IRC log of ua on 2009-01-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:52:49 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #ua
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc
- 17:52:51 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 17:52:51 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #ua
- 17:52:51 [AllanJ]
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- 17:52:53 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
- 17:52:53 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
- 17:52:54 [trackbot]
- Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
- 17:52:54 [trackbot]
- Date: 15 January 2009
- 17:53:09 [sharper]
- chair: Allan_James, Brewer_Judy
- 17:53:32 [jeanne]
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- zakim, code
- 17:53:43 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'code', sharper
- 17:54:29 [jeanne]
- zakim, code?
- 17:54:29 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
- 17:54:46 [sharper]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0005.html
- 17:54:54 [sharper]
- scribe: Harper_Simon
- 17:55:01 [sharper]
- ScribeNick: sharper
- 17:55:18 [sharper]
- present+ Spellman_Jeanne
- 17:55:33 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
- 17:55:40 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Formalizing our editorial standards (using action verbs, if clauses, etc. )
- 17:55:48 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Should Assistive Technology be included in User Agent? See David's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0003.html
- 17:55:58 [sharper]
- Agenda+ Continue review of Guideline 3.5 through 3.13
- 17:56:41 [sharper]
- zakim, item 1
- 17:56:41 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'item 1', sharper
- 17:56:58 [sharper]
- zakim, next item 1
- 17:56:58 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'next item 1', sharper
- 17:57:35 [jeanne]
- zakim, take up item 1
- 17:57:35 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from sharper]
- 17:57:48 [sharper]
- present+ Allan_Jim
- 17:57:57 [Zakim]
- WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
- 17:58:04 [Zakim]
- +jeanne
- 17:59:31 [Zakim]
- +??P1
- 17:59:34 [Zakim]
- -jeanne
- 17:59:35 [Zakim]
- +jeanne
- 18:00:05 [sharper]
- zakim, ??P1 is sharper
- 18:00:05 [Zakim]
- +sharper; got it
- 18:01:14 [mth]
- mth has joined #ua
- 18:02:00 [mth]
- will join on by phone in approx 5 minutes
- 18:02:35 [Zakim]
- +jallan
- 18:03:05 [sharper]
- present+ Hakkinen_Mark
- 18:03:28 [sharper]
- regrets+ Brewer_Judy
- 18:03:43 [sharper]
- regrets+ Ford_Kelly
- 18:04:10 [sharper]
- regrets+ Richards_Jan
- 18:04:45 [sharper]
- regrets+ Poehlman_David
- 18:05:03 [sharper]
- Current editors draft:
- 18:05:03 [sharper]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/UAAG20-20090113-ED/
- 18:05:30 [sharper]
- Open Action Items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
- 18:05:56 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 1
- 18:05:56 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?, closed
- 18:05:56 [sharper]
- zakim, next item
- 18:05:57 [Zakim]
- I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 18:05:58 [Zakim]
- 2. Formalizing our editorial standards (using action verbs, if clauses, etc. ) [from sharper]
- 18:06:00 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Formalizing our editorial standards (using action verbs, if clauses, etc. )" taken up [from sharper]
- 18:06:16 [sharper]
- Regrets+ Cantor_Alan
- 18:10:19 [Zakim]
- +Mark_Hakkinen
- 18:18:14 [sharper]
- JA: Drifting on Language - identified at original meeting with JS.
- 18:18:47 [sharper]
- JA: Now seem to be re-drifting - wondering if we have a set of phrases... etc
- 18:19:30 [sharper]
- JS: Start with Action Verb - if there is an if clause - put that before Action verb - no decision on 'handles' / sort titles.
- 18:19:45 [sharper]
- MH: Nothing concrete on this.
- 18:20:50 [sharper]
- JA: Let's use JS's suggestion...'Start with Action Verb - if there is an if clause - put that before Action verb'
- 18:22:11 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: Start with Action Verb - if there is an IF-Clause - put that before the Action Verb
- 18:23:16 [sharper]
- JA - MH: Need stock phrases - see example of 'provide a global option' against 'user has the option'
- 18:23:25 [sharper]
- JA: Nail these down as we proceed.
- 18:23:37 [sharper]
- zakim, close item2zakim, next item
- 18:23:37 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'close item2zakim, next item', sharper
- 18:23:49 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 2
- 18:23:49 [Zakim]
- agendum 2, Formalizing our editorial standards (using action verbs, if clauses, etc. ), closed
- 18:23:51 [sharper]
- zakim, next item
- 18:23:52 [Zakim]
- I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 18:23:55 [Zakim]
- 3. Should Assistive Technology be included in User Agent? See David's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0003.html [from sharper]
- 18:23:59 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Should Assistive Technology be included in User Agent? See David's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0003.html" taken up [from sharper]
- 18:25:33 [sharper]
- When composing a definition for something which you are gathering spec, it is necessary that the deffinition fit the spec. For instance, if you are going to call AT a user agent, the AT must meet the spec or the spec must be written such that it takes the AT unto account. I would think that this would be problematic in instances say where you try to use firefox with the mac os and while the AT for the Mac with Safari might meet the spec, It would not meet the
- 18:31:38 [AllanJ]
- user agent definition: A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs including assistive technologies, that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content.
- 18:33:41 [sharper]
- JA: Could we remove AT from the definition?
- 18:33:49 [sharper]
- JA: Does it hurt?
- 18:36:41 [AllanJ]
- SH: the first line is clear. the second line seems to contradict. AT does not do that.
- 18:39:12 [AllanJ]
- A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs that facilitate the retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content.
- 18:39:42 [AllanJ]
- JS: remove the second sentence
- 18:42:04 [AllanJ]
- A user agent is any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates interaction with Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, extensions, and
- 18:42:06 [AllanJ]
- web applications.
- 18:44:20 [jeanne]
- action: Jeanne to put the new phrasing of User Agent into next week's survey.
- 18:44:20 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-112 - Put the new phrasing of User Agent into next week's survey. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-22].
- 18:45:06 [sharper]
- All: Do we have definitions from other WGroups? Not HTML 5
- 18:45:26 [mth]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/conform.html#didx-user_agent
- 18:46:16 [AllanJ]
- ATAG and WCAG reference the original UAAG def ... A user agent is any software that retrieves and presents Web content for end users. Examples include Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs including assistive technologies, that help in retrieving, rendering and interacting with Web content.
- 18:50:55 [jeanne2]
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- 18:50:58 [sharper]
- JA: To ask DP for clarification
- 18:51:32 [sharper]
- JA: Place on Survey and Use in Editors Draft - to see responses.
- 18:51:33 [sharper]
- zakim, close item 3
- 18:51:33 [Zakim]
- agendum 3, Should Assistive Technology be included in User Agent? See David's email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0003.html, closed
- 18:51:34 [sharper]
- zakim, next item
- 18:51:37 [Zakim]
- I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
- 18:51:38 [Zakim]
- 4. Continue review of Guideline 3.5 through 3.13 [from sharper]
- 18:51:40 [Zakim]
- agendum 4. "Continue review of Guideline 3.5 through 3.13" taken up [from sharper]
- 18:52:04 [AllanJ]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JanMar/0006.html
- 18:58:41 [sharper]
- JA JS: Discussion regarding suitable location re operable and perceivable.
- 19:01:36 [sharper]
- JA: 3.3.D Text Scaling / 3.3.C Visual Media Scaling / 3.3.E Visual Media Brightness/Contrast are all perceivable.
- 19:02:02 [jeanne2]
- action: jeanne to Fix the numbering in Section 4.9 and add an editor's note saying that it came from section 3.3. Put a note in 3.3 saying it was moved to 4.9.
- 19:02:04 [sharper]
- JA: WCAG Define both Operable and Perceivable
- 19:02:05 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-113 - Fix the numbering in Section 4.9 and add an editor's note saying that it came from section 3.3. Put a note in 3.3 saying it was moved to 4.9. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-22].
- 19:03:22 [Zakim]
- -sharper
- 19:03:45 [jeanne2]
- scribe: jeanne
- 19:03:49 [AllanJ]
- 3.3.7 should be in perceivable
- 19:04:01 [Zakim]
- +??P1
- 19:04:02 [jeanne2]
- slow is operable.
- 19:04:24 [sharper]
- zakim, ??P1 is sharper
- 19:04:24 [Zakim]
- +sharper; got it
- 19:04:49 [jeanne2]
- if it requires a mechanism, then it should be under operable.
- 19:04:58 [jeanne2]
- scribe:sharper
- 19:05:27 [sharper]
- JA: 3.3.6 Unavailable Content: Perceivable
- 19:05:32 [sharper]
- MH: Agrees
- 19:06:09 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: 3.3.6 - moves to Perceivable
- 19:06:28 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: 3.3.7 - moves to Perceivable
- 19:07:42 [jeanne2]
- action: jeanne to move 3.3.6, 3.3.7 back to Guideline 3.3
- 19:07:42 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-114 - Move 3.3.6, 3.3.7 back to Guideline 3.3 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-01-22].
- 19:07:53 [sharper]
- JA: 3.3.5 Execution Placeholder: Operable?
- 19:10:21 [AllanJ]
- JS: in the introduction, we say we want user to have control. so we need to take 'user has the option' out of the equation
- 19:10:39 [sharper]
- JS: Operate
- 19:10:43 [sharper]
- JA agrees
- 19:10:52 [AllanJ]
- ...then decide if the result is operable or perceivable
- 19:10:53 [sharper]
- SH: Agrees
- 19:11:10 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: 3.3.5 - stays as operable
- 19:14:14 [sharper]
- JA: 3.3.4 based on examples seems to be operable
- 19:14:53 [sharper]
- JA: Do we know if content will render? So operation seems key.
- 19:15:25 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: 3.3.4 - stays as operable
- 19:17:07 [jeanne2]
- action: JA to review 3.3.4 in guideline 4.9 to see whether it is feasible for the UA to control the rendering.
- 19:17:07 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-115 - Review 3.3.4 in guideline 4.9 to see whether it is feasible for the UA to control the rendering. [on Jim Allan - due 2009-01-22].
- 19:18:18 [sharper]
- JA: 3.3.3 Time-Based Media Load-Only.
- 19:18:27 [sharper]
- JS: Operable Clearly
- 19:18:29 [AllanJ]
- +1
- 19:18:33 [sharper]
- MH: Agrees
- 19:18:37 [sharper]
- +1
- 19:19:00 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: 3.3.3 - stays as operable
- 19:19:47 [sharper]
- JA: seems like a user override of the authors intention - maybe we need something saying 'user has the option to override...'
- 19:20:08 [sharper]
- JS: Scattered over the doc - maybe need a user understanding document?
- 19:21:50 [sharper]
- JA: MH has an action on this
- 19:22:08 [sharper]
- MH: 3.3.8 Slow Multimedia is close to this
- 19:22:31 [jeanne2]
- I think the individual global preferences are better kept in the context (e.g. keyboard) for better understanding. It may be useful to have a list of all the global options in one location, but not in the Guidelines.
- 19:23:59 [sharper]
- JA: 3.3.1 Background Image Toggle: Thoughts
- 19:24:07 [sharper]
- SH: Operable
- 19:24:16 [sharper]
- JA: Agrees
- 19:24:36 [jeanne2]
- JS: Operable
- 19:24:36 [sharper]
- JS: Agrees
- 19:24:44 [sharper]
- MH: Agrees
- 19:24:58 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: 3.3.1 - stays as operable
- 19:25:25 [sharper]
- JA: 3.3.F Paused Time-Based Media - how different from 3.3.9
- 19:26:54 [sharper]
- MH: being able to explore the media on the screen (once paused) will enable rich content interaction
- 19:27:37 [sharper]
- JA: Need a list separate and apart from while it's streaming by.
- 19:27:50 [sharper]
- MH: All there in the DOM.
- 19:28:20 [sharper]
- JA: Is this teased out in the document - maybe hinders accessibility with all the voicing of the descriptions going by
- 19:30:41 [sharper]
- MH: Maybe the timeline needs elaboration? For instance with the DAISY plug in to Firevox you can navigate via the timeline of the voicing or the structure of the document.
- 19:34:24 [sharper]
- JA: Do we need to come up with a whole new set of guidelines for this navigation?
- 19:34:47 [sharper]
- See 4.7.1 Structured Navigation
- 19:36:29 [Zakim]
- -Mark_Hakkinen
- 19:36:36 [Zakim]
- -jeanne
- 19:36:39 [Zakim]
- -sharper
- 19:36:43 [sharper]
- RESOLVED: 3.3.1 Unresolved
- 19:37:02 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 19:37:02 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 19:37:42 [sharper]
- present+ Harper_Simon
- 19:37:48 [sharper]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 19:37:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 19:38:31 [sharper]
- zakim, please part
- 19:38:31 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were jeanne, sharper, jallan, Mark_Hakkinen
- 19:38:31 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #ua
- 19:38:48 [sharper]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 19:38:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-minutes.html sharper
- 19:39:42 [sharper]
- rrsagent, please part
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-actions.rdf :
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Jeanne to put the new phrasing of User Agent into next week's survey. [1]
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc#T18-44-20
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jeanne to Fix the numbering in Section 4.9 and add an editor's note saying that it came from section 3.3. Put a note in 3.3 saying it was moved to 4.9. [2]
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc#T19-02-02
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jeanne to move 3.3.6, 3.3.7 back to Guideline 3.3 [3]
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc#T19-07-42
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JA to review 3.3.4 in guideline 4.9 to see whether it is feasible for the UA to control the rendering. [4]
- 19:39:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-ua-irc#T19-17-07