19:29:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:29:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-svg-irc
19:30:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:30:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
19:30:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:30:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now
19:30:04 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:30:04 <trackbot> Date: 08 January 2009
19:30:33 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started
19:30:35 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:32:08 <Zakim> +??P5
19:32:31 <Zakim> +ChrisL
19:32:34 <ed> Zakim, ??P5 is me
19:32:34 <Zakim> +ed; got it
19:32:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:33:01 <heycam> Zakim, +[ is me
19:33:01 <Zakim> sorry, heycam, I do not recognize a party named '+['
19:33:05 <heycam> Zakim, [
19:33:05 <Zakim> I don't understand '[', heycam
19:33:06 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
19:33:06 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
19:33:13 <Zakim> -ed
19:33:28 <Zakim> -ChrisL
19:33:34 <Zakim> +??P5
19:33:54 <Zakim> +Shepazu.a
19:33:57 <Zakim> -Shepazu.a
19:34:00 <Zakim> -Shepazu
19:34:10 <Zakim> + +39.524.9.aaaa
19:34:13 <Zakim> +Shepazu
19:34:38 <ed> Zakim, ??P5 is me
19:34:38 <Zakim> +ed; got it
19:35:01 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
19:35:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shepazu, heycam, ed, +39.524.9.aaaa
19:35:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, ChrisL, ed, trackbot, heycam, anthony, shepazu, ed_work
19:35:12 <ChrisL> zakim, +39 is me
19:35:12 <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
19:36:01 <ed> Zakim, pick a victim
19:36:01 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed
19:36:08 <ed> Zakim, pick a victim
19:36:08 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed
19:36:12 <ed> Zakim, pick a victim
19:36:12 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Shepazu
19:36:28 <ChrisL> zakim, good doggie
19:36:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'good doggie', ChrisL
19:37:00 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0011.html
19:37:30 <ed> Chair: ED
19:37:43 <ed> Scribe: shepazu
19:37:49 <ed> Scribenick: shepazu 
19:39:16 <shepazu> Topic: Agenda for Sydney F2F
19:40:11 <shepazu> ed: several possible topics...
19:40:39 <shepazu> ... errata, filters, layout, compositing, modules, next version of the spec...
19:40:50 <shepazu> ... what's happening with Print spec?
19:41:11 <shepazu> ChrisL: Print spec is suffering from lack of implementations...
19:41:26 <shepazu> .. open source folks are interested in the color profiles
19:41:44 <shepazu> ed: how can we speed up the process?
19:42:19 <shepazu> ChrisL: I've talked to folks from Scribus and Inkscape, but they are worried about the spec changing under them
19:42:44 <shepazu> ... they got burned before with the textflow stuff we changed to please to the browser vendors
19:43:05 <shepazu> ed: what phase is it in?
19:43:09 <shepazu> ChrisL: LC
19:43:34 <shepazu> shepazu: let's move it to CR
19:43:37 <ChrisL> ended Feb 2008. Next step is CR
19:43:46 <shepazu> ed: yes, we'll add that to the agenda
19:50:09 <shepazu> ed: any other topics?
19:50:26 <shepazu> heycam: I'm going to try to write up some layout stuff to discuss concretely
19:50:56 <shepazu> ed: do we need to publish more tests for SVG Tiny 1.2?
19:51:24 <shepazu> heycam: good question, I've been looking at bugs and we do need to make some fixes to the test suite
19:52:22 <Zakim> -ed
19:53:19 <ed__> ed__ has joined #svg
19:53:33 <Zakim> +??P2
19:53:37 <shepazu> shepazu: we do need more tests, but maybe new implementers can help contribute tests
19:53:41 <ed__> s/do we need to publish more tests for SVG Tiny 1.2?/do we need to publish another snapshot of (more tests) of the SVG Tiny 1.2 testsuite anytime soon?/
19:54:32 <ed__> Zakim, ??P2 is me
19:54:32 <Zakim> +ed__; got it
19:56:08 <shepazu> shepazu: I think we need to put a priority on 2.5D and other things that we are coordinating with the CSS WG on
19:57:17 <shepazu> ChrisL: some of the CSS proposals have been checked into CVS
19:57:43 <shepazu> ... Bjoern has remarked that they are underspecified
20:00:18 <shepazu> ed__: I will put those agenda items on the wiki page
20:00:51 <ed> ed has joined #svg
20:00:53 <shepazu> Topic: ISSUE-2181
20:00:59 <ChrisL> issue-2181?
20:00:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-2181 -- Look at Solutions for 'filter' Property Conflict with IE Filters -- OPEN
20:00:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2181
20:01:08 <Zakim> -ed__
20:01:25 <shepazu> ed__: I couldn't find WG discussion about this
20:01:46 <shepazu> ChrisL: there was discussion on the public lists about this
20:02:34 <shepazu> [chris summarizes public discussions]
20:02:54 <Zakim> -ChrisL
20:03:22 <ed__> ed__ has joined #svg
20:03:41 <Zakim> +??P0
20:03:51 <ed__> Zakim, ??P0 is me
20:03:51 <Zakim> +ed__; got it
20:04:17 <heycam> http://markmail.org/message/p4qkphrqkhilszxq
20:06:16 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2004Nov/0257.html
20:06:22 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2004Nov/0259.html
20:08:26 <shepazu> ed_work: we should coordinate with CSS and HCG on this
20:08:38 <shepazu> shepazu: and the HTML WG
20:09:13 <ed__> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/09/08/microsoft-css-vendor-extensions.aspx
20:09:16 <shepazu> heycam: IE is making changes in IE8, we should look at that
20:09:26 <shepazu> ed_work: they are now supporting -ms-filter, too, so that's a step in the right direction
20:10:07 <shepazu> me @ChrisL: can you rejoin?
20:10:30 <ed__> element.style.filter = "foobar"
20:11:32 <ed__> some people "detect IE" by checking if element.style.filter is defined
20:12:45 <shepazu> shepazu: let's talk about this at the f2f
20:12:57 <Zakim> + +95249aabb
20:14:54 <shepazu> ChrisL: my suggestion is that we find out what hackers are doing when using that hack, and give them a better way to do it
20:16:53 <shepazu> ChrisL: this is not something that happens in a stylesheet, it's a test in script
20:17:59 <ChrisL> its used to do opacity, and transparency in PNG images. Its only for old versions of IE, too - IE7 and up do PNG correctly
20:18:00 <shepazu> ... and otherwise just hide the filters test when it's only a test
20:19:16 <shepazu> ed_work: I think your proposal is the best way forward
20:19:18 <shepazu> ... and we could push IE to drop the proprietary filter thing
20:19:25 <shepazu> Topic: SVG 1.1 Errata
20:20:36 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#definition-character-cell
20:21:30 <ed__> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#currenttranslate-currentscale-nested-svg
20:22:10 <shepazu> I need to finish all those actions
20:22:34 <shepazu> ed__: we should set aside time to finish this up at the F2F
20:23:07 <shepazu> ... and publish the errata and SVG1.1 2nd edition
20:23:45 <shepazu> ... it would be nice to have all the errata done before then
20:24:09 <shepazu> ... it would require new tests
20:24:13 <shepazu> ... is that too optimistic
20:24:16 <shepazu> ?
20:24:38 <shepazu> ChrisL: we've been going through them quickly
20:26:15 <shepazu> ed__: we could triage them and do some of them in the next version of the spec
20:26:54 <shepazu> ChrisL: it would be useful to have a 2nd ed, especially where it brings it into line with SVG 1.2
20:27:23 <shepazu> Topic: SVG Tiny 1.2
20:27:35 <shepazu> Topic: SVG Tiny 1.2 Errata
20:30:37 <shepazu> ChrisL: going forward, we should just be use the same syntax for all lists: optional comma, optional space
20:30:52 <shepazu> shepazu: heycam and I had come to a similar conclusion
20:31:08 <shepazu> ChrisL: I noted that you wanted to make exception for URIs
20:31:22 <shepazu> ... since they can have commas in them
20:31:29 <shepazu> ... but they can also have spaces
20:31:49 <shepazu> ... so a better solution is simply to require that spaces and commas be escaped
20:32:07 <shepazu> ed__: should we make this an errata item?
20:32:53 <ed__> s/errata item?/errata item for SVG 1.1?/
20:33:27 <shepazu> shepazu: we would be changing conformance criteria for SVG 1.1 UAs?
20:33:46 <shepazu> ChrisL: yes, but older content would still be conforming
20:36:23 <shepazu> shepazu: and ASV is less relevant now...
20:36:30 <shepazu> ChrisL: and has been for some time
20:37:44 <shepazu> heycam: so this affects the 1.2 errata... it should now say any combination of comma or whitespace
20:38:22 <ChrisL> s/they can also have/IRIs can also have/
20:39:25 <shepazu> shepazu: what about viewBox?
20:40:28 <shepazu> heycam: in the DOM, it's exposed as an animated rect, but in the spec it's a list of numbers, and that it has to have 4 members
20:40:45 <shepazu> ... so it's not an arbitrary list of values
20:41:02 <shepazu> shepazu: that's also the case for transforms
20:43:12 <ed__> Proposed resolution: for 1.2T the 'g1', 'g2' and 'glyphname' attributes can be comma-whitespace separated 
20:44:49 <shepazu> heycam: how about using "list of xml names"?
20:45:07 <shepazu> ChrisL: that wouldn't allow a digit at the beginning
20:45:24 <shepazu> general agreement
20:45:40 <ed__> for the 'u1' attribute : Comma is the separator character; thus, to kern a comma, specify the comma as part of a range of Unicode characters or as a glyph name using the 'g1' attribute.
20:47:43 <shepazu> shepazu: but uDOM is typed, which list of string doesn't give us
20:48:44 <heycam> heycam: we state explicitly in the udom appendix what types different xml attributes are exposed as, so changing the attribute list syntax in use shouldn't affect that
20:48:58 <heycam> s/in use/in use by a particular attribute/
20:50:00 <heycam> http://mcc.id.au/temp/2009/font-name-list-syntax.svg
20:50:04 <shepazu> shepazu: I'd like to check that this is okay with SVG 1.1 implementers
20:50:33 <shepazu> heycam: we could start by compiling a list of affected attributes
20:50:40 <shepazu> ChrisL: agreed
20:57:32 <shepazu> shepazu: smil semicolon-separated values are essentially lists of lists; that could be a datatype
21:00:12 <shepazu> we will propose changing values in SVG 1.1 to use a uniform list style, research what changes this would entail, and get feedback from SVG 1.1 implementers 
21:02:02 <shepazu> Resolution: we will propose changing values in SVG 1.1 to use a uniform list style, research what changes this would entail, and get feedback from SVG 1.1 implementers
21:03:07 <Zakim> - +95249aabb
21:03:08 <Zakim> -heycam
21:03:09 <Zakim> -ed__
21:03:16 <shepazu> trackbot, end telcon
21:03:16 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:03:16 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, ChrisL, ed, [IPcaller], heycam, Shepazu.a, +39.524.9.aaaa, ed__, +95249aabb
21:03:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:03:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-svg-minutes.html trackbot
21:03:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:03:18 <RRSAgent> I see no action items