IRC log of html-wg on 2009-01-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:09:30 [krijnh]: krijnh has joined #html-wg
01:09:18 [Hixie]: anyone here working with the ARIA folk on the spec that defines the generic terms for html5 to plug into?
01:12:48 [gavin_]: gavin_ has joined #html-wg
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04:51:08 [MikeSmith]: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2009/01/post31_plans.html
04:51:10 [pimpbot]: Title: Well, I'm Back: Post-3.1 Plans (at weblogs.mozillazine.org)
04:51:56 [MikeSmith]: "Brian Birtles and Daniel Holbert have massively cleaned up and simplified the SMIL patch so that it's ready for landing. This is just the basic SMIL infrastructure --- considerably more work is required to implement all the features of SVG Animation --- but it's a great base to build on."
04:52:47 [heycam]: yum
04:55:26 [shepazu]: yay!
05:03:09 [shepazu]: MikeSmith: you saw this? http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090114-nokia-qt-lgpl-switch-huge-win-for-cross-platform-development.html
05:03:22 [MikeSmith]: yep
05:04:06 [MikeSmith]: they're also making read access to their source repository public
05:05:29 [MikeSmith]: and (I think) putting into place some mechanism for enabling chosen non-Trolltech/Nokia committers
05:05:47 [MikeSmith]: similar to WebKit project
05:09:28 [sryo]: sryo has joined #html-wg
05:11:26 [MikeSmith]: shepazu: also, Qt 4.5 ships with the Qt WebKit port as an integrated component
05:12:51 [MikeSmith]: so I'd imagine the adoption of LPGL for Qt could mean that WebKit will show up a few more places than it has so far
05:14:02 [shepazu]: sweet, MikeSmith
05:16:02 [MikeSmith]: yeah, I know I'm sweet.
05:16:12 [MikeSmith]: sweet like sorghum molasses
05:16:15 [heycam]: heycam has joined #html-wg
05:18:27 [shepazu]: 3 moles are climbing out of a mole-hole during a picnic... top mole says, I smell honey ... middle mole says, I smell maple syrup... bottom mole says, I only smell molasses
05:23:18 [MikeSmith]: shepazu: I think that joke should be title "Missouri Wisdom"
05:23:49 [shepazu]: MikeSmith: well, I heard it from a guy from Mississippi, just recently
05:24:01 [MikeSmith]: same thing
05:24:36 [MikeSmith]: It's all one big happy extended family down there
05:25:15 [shepazu]: ok, jetpack... where are you from again?
05:25:35 [MikeSmith]: Nishi-Shinjuku
05:25:43 [MikeSmith]: right next to Chuo-koen
05:26:15 [shepazu]: I thought you were from Ala-bama
05:27:42 [MikeSmith]: I lived in Montgomery for 1 year
05:28:10 [MikeSmith]: then I lived in Ohio for a while
05:28:25 [MikeSmith]: later in Texas
05:28:28 [shepazu]: that alabama stink must still be on you, son
05:30:20 [MikeSmith]: Texas is actually a separate country, and native Texans allow the rest of the US to consider it a state
05:31:07 [shepazu]: don't I wish!
05:31:46 [shepazu]: they can have that hick-hole
05:31:48 [shepazu]: even austin and san antonio aren't enough to redeem it
05:31:51 [shepazu]: I've lived in texas
05:32:30 [shepazu]: we should give it back to mexico, as punishment for letting so many immigrants leave their country
05:33:46 [shepazu]: although I do like parts of west texas, like palo dura canyon
05:41:18 [MikeSmith]: http://cameronmoll.com/archives/2009/01/12_resources_for_html5/
05:41:21 [pimpbot]: Title: 12 resources for getting a jump on HTML 5 ~ Authentic Boredom (at cameronmoll.com)
05:46:26 [shepazu]: "So far from what I’m learning, the consensus among several of these articles seems to be this: The world isn’t ready for HTML 5 at large just yet, but we can begin preparing for it by using common, semantic selector names"
05:56:36 [gavin_]: gavin_ has joined #html-wg
06:26:34 [MikeSmith]: http://ajaxian.com/archives/chris-wilson-interview-on-tech-luminaries
06:26:35 [pimpbot]: Title: Ajaxian � Chris Wilson interview on Tech Luminaries (at ajaxian.com)
06:29:11 [MikeSmith]: http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2009/01/changes-for-jaiku-and-farewell-to.html
06:29:22 [pimpbot]: Title: Google Code Blog: Changes for Jaiku and Farewell to Dodgeball and Mashup Editor (at google-code-updates.blogspot.com)
06:31:59 [MikeSmith]: "we are in the process of porting Jaiku over to Google App Engine. After the migration is complete, we will release the new open source Jaiku Engine project on Google Code under the Apache License... With the open source Jaiku Engine project, organizations, groups and individuals will be able to roll-their-own microblogging services and deploy them on Google App Engine. The new Jaiku Engine will include support for OAuth"
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09:49:47 [pimpbot]: bugmail: "[Bug 6438] New: Error in step 9.4 of the internal algorithm for scanning and assigning header cells" (1 message in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0020.html> 4** "[Bug 6437] New: document.location should update when the browsing context is navigated without the Document changing" ( message in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0019.html>
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12:46:05 [pimpbot]: planet: Using WAI ARIA Landmark Roles <11http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=106>
12:52:03 [pimpbot]: bugmail: "[Bug 6440] New: To which elements applies the formatBlock command?" (1 message in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0022.html> 4** "[Bug 6439] New: should stringify href (like )" (1 message in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0021.html>
13:05:59 [Julian]: Julian has joined #html-wg
13:22:10 [pimpbot]: bugmail: "[Bug 6440] To which elements applies the formatBlock command?" (1 message in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0023.html>
13:30:09 [MikeSmith]: MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
13:52:18 [pimpbot]: bugmail: "[Bug 6439] should stringify href (like )" (1 message in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2009Jan/0024.html>
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14:24:58 [MichaelC]: MichaelC has joined #html-wg
14:27:11 [anne]: that comment clearly missed the point
14:28:01 [MikeSmith]: anne: which comment?
14:37:24 [anne]: in bug 6439
14:41:04 [takkaria]: gotta love public bug systems :)
14:42:41 [tlr]: tlr has joined #html-wg
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15:57:25 [Julian]: zakim, code?
15:58:47 [anne]: the bot is not here
15:58:56 [anne]: and it's an hour early
15:59:11 [Julian]: is it?
15:59:18 [MikeSmith]: yep
15:59:19 [MikeSmith]: trackbot, list
15:59:19 [trackbot]: Sorry, MikeSmith, I don't understand 'trackbot, list'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:59:20 [pimpbot]: Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
15:59:36 [Julian]: oh, it is. sorry.
15:59:43 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #html-wg
15:59:49 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, list
15:59:49 [Zakim]: I see Math_IG()10:00AM, W3C_(W3F_TF)8:00AM, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, WAI_Team()10:45AM active
15:59:51 [Zakim]: also scheduled at this time are Style_XSL FO()10:00AM, WS_WSRA()11:00AM, Team_Global(review)8:00AM, Team_Comm()11:00AM, GA_SVGIG()11:00AM, XML_PMWG()11:00AM, SW_RIF(F2F12)11:00AM,
15:59:57 [Zakim]: ... IA_WebApps(Widgets)10:00AM, GA_WebCGM()11:00AM, INC_EMOXG()10:00AM, SW_HCLS()11:00AM, SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM
16:02:59 [rubys]: rubys has joined #html-wg
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16:22:46 [gavin_]: gavin_ has joined #html-wg
16:23:15 [rubys]: rubys has joined #html-wg
16:27:45 [anne]: Lachy, will you dial in? I haven't been able to fix Skype
16:28:15 [anne]: (I haven't put much effort into it yet, either, tbh)
16:32:31 [Lachy]: is there a telcon on tonight?
16:32:43 [anne]: yes, 30m
16:32:52 [Lachy]: ok. I suppose I can call in
16:34:31 [DanC]: DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG telcon 15 Jan 16:00Z http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0001.html ; This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
16:36:18 [DanC]: close ACTION-92
16:36:18 [trackbot]: ACTION-92 Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG closed
16:36:30 [DanC]: ACTION-92: dup of ACTION-90
16:36:30 [trackbot]: ACTION-92 Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG notes added
16:37:22 [DanC]: action-90: Masinter 14 Jan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0002.html
16:37:22 [trackbot]: ACTION-90 Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG notes added
16:37:23 [pimpbot]: Title: Action 90 & 92: Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG - due 2009-01-15 - open from Larry Masinter on 2009-01-14 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:39:24 [DanC]: action-91: Ruby 8 Jan http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jan/0063.html
16:39:24 [trackbot]: ACTION-91 Propose 'legacy-compat' and report on feedback notes added
16:39:25 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-54: doctype-legacy-compat from Sam Ruby on 2009-01-08 (public-html@w3.org from January 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
16:39:40 [jgraham]: Isn't the meeting at 17:00Z or am I confused about timezones?
16:40:20 [DanC]: agenda says 16:00Z ... checking the bridge reservation system...
16:41:00 [DanC]: DanC has changed the topic to: HTML WG telcon 15 Jan 17:00Z http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0001.html ; This channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
16:41:11 [DanC]: 17:00 per http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_2715
16:41:50 [anne]: jgraham, welcome to Linköping ;)
16:41:56 [DanC]: "12noon Boston time." -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/#telcon
16:41:57 [pimpbot]: Title: W3C HTML Working Group (at www.w3.org)
16:44:22 [MikeSmith]: MikeSmith has joined #html-wg
16:46:06 [MikeSmith]: action-75?
16:46:06 [trackbot]: ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2009-02-19 -- OPEN
16:46:06 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
16:46:07 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:49:24 [DanC]: wanna give a new ETA on action-87? (semantics-tables)
16:50:30 [DanC]: action-29 due 2009-09-30
16:50:30 [trackbot]: ACTION-29 Follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring due date now 2009-09-30
16:51:06 [MikeSmith]: trackbot, comment action-89 plan is to spec Origin header as an IETF Internet Draft, with Adam Barth as editor
16:51:06 [trackbot]: ACTION-89 Make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor notes added
16:51:23 [MikeSmith]: trackbot, close action-89
16:51:23 [trackbot]: ACTION-89 Make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor closed
16:52:57 [DanC]: hmm... maybe mark 89 pending review rather than closed, so we can talk about who takes the ball next on ISSUE-63 origin-req-scope?
16:53:34 [MikeSmith]: trackbot, comment action-87 Hixie responded; see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Dec/thread.html#msg175
16:53:34 [trackbot]: ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages notes added
16:53:35 [pimpbot]: Title: public-html@w3.org from December 2008: by thread (at lists.w3.org)
16:53:42 [MikeSmith]: DanC: yep
16:54:26 [DanC]: cool. marked 63 open while I'm at it
16:54:59 [MikeSmith]: action-89?
16:54:59 [trackbot]: ACTION-89 -- Michael(tm) Smith to make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor -- due 2008-12-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:54:59 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/89
16:55:00 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-89 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:55:09 [MikeSmith]: action-87?
16:55:09 [trackbot]: ACTION-87 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages -- due 2008-12-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
16:55:09 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/87
16:55:10 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-87 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
16:55:39 [DanC]: ACTION-87 due 20 Dec 2009
16:55:39 [trackbot]: ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now 20 Dec 2009
16:55:53 [Joshue]: Joshue has joined #html-wg
16:55:56 [DanC]: (date to match hixie's msg, for agenda sorting)
16:57:04 [MikeSmith]: trackbot, start meeting
16:57:06 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:57:08 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be HTML
16:57:08 [Zakim]: "HTML" matches HTML_WG()12:00PM, and Team_(html)16:00Z, trackbot
16:57:09 [trackbot]: Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
16:57:09 [trackbot]: Date: 15 January 2009
16:57:17 [anne]: DanC, hasn't Hixie done that already?
16:57:31 [DanC]: yup
16:58:05 [DanC]: action-89 due 6 Jan 2009
16:58:05 [trackbot]: ACTION-89 Make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor due date now 6 Jan 2009
16:58:15 [DanC]: (that's when the plan was figured out, I think)
16:58:55 [Joshue]: zakim, code?
16:58:55 [Zakim]: sorry, Joshue, I don't know what conference this is
16:59:11 [anne]: Zakim, this is html
16:59:11 [Zakim]: ok, anne; that matches HTML_WG()12:00PM
16:59:19 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, this will be HTML
16:59:19 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:59:33 [Zakim]: - +049251280aaaa
16:59:41 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:59:44 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #html-wg
17:00:01 [Zakim]: -??P6
17:00:03 [rubys]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:00:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sam, [Microsoft]
17:00:06 [DanC]: ACTION-87 due 20 Dec 2008
17:00:06 [trackbot]: ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now 20 Dec 2008
17:00:16 [Zakim]: + +049251280aabb
17:00:17 [Julian]: Zakim, +049251280aaaa is me
17:00:18 [Zakim]: sorry, Julian, I do not recognize a party named '+049251280aaaa'
17:00:19 [Zakim]: +[Apple]
17:00:24 [Julian]: Zakim, +049251280aabb is me
17:00:25 [Zakim]: +Julian; got it
17:00:28 [Zakim]: +??P14
17:00:29 [dsinger]: zakim, [Apple] has dsinger
17:00:29 [Zakim]: +dsinger; got it
17:00:45 [Joshue]: zaki, ??P14 is Joshue
17:00:48 [Zakim]: +Matt_May
17:00:58 [Zakim]: +??P18
17:00:58 [Joshue]: zakim, ??P14 is Joshue
17:01:00 [Zakim]: +Joshue; got it
17:01:06 [DanC]: (ideally, we would have updated those actions and sent out the contents of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda at T-24hrs, but hey... we'll get there)
17:01:06 [hsivonen]: Zakim, ??P18 is me
17:01:06 [Zakim]: +hsivonen; got it
17:01:07 [pimpbot]: Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:01:08 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
17:01:08 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:01:09 [Zakim]: +Mike
17:01:15 [Zakim]: +DanC
17:01:27 [ChrisWilson]: ChrisWilson has joined #html-wg
17:01:32 [Zakim]: +??P21
17:01:44 [DanC]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:44 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sam, [Microsoft], Julian, [Apple], Joshue, Matt_May, hsivonen, Mike, DanC, ??P21
17:01:47 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:01:48 [Lachy]: Zakim, I am P21
17:01:48 [Zakim]: sorry, Lachy, I do not see a party named 'P21'
17:01:51 [Lachy]: Zakim, I am ??P21
17:01:51 [Zakim]: +Lachy; got it
17:01:52 [ChrisWilson]: Zakim, Microsoft is me
17:01:52 [Zakim]: +ChrisWilson; got it
17:01:54 [Zakim]: + +1.408.536.aacc
17:01:55 [Zakim]: + +1.519.538.aadd
17:02:03 [DanC]: Topic: Convene, take roll, review agenda
17:02:12 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, drop Mike
17:02:12 [Zakim]: Mike is being disconnected
17:02:13 [Zakim]: -Mike
17:02:19 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike
17:02:19 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:02:20 [Zakim]: +Mike
17:02:30 [masinter]: masinter has joined #html-wg
17:02:44 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:02:44 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sam, ChrisWilson, Julian, [Apple], Joshue, Matt_May, hsivonen, DanC, Lachy, MurrayM, LarryM, Mike
17:02:46 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:03:09 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, drop Mike
17:03:09 [Zakim]: Mike is being disconnected
17:03:11 [Zakim]: -Mike
17:03:19 [ChrisWilson]: agenda?
17:03:46 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, who's making noise?
17:03:48 [DanC]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2009JanMar/0001.html
17:03:50 [pimpbot]: Title: Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Sam Ruby on 2009-01-13 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from January to March 2009) (at lists.w3.org)
17:03:55 [DanC]: and this is sorted: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
17:03:56 [pimpbot]: Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:03:57 [Zakim]: ChrisWilson, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisWilson (5%), Joshue (15%), LarryM (9%), DanC (29%)
17:04:00 [Joshue]: zakim, mute me
17:04:00 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
17:04:42 [ChrisWilson]: zakim, who's here?
17:04:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sam, ChrisWilson, Julian, [Apple], Joshue (muted), Matt_May, hsivonen, DanC, Lachy, MurrayM, LarryM
17:04:43 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike
17:04:45 [Zakim]: [Apple] has dsinger
17:04:46 [Zakim]: On IRC I see masinter, ChrisWilson, dsinger, Joshue, MikeSmith, rubys, gavin_, Lachy, Zakim, Sander, laplink, aaronlev, tlr, MichaelC, aroben, Julian, myakura, maddiin, ROBOd,
17:04:50 [Zakim]: ... darobin, heycam, sryo, krijnh, gsnedders, anne, timelyx, tH, shepazu, deltab, hober, Shunsuke, Dashiva, matt, Hixie, DanC, gavin, drry, xover, trackbot, inimino, hsivonen,
17:04:54 [Zakim]: ... wilhelm, jmb, Philip, RRSAgent, Yudai, phenny, pimpbot, takkaria, jgraham
17:04:56 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:04:56 [Zakim]: +Mike
17:04:59 [rubys]: yI'm here: first on the list... :-)
17:05:26 [rubys]: ChrisWilson: let's talk about the heartbeat requirement first
17:05:42 [MikeSmith]: q/
17:05:44 [MikeSmith]: q?
17:05:46 [rubys]: ChrisWilson: we need to get publication notes detailing changes from the last draft
17:05:55 [rubys]: ChrisWilson: any objections?
17:06:13 [anne]: Is it realistic to get a detailed changelog?
17:06:17 [rubys]: rubys: unknown: do we need a review first?
17:06:21 [Joshue]: I would like to see the poll on @summary go ahead before the next iternation of the spec or the draft is published.
17:06:35 [Julian]: s/rubys/LarryM/
17:06:43 [Julian]: s/unknown/LarryM/
17:06:56 [rubys]: ChirsWilson: no, it this isn't a new document
17:06:58 [DanC]: an update of html4-diff is much appreciated; i think the level of detail you typically come up with is fine, anne
17:07:34 [rubys]: LarryM: if you do an action with no significance, why do the action?
17:07:43 [rubys]: DanC: there is a lot of new forms material...
17:07:48 [dsinger]: dsinger has left #html-wg
17:07:53 [Zakim]: +Shepazu
17:07:56 [ChrisWilson]: Anne, how detailed are you considering pubnotes to be? I wasn't thinking checkin-by-checkin changelog; but the overview, e.g. webforms, would be important imop
17:07:58 [Joshue]: I don't like the fact that @summary has been dropped. This was a unilateral decision and I think the wider group should consulted. Without this process @summary wioll have little to no chance of being reinstated.
17:08:01 [ChrisWilson]: s/imop/imo
17:08:07 [rubys]: LarryM: I don't have any more comments...
17:08:13 [dsinger]: dsinger has joined #html-wg
17:08:26 [masinter]: yes
17:08:46 [DanC]: Larry, at one point I tried to be sure every section had been reviewed by 2+ HTML WG reviewers: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews
17:08:47 [ChrisWilson]: Josh, is that related to current topic or a new topic?
17:08:49 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML/SpecReviews - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
17:08:58 [Joshue]: zaki, unmute me
17:09:03 [Joshue]: zakim, unmute me
17:09:03 [Zakim]: Joshue should no longer be muted
17:09:27 [Lachy]: which attribute is being discussed?
17:09:37 [hsivonen]: Lachy, summary
17:09:37 [rubys]: Joshue: I think it important to resolve the summary issue before the next heartbeat document
17:09:44 [Lachy]: summary was never in the spec
17:09:51 [rubys]: DanC: I don't believe that summary was dropped since the last draft
17:09:54 [anne]: ChrisWilson, http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/#changelog
17:09:55 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML 5 differences from HTML 4 (at www.w3.org)
17:09:57 [DanC]: issue-32?
17:10:01 [trackbot]: ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
17:10:01 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
17:10:02 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:10:21 [anne]: ChrisWilson, that's about as much as I can commit to
17:10:27 [rubys]: DanC: does issue 32 need to be resolved before the next publication?
17:10:49 [hsivonen]: Joshue, why should issue 32 block the heartbeat when none of the other open issues are blocking?
17:11:07 [rubys]: DanC: I symphatize for the issue, but don't believe that it need to be solved before publication
17:11:25 [rubys]: ChirsW: I would like to move forward towards publishing, Dan, do we need a poll?
17:11:30 [Joshue]: Just giving my two cents.
17:11:38 [rubys]: DanC: no
17:11:56 [rubys]: ChrisW: I will send a mail out
17:12:08 [rubys]: zakim, mute Joshue
17:12:08 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
17:12:13 [masinter]: I would like the opportunity to review the draft in detail, and want to make sure that agreeing to publishing the working draft doesn't preclude raising issues
17:12:21 [ChrisWilson]: action ChrisWilson send mail to WG saying we will issue new WD due tomorrow
17:12:21 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-95 - Send mail to WG saying we will issue new WD due tomorrow [on Chris Wilson - due 2009-01-22].
17:12:24 [DanC]: issue: HTML 5 spec update after 10 June 2008
17:12:24 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-65 - HTML 5 spec update after 10 June 2008 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/65/edit .
17:12:29 [anne]: masinter, it never does
17:12:44 [anne]: masinter, publishing is just sending out a note for wider review
17:12:49 [masinter]: thanks, yes
17:13:12 [rubys]: ChrisW: publishing the working draft does not preclude raising issues
17:14:17 [rubys]: ChrisW: I want to do pending review actions first
17:14:59 [rubys]: what list are we all looking at?
17:15:07 [ChrisWilson]: action-87?
17:15:07 [trackbot]: ACTION-87 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages -- due 2008-12-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:15:07 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/87
17:15:08 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-87 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:15:12 [DanC]: Topic: ISSUE-20 (table-headers): Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec
17:15:14 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:16:10 [Joshue]: regarding @summary please note the request from the PF to keep the attribute http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0213.html
17:16:11 [pimpbot]: Title: Re: Request for PFWG WAI review of summary for tabular data from Al Gilman on 2008-08-06 (public-html@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:16:31 [anne]: rubys, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda maybe?
17:16:32 [pimpbot]: Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:16:33 [hsivonen]: q+
17:16:54 [DanC]: so http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H43.html is still non-conforming?
17:16:54 [rubys]: scribe is confused, issue-20 has an action which is due 2009-01-30
17:16:54 [pimpbot]: Title: H43: Using id and headers attributes to associate data cells with header cells in data tables | Techniques for WCAG 2.0 (at www.w3.org)
17:16:56 [ChrisWilson]: ack hsivonen
17:17:55 [gsnedders]: DanC: yes
17:18:14 [rubys]: DanC: would the validator flag the example?
17:18:18 [rubys]: Hsivonen: no
17:18:23 [rubys]: DanC: great!
17:19:30 [DanC]: "HTML 5 draft allows @headers on td but not on th."
17:19:34 [smedero]: smedero has joined #html-wg
17:19:38 [DanC]: is th/@headers allowed now?
17:19:38 [rubys]: Chris: I'll look into this, but I think we can close it
17:19:45 [anne]: DanC, yes
17:19:51 [DanC]: spiffy.
17:19:52 [anne]: DanC, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular-data.html#the-th-element
17:19:54 [rubys]: (many): yes
17:19:54 [pimpbot]: Title: 4.9 Tabular data HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org)
17:20:14 [masinter]: did Matt_May liaison get on agenda?
17:20:46 [rubys]: ChrisWilson: status of 87 is now closed, I'd like to leave 72 open to remind me to review it...
17:20:51 [cyns]: cyns has joined #html-wg
17:20:57 [Zakim]: + +1.425.467.aaee
17:21:04 [smedero]: Zakim, +1.425.467.aaee is me
17:21:05 [Zakim]: +smedero; got it
17:21:32 [DanC]: Topic: ISSUE-63 (origin-req-scope): Origin header: in scope? required for this release?
17:21:34 [ChrisWilson]: action-89?
17:21:34 [trackbot]: ACTION-89 -- Michael(tm) Smith to make a proposal to the WebApps WG that we take this on as a work item there, with Adam Barth as the editor -- due 2009-01-06 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:21:34 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/89
17:21:36 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-89 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:22:22 [rubys]: MikeSmith: consensus is that this doesn't belong in webapps
17:22:36 [DanC]: it was in the editors' draft as of http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=2524&to=2525
17:22:40 [pimpbot]: Title: (X)HTML5 Tracking (at html5.org)
17:22:42 [rubys]: MikeSmith: we can close 63
17:22:48 [rubys]: DanC: It was (previously) in the draft
17:22:54 [masinter]: action is to bring proposal to IETF?
17:22:54 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - is
17:22:58 [rubys]: MikeSmith: it still is, the plan is to move it out
17:23:08 [anne]: MikeSmith, really, did we discuss that? The Origin header is currently defined in a WebApps WG draft, after all...
17:23:15 [rubys]: DanC: I wouldn't mid a recorded decision that we aren't doing it
17:23:20 [Zakim]: -Mike
17:24:00 [rubys]: ChrisW: Is there something we need to do?
17:24:18 [rubys]: DanC: the consensus in the IETF liason call is that this belongs in the IETF
17:24:27 [rubys]: ChrisW: we can close this item
17:24:28 [masinter]: liaison need to track?
17:24:33 [rubys]: DanC: I'd like a decision!
17:24:40 [rubys]: ChrisW: I'll do that
17:24:52 [billyjackass]: billyjackass has joined #html-wg
17:24:58 [rubys]: Larry: do we need to track this?
17:25:08 [rubys]: DanC: I'm content that this is being tracked
17:25:14 [rubys]: ChrisW: I propose closing the issue and action
17:25:28 [rubys]: DanC: I think it has had enough attention
17:25:29 [masinter]: closing it sounds good to me
17:25:33 [billyjackass]: Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
17:25:33 [Zakim]: ok, billyjackass; the call is being made
17:25:35 [Zakim]: +Mike
17:25:55 [rubys]: DanC: Sam?
17:26:03 [rubys]: Sam: should there be an action to remove it from the spec?
17:26:19 [rubys]: Doug: would it be prudent to leave it in the spec pending some action?
17:26:30 [rubys]: Larry: I think it would be imprudent to keep it in the spec...
17:26:38 [rubys]: Doug: I'm fine either way..
17:26:53 [rubys]: larry: If we are deferring to the IETF, we are saying we aren't doing it.
17:26:58 [DanC]: (rubys, we've experimented with hixie carrying tracker actions, and the current status is that he doesn't; somebody else takes an action to work with hixie...)
17:27:25 [rubys]: MikeSmith: my action is done
17:27:49 [Julian]: q+
17:27:54 [rubys]: ChrisW: Is this actually referenced in the HTML spec?
17:27:57 [ChrisWilson]: ack Julian
17:27:58 [rubys]: DanC: it was
17:28:19 [rubys]: Julian: the spec currently has this text
17:28:22 [DanC]: Zakim, pick a victim
17:28:22 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose hsivonen
17:28:22 [Julian]: it's in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#origin
17:28:23 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML 5 (at dev.w3.org)
17:28:41 [rubys]: ChrisW: We need an action
17:29:00 [ChrisWilson]: action HSivonen to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec
17:29:00 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - HSivonen
17:29:12 [rubys]: Henri: I can take this action
17:29:20 [rubys]: topic: ISSUE-31 (missing-alt): What to do when a reasonable text equivalent is unknown/unavailable?
17:30:04 [anne]: I'm not sure I agree this is the right course of action. It only affects HTML forms... Didn't we establish this last time this was discussed?
17:30:05 [rubys]: Matt: what's the goal here?
17:30:29 [rubys]: DanC: I just want the overall plan for having it fixed in general, no need to worry about trying to get it fixed by the next draft
17:30:32 [DanC]: (added hsivonen to the issue tracking task force... stand by while I juggle a bit more...)
17:30:33 [anne]: Also, the WebApps WG are the ones currently defining the Origin header...
17:30:38 [rubys]: Matt: I can come back next week with status
17:30:54 [hsivonen]: q+
17:31:00 [DanC]: action: Dan (@@hsivonen) to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec
17:31:00 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-96 - (@@hsivonen) to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec [on Dan Connolly - due 2009-01-22].
17:31:01 [ChrisWilson]: ack hsivonen
17:31:12 [ChrisWilson]: whoops, didn't mean to hit enter yet.
17:31:16 [hsivonen]: q+
17:31:16 [ChrisWilson]: just a sec, Henri
17:31:19 [ChrisWilson]: thx
17:31:43 [DanC]: action-96?
17:31:43 [trackbot]: ACTION-96 -- Henri Sivonen to to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec -- due 2009-01-22 -- OPEN
17:31:43 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/96
17:31:44 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-96 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:31:51 [rubys]: Matt: this is a topic I don't expect the HTML spec to solve...
17:31:51 [DanC]: feel free to give a different ETA, hsivonen
17:32:06 [DanC]: a la: action-96 due 15 Feb 2009
17:32:27 [Joshue]: Just for the record http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute
17:32:32 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML/IssueAltAttribute - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
17:32:55 [DanC]: (taking a peek at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueAltAttribute to see how it does with NPOV...)
17:32:58 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML/IssueAltAttribute - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
17:33:11 [ChrisWilson]: ack hsivonen
17:33:24 [smedero]: This was the last editor's summary on @alt: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0759.html
17:33:25 [pimpbot]: Title: The alt="" attribute from Ian Hickson on 2008-08-26 (public-html@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
17:33:30 [rubys]: Matt: the current draft doesn't close the door on optional alts, and I'm unsure how to proceed from here.
17:33:32 [DanC]: (re HTML/IssueAltAttribute "latest published" is at risk of going stale ...)
17:33:59 [cyns]: q+
17:34:16 [rubys]: hsivonon: what should a piece of software do if a user is uncooperative? what are the sequences of bytes that a validator must flag as nonforming?
17:34:55 [shepazu]: q+
17:35:35 [Joshue]: @Dan, yeah it probably needs updating
17:35:36 [pimpbot]: Joshue: Huh?
17:35:50 [rubys]: hsivonen: my position is that a data format should allow a signal for an authoring tool to indicate that a user did not provide the data, and that should be conforming
17:36:08 [DanC]: Josue, so far, I don't see any critical NPOV problems in that wiki summary, though; we seem to be getting better at using the wiki
17:37:11 [Joshue]: Dan, yeah, it is a pretty good overview of these myriad issues and related offshoots.
17:37:14 [billyjackass]: trackbot, comment issue-63 see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081211#l-45 : Hixie: "splitting off the protocol part of websocket, the content-sniffing section, the uri section, and a brief definition of the Origin header, and submitting them as four tentative IDs"
17:37:14 [trackbot]: Sorry, billyjackass, I don't understand 'trackbot, comment issue-63 see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081211#l-45 : Hixie: "splitting off the protocol part of websocket, the content-sniffing section, the uri section, and a brief definition of the Origin header, and submitting them as four tentative IDs"'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:37:16 [ChrisWilson]: ack cyns
17:37:18 [pimpbot]: Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081211 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
17:37:19 [pimpbot]: Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081211 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
17:37:41 [DanC]: RRSAgent, pointer?
17:37:41 [RRSAgent]: See http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-html-wg-irc#T17-37-41
17:37:59 [rubys]: cynthia: what worked well in the past is the alt attribute is required, but an empty string is ok, why does that need to change?
17:38:09 [dsinger]: the discussion was that the empty string then becomes ambiguous: it's also used to say that an image is, for example, purely decorative
17:38:21 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
17:38:21 [hsivonen]: q+
17:38:21 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:38:25 [Zakim]: +Mike.a
17:38:31 [dsinger]: the UA cannot then tell the difference betwen "alt desirable but unavalable" and "alt wasn't needed"
17:38:59 [rubys]: cynthia: I agree with Matt that descriptions as to what is a valid alt tag belongs in WAI...
17:39:03 [ChrisWilson]: ack shepazu
17:39:30 [anne]: cyns, why? alt="" is not just an accessibility technique
17:39:49 [anne]: cyns, it's important for e.g. text browsers as well
17:40:11 [rubys]: Doug: henry? would you agree that if all you are validating is HTML, then you shouldn't flag a missing HTML, but a validator that also also was aware of WCAG would validate more?
17:40:33 [gsnedders]: s/henry/Henri/
17:40:33 [rubys]: hsivonen: yes
17:41:05 [cyns]: slight modification of summary of my statement: what is *good* or *appropriate* alt in a scenario is not a language issue, but an authoring issue. should not be in the language spec.
17:41:06 [rubys]: hsivonen: it may be a different class of message
17:41:20 [MikeSmith]: trackbot, comment action-96 see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081211#l-45 : Hixie: "splitting off the protocol part of websocket, the content-sniffing section, the uri section, and a brief definition of the Origin header, and submitting them as four tentative IDs"
17:41:20 [trackbot]: ACTION-96 to ensure editor removes Origin header: from spec notes added
17:41:23 [pimpbot]: Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081211 (at krijnhoetmer.nl)
17:41:25 [anne]: cyns, the language should tell authors how to write it, no?
17:41:33 [anne]: cyns, the language spec...
17:41:33 [rubys]: doug: fine, this may be a communication issue; not requiring it in the language doesn't mean that it can't be flagged
17:41:38 [rubys]: hsivonen: right
17:41:44 [ChrisWilson]: ack Matt
17:42:05 [cyns]: anne, the language should tell the author what is valid, but not necessarily what content is equivalent.
17:42:29 [takkaria]: I'm not sure what quite what use defining a language is if you don't define how to use it in certain situations
17:42:49 [rubys]: matt: DreamWeaver gives you options, but if you don't make a decision, no alt tag is generated, and I consider that a "pass"
17:43:28 [jgraham]: FWIW I guess not putting information about alt usage in HTML 5 will jsut mean fewer authors are exposed to that information
17:43:30 [rubys]: matt: not letting you save non-conforming documents is a non-starter in the marketplace
17:43:57 [masinter]: q+
17:44:02 [anne]: cyns, why not? the author needs to know how to write the language properly
17:44:36 [masinter]: this is a case where defining what the language *means* independently of how authors should author and browsers should interpret is a good idea
17:44:43 [anne]: cyns, the language specification should tell the author how to properly include an image, imo
17:44:54 [shepazu]: q+
17:44:59 [anne]: masinter, I don't really see why that matters
17:45:01 [shepazu]: q-
17:45:16 [rubys]: matt: having the validators be the gatekeeper has provided significant value in the past
17:45:17 [masinter]: alt="" means something different than 'no alt'.
17:45:21 [dsinger]: the assumption that HTML generation is coincident with a person who knows what the non-text content is like, is not tenable
17:45:29 [masinter]: different requirements on interpreters and generators
17:45:36 [cyns]: anne, examples, yes, but not every possible scenario. fine in an authoring guide, but it and WCAG should be single-sourced in that case
17:45:39 [anne]: masinter, sure, that's all in the specification
17:45:40 [adele]: adele has joined #html-wg
17:45:49 [ChrisWilson]: ack hsivonen
17:45:58 [anne]: cyns, but WCAG is for accessibility, doesn't cover e.g. search engines or text browsers
17:46:05 [takkaria]: how can you talk about waht a language means independently of how people should understand it?
17:46:32 [DanC]: (pointer to relevant part of ATAG docs, anyone?)
17:46:34 [rubys]: hsivonen: authoring tools should do what DreamWeaver does, and believe that that ATAC 2.0 should direct tools to do what DW does
17:46:38 [dsinger]: not all HTML is made by interactive tools...
17:46:43 [rubys]: s/ATAC/ATAG/
17:47:11 [shepazu]: so, if the government requires that content for government web content follow WCAG guidelines, then there will be market pressure for an authoring tool to force/encourage authors to add alt text, regardless of whether it is is for HTML or WCAG validity
17:47:37 [masinter]: there are different constraints on the content and on the tools for generating content
17:47:52 [rubys]: hsivonen: we shouldn't make HTML5 require that some streams that can be generated using ATAG guides be considered non-conforming
17:48:06 [masinter]: different constraints on visual display browsers and screen readers
17:48:21 [dsinger]: I agree with Julian; weare going over old ground that took hours on the mailing list
17:48:32 [Joshue]: +1 to Henri, I agree there should not be rubbish values inserted into content just to satisfy a validator
17:48:38 [ChrisWilson]: ack hsivonen
17:48:43 [ChrisWilson]: ack masinter
17:48:50 [DanC]: (julian, if you can point to a succinct summary, then that might save us time, but otherwise, yes, some redundant discussion is natural)
17:49:58 [rubys]: masinter: if you try to do everything in one specification, it will be hard to read and contain a lot of information that is irrelevant to many classes of users.
17:50:53 [dsinger]: Dan, I fear that no-one is satisfied (not even the editor)
17:51:02 [rubys]: matt: the WAI coordination group is planning on discussing this.
17:51:20 [rubys]: matt: I can report back next week on this and on summary
17:51:43 [DanC]: dsinger, I don't expect the editor to commit text he's not satisfied with... without an explicit note. is there one?
17:51:57 [rubys]: chris: I'll update the status
17:51:59 [Joshue]: summary attribute http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
17:52:00 [pimpbot]: Title: ISSUE-32 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:52:07 [rubys]: topic: ISSUE-37 (html-svg-mathml): Integration of SVG and MathML into text/html
17:52:08 [ChrisWilson]: action-94?
17:52:08 [trackbot]: ACTION-94 -- Doug Schepers to report back on SVG WG's integration proposal re: issue-37 -- due 2009-01-22 -- OPEN
17:52:08 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/94
17:52:09 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-94 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:52:26 [masinter]: and action 90 and action 92 should both be closed
17:52:27 [rubys]: @DanC: matt
17:52:28 [pimpbot]: rubys: Huh?
17:52:43 [DanC]: close action-90
17:52:43 [trackbot]: ACTION-90 Ask Matt May if he can help represent WAI WGs in the HTML WG closed
17:52:51 [rubys]: doug: I've moved the action back to next week
17:53:11 [rubys]: topic" ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat): tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html>
17:53:23 [ChrisWilson]: action-91
17:53:32 [Zakim]: -Joshue
17:53:39 [rubys]: rubys: proposed on the list, awaiting feedback from the editor
17:54:15 [DanC]: well, the "report on feedback " part isn't done
17:54:45 [rubys]: ChrisW: what's the current status
17:55:01 [rubys]: rubys: we have a proposed change, and waiting on the editor to make the change
17:55:24 [rubys]: DanC: sam, you've seen all the feedback you think you need to see
17:55:27 [rubys]: rubys: yes
17:56:41 [smedero]: q+
17:56:47 [DanC]: Topic: ISSUE-54 (doctype-legacy-compat): tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html>
17:56:52 [ChrisWilson]: ack smedero
17:56:55 [rubys]: ChrisW: what is limited quirks?
17:57:03 [DanC]: (rubys, you were close, but the bot looks for topic: , not topic" )
17:57:21 [DanC]: +1 empty string, i.e. <!DOCTYPE html "">
17:57:28 [Julian]: +1 as well
17:57:29 [anne]: ChrisWilson, limited quirks is a new name for "almost standards mode" (because it's now part of to be standard)
17:57:29 [DanC]: +0 legacy-compat
17:57:32 [Lachy]: no, it would by <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "">
17:57:46 [ChrisWilson]: thanks Lachy, I was going to say that.
17:57:49 [Julian]: +1 on empty string, +0 on legacy-compat
17:57:55 [hsivonen]: sigh, a moment ago we were so close to declaring consensus on "legacy-compat"
17:57:58 [DanC]: sorry, lachy, I'm perhaps going too fast
17:58:06 [ChrisWilson]: Henri, no I don't think we were
17:58:33 [Lachy]: I object to using the empty string version
17:58:34 [hsivonen]: I'm +1 on "legacy-compat" and -1 on ""
17:58:39 [rubys]: Lachland: does not support "", prefers xstl-compat or legacy-compat
17:58:49 [ChrisWilson]: s/Lachland/Lachlan
17:59:00 [ChrisWilson]: takkaria, I disagree
17:59:20 [rubys]: rubys: I've yet to hear anybody argue against legacy-compat
17:59:38 [shepazu]: how about "processor-compat"?
17:59:38 [gsnedders]: I'm +1 on "legacy-compat" and -1 on "" too
17:59:45 [masinter]: is the objection that the word 'legacy' is pejorative?
17:59:46 [Lachy]: the only problem with legacy-compat is that it's not entirely clear that it's meant for compat with legacy generator tools, like XSLT, rather than legacy consumers like browsers
17:59:48 [rubys]: chriswilson: I'm not happy with legacy-compat, it implies that something is wrong.
18:00:10 [rubys]: DanC: "" is better?
18:00:23 [hsivonen]: masinter, the string is pejorative on purpose to make people prefer <!DOCTYPE html>
18:00:26 [Julian]: +1 on the reasons ChrisW is giving.
18:00:31 [anne]: ChrisWilson, but something is wrong...
18:00:32 [rubys]: ChrisW: yes
18:00:51 [rubys]: ChrisW: I don't understand the goal of being perjorative on purpose
18:00:58 [masinter]: if you want to be perjorative, do it on your blog, not in the spec
18:00:58 [Zakim]: -MurrayM
18:01:27 [DanC]: Zakim, I hung up
18:01:27 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'I hung up', DanC
18:01:31 [DanC]: Zakim, drop me
18:01:31 [Zakim]: DanC is being disconnected
18:01:32 [Zakim]: -DanC
18:01:33 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
18:01:35 [masinter]: pejorative
18:02:03 [Zakim]: -LarryM
18:02:03 [masinter]: byeee
18:02:04 [shepazu]: s/perjorative/pejorative/
18:02:06 [rubys]: ChrisW: requests Sam to reply to the previous thread, and keep the action open.
18:02:07 [Zakim]: -Matt_May
18:02:15 [rubys]: Sam: OK
18:02:21 [Zakim]: -Lachy
18:02:22 [rubys]: ChrisW: I move that we adjourn
18:02:31 [rubys]: numerous seconds
18:02:32 [Zakim]: -Julian
18:02:33 [Zakim]: -smedero
18:02:34 [Zakim]: -hsivonen
18:02:36 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, drop Mike
18:02:36 [Zakim]: Mike is being disconnected
18:02:37 [rubys]: meeting adjourned...
18:02:38 [Zakim]: -ChrisWilson
18:02:38 [Zakim]: -Mike
18:02:45 [Zakim]: -Mike.a
18:02:53 [Zakim]: -Shepazu
18:03:05 [Zakim]: -[Apple]
18:03:06 [Zakim]: -Sam
18:03:08 [Zakim]: HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
18:03:10 [Zakim]: Attendees were Sam, +049251280aaaa, Julian, dsinger, Matt_May, Joshue, hsivonen, Mike, DanC, Lachy, ChrisWilson, +1.408.536.aacc, +1.519.538.aadd, MurrayM, LarryM, Shepazu,
18:03:12 [Zakim]: ... [Microsoft], smedero, Mike.a
18:03:44 [smedero]: rrsagent, generate minutes
18:03:44 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
18:04:50 [smedero]: rrsagent, make log public
18:05:48 [smedero]: Chair: ChrisWilson
18:05:54 [smedero]: rrsagent, generate minutes
18:05:54 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/15-html-wg-minutes.html smedero
18:05:55 [pimpbot]: Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 15 Jan 2009 (at www.w3.org)
18:25:29 [Sander]: Sander has joined #html-wg
18:42:59 [MikeSmith]: http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/blog/2009-01-15/there-is-no-invalid-html/
18:43:01 [pimpbot]: Title: BSBlog � Blog Archive � There is No Invalid HTML (at benjamin.smedbergs.us)
18:51:58 [anne]: my replies are in moderation
18:52:59 [arne]: arne has joined #html-wg
18:53:13 [anne]: does anyone have pointers to where the alt attribute was first proposed?
19:02:18 [smedero]: one of the early messages I've found: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q3/0985.html
19:02:19 [pimpbot]: Title: WWW-Talk Jul-Sep 1993: ALT tag used in IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
19:03:58 [anne]: ooh
19:04:08 [smedero]: there's also this
19:04:10 [smedero]: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q3/0985.html
19:04:11 [pimpbot]: Title: WWW-Talk Jul-Sep 1993: ALT tag used in IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
19:04:15 [smedero]: which is interesting...
19:04:53 [smedero]: it is a bit harder to find an email about it earlier archives though
19:05:47 [anne]: that's the same e-mail
19:06:08 [anne]: but yeah, it suggests alt was never introduced for accessibility but for text browsers, just like I thought
19:06:12 [smedero]: bah
19:06:16 [anne]: not that it matters much
19:06:41 [smedero]: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q4/0218.html
19:06:43 [pimpbot]: Title: WWW-Talk Oct-Dec 1993: ALT attribute & Conformance levels (at www.krsaborio.net)
19:06:45 [smedero]: sorry about that
19:07:32 [smedero]: i don't believe @alt came up in the original <img> proposal... but someone is welcome to dig through it again: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q1/0182.html
19:07:33 [pimpbot]: Title: WWW-Talk Jan-Mar 1993: proposed new tag: IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
19:09:19 [anne]: guess they didn't think alt and longdesc were that exciting and needed
19:10:38 [anne]: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q1/0183.html suggests <A HREF="..." INCLUDE>See photo</A> which comes close
19:10:39 [pimpbot]: Title: WWW-Talk Jan-Mar 1993: Re: proposed new tag: IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
19:11:09 [anne]: timbl had the same idea: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q1/0186.html
19:11:11 [pimpbot]: Title: WWW-Talk Jan-Mar 1993: Re: proposed new tag: IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
19:14:45 [smedero]: http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q3/0703.html
19:14:46 [pimpbot]: Title: WWW-Talk Jul-Sep 1993: Re: Lynx (at 1997.webhistory.org)
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19:15:27 [anne]: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/internet/www-archives/1993-q1/0257.html they went with <img> rather than <embed> because <embed> was too generic and would allow circular references
19:15:28 [pimpbot]: Title: WWW-Talk Jan-Mar 1993: Re: proposed new tag: IMG (at www.krsaborio.net)
19:16:08 [anne]: that e-mail also details why we ended up with Content-Type sniffing for <img>
19:16:40 [smedero]: yes
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19:20:59 [takkaria]: nice
19:21:05 [takkaria]: prior art for <video> over <object> there
19:30:37 [DanC]: anne, "for text browsers" seems like for accessibility to me. we didn't use the word "accessibility" until later
19:30:50 [Hixie]: btw re the various actions for people to ensure i do something -- filing a bug is usually an effective way of making sure i do something
19:31:01 [Hixie]: sorry for not following the tracker but there are only so many mechanisms i can use to manage myself
19:31:08 [DanC]: makes sense, hixie
19:31:18 [DanC]: no need to apologize
19:31:43 [DanC]: likewise, I don't follow bugzilla much; I rely on Mike to track it for me
19:32:04 [DanC]: and I make no apology :)
19:32:39 [Hixie]: :-)
19:32:43 [anne]: DanC, fair enough
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19:34:09 [DanC]: oh on the contrary... well, I cringe a bit when I read my own writing, but I very much appreciate poring over archives
19:34:15 [smedero]: :-)
19:34:29 [DanC]: I wish w3.org's archive of the really early stuff were better
19:37:22 [DanC]: Timmy's in the well again. (i.e. my dogs are all wiggly)
19:39:56 [DanC]: matt, did your question about liaison mechanics get answered?
19:40:13 [DanC]: oh... and did your action on alt get recorded? let's se...
19:41:56 [DanC]: you're not in the TF... fixing that...
19:44:01 [DanC]: rubys, when you accepted scribe duties, were you aware that "Minutes ... should be sent to public-html-wg-announce within a day or two."? (quoting from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/#telcon )
19:44:03 [pimpbot]: Title: W3C HTML Working Group (at www.w3.org)
19:45:47 [DanC]: action: matt to discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back
19:45:47 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - matt
19:45:58 [DanC]: trackbot, reload
19:46:04 [DanC]: trackbot, status
19:46:10 [DanC]: trackbot, help
19:46:10 [trackbot]: See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
19:46:18 [pimpbot]: Title: IRC Trackbot (at www.w3.org)
19:46:44 [DanC]: aha... "This can only be called from Team &channels but affects config on all channels."
19:47:37 [DanC]: trackbot, status
19:51:14 [DanC]: action: matt to discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back
19:51:14 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - matt
19:51:21 [DanC]: action: matthew to discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back
19:51:22 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-98 - Discuss missing-alt with the WAI CG and report back [on Matthew May - due 2009-01-22].
19:52:43 [DanC]: hmm... we didn't talk about "proprietary languages ", even though lmm's action is pending review... it's not connected to an issue. tracker agenda buglet
19:53:12 [DanC]: I think the stuff we did talk about it is at least as worthwhile
19:55:07 [DanC]: e.g.
19:55:10 [DanC]: action-62?
19:55:10 [trackbot]: ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization -- due 2009-01-18 -- OPEN
19:55:10 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62
19:55:11 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
19:56:52 [DanC]: matt, I don't think it's critical that you attend every week; feel free to revise your action due dates to say "I'm doing something else this week"
19:57:03 [smedero]: ACTION-78 ("proprietary languages") is still being discussed on public-html... seems fine that it was skipped this week.
19:57:14 [DanC]: yup
19:58:38 [DanC]: action-75?
19:58:38 [trackbot]: ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2009-02-19 -- OPEN
19:58:38 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
19:58:39 [pimpbot]: Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
20:00:45 [arne]: arne has left #html-wg
20:03:15 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #html-wg
20:04:51 [anne]: DanC, you're sure matt on IRC is not the W3C Matt?
20:05:26 [DanC]: ah... matt may vs matt womer
20:05:33 [DanC]: well, the tracker action has the right matt
20:07:41 [anne]: except that Matt is not on the WG afaict
20:08:01 [anne]: well, neither is
20:13:30 [DanC]: well, adobe joined the WG
20:15:28 [anne]: if it works for you I guess it's ok :)
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20:48:36 [pimpbot]: planet: Grandiosity <11http://intertwingly.net/blog/2009/01/15/Grandiosity>
20:58:01 [Hixie]: lordy
20:59:35 [gsnedders]: Hixie: You aren't allowed to use lordy. What use does it serve if you don't believe in there being a lordy? :P
21:01:26 [Hixie]: i don't believe in feces being holy either, but i use that phrase too
21:02:18 [Hixie]: in fact swearing by fictional characters seems far less offensive than swearing by something real :-)
21:19:21 [Lachy]: I was also surprised to hear the alt text issue come up in the telcon. I thought that issue was over
21:22:21 [Hixie]: i certainly haven't heard any new information
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21:25:56 [Lachy]: there were no new arguments made on the telcon. I'm not even sure what the purpose of the discussion was.
21:26:19 [Lachy]: hsivonen may know. He participated in that discussion more than I did.
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