IRC log of xhtml on 2008-11-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim has joined #xhtml

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Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2

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ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

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Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

14:44:04 [trackbot]

Date: 26 November 2008

14:44:18 [oedipus]

regrets: Tina_Holcombe,Alessio_Cartocci

14:44:18 [oedipus]

previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/11/19-xhtml-minuts.html

14:44:18 [oedipus]

Agenda Tracker: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda

14:44:24 [oedipus]

Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

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ScribeNick: oedipus

14:44:33 [oedipus]

Chair: Roland_Merrick

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IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

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+ShaneM

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rrsagent, make minutes

14:44:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:44:43 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:45:29 [ShaneM]

ShaneM has joined #xhtml

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+Gregory_Rosmaita

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Roland has joined #xhtml

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trackbot, start telcon

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2

14:45:53 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot, I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM already started

14:45:54 [trackbot]

Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

14:45:54 [trackbot]

Date: 26 November 2008

14:46:16 [Roland]

ta

14:46:34 [Roland]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:46:34 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

14:47:03 [oedipus]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0024.html

14:47:27 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:47:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:48:20 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:48:20 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:48:22 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:48:43 [mgylling]

thanks

14:49:58 [Zakim]

+Roland

14:50:04 [oedipus]

zakim, who is here?

14:50:04 [Zakim]

On the phone I see [IPcaller], ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven, Roland

14:50:06 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Roland, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, mgylling, Steven, oedipus, trackbot

14:50:35 [mgylling]

yeah I am IPing

14:50:52 [Steven]

zakim, [IP is mgylling

14:50:52 [Zakim]

+mgylling; got it

14:51:09 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Introductions & Brief Items

14:52:13 [oedipus]

MG: Chief Technical Officer at DAISY consortium (http://www.daisy.org) - sets international standard for digital talking books - primarily blind and visually disabled; been a NISO standard since 2002; now want to change code base by 2010

14:52:45 [oedipus]

MG: would like to use XHTML2 as host grammar for series of profiles and hybrid documents

14:53:06 [Steven]

Sounds fantastic

14:53:12 [oedipus]

MG: following XHTML2 since inception; one of the most poetic of the specs i've read; here to help in any way i can

14:53:31 [oedipus]

MG: DAISY has always used W3C SMIL for presentation

14:53:41 [oedipus]

MG: SMIL3 has dedicated DAISY profile

14:54:23 [oedipus]

SP: in what respect does XHTML2 meet DAISY's requirements; accessibility always major aim of XHTML2, but anything that sticks out as being particularly useful

14:54:44 [oedipus]

MG: accessibility definitely one point; Role Module will be made extensive use of

14:56:27 [oedipus]

MG: splitting grammar into to parts: master authoring interface with host grammar that is robust enough to act as host for profiles (example: republishing print books) - 1 profile for leisure books, one for work and text books, another for periodicals; need an underlying host grammar, and XHTML2 is ideal for us; XHTML 1.1 too narrow for our basic needs in terms of structure; XHTML2 is the "great cleanup" of XHTML 1.1

14:56:45 [oedipus]

MG: XHTML2 modularity; concept model is stringent and structured enough for us to reuse it

14:57:05 [oedipus]

SP: have in past gotten a lot of criticism for changes made, so good to hear when people think got it right

14:57:27 [oedipus]

MG: HTML5 makes possible for XHTML2 to remove compromises

14:57:51 [oedipus]

SP: correct; haven't finished all discussions, but points of getting rid of compromises, now that HTML5 is being developed in W3C

14:58:05 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Oustanding Actions

14:58:14 [oedipus]

Agenda Tracker: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda

14:58:27 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions

14:58:53 [oedipus]

RM: first 4 "pending review" are shane's

14:59:44 [oedipus]

SM: Action 11 - draft policy statement about how we want to migrate modules; circulated and got feedback; i think my action is done (accept christina's comments) then what? needs to be in prominent location

15:00:01 [oedipus]

RM: 2 options: 1. link-to from group page or 2. use wiki

15:00:19 [oedipus]

RM: put on MarkUp front page -- needs more perceived stability than a wiki

15:00:27 [oedipus]

s/RM: put/SM: put

15:00:30 [oedipus]

RM: agree

15:00:50 [oedipus]

MG: latest version can be found where?

15:01:24 [oedipus]

SM: errata gathering for new edition - proposed by RM in august

15:01:51 [oedipus]

SM: is right way to do this is "if we identify errata, we will follow W3C process defined here"

15:02:15 [oedipus]

RM: seems fine to me - these things happen, here is pointer to how W3C process works

15:02:31 [oedipus]

SM: finish action by adding christina's edits

15:03:17 [oedipus]

ACTION: Shane - get draft policy statement about migrating modules on MarkUp front page

15:03:17 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-36 - - get draft policy statement about migrating modules on MarkUp front page [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-12-03].

15:03:30 [oedipus]

TOPIC: XHTML-Mime

15:03:41 [oedipus]

SM: updated typos pointed out by RM

15:03:58 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0027.html

15:04:05 [oedipus]

SM: additional 1.0 in appendix B

15:04:22 [oedipus]

RM: following applies to both; doctype declaration and lang differences between 1.0 and 1.1

15:04:32 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0023.html

15:04:44 [oedipus]

SM: before or after?

15:05:10 [oedipus]

RM: have it up front most useful - more people use 1.0 - that's why requested example for 1.0

15:05:17 [oedipus]

SM: primary examples should be 1.0

15:05:25 [oedipus]

RM: yes, shows all features, including @lang

15:05:37 [oedipus]

SM: leave current action open - will add note as to what i am doing to it

15:06:12 [oedipus]

RM: response to olivier's proposal?

15:06:21 [oedipus]

SM: overcome by events; besides, olivier resigned

15:06:30 [oedipus]

SP: friday is olivier's last day

15:06:47 [oedipus]

RM: are we ready to issue XHTML Mime as new note with changes just discussed

15:06:51 [oedipus]

SM: +1

15:06:53 [oedipus]

RM: +1

15:06:59 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1 as amended

15:07:01 [Steven]

+1

15:07:14 [oedipus]

RM: anyone think should NOT push new note?

15:07:51 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: publish new XHTML Media Types (xhtml-mime) with edits agreed to at 2008-11-26 meeting

15:07:58 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:07:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:09:03 [oedipus]

GJR: confusion between title: "XHTML Media Types" and shortname xhtml-mime

15:09:53 [oedipus]

SM: 3 issues: long title, ref (in brackets in documents - use XHTML Mime in all specs) - url should be same as old URI - should be xhtml-mime

15:10:04 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-xhtml-media-types-20020801/

15:10:15 [oedipus]

SP: old URL said note-xhtml-media-types

15:10:53 [oedipus]

SM: shouldn't be called XHTML Mime, but XHTML Media Types

15:11:31 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: Shane will publish XHTML Mime Types

15:11:54 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Action 21

15:12:15 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0016.html

15:12:30 [oedipus]

SM: need to ensure all references point to xhtml-mime

15:12:34 [oedipus]

SM: no errata on 1.0

15:12:41 [oedipus]

SP: that's amazing

15:12:53 [oedipus]

SM: errata in second edition

15:13:41 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: close action item 21 and begin request PER for 1.0

15:14:22 [oedipus]

SM: if done same for 1.1 and Basic, can we push them too?

15:14:26 [oedipus]

RM: need to check as WG

15:15:00 [oedipus]

SM: reasonable to record that 1.1 and Basic ready to go to PER Second Editions as soon as review finalized by RM

15:15:23 [oedipus]

s/that 1.1 and Basic/ that 1.1, Print, and Basic

15:15:33 [oedipus]

RM: waiting on feedback from yam

15:15:37 [oedipus]

SP: in process

15:15:44 [Steven]

I have the text

15:16:01 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: request XHTML 1.1 PER transition

15:16:32 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: request XHTML Basic 1.1 PER transition after SP adds text

15:17:27 [oedipus]

SP: melinda gave ok?

15:17:29 [oedipus]

SM: yes

15:17:32 [oedipus]

SP: pointer?

15:18:21 [oedipus]

SM: please ask melinda to send something to point to?

15:18:29 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1 to 1.1 Print PER

15:18:40 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: request XHTML Print 1.1 PER transition after receiving confirmation from melinda

15:19:12 [oedipus]

ACTION: Steven - request transition to PER for XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic 1.1, and XHTML Print

15:19:12 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-37 - - request transition to PER for XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic 1.1, and XHTML Print [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-12-03].

15:19:44 [oedipus]

GJR: is that ok, SP?

15:19:56 [oedipus]

SP: will be able to handle small tasks like this during december 2008

15:20:13 [oedipus]

RM: just want to get request in - can schedule transition call for january 2009

15:20:56 [oedipus]

RM: XHTML 1.0 PER (Third Edition) ready for transition

15:21:17 [oedipus]

SP: do we need a comments period? strictly speaking, no conformance changes, so should sail right through

15:22:02 [oedipus]

SM: 1.0 always pointed to Mime Types document; needs to be reissued because of XHTML Mime Types; taken out duplicate material from 1.0

15:22:44 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: XHTML 1.0 PER (Third Edition) ready for request for transition

15:22:49 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:22:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:23:13 [oedipus]

ACTION: Steven - request transition for XHTML 1.0 PER (Third Edition)

15:23:13 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-38 - - request transition for XHTML 1.0 PER (Third Edition) [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-12-03].

15:23:19 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:23:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:23:44 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Additional Completed Actions

15:24:02 [oedipus]

RM: Action 10 - GJR

15:24:14 [oedipus]

GJR: no, i have to do data mining - will do after call

15:24:24 [oedipus]

RM: action 14 - Shane?

15:24:38 [oedipus]

SM: no progress

15:24:46 [oedipus]

RM: 22 is done

15:25:58 [oedipus]

GJR: action 22 now closed

15:26:24 [oedipus]

SM: contacted mark baker about http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/26

15:26:33 [oedipus]

SM: RFC left an opening which needs to be plugged

15:27:07 [Steven]

3236

15:27:13 [oedipus]

SP: RFC 3236

15:27:19 [Steven]

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3236.txt

15:28:10 [oedipus]

GJR: action 26 updated with reference to RFC number and URI

15:28:58 [oedipus]

SP: disposed of issues surrounding disposition of comments which claimed we rejected it - when we hadn't

15:29:04 [oedipus]

SM: made change before call

15:29:18 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0028.html

15:29:33 [oedipus]

SM: Access, Role, and CURIEs at same transition call

15:30:00 [oedipus]

SM: makes sense to do in one call -- Access and Role both point to CURIEs, so have to change pointers if others go to CR

15:30:15 [oedipus]

RM: based on transition call, may have to make editorial changes

15:30:28 [oedipus]

SM: need to change Access and Role to point to CR version of CURIEs

15:31:03 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Timescale for XHTML2

15:31:16 [oedipus]

draft roadmap for XHTML2 for discussion

15:31:16 [oedipus]

Latest Draft(s) : 2002-08 [http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/]

15:31:16 [oedipus]

Last Editor's Draft: 2007-10-24 [http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/]

15:31:16 [oedipus]

Last Call : 2009-03

15:31:16 [oedipus]

CR : 2009-09

15:31:17 [oedipus]

PR : 2009-12

15:31:19 [oedipus]

REC : 2010-03

15:32:08 [oedipus]

RM: have talked about LC for XHTML2 for 2009-03 -- will we try and do another draft before next call

15:32:10 [oedipus]

SM: yes

15:32:24 [oedipus]

RM: estimated date? can we get done before december?

15:32:36 [oedipus]

SM: plate cleared for XHTML2

15:32:47 [oedipus]

SM: big document, please re-read

15:33:01 [oedipus]

RM: shoot for new draft this year; draft to review 2 weeks from today

15:33:58 [oedipus]

ACTION: Shane - prepare new draft of XHTML2 for review; have ready to at least walk WG through changes

15:33:58 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-39 - - prepare new draft of XHTML2 for review; have ready to at least walk WG through changes [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-12-03].

15:34:10 [oedipus]

SP: next face 2 face?

15:34:16 [oedipus]

RM: february 2009

15:34:36 [oedipus]

RM: should allow us to go through document and make decisions during february meeting; next face2face devoted to XHTML2

15:34:56 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: next face2face (february 2009) will be dedicated to review and discussion of XHTML2

15:35:11 [oedipus]

SP: 3 months of CR is optomistic

15:35:32 [oedipus]

s/optomistic/optimistic

15:35:54 [oedipus]

SP: CR at 2009-06 have more time for implementation work

15:36:19 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: change timeline for XHTML2 to start CR 2009-06

15:36:38 [oedipus]

SP: @href everywhere and @src everywhere biggest changes

15:36:55 [oedipus]

SP: saw somewhere a javascript implementation of @href everywhere

15:37:12 [oedipus]

RM: will amend WG roadmap on WG page

15:38:33 [Roland]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0018.html

15:38:46 [oedipus]

TOPIC: XML Events 2

15:38:49 [Roland]

Topic: XML Events 2

15:39:12 [oedipus]

RM: replied to comment

15:39:36 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0018.html

15:39:47 [oedipus]

RM reply: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0020.html

15:40:22 [ShaneM]

I obviously think the summary is perfect.

15:40:39 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1 to RM's suggestion: "I think you have accurately summarised the discussion. I agree that the sentiment seemed to be that we make DOM 2 the baseline for our requirement and that we would expect that DOM 3 will be compatible with DOM 2 so that we define XE 2 such that it works on either and does not require new features of DOM 3"

15:41:17 [oedipus]

RM: dependency on DOM3 shaky - what do we want from DOM3 events that we can't get from DOM2? would it make implementations more difficult?

15:41:36 [oedipus]

RM: DOM3 - essential addition: Qnames

15:42:29 [oedipus]

RM: don't have direct dependence on Qnames - if they are available, great, but if don't have req for Qnames, can we live without it and set DOM2 as baseline, with assumption that DOM3 superset of DOM2 and would include all that is in DOM2

15:42:32 [oedipus]

SP: sounds good

15:43:05 [oedipus]

RM: agreement that DOM2 basis to work with?

15:43:22 [oedipus]

SP: using DOM3 because in pipleline - nothing in processing model of DOM3 we need not in DOM2

15:43:28 [oedipus]

RM: conclusion we came to last week

15:43:53 [oedipus]

RM: change XML Events 2 to say "DOM2 and later"

15:44:23 [oedipus]

SP: need to report this to HTCG (hypertext coordination group) - this is the sort of change that may or may not affect other groups, should notify them

15:44:35 [oedipus]

RM: note to HTC?

15:45:05 [oedipus]

ACTION: Roland - notify HTC of change of verbiage to "DOM2 or later" in XML Events 2

15:45:05 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-40 - - notify HTC of change of verbiage to \"DOM2 or later\" in XML Events 2 [on Roland Merrick - due 2008-12-03].

15:45:17 [oedipus]

RM: other topics?

15:45:35 [oedipus]

RM: for those celebrating holiday, happy holiday

15:45:36 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:45:37 [Zakim]

-Roland

15:45:38 [oedipus]

ADJOURN

15:45:39 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:45:47 [Zakim]

-mgylling

15:45:50 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

15:45:51 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

15:45:53 [Zakim]

Attendees were ShaneM, [IPcaller], Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven, Roland, mgylling

15:45:55 [Roland]

Roland has left #xhtml

15:46:25 [oedipus]

zakim, please part

15:46:25 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #xhtml

15:46:32 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:46:32 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:47:28 [oedipus]

present- [IPCaller]

15:47:38 [oedipus]

present+ Markus_Gylling

15:47:40 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:47:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:48:07 [oedipus]

present- [IPcaller]

15:48:09 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:48:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:59:28 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-actions.rdf :

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane - get draft policy statement about migrating modules on MarkUp front page [1]

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-irc#T15-03-17

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven - request transition to PER for XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic 1.1, and XHTML Print [2]

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-irc#T15-19-12

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven - request transition for XHTML 1.0 PER (Third Edition) [3]

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-irc#T15-23-13

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane - prepare new draft of XHTML2 for review; have ready to at least walk WG through changes [4]

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-irc#T15-33-58

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Roland - notify HTC of change of verbiage to "DOM2 or later" in XML Events 2 [5]

15:59:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/26-xhtml-irc#T15-45-05