IRC log of svg on 2008-12-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:30:59 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:30:59 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-svg-irc
19:31:01 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
19:31:03 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:31:03 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()2:30PM scheduled to start now
19:31:04 [trackbot]: Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:31:04 [trackbot]: Date: 04 December 2008
19:31:30 [Zakim]: GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has now started
19:31:37 [Zakim]: +??P3
19:31:40 [heycam]: Zakim, ??P3 is me
19:31:40 [Zakim]: +heycam; got it
19:31:45 [Zakim]: +??P6
19:31:58 [Zakim]: +Shepazu
19:31:59 [ed]: Zakim, ??P6 is me
19:31:59 [Zakim]: +ed; got it
19:32:40 [Zakim]: +??P0
19:32:49 [anthony]: Zakim, ??P0 is me
19:32:49 [Zakim]: +anthony; got it
19:34:43 [anthony]: scribe: anthony
19:34:49 [anthony]: Chair: Erik
19:35:13 [anthony]: Topic: Welcome Mozilla
19:35:34 [anthony]: ED: JWatt will be representing Mozilla on the group
19:35:46 [anthony]: DS: He'll be on the telcons next week
19:38:53 [anthony]: Topic: Selectors API
19:39:00 [anthony]: ED: Anthony did you have time to review it
19:39:05 [anthony]: AG: No I haven't actually
19:39:45 [anthony]: DS: They will be happy with an earlier review
19:39:55 [anthony]: AG: Yes, we should send it ASAP
19:40:21 [anthony]: DS: I talk to Lochi about the namespaces stuff
19:40:47 [anthony]: ... rational for dropping it was one implementation and some there some issues with it
19:41:04 [ed]: s/Lochi/Lachlan/
19:42:25 [anthony]: ... so all browsers will the non name spaces version implemented
19:42:40 [anthony]: ... it's more important that they are more interoperable
19:43:13 [anthony]: ... my recommendation is that we ask them if namespaces can be added in later version
19:43:22 [anthony]: ... and make changes that Erik recommends
19:43:37 [anthony]: ... we prefer but not insist that namespaces be added in
19:44:07 [anthony]: ED: You are talking about NSResolver?
19:44:09 [anthony]: DS: Yes
19:45:24 [anthony]: ED: Don't think the problems will be any smaller if its added later
19:47:32 [anthony]: ... if they mention DOM3 Xpath in the next version, I'd be ok with that
19:52:13 [anthony]: Doug to Gather together the selectors API comments
19:52:28 [anthony]: ACTION: Doug to Gather together the selectors API comments
19:52:28 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2371 - Gather together the selectors API comments [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-12-11].
19:53:22 [shepazu]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml
19:54:07 [ed]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008OctDec/0413.html
19:54:35 [anthony]: Topic: Errata Review
19:55:24 [ed]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#clippath-pointer-events
19:55:25 [anthony]: ED: There was an email saying that the clipping-and-pointer errata was completed
19:56:38 [anthony]: DS: I posted a note to the list
19:56:51 [anthony]: ... and Helder who followed up on this seems to be satisfied
19:57:05 [anthony]: CM: One minor wording suggestion
19:57:25 [anthony]: ... maybe I'd use a word different from "occluded"
19:58:06 [anthony]: DS: We could just say "clipped parts of the element"
19:58:12 [anthony]: CM: Or clipped
19:58:23 [anthony]: DS: I was using "clipped" a lot
19:58:58 [anthony]: ... looking at the word "occlude" in the dictionary says to block off or conceal
19:59:55 [anthony]: ED: One thing I'm wondering is it doesn't seem to add anything to the pointer events section
19:59:59 [anthony]: ... should it do that?
20:00:03 [anthony]: DS: I don't think os
20:00:09 [anthony]: s/os/so/
20:00:20 [anthony]: DS: We could say something in pointer events
20:00:33 [anthony]: ED: Do we mention masking there?
20:00:43 [anthony]: DS: Good point I don't think we mention what happens with masking
20:00:44 [ed]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#capturing-pointer-events-zero-opacity
20:01:01 [anthony]: ED: Oh wait we do have one errata item about masking
20:02:00 [anthony]: DS: Chris was pushing for the "does not affect" wording
20:02:08 [anthony]: CM: The resolution is much clearer
20:02:33 [anthony]: DS: I think we should change the wording to what's in the resolution
20:02:40 [anthony]: ... it's more clearer
20:02:44 [anthony]: ED: I agree
20:05:16 [shepazu]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#capturing-pointer-events-zero-opacity
20:06:09 [anthony]: ACTION: Doug to Propose revised wording for the errata item "Capturing pointer-events with a zero opacity mask" to clarify it with clip-path
20:06:09 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2372 - Propose revised wording for the errata item \"Capturing pointer-events with a zero opacity mask\" to clarify it with clip-path [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-12-11].
20:06:24 [anthony]: DS: You could have a mask and a clip path
20:07:27 [anthony]: ED: So you want to combine the two errata items?
20:07:35 [anthony]: DS: Not combine by differentiate the two
20:07:48 [anthony]: ED: I'd like to see some wording in the pointer events section
20:08:15 [anthony]: DS: That's what I'm going to do, is add wording to the pointer events section that talks about masks and clip-path
20:09:49 [anthony]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#svgzoomevent-zoomrectscreen
20:10:04 [anthony]: AG: So this one here looks like it's completed
20:10:40 [anthony]: DS: For each of the errata that we move to proposed we need to make a test for
20:10:56 [anthony]: ED: We should make the tests so that they follow the standard template
20:11:07 [anthony]: ... currently there are some tests that don't follow the standard template
20:11:21 [anthony]: ... we'll have to convert the tests so they follow the template
20:12:12 [anthony]: ... so we can put them in the test directory but just keep them in draft
20:13:13 [anthony]: DS: Did we want to have tests for each errata item. Because on one hand it may slow us down but on the other it will ensure interopability
20:13:22 [anthony]: ... so I'll make up tests for clip-path and mask
20:14:02 [anthony]: CM: Do we want to divide up the other items
20:14:38 [anthony]: AG: There are some tests from the old archive need to be shifted over
20:14:55 [anthony]: ED: We should move over the test template as well
20:15:41 [anthony]: ... we have some tests in Tiny 1.2 that cover items in the errata
20:15:45 [anthony]: ... we can use those
20:15:57 [anthony]: ... the problem is what number do we give them?
20:16:09 [anthony]: DS: "11-"
20:16:23 [anthony]: ED: We could just keep the same number as in 1.2 Tiny
20:17:11 [anthony]: ... One of the changes would to change xml:id to id
20:17:24 [anthony]: ... or we could make a new template using SVG Fonts
20:17:43 [anthony]: DS: Another issue is that some of the tests for SVG Tiny 1.2 may not be approved
20:17:55 [anthony]: CM: I don't remember how different the templates are
20:18:07 [anthony]: ED: The old template uses Doctype, doesn't use SVG Fonts
20:18:24 [anthony]: ... also I don't think it had the same status values
20:18:43 [anthony]: DS: Are there any technical reasons to not use the new template?
20:20:16 [anthony]: AG: So the question is do keep the new tests separate from the original archive or will they be combined?
20:21:37 [anthony]: ED: I think we'd make a new release of the new test suite
20:24:18 [anthony]: ... I don't think the 1.2 Tiny template would be that bad if we used it
20:24:23 [anthony]: ... it's not too hard to change I think
20:24:49 [anthony]: ... the only thing then would be stripping the xml:id and copying the SVG Fonts
20:25:06 [anthony]: ... or we could do it the easy way and using what we had for the 1.1 test suite
20:28:00 [anthony]: ... would it be a good idea to move the old test suite to the new repository?
20:28:26 [anthony]: ...we need to keep the same revision number that is in the old repository
20:28:33 [anthony]: DS: Mike Smith can do it
20:29:14 [ed]: so move all of http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.1/ to the new location http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/
20:29:44 [anthony]: AG: Do you want me to add tests from the errata in the old archive to the new archive?
20:29:46 [anthony]: DS: Sure
20:30:13 [heycam]: ACTION: Obama to implement change we can believe in
20:30:13 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - Obama
20:30:37 [ed]: trackbot: YES YOU CAN! ;D
20:30:37 [trackbot]: Sorry, ed, I don't understand 'trackbot: YES YOU CAN! ;D'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
20:31:03 [anthony]: ACTION: Doug to Ask Mike Smith to move the tests from old archive to the new archive
20:31:04 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2373 - Ask Mike Smith to move the tests from old archive to the new archive [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-12-11].
20:32:56 [anthony]: ACTION: Doug to Make pointer event tests
20:32:56 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2374 - Make pointer event tests [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-12-11].
20:35:52 [anthony]: DS: Need to be careful that some tests could be testing for fonts on the host and not SVG Fonts
20:36:29 [anthony]: ... it's think it is smart to change the tests over if you have time
20:36:34 [anthony]: ... just need to be careful
20:37:31 [anthony]: ED: I think the system with status and draft would be more useful
20:37:51 [anthony]: DS: There are some changes that I'd like to make
20:38:05 [ed]: s/system with/new 1.2T template that has/
20:38:07 [anthony]: ... so links back to assertions in spec
20:39:19 [anthony]: ... and the status, approved, one of them was confusing
20:40:06 [anthony]: DS: If Mike moves the tests over then we'll loose the revision number?
20:40:15 [anthony]: CM: We'll still keep the history of the file
20:40:28 [anthony]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/errata/test-cases/
20:41:45 [anthony]: RESOLUTION: The SVG Full 1.1 2nd Edition Tests will use the SVG Tiny 1.2 Test Suite template with some minor modifications
20:42:57 [anthony]: ACTION: Anthony to Create an SVG Full 1.1 2nd Edition Test Suite template from the SVG Tiny 1.2 Test Suite template
20:42:57 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-2375 - Create an SVG Full 1.1 2nd Edition Test Suite template from the SVG Tiny 1.2 Test Suite template [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-12-11].
20:43:41 [anthony]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#svgzoomevent-zoomrectscreen
20:44:13 [anthony]: AG: This was reported by JWatt, so not sure if we want to wait until he can make the call
20:44:19 [anthony]: DS: Might be good to wait for him
20:45:31 [anthony]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#reword-f5-tangents
20:45:34 [ed]: ACTION-2362
20:45:50 [anthony]: ED: This is the action that relates to the errata item
20:45:59 [anthony]: AG: That Action number should go into the errata
20:46:29 [anthony]: ... I guess we can close off the old action and stick in the new one underneath
20:54:25 [anthony]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#currenttranslate-currentscale-nested-svg
20:54:29 [ed]: ACTION-2368
20:54:33 [anthony]: ACTION-2368?
20:54:34 [trackbot]: ACTION-2368 -- Doug Schepers to propose wording for the change that addresses the errata item Current Translate Current Scale on nested SVG -- due 2008-12-08 -- OPEN
20:54:34 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2368
20:54:53 [anthony]: AG: I'll add that action to the errata item
20:56:25 [Zakim]: -heycam
20:56:27 [Zakim]: -anthony
20:56:29 [Zakim]: -ed
20:56:46 [Zakim]: -Shepazu
20:56:47 [Zakim]: GA_SVGWG()2:30PM has ended
20:56:48 [Zakim]: Attendees were heycam, Shepazu, ed, anthony
20:56:54 [anthony]: Zakim, bye
20:56:54 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #svg
20:57:03 [anthony]: RRSAgent, make minutes
20:57:03 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-svg-minutes.html anthony
20:57:28 [ed]: oh btw, you should all try out SVGFonts in html with Opera 10
20:57:38 [anthony]: Shepazu, ed, forgot to ask any word on F2F attendance?
20:57:50 [anthony]: ok ed :D
20:57:52 [ed]: hey, I wonder what'll happen with CSS3 Webfonts now...two impls supporting svgfonts there and all ;)
20:59:04 [ed]: shepazu: will know by friday next week, need to get approval and so on, but I'm hoping to go
20:59:12 [ed]: s/shepazu/anthony
20:59:25 [anthony]: ok, cool, thanks ed
21:24:22 [shepazu]: anthony: I'm in much the same boat as ed... I'll know early next week, I hope
21:56:39 [ed]: shepazu: you're running svg-whiz.com, right? it seems to not work very well
22:03:17 [shepazu]: how so?
22:04:27 [shepazu]: ed: ^^
22:05:36 [ed]: the mimetype it sends is: text/x-server-parsed-html which isn't understood by any browser i have :)
22:06:21 [ed]: something that isn't processed on the serverside?
22:07:39 [heycam]: heycam has joined #svg
22:16:47 [heycam]: http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/errata/errata.xml#clip-path-sensitive-pointer-events
22:17:01 [heycam]: will we be removing this erratum? it conflicts with what we've just decided for pointer-events and clipping.
22:17:17 [shepazu]: heycam, you so smart!
22:17:29 [shepazu]: ed: hmmm... ok, I'll look at taht
22:17:31 [shepazu]: that
22:17:37 [shepazu]: thta
22:17:40 [shepazu]: ttha
22:17:43 [shepazu]: ha
22:17:45 [shepazu]: a
22:18:55 [heycam]: i was just going to reply to thomas and point him to the pointer-events with masking erratum, but it probably looks a little contradictory to have that old one in there :)
22:20:00 [shepazu]: yeah, actually, I can reuse some of that same wording for my newer action
22:20:11 [shepazu]: we should remove that, yes
22:20:27 [heycam]: i'll comment it out now
22:20:57 [shepazu]: first, I'm going to research what the arguments were...
22:20:59 [shepazu]: in case our revised opinion is boneheaded
22:21:02 [heycam]: ok
22:21:10 [heycam]: i'll hold off replying to thomas
22:21:52 [heycam]: btw when you fix up the tiny spec for rec publication (updated SotD and publication dates and so on) can you ping me so i can generate the pdf version?
22:24:28 [shepazu]: yes, thanks
22:24:36 [shepazu]: ok, just reread it
22:24:45 [shepazu]: the background of that issue, I mean
22:24:48 [heycam]: ok
22:26:07 [shepazu]: and we decided that the default behavior should be that it doesn't receive pointer-events, and that we didn't want to add a special attribute or something yet, but that we should look at it for the future
22:26:18 [heycam]: aha
22:26:31 [shepazu]: I think our new behavior addresses it more clearly
22:26:49 [heycam]: is now future enough? :)
22:27:04 [heycam]: i guess if we decide to reuse those pointer-events values, then we'd need to errata 1.1
22:27:28 [shepazu]: we want both use cases met, and our new behavior better matches ideal behavior, thanks to your observation that it hinges on the 'visible' aspect
22:27:41 [shepazu]: yes, it's been a year and a half :)
22:27:44 [heycam]: heh
22:28:11 [shepazu]: we're not adding a new feature, just extrapolating and clarifying underdefined behavior
22:28:43 [shepazu]: the earlier resolution buried this one in the context of the masking stuff
22:29:03 [shepazu]: so, I feel more comfortable with the new behavior
22:29:06 [heycam]: ok
22:29:13 [shepazu]: you cool with that?
22:29:15 [heycam]: yep
22:29:24 [heycam]: actually do you want to reply to thomas, since it's addressed to you? :)
22:29:33 [shepazu]: sure, np
22:29:52 [heycam]: i was just going to make the point that masking and clipping serve different use cases
22:29:55 [shepazu]: first I'll post my revised wording for pointer-events to the SVG WG list
22:29:59 [shepazu]: right
22:30:03 [heycam]: which i think makes it ok to have different behaviour with events
22:30:07 [shepazu]: yup
22:30:08 [heycam]: and also, masking is more similar to filtering
22:30:13 [heycam]: i.e. pixel operations
22:30:18 [shepazu]: I'll say all that
22:30:19 [heycam]: which doesn't change pointer events
22:30:21 [heycam]: ok
22:30:57 [shepazu]: anything else?
22:31:13 [heycam]: no i think that's all
22:33:50 [shepazu]: hmmm... http://www.w3.org/2007/03/SVG-Manly/DayTwo.html#item04
22:34:14 [shepazu]: so, we decided something different about the bbox, too :)
22:37:13 [heycam]: what did we decide recently about bbox?
22:37:44 [shepazu]: that clippath doesn't affect underlying geometry, so the bbox will be as if there is no clippath
22:38:18 [heycam]: hmm, i *think* that seems sensible
22:38:20 [ed__]: ed__ has joined #svg
22:38:23 [heycam]: did you do testing in UAs for that?
22:38:36 [shepazu]: we should also look for any tests we have for these behaviors
22:39:03 [shepazu]: apparently, but I don't see the test now... it was on an old server
22:39:08 [shepazu]: I can try to find it
22:42:03 [ed]: ed has joined #svg
22:42:59 [ed__]: ed__ has joined #svg
22:45:57 [shepazu]: oh, wait... looking at the errata, we do say that clippath doesn't affect the bbox
22:46:03 [shepazu]: so, no contradiction there
22:46:18 [shepazu]: although my wording supersedes that one, really
22:47:29 [heycam]: ok good