IRC log of rif on 2008-11-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:53 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:58:53 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-irc
15:59:04 [csma]: rrsagent, make logs public
15:59:20 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has joined #rif
15:59:40 [csma]: Meeting: RIF telecon 25 November 2008
15:59:51 [csma]: Chair: Chris Welty
16:00:00 [csma]: Scribe: Adrian Paschke
16:00:17 [csma]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0165.html
16:00:40 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:47 [Zakim]: +Sandro
16:00:50 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:00:58 [csma]: csma has changed the topic to: RIF WG telecon 25 November 2008; Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0165.html
16:01:13 [Zakim]: +??P26
16:01:13 [csma]: zakim, clear agenda
16:01:14 [Zakim]: agenda cleared
16:01:17 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:01:17 [Zakim]: +Sandro
16:01:30 [csma]: agendum+ admin
16:01:40 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P26)
16:01:40 [csma]: agendum+ liaisons
16:01:53 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:01:55 [csma]: agendum+ public comments
16:02:03 [csma]: agendum+ review actions
16:02:09 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
16:02:10 [csma]: agendum+ TF updates
16:02:16 [ChrisW]: zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:02:16 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
16:02:23 [csma]: agendum+ UCR
16:02:33 [csma]: agendum+ publication plan
16:02:38 [csma]: agendum+ DTB
16:02:48 [csma]: agendum+ AOB (pick scribe!)
16:02:50 [josb]: josb has joined #rif
16:03:10 [Zakim]: +josb
16:03:11 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
16:03:20 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:03:32 [Zakim]: +??P39
16:03:44 [StellaMitchell]: StellaMitchell has joined #rif
16:03:48 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is here?
16:03:48 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Sandro, Dave_Reynolds, [IPcaller], ChrisW, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ??P39
16:03:52 [Zakim]: On IRC I see StellaMitchell, Hassan, josb, DaveReynolds, ChrisW, RRSAgent, csma, sandro, trackbot, Zakim
16:04:09 [csma]: zakim, ??P39 is me
16:04:09 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
16:04:15 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
16:04:19 [StellaMitchell]: zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:04:20 [ChrisW]: zakim, ipcaller is Adrian
16:04:21 [Zakim]: +StellaMitchell; got it
16:04:25 [Zakim]: +Adrian; got it
16:04:58 [ChrisW]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/att-0125/2008-11-18-rif-minutes.htm
16:05:08 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED: accept minutes of last weeks telecon
16:05:17 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept minutes of last weeks telecon
16:05:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]: LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:06:17 [csma]: Regrets: ChanghaiKe, PaulVincent
16:06:20 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda
16:06:20 [Zakim]: I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
16:06:21 [Zakim]: 1. admin [from csma]
16:06:21 [Zakim]: 2. liaisons [from csma]
16:06:22 [Zakim]: 3. public comments [from csma]
16:06:22 [Zakim]: 4. review actions [from csma]
16:06:23 [Zakim]: 5. TF updates [from csma]
16:06:23 [Zakim]: 6. UCR [from csma]
16:06:25 [Zakim]: 7. publication plan [from csma]
16:06:27 [Zakim]: 8. DTB [from csma]
16:06:29 [Zakim]: 9. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma]
16:06:30 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 1
16:06:31 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern
16:06:35 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "admin" taken up [from csma]
16:06:35 [ChrisW]: zakim, close item 1
16:06:37 [Zakim]: agendum 1, admin, closed
16:06:39 [Zakim]: I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:06:41 [Zakim]: 2. liaisons [from csma]
16:06:42 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 2
16:06:44 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "liaisons" taken up [from csma]
16:06:56 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern.a
16:06:58 [csma]: zakim, mute me
16:06:58 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
16:08:08 [josb]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Nov/0122.html
16:08:32 [josb]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Nov/0110.html
16:10:08 [DaveReynolds]: Jena does cannonicalization I believe and is supposed to implement XMLLiteral correctly.
16:12:24 [josb]: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-XMLLiteral
16:12:30 [josb]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xmlschema-2-20010502/
16:12:55 [Gary_Hallmark]: Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:13:34 [Zakim]: +Gary
16:13:34 [Michael_Kifer]: Michael_Kifer has joined #rif
16:14:36 [DaveReynolds]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata#rdf-concepts says Ivan is the editor of the errata document.
16:14:37 [ChrisW]: action: sandro to figure process for RDF errata (re: fixing rdf:xmlliteral)
16:14:37 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-664 - Figure process for RDF errata (re: fixing rdf:xmlliteral) [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-12-02].
16:14:51 [Zakim]: + +49.308.387.aaaa
16:15:01 [Zakim]: -Adrian
16:15:04 [Zakim]: +Michael_Kifer
16:15:12 [AxelPolleres]: AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:15:24 [ChrisW]: zakim, aaaa is Adrian
16:15:24 [Zakim]: +Adrian; got it
16:15:29 [Zakim]: +??P7
16:15:31 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 3
16:15:31 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "public comments" taken up [from csma]
16:16:36 [csma]: I did not progress on the RAK comment. Give me 'till Friday EOB.
16:16:47 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
16:16:47 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
16:17:07 [csma]: zakim, mute me
16:17:07 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
16:17:14 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
16:17:14 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "liaisons" taken up [from csma]
16:17:22 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 4
16:17:22 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "review actions" taken up [from csma]
16:17:38 [csma]: I can do the closing etc
16:18:02 [csma]: yes
16:18:09 [csma]: done
16:18:27 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda
16:18:27 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:18:28 [Zakim]: 2. liaisons [from csma]
16:18:28 [Zakim]: 4. review actions [from csma]
16:18:29 [Zakim]: 5. TF updates [from csma]
16:18:29 [Zakim]: 6. UCR [from csma]
16:18:30 [Zakim]: 7. publication plan [from csma]
16:18:30 [Zakim]: 8. DTB [from csma]
16:18:32 [Zakim]: 9. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma]
16:19:58 [josb]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/IRI_from_IRI
16:20:31 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
16:20:31 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
16:20:57 [csma]: zakim, mute me
16:20:57 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
16:22:03 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
16:22:17 [AxelPolleres]: continued
16:22:37 [csma]: 592 is continued
16:23:37 [Hassan]: ctd ...
16:24:55 [Zakim]: +Harold
16:25:36 [csma]: that's a PRD TF action
16:25:46 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
16:25:46 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
16:27:27 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
16:27:39 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 5
16:27:39 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "TF updates" taken up [from csma]
16:30:22 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
16:30:22 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
16:32:26 [Gary]: what do we do with a rule: P(?x - ?y) :- P(?x + ?y)
16:34:47 [DaveReynolds]: Gary - that rule would be unsafe by the current criteria.
16:35:57 [csma]: zakim, mute me
16:35:57 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
16:35:59 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 6
16:35:59 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "UCR" taken up [from csma]
16:36:39 [ChrisW]: *PROPOSED:* Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:36:47 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:37:06 [ChrisW]: other requirements: RIF must support inter-dialect interchange
16:37:11 [ChrisW]: other requirements: RIF must support intra-dialect interchange
16:37:51 [ChrisW]: other requirements: RIF must support intra-dialect interchange
16:37:54 [ChrisW]: *PROPOSED:* Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag."
16:38:49 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text" - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag.
16:39:01 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: Include in UCR new requirement "Internationalized text: RIF must support internationalized text" - that is, text that additionally conveys information in terms of a language tag.
16:40:31 [StellaMitchell]: the conclusion of UCR says:
16:40:34 [StellaMitchell]: Developing criteria for understanding and managing RIF inter-dialect translations is not within the current phase of RIF working group activity.
16:41:00 [StellaMitchell]: the CSF that was removed said: Encouragement of Interoperability: RIF will encourage interoperability, e.g., overlap between dialects and distinguished dialects with maximum overlap.
16:45:56 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 7
16:45:56 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "publication plan" taken up [from csma]
16:46:04 [sandro]: sandro has joined #rif
16:47:34 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:47:41 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
16:47:41 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
16:48:09 [csma]: zakim, mute me
16:48:09 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
16:49:27 [csma]: q?
16:50:27 [DaveReynolds]: q-
16:50:51 [josb]: q+
16:51:39 [sandro]: MediaWiki:Sidebar
16:52:16 [ChrisW]: ack j
16:54:28 [ChrisW]: action: sandro to look at CORE formatting problem
16:54:28 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-665 - Look at CORE formatting problem [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-12-02].
16:54:54 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 8
16:54:54 [Zakim]: agendum 8. "DTB" taken up [from csma]
16:55:13 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED:* Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:21 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED: Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:52 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: Add equal and not-equal builtins for string in DTB.
16:55:53 [josb]: 0
16:56:01 [ChrisW]: Jos abstains
16:56:03 [AxelPolleres]: "Editor's Note: The need of separate equality, inequality, less-than, greater-than, less-than-or-equal, greater-than-or-equal predicates for strings is still under discussion, cf. ISSUE-67."
16:56:24 [AxelPolleres]: Editor's Note: The need of separate less-than, greater-than, less-than-or-equal, greater-than-or-equal predicates for strings is still under discussion, cf. ISSUE-67.
16:56:56 [ChrisW]: ISSUE-79: Negative guards
16:56:56 [trackbot]: ISSUE-79 Negative guards in DTB - is this another dialect? notes added
16:58:36 [AxelPolleres]: As I understand, dropping neg guards is a problem for OWL-RL
16:58:40 [AxelPolleres]: Dave?
17:00:00 [josb]: we need them for embedding RIF-OWL DLP combinations (sec 8.2.3.2 of SWC) as well
17:00:19 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
17:00:19 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
17:00:24 [AxelPolleres]: I likely wouldn't implement full equality... without, it is probably not an issue.
17:00:47 [DaveReynolds]: I have a preference for keeping them to allow the OWL/RLtranslation to be expressed within Core.
17:00:54 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Disjunctive_Information_from_Negative_Guards_1
17:02:57 [sandro]: q+
17:04:24 [DaveReynolds]: q+
17:04:36 [sandro]: q-
17:04:48 [csma]: zakim, mute me
17:04:48 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
17:05:18 [DaveReynolds]: q-
17:05:21 [sandro]: ack DaveReynolds
17:08:03 [AxelPolleres]: I don't see how this could affect core at the moment.
17:08:27 [josb]: I can live with either option
17:11:24 [ChrisW]: ISSUE-80 [12] (Shoudl we extend DTB to include more general builtins)
17:12:19 [Harold]: We could have parameterized dialect schemas, including a "DTB schema" with DTB(NG) being one instantiation (NG = Negative Guard).
17:13:41 [Harold]: We already have the beginnings of this with the conformance clauses.
17:14:44 [sandro]: AxelPolleres, Adrian is scribing off-line because he can't get on IRC.
17:15:24 [sandro]: Wouldn't the parameterized versions replace the fixed ones?
17:16:47 [josb]: I think the negative version is really asking for trouble
17:17:10 [josb]: I think it's better to use a dialect with negation and use that negation
17:17:55 [josb]: q+
17:17:57 [AxelPolleres]: +1 dialect with negation seems to be missing desparately, it could safe all these negative builtins
17:18:22 [AxelPolleres]: pred:hasDatatype
17:19:30 [AxelPolleres]: hasNotDatatype( ?X ?Y ) has no intended domain
17:19:54 [AxelPolleres]: but neither has isNotInteger( ?X )
17:19:59 [DaveReynolds]: q+
17:21:00 [ChrisW]: ack j
17:21:01 [ChrisW]: ack d
17:21:02 [AxelPolleres]: for safe Externals, it hasNotDatatype doesn't seem to be less or more problematic than the existing ones.
17:21:57 [Harold]: Maybe hasNotDatatype should be replaced with a RELATIVE complement, wrt a higher datatype in the type lattice.
17:23:34 [AxelPolleres]: Harold, don't understand what you're after.
17:23:49 [StellaMitchell]: pathalogical
17:23:51 [ChrisW]: action: jos to come up with problematic case for general type pred
17:23:51 [trackbot]: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
17:23:51 [trackbot]: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
17:24:45 [ChrisW]: ISSUE-67 [10] (need string predicates string-less-than, etc.)
17:25:52 [Gary]: mild pref for string-less-than, for symmetry with numeric and date
17:26:04 [josb]: q+
17:27:32 [Michael_Kifer]: 0
17:29:22 [AxelPolleres]: "<" ">" "!=" ...
17:30:02 [AxelPolleres]: "=" is still possibly troublesome for such a surface syntax?
17:30:47 [Zakim]: -Harold
17:30:49 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:30:50 [Zakim]: -Michael_Kifer
17:30:51 [Zakim]: -StellaMitchell
17:30:53 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern.a
17:30:55 [Zakim]: -Gary
17:30:57 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern
17:30:59 [Zakim]: -AxelPolleres
17:31:01 [Zakim]: -josb
17:31:03 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
17:31:12 [csma]: rrsagent, ake minutes
17:31:12 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'ake minutes', csma. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:31:23 [csma]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-minutes.html csma
17:31:37 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
17:31:37 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
17:32:47 [sandro]: paschke@inf.fu-berlin.de
17:33:41 [Zakim]: -Adrian
17:33:47 [Zakim]: -Sandro
17:34:18 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
17:34:20 [Zakim]: -csma
17:34:22 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:34:23 [Zakim]: Attendees were Sandro, Dave_Reynolds, ChrisW, josb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, csma, StellaMitchell, Adrian, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary, +49.308.387.aaaa, Michael_Kifer, AxelPolleres, Harold
17:34:59 [csma]: zakim, list attendees
17:34:59 [Zakim]: sorry, csma, I don't know what conference this is
17:35:13 [csma]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:35:13 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/25-rif-minutes.html csma
18:00:32 [csma]: csma has left #rif