14:36:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
14:36:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/14-xhtml-irc
14:36:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:36:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml
14:36:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
14:36:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:36:55 <trackbot> Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:36:55 <trackbot> Date: 14 January 2009
14:39:19 <Roland> Roland has joined #xhtml
14:39:46 <Roland> trackbot, start telcon
14:39:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:39:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
14:39:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:39:51 <trackbot> Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
14:39:51 <trackbot> Date: 14 January 2009
14:40:06 <Roland> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Jan/0024.html
14:40:15 <Roland> Chair: Roland
14:41:52 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #xhtml
14:41:53 <ShaneM> I thought we had said we wanted to talk about xhtml media types document first today
14:42:03 <ShaneM> (since we did not get to it last week)
14:42:20 <Roland> we did
14:42:38 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
14:42:43 <ShaneM> okay.   I think the mail message of interest is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Dec/0020.html
14:43:14 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
14:43:22 <Zakim> +Roland_Merrick
14:43:59 <Zakim> +McCarron
14:44:07 <ShaneM> zakim, mccarron is ShaneM
14:44:07 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
14:44:35 <Zakim> + +04670149aaaa
14:45:27 <Zakim> +??P10
14:45:57 <Tina> Zakim, +04670149aaaa is Tina
14:45:57 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
14:46:29 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:46:29 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:46:31 <Zakim> +Steven
14:46:38 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
14:47:21 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:47:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:47:42 <mgylling> Zakim, ??P10 is mgylling
14:47:42 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
14:49:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:49:49 <alessio> zakim, [IPcaller] is Alessio
14:49:49 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
14:50:41 <ShaneM> Scribe: ShaneM
14:50:55 <ShaneM> TOPIC : Status of CURIE CR
14:51:19 <ShaneM> Document should be published today or tomorrow.
14:51:19 <Zakim> +markbirbeck
14:51:59 <ShaneM> TOPIC: Status of transition for PERs 
14:52:31 <ShaneM> There is a gating problem - we need to update the XHTML Media Type document first. 
14:54:30 <ShaneM> Shane thought we could request it anyway, but Steven explained that thiis will happen quickly so we should not do it until we are ready.  Might be able to move on this depending on another agenda item.  Tabled.
14:54:40 <ShaneM> TOPIC: XHTML Media Types draft
14:54:51 <ShaneM> We received a late comment: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Dec/0020.html
14:55:25 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:55:44 <Steven> Shane: There a couple of comments here that are technical, but some are not
14:55:55 <Steven> ... these are issues for the W3C team to deal with
14:56:06 <Steven> ... we cannot respond to those parts
14:56:35 <Steven> ... he says that the doc talks about 4 media types, but really it is only about 2
14:56:52 <Steven> ... text/html and application/xhtml+xml
14:57:01 <Steven> ... the other two are not really needed
14:57:11 <Steven> Roland: Sounds reasonable, this is about recommended usage
14:57:29 <Steven> Shane: Good comment from this guy, as far as I can interpret
14:58:21 <Steven> Shane: He thinks we should rename the document to Media types for XHTML 1.x
14:58:33 <Steven> Roland: Sounds right
14:58:47 <Steven> Shane: Well Print and XHTML+RDFa wouldn't be covered then
15:00:15 <Steven> Roland: It is now called XHTML Media types
15:00:33 <Steven> Tina: Keep it as it is and say that it only applies to existing Recs
15:01:50 <Steven> Steven: Notes are never normative
15:02:31 <alessio> agree
15:02:59 <Steven> Steven: We should say that it just applies to existing recs
15:03:27 <Steven> Mark: We should not just fight the battles at each step anew
15:03:40 <Steven> ... we should make this document applicable for generic cases
15:04:08 <Steven> ... the text/html mime type is about switching into HTML mode
15:04:34 <Steven> ... authors shouldn't be discouraged from that if it is a reasonable deployment strategy
15:04:48 <Steven> Roland: There is more to this spec than just that
15:04:59 <Steven> ... it includes authoring guidelines
15:05:15 <Steven> Shane: No, Appx A gives hints for any version
15:05:57 <Steven> Mark: it is more political than technical
15:06:32 <Steven> ... the question is in my mind, is it OK to switch the browser to HTML mode, and since people are oding that anyway, it is
15:06:42 <Steven> s/oding/doing
15:07:09 <Steven> Tina: Shouldn't we just address the technical issues?
15:08:04 <Steven> Steven: I suggest that we say that it applies to existing recommendations
15:09:10 <ShaneM> Proposed text: "The suggestions in this document are relevant to all XHTML Family Recommendations at the time of its publication."
15:09:34 <alessio> @shane +1
15:10:36 <Steven> Roland: What do the authors who read this document want?
15:11:51 <ShaneM> q+
15:11:54 <Steven> Mark: On the backplane XG there is a discussion about using Ubiquity to implement XHTML2
15:12:08 <Steven> ... well to do that you need to be able to use the text/html mime type
15:14:42 <ShaneM> q-
15:14:45 <Steven> Shane: I proposed a sentence above
15:14:54 <Steven> "The suggestions in this document are relevant to all XHTML Family Recommendations at the time of its publication."
15:16:16 <Steven> Tina: I agre, keep the title, and add the sentence
15:16:21 <Steven> s/agre/agree/
15:17:15 <alessio> agree
15:17:18 <Steven> Roland: I propose that too
15:17:36 <Steven> So resolved
15:18:27 <Steven> Shane: An early question asks us to say that it is only the opinion of the WG
15:18:40 <Steven> Steven: No need for that. The information comes from recommendations
15:18:47 <Steven> Shane: Anyway it says it comes from our WG
15:19:05 <Steven> Shane: He asks about text/xml and application/xml
15:19:14 <Steven> ... we don't care about those, right?
15:19:45 <Steven> ... he maintains that we don't need the space before trailing slashes on modern browsers.
15:19:56 <Steven> Steven: True, but not to the point
15:20:26 <Steven> Shane: He also complains that we are suggesting that authors produce invalid HTML4
15:20:33 <Steven> Tina: He's wrong, it is valid
15:20:54 <Steven> Mark: Anyway there is no agreed way to validate HTML4
15:21:04 <Steven> Tina: Well, you can according to the DTD
15:22:04 <Steven> Shane: Finally about named entities
15:22:37 <Steven> ... which may not work in generic XML parsers
15:22:46 <Steven> ... I don't think we care for this document
15:23:15 <Steven> Shane: Then comes the political stuff that has nothing to do with this document
15:25:30 <Steven> Steven: The word XHTML does not appear in there charter
15:25:36 <Steven> s/there/their/
15:26:54 <Steven> Shane: I request that Steven raise the issue of the use of the name XHTML within the team
15:27:03 <Steven> Steven: Three is a domain discussion coming up
15:27:14 <Steven> Shane: I propose we publish this document with today's changes
15:27:30 <Tina> +1
15:27:35 <alessio> +1
15:27:38 <Steven> +1
15:27:47 <markbirbeck> +1
15:27:57 <mgylling> +1
15:28:12 <Steven> RESOLUTION: Publish XHTML Media Types with topday's changes
15:28:20 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:28:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/14-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:28:41 <Steven> Scribe: Shane
15:28:51 <Steven> scribenick: shanem
15:29:36 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009Jan/0001.html
15:30:19 <ShaneM> TOPIC: HTML 5 and XHTML 2 combined
15:30:32 <ShaneM> There is a discussion thread started at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009Jan/0001.html
15:31:11 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: Benjamin has made some interesting comments that revealed existing browser behavior mark was not previously aware of.
15:31:35 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: it seems that there are people out there who understand what we are trying to achieve with XHTML 2.  
15:32:17 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: there might be a way to make our message clearer.  For example there might be confusion about what "deprecated" means.  Can we help clear that up?  
15:32:22 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
15:32:32 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Tina (40%), Alessio (9%)
15:32:41 <Steven> zakim, mute alessio 
15:32:41 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted
15:32:45 <Tina> Zakim, mute me
15:32:45 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted
15:33:03 <ShaneM> Roland: thinks this is an interesting thread.  
15:33:44 <ShaneM> Roland: he points out that he cannot find anything in web space that describes the goals and philosophy of XHTML 2.
15:34:01 <ShaneM> Steven: willing to take an action to draft a document.
15:34:19 <ShaneM> ACTION: Steven to write a draft of a short document on the philosophy of xhtml 2 for use in web space.
15:34:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Write a draft of a short document on the philosophy of xhtml 2 for use in web space. [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-01-21].
15:34:25 <markbirbeck> http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2005/01/xhtml-2-as-universal-document.html
15:34:27 <markbirbeck> :)
15:35:34 <ShaneM> Roland: Is there a way to define a profile of HTML5 that maps to XHTML 2?  And would that be valuable?
15:36:46 <ShaneM> Steven: Does not think it is as difficult as it appears.  We broke XHTML2 up into other bits so we could produce them separately.  Completing XHTML 2 is just a matter of collecting those bits and we are done!
15:37:26 <ShaneM> Steven: He does not think we need to refer to HTML 5 in order to deploy XHTML 2.  There is a client-side strategy via Ubiquity, and server-side strategies that involve transformation.
15:37:51 <ShaneM> Steven: "HTML  is the assembly language that we are compiling down to."
15:39:00 <ShaneM> Roland: The difference is that XHTML 2 is a very large language spec.
15:39:42 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: HTML 5 has borrowed ideas from XHTML 2. That's fine.  The bits that Mark finds frustrating is that they incorporate those ideas rather than referencing the modules that we have already produced.
15:40:12 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: Basing XHTML 2 on HTML 5 seems circular.
15:41:22 <ShaneM> Roland: we need to try to support our audience (paraphrase)
15:42:33 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: We can't ignore how we got here.  The modules are the basis of creating future languages and having extensibility.  We can accelerate the process by using this architecture.  A monolithic document makes that extension challenging.
15:43:38 <ShaneM> Roland: profiling doesn't just mean subsetting.  You can subset and extend.
15:43:52 <alessio> yes
15:45:37 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: we could produce a document that describes the rendering behavior of the various html document types (?)
15:46:35 <ShaneM> markbirbeck: The HTML 5 approach goes against the general modular philosophy that the W3C has pursued for years.  People want to merge things together in ways that we will never imagine.
15:47:46 <ShaneM> Roland: The thought process should be "what do we need to do to XHTML 2 to help ease deployment?"  Are there things we should rethink based upon new information?
15:49:08 <ShaneM> Steven: We have done this evaluation at times.  There are things in XHTML 2 that are unavoidably different than HTML 4 / 5.  XForms, XML Events
15:49:23 <alessio> completely agree
15:49:48 <ShaneM> Steven: The HTML 5 approach to events is not scalable to the future, for example.
15:51:32 <ShaneM> Roland: Can we take the time to evaluate where we feel that HTML 5 and XHTML 2 have common ground?
15:53:26 <ShaneM> Will return to this next week.
15:53:44 <ShaneM> ShaneM: and Welcome to the editing team, Markus!
15:53:55 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
15:53:57 <alessio> bye :)
15:53:58 <Zakim> -Steven
15:54:01 <Zakim> -Tina
15:54:04 <Zakim> -Alessio
15:54:09 <Zakim> -mgylling
15:54:10 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:55:03 <Zakim> This conference is in overtime; all ports must be freed
15:59:10 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Roland, in IA_XHTML2()9:45AM
15:59:12 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
15:59:16 <Zakim> Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, Tina, Steven, mgylling, Alessio, markbirbeck
15:59:50 <Roland> Roland has left #xhtml
16:03:10 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/14-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
17:00:10 <Steven> Shane, Nick and Leigh in XForms have relax implementations in some form or another, Leigh will contact you
17:59:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml