 <sandro> from minutes: RESOLVED: Add xsd:nonNegativeInteger, xsd:anyURI, xsd:hexBinary, xsd:base64Binary to RIF Core. In RIF, the xsd numeric types will have disjoint value spaces (as in XSD1.1, unlike current OWL 2 drafts)-- we'll push for OWL to change and assume they will. [The owl:* types will be decided separately. Value spaces of Binaries will be decided separately. When those are decided, it will close ISSUE-81] ←
16:09:18 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-01-15#resolution_10
16:10:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Since this is not just a discussion between Jos and Boris, but represents the decision of the RIF group (that the data types  need to be changed),  chairs should send a sensitive (politically correct) email.
16:10:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: original idea was to have an informal discussion (thus the action on Jos), but since time is running out, a formal objection/email is necessary.
16:11:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I don't think Jos has done anything yet about it.
16:11:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: I will send a message to Ian and Allen letting them know.
16:11:20 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:11:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: How did the actual discussion go?
16:11:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Are we leaning toward accepting other OWL data types and just rejecting non-disjointness?
16:11:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Yes
16:12:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Yes, non-disjointness is a real problem for built-ins.  See Dave Reynold's example.
16:12:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Now, OWL doesn't care about built-ins. So our objection is not specific to OWL, it's directed toward the interoperability of RIF and OWL.
16:13:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: That is, this isn't a complaint about OWL itself. The message to them should stress this point.
16:13:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Our message should say that we believe OWL and RIF should be interoperable, and the non-disjointness would break that.
16:13:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: I'm trying to put a positive spin on this: We want to be compatible and interoperable with OWL, and the non-disjointness would break that.
16:14:46 <ChrisW> action: Chris to draft formal response to the OWL WG regarding datatype disjointness
16:14:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-698 - Draft formal response to the OWL WG regarding datatype disjointness [on Christopher Welty - due 2009-01-27].
16:15:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Perhaps there's a way of having two different lenses (wrong word) on this. So that OWL could see types as non-disjoint, but RIF would see them as disjoint.
16:15:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: Email should be sent by Friday, but better to do it by tomorrow before OWL telecon.
16:15:49 <csma> next item
16:16:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: I saw no new public comments. We are done with responding to all previous public comments.
16:16:40 <csma> next item
16:16:50 <csma> zakim, close item 3
16:16:50 <Zakim> agendum 3, Public comments, closed
16:16:51 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:16:52 <Zakim> 4. Actions review [from csma]
16:18:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action 696 is done.
16:18:09 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 696
16:18:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action 695 continued?
16:18:22 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 695
16:18:36 <sandro> action-696 clodes
16:18:41 <sandro> action-696 closed
16:18:41 <trackbot> ACTION-696 Start survey, including question about objecting to having it in north america again. closed
16:18:42 <Gary> my actions are continued
16:19:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-693, Action-694, Action-691 continued
16:19:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-690 continued,
16:19:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> All actions on Jos (from 682 and on ) are continued
16:19:54 <AdrianP> shall we close Action-693 since we just decided that Chris will send an email to the OWL WG?
16:20:05 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-678 closed
16:20:05 <trackbot> ACTION-678 Send response to TK2 closed
16:20:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-633 continued
16:20:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-5092 continued
16:21:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-592 continued
16:22:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-579 continued
16:23:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-588 continued
16:23:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> Hassan's action continued
16:23:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-439 continued
16:23:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-653 continued
16:24:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> Reviewing Pending actions now:
16:25:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-591 is closed (discussed at F2F)
16:26:12 <sandro> action-591 closed
16:26:12 <trackbot> ACTION-591 Draft a straw proposal addressing part of ISSUE-37, in the area of navigating the schema/data. closed
16:28:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-614 closed
16:28:32 <trackbot> ACTION-614 Start discussion on what test cases we need closed
16:29:33 <csma> next item
16:29:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> Action-631 still left open
16:29:47 <apaschke> apaschke has joined #rif
16:30:07 <csma> zakim, close item 4
16:30:07 <Zakim> agendum 4, Actions review, closed
16:30:08 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:30:10 <Zakim> 5. F2F12 debrief [from csma]
16:30:14 <csma> next item
16:30:27 <apaschke> wrt test cases: we had a discussion document where I listed several test case types 
16:30:29 <apaschke> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/TCS
16:30:47 <apaschke> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/TCS#Categories_of_RIF_Dialect_test_cases
16:30:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: The minutes are in the wiki, but need to be cleaned up.
16:30:52 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
16:30:59 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2009-01-14
16:31:38 <apaschke> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:31:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, DaveReynolds, csma, AdrianP, Sandro, Stella_Mitchell, GaryHallmark
16:31:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: There's a link on the minutes to the editable wiki version; you can edit that; and then preview nicely formatted version; then click on save button if you like what you see.
16:31:58 <apaschke> Zakim, AdrianP is me
16:31:58 <Zakim> +apaschke; got it
16:32:14 <csma> q?
16:32:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We followed the agenda quite closely.
16:33:05 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We started by reviewing test cases, focusing on OWL and RDF.
16:33:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: checked not just for BLD, but for core, so they could be approved for BLD and PRD.
16:33:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We approved 5 test cases
16:33:32 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
16:33:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> <put in the numbers of the test cases approved>
16:34:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: we rejected one test case. <put in correct number>
16:35:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Next, we discussed problems PRD with object representations --- whether objects could be properly represented using frames.
16:35:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Discussion focused on multi-valued attributes for frames vs. the fact that normally this can't be done for objects.
16:36:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Discussed extending syntax for frames to express cardinality of max 1.
16:36:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Focus was on syntax.
16:37:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Michael wasn't very happy; would have to rewrite chunk of specification.
16:38:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> <missing a minute>
16:38:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Gary suggested that [get what is missing]
16:39:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Real semantic difference was with respect to actions.
16:39:14 <sandro> csma: Basic solution (grom Gary) seems to be:   leave multi/single difference to be implicit in whether the action used is ASSERT or MODIFY.
16:39:20 <sandro> s/from/from/
16:39:23 <sandro> s/grom/from/
16:40:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: should be able to come up with soln. from PRD that would both respect interoperability and enable translation from PRD documents.
16:41:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: csma, you have presented it in a neutral way, but in reality, there was consensus from everyone but Chaing-kai, who has not yet given a specific reason for his objection.
16:42:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: nevertheless, I would not yet have proposed a resolution on that. Still needs more thought and discussion.
16:43:09 <sandro> from minutes: PROPOSED: PRD will have have "Modify" action which removes all previous values for the given properties, then sets one new value as given. Implementations can be use the fact that values for a given property are only provided via MODIFY (never ASSERT), then it can be implemented as single-valued. ←
16:43:09 <sandro> 17:32:19 <cke> -1
16:43:09 <sandro> Changhai Ke: -1 ←
16:43:23 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:43:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: so, what was the outcome?
16:44:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Sandro: I understood that we had consensus to do Gary's proposal, unless within the next 2 weeks, ChaingHai  comes up with objection/alternative.
16:44:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/ChaingHai/Changhai
16:45:02 <csma> ack dave
16:45:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/Chaing-kai/Changhai/
16:46:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> [more discussion that I need to clarify about who said what and how many times minds were changed.]
16:47:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Afternoon discussion on interoperability with xml and o-o xml
16:48:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Both proposals (??) were considered, and have various (dis)advantages
16:50:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Both are feasible and can guarantee interoperability.
16:50:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: No recommendation, but significant progress on an issue that's been pending for a year.
16:51:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Also, discussion on PRD  issue raised by Mark Proctor and those in ILOG:  That universal quantification of all variables might work differently in PRD.
16:51:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Specifically, that universal quantifier might work differently depending on whether scope of quantiier was rule or (??) just condition.
16:52:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: conclusion: universal quantifier works the same, as expected.
16:53:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Moving on, now, to the second day.
16:53:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: (First day was very effective in terms of understanding issues, second day was very effective in terms of closing the issues/ passing resolutions)
16:54:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Discussed how PRD interoperated with RDF and OWL.
16:54:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: PRD will not interact directly with RDF and OWL; will just inherit the interoperability from Core.
16:55:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: discussed the safeness limitation. Finiteness is not an issue wrt PRD.
16:55:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Jos has an action to write safeness condition in Core.
16:55:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: PRD is an extension of Core with added safeness condition.
16:55:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We then closed issue 82
16:56:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> sandro:  everyone comfortable with Core being maximal subset of PRD and BLD. Axel argued with smaller more Datalog version of Core. 
16:57:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/with smaller/ for smaller/
16:57:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: discussed why we needed two cores, one with safeness, and a smaller one with finiteness
16:57:39 <ChrisW> i am ok with non-finiteness in CORE as long as we call an examples of such a "Core Breach"
16:57:54 <DaveReynolds> :-)
16:58:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Then we discussed a number of issues in Core: issue 84
16:59:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> (issue 84 regards subclass)
16:59:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: We also closed issues (missing, check minutes)
16:59:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: closed issue 72, about skolem functions in Core. No, no objectifcation construct in Core.
17:00:03 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Regretfully, we couldn't find a good design to address this.
17:01:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: closed issue 33, about xml data sources. We had discussed xml data sources the day before. Our mechanism for accessing xml and rdf is enough; all others use externals. IOW, blackboxed external access.
17:01:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Issue 78, of what to make external: We decided that only externals in BLD, PRD, Core will be predicates and functions. No external frames, etc.
17:03:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: short discussion of xml schema: should be imported by PRD and BLD? (issue 69). Decided we'd have one Core schema, included in BLD and PRD. 
17:05:09 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Had planned to discuss issues 80 and 81, but Axel wasn't available, as hoped, on the phone.
17:05:13 <sandro> (Sorry, only paying half attention, to watch inauguration)
17:07:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> [get missing stuff]
17:08:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Date time stamp --- changhai objected to this --- wanted to see real impact --- has an action to agree to the type, or come up with concrte objection.
17:08:36 <ChrisW> leora, this is all in the f2f meeting minutes - it's not critical to capture everything csma says
17:08:42 <ChrisW> ...only if there is discussion
17:09:09 <ChrisW> zakim, who is here?
17:09:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, DaveReynolds, csma, apaschke, Sandro, Stella_Mitchell, GaryHallmark, [NRCC]
17:09:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Harold, apaschke, Gary, StellaMitchell, LeoraMorgenstern, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, RRSAgent, csma, sandro, trackbot, Zakim
17:10:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> csma: Discussion of next F2F: if possible, in Boston, so Sandro can attend.
17:10:48 <Gary> go obama!
17:11:29 <csma> +1
17:11:31 <Harold> +1
17:11:44 <apaschke> bye
17:11:46 <Zakim> -[NRCC]
17:11:51 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell
17:11:52 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
17:11:57 <Zakim> -apaschke
17:12:05 <Zakim> -GaryHallmark
17:12:10 <csma> zakim, list attendees
17:12:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been LeoraMorgenstern, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, Sandro, csma, Stella_Mitchell, GaryHallmark, apaschke, [NRCC]
17:12:16 <ChrisW> Regrets: JosDeBruijn MichaelKifer PaulVincent
17:12:18 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
17:12:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/20-rif-minutes.html csma
17:13:48 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:13:50 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
17:13:50 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:13:51 <Zakim> -csma
17:13:51 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:13:52 <Zakim> Attendees were LeoraMorgenstern, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, Sandro, csma, Stella_Mitchell, GaryHallmark, apaschke, [NRCC]
17:52:53 <csma> csma has left #rif