IRC log of forms on 2009-01-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:43:15 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #forms

15:43:15 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-forms-irc

15:43:21 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make log public

15:43:40 [John_Boyer]

Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference

15:43:53 [John_Boyer]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jan/0001.html

15:44:18 [John_Boyer]

Chair: John

15:44:22 [John_Boyer]

Scribe: Leigh

15:44:27 [John_Boyer]

Regrets: Erik

15:44:55 [Zakim]

HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started

15:45:01 [wiecha]

wiecha has joined #forms

15:45:02 [Zakim]

HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended

15:45:03 [Zakim]

Attendees were

15:45:16 [Zakim]

HTML_Forms()10:45AM has now started

15:45:23 [Zakim]

+ +1.919.254.aaaa

15:45:39 [wellsk]

zakim, aaaa is wellsk

15:45:39 [Zakim]

+wellsk; got it

15:45:43 [Zakim]

+John_Boyer

15:45:48 [Zakim]

+[IBM]

15:45:59 [wiecha]

zakim, [IBM] is wiecha

15:45:59 [Zakim]

+wiecha; got it

15:46:12 [Zakim]

+??P5

15:46:14 [John_Boyer]

zakim, code?

15:46:14 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), John_Boyer

15:46:31 [prb]

zakim, i am paul

15:46:31 [Zakim]

sorry, prb, I do not see a party named 'paul'

15:47:12 [klotz]

klotz has joined #forms

15:47:30 [John_Boyer]

John_Boyer has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jan/0001.html

15:47:41 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

15:47:41 [Zakim]

On the phone I see wellsk, John_Boyer, wiecha, ??P5

15:47:43 [Zakim]

On IRC I see klotz, wiecha, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, wellsk, prb, Steven, nick, trackbot

15:48:19 [prb]

zakim, i am ??P5

15:48:19 [Zakim]

+prb; got it

15:48:38 [Zakim]

+Leigh_Klotz

15:48:47 [nick]

nick has joined #forms

15:49:13 [nick]

zakim, code?

15:49:13 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick

15:49:20 [John_Boyer]

scribenick: klotz

15:49:49 [Zakim]

+Nick_van_den_Bleeken

15:49:57 [nick]

zakim, who is here?

15:49:57 [Zakim]

On the phone I see wellsk, John_Boyer, wiecha, prb, Leigh_Klotz, Nick_van_den_Bleeken

15:49:59 [Zakim]

On IRC I see nick, klotz, wiecha, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, wellsk, prb, Steven, trackbot

15:50:06 [nick]

zakim, mute me

15:50:06 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted

15:50:48 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

15:50:48 [Zakim]

On the phone I see wellsk, John_Boyer, wiecha, prb, Leigh_Klotz, Nick_van_den_Bleeken (muted)

15:50:50 [Zakim]

On IRC I see nick, klotz, wiecha, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, wellsk, prb, Steven, trackbot

15:51:39 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

15:51:39 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:51:41 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:52:20 [nick]

I'm on vacation the 21st

15:52:39 [John_Boyer]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Jan/0001.html

15:55:55 [unl]

unl has joined #forms

15:56:49 [unl]

zakim, code?

15:56:49 [Zakim]

the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), unl

15:57:36 [nick]

I'll make the action item list tomorrow

15:58:51 [Zakim]

+ +1.307.544.aabb

15:59:26 [unl]

zakim, +1.307.544.aabb is me

15:59:26 [Zakim]

+unl; got it

15:59:36 [unl]

zakim, mute me

15:59:36 [Zakim]

unl should now be muted

16:00:40 [klotz]

ACTION: John Boyer to review/publish EMC implementation report http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2008Dec/0020.html

16:00:40 [trackbot]

Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John

16:00:40 [trackbot]

Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)

16:01:33 [klotz]

ACTION: Steven Pemberton to invite EMC to join Forms WG.

16:01:33 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-503 - Pemberton to invite EMC to join Forms WG. [on Steven Pemberton - due 2009-01-14].

16:05:13 [klotz]

ACTION: Keith Wells to examine Firefox XPI, and EMC implementation reports and find out which test cases are not covered by both tests.

16:05:13 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-504 - Wells to examine Firefox XPI, and EMC implementation reports and find out which test cases are not covered by both tests. [on Keith Wells - due 2009-01-14].

16:08:08 [klotz]

ACTION: Keith Wells to confirm power() function in Firefox and request its implementation if necessary.

16:08:08 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-505 - Wells to confirm power() function in Firefox and request its implementation if necessary. [on Keith Wells - due 2009-01-14].

16:18:36 [John_Boyer]

zakim, who is here?

16:18:36 [Zakim]

On the phone I see wellsk, John_Boyer, wiecha, prb, Leigh_Klotz, Nick_van_den_Bleeken (muted), Steven, unl (muted)

16:18:36 [Steven]

nick?

16:18:38 [nick]

zakkim, unmute me

16:18:38 [Zakim]

On IRC I see unl, nick, klotz, wiecha, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, wellsk, prb, Steven, trackbot

16:18:44 [Steven]

ack nick

16:18:45 [nick]

zakim, unmute me

16:18:47 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken was not muted, nick

16:19:19 [nick]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/model/bind/index-all.html

16:19:28 [nick]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/model/bind/index-all.html#N65990

16:22:10 [nick]

<bind nodeset="//total"> <mip name="readonly" value="true()" type="xs:boolean" cascade="true" combine-cascade="$local-value or $cascaded-value"/> </ bind>

16:29:24 [unl]

wouldn't it be easier to just have a cascade attribute, which specifies an 'and' or an 'or' combinator?

16:30:48 [wiecha]

i don't recall whether we decided to bite off custom mips for this iteration of the bind module?

16:41:54 [wiecha]

i would prefer to keep this module at the level of current, 1.1, function

16:42:11 [wiecha]

do we need to talk about cascade at all then?

16:43:43 [wiecha]

separating def and use would be great

16:46:11 [klotz]

Minutes so far at http://xformstest.org/2009-01-07.txt

16:46:45 [Zakim]

-Leigh_Klotz

16:46:59 [John_Boyer]

scribe: Charlie

16:47:00 [wiecha]

Scribe: wiecha

16:47:01 [nick]

<mip name="my:readonly" value="true()" type="xs:boolean" cascade="true" combine-cascade="$local-value or $cascaded-value"/>

16:47:06 [John_Boyer]

scribenick: wiecha

16:47:17 [wiecha]

scribe: Charlie

16:47:19 [nick]

<bind nodeset="//total" my:readonly="true()">

16:48:12 [wiecha]

John: second issue is child elements representing MIPs was desired to get around context "hack", cleaner syntax

16:48:27 [wiecha]

John: not convinced we need this for 1.2

16:48:39 [John_Boyer]

<bind nodeset="sum">

16:48:51 [John_Boyer]

<bind context=".." calculate="a+b" />

16:48:53 [John_Boyer]

</bind>

16:49:45 [John_Boyer]

initial inscope eval context is "sum" node

16:49:47 [wiecha]

John: intent is for the sum to be attached to the initial evaluation context, e.g. sum

16:49:59 [John_Boyer]

inscope eval context is parent of sum due to context="..

16:50:00 [John_Boyer]

"

16:50:29 [John_Boyer]

calculate evaluates in inscope eval context (parent of sum), but result goes to initial inscope eval context (sum)

16:51:11 [wiecha]

Nick: that's how it's now specified in the bind module

16:51:23 [John_Boyer]

<bind nodeset="sum">

16:51:34 [John_Boyer]

<calculate context=".." value="a+b" />

16:51:36 [John_Boyer]

</bind>

16:51:52 [John_Boyer]

cleaner syntax because calculate child elem not expected to have a nodeset attr

16:52:03 [John_Boyer]

<bind nodeset="sum">

16:52:18 [John_Boyer]

<mip name="calculate" context=".." value="a+b"/>

16:52:20 [John_Boyer]

</bind>

16:53:29 [wiecha]

John: so we already in essence can do this using nested binds rather than introducing the mip element

16:53:30 [wiecha]

+1

16:53:40 [unl]

+1

16:53:44 [wiecha]

to holding off

16:53:47 [wiecha]

on custom mips

16:53:53 [prb]

+1 to waiting

16:53:55 [Steven]

+1

16:53:57 [unl]

custom mips is for later ;-)

16:53:59 [Steven]

Less is more :-p

16:54:04 [wiecha]

sooner is more

16:54:46 [wiecha]

John: would need new events to signal custom MIP changes too

16:54:57 [wiecha]

John: all is good stuff but feels like future features

16:55:28 [wiecha]

Nick: downside is that the bind module doesn't add much function then, just says the MIPs are pre-existing

16:56:00 [wiecha]

John: oh, so the other problem is that we have a bind module that creates a nodeset but bind module itself can't talk about particular MIPs since they're elsewhere in other modules

16:56:13 [wiecha]

John: that just makes a smaller module, which should be ok

16:56:27 [wiecha]

Nick: if ok, then I'll remove it again

16:56:43 [wiecha]

John: then we should adjust the wiki to conform to doing custom MIPs later

16:57:04 [wiecha]

John: we originally did this to have cleaner syntax for context attr

16:57:26 [wiecha]

John: so in each of the relevant, readonly, etc modules, they need to add particular attributes to the bind element

16:57:33 [wiecha]

John: and say in prose how that MIP behaves

16:58:02 [wiecha]

Nick: then when we do the custom MIPs formally, the existing ones could be recast in that formalism

16:58:28 [wiecha]

he;'s talking about the future version

16:58:32 [Zakim]

-unl

16:59:14 [Zakim]

+unl

16:59:23 [unl]

zakim, mute me

16:59:23 [Zakim]

unl should now be muted

17:00:46 [wiecha]

John: bind module will talk about MIPs but not define how they are created...but can point to the other modules

17:01:06 [wiecha]

John: and bind can talk generically about how those other modules will add attributes to bind itself

17:02:07 [wiecha]

John: bind module sets up bind site referenced from controls

17:02:49 [wiecha]

Nick: I'll adjust the wiki too

17:03:03 [nick]

zakim, mute me

17:03:04 [Zakim]

Nick_van_den_Bleeken should now be muted

17:03:30 [wiecha]

Topic: label and message

17:03:49 [wiecha]

s/and/in

17:03:55 [wiecha]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Dec/0029.html

17:04:29 [wiecha]

John: don't have a way to control the caption of the action bar

17:04:48 [wiecha]

John: suggestion is to allow label element as child of message

17:05:02 [wiecha]

John: behaving a bit more like a group element

17:05:20 [wiecha]

John: have internal content, but if first child element is <label> then user agent could make use of this

17:05:59 [wiecha]

does in fact sound nice

17:06:05 [Steven]

looks ok

17:06:10 [wiecha]

are there any potential gotchas???

17:06:48 [wiecha]

John: if message is ephemeral there would be no caption bar...so perhaps label would also be displayed in the msg itself

17:07:52 [wiecha]

Paul: also not required that ephemeral be a small msg, so it could also have a caption

17:08:18 [wiecha]

John: however the user agent chooses to show the msg, the label would be available

17:08:36 [wiecha]

John: e.g. for inline display as well as popup

17:09:11 [wiecha]

John: any objection to adding label as child of msg for xforms 1.2?

17:09:19 [Zakim]

-Steven

17:09:48 [wiecha]

John: who has msg module :}

17:10:02 [wiecha]

Paul: think that's me

17:10:23 [wiecha]

Paul: though likely not immediately

17:10:51 [wiecha]

Paul: think Mark has done some of this already

17:11:02 [wiecha]

Resolution: add <label> as child of <message> in XForms 1.2

17:11:23 [wiecha]

ACTION: paul to add <label> as child of <message> in XForms 1.2

17:11:23 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - paul

17:12:04 [Zakim]

-Nick_van_den_Bleeken

17:12:06 [Zakim]

-wellsk

17:12:09 [Zakim]

-John_Boyer

17:12:10 [Zakim]

-unl

17:12:10 [Zakim]

-wiecha

17:12:14 [Zakim]

-prb

17:12:15 [Zakim]

HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended

17:12:16 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.919.254.aaaa, wellsk, John_Boyer, wiecha, prb, Leigh_Klotz, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, Steven, unl

17:12:22 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:12:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer

17:12:30 [John_Boyer]

rrsagent, bye

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-forms-actions.rdf :

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: John Boyer to review/publish EMC implementation report http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2008Dec/0020.html [1]

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-forms-irc#T16-00-40

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven Pemberton to invite EMC to join Forms WG. [2]

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-forms-irc#T16-01-33

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Keith Wells to examine Firefox XPI, and EMC implementation reports and find out which test cases are not covered by both tests. [3]

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-forms-irc#T16-05-13

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Keith Wells to confirm power() function in Firefox and request its implementation if necessary. [4]

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-forms-irc#T16-08-08

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: paul to add <label> as child of <message> in XForms 1.2 [5]

17:12:30 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/07-forms-irc#T17-11-23