IRC log of rdfa on 2008-11-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:55:03 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
15:55:03 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc
15:55:08 [Ralph]: Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
15:55:17 [Ralph]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0032.html
15:55:41 [Ralph]: -> http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-11-06
15:55:47 [Ralph]: rrsagent, please make record public
15:57:05 [Ralph]: Regrets: Michael
15:58:47 [markbirbeck]: Will be two minutes late. :) (Just finished another call, and need to find a cup of tea. ;))
15:59:31 [Zakim]: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:59:32 [Zakim]: +Ralph
15:59:56 [ShaneM]: ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:00:45 [Zakim]: +ShaneM
16:00:46 [Zakim]: -ShaneM
16:00:46 [Zakim]: +ShaneM
16:01:03 [Steven]: zakim, dial steven-617
16:01:03 [Zakim]: ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:01:05 [Zakim]: +Steven
16:01:07 [msporny]: Ralph doesn't go back... only forward.
16:01:29 [Steven]: zakim, drop steven
16:01:29 [Zakim]: Steven is being disconnected
16:01:30 [Zakim]: -Steven
16:01:49 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:02:39 [benadida]: benadida has joined #rdfa
16:02:42 [Steven]: zakim, dial steven-617
16:02:43 [Zakim]: ok, Steven; the call is being made
16:02:44 [Zakim]: +Steven
16:02:59 [Zakim]: +Ben_Adida
16:03:27 [msporny]: zakim, I am +[IPCaller]
16:03:27 [Zakim]: sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '+[IPCaller]'
16:03:31 [Ralph]: Chair: Ben
16:03:32 [msporny]: zakim, I am IPCaller
16:03:32 [Zakim]: ok, msporny, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
16:03:47 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ben_Adida
16:03:50 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ShaneM
16:04:04 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ShaneM
16:04:06 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph
16:04:11 [Ralph]: Scribe: Ralph
16:06:12 [markbirbeck]: Hey...thanks Ralph. And a chocolate biscuit too! Most kind.
16:06:19 [markbirbeck]: zakim, code?
16:06:19 [Zakim]: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
16:06:50 [Zakim]: +markbirbeck
16:06:51 [Ralph]: Ben: I was invited to talk with Interlab (Lawrence Livermore) alongside some Microformat folk,
16:06:54 [Ralph]: ... had a lovely time
16:07:13 [Ralph]: ... agreement that there was a place for both RDFa and Microformats
16:07:23 [Ralph]: ... a range of stuff people want to express
16:07:59 [Ralph]: ... use microformat vcard if it does what you want, use RDFa if you need to extend
16:08:34 [Ralph]: ... that audience pretty quickly saw the need to add their own extensions
16:08:45 [msporny]: http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page
16:08:53 [Ralph]: s/(L/(at L
16:08:55 [msporny]: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
16:09:14 [Ralph]: Manu: Microformats is starting to markup their site in a style similar to W3C
16:09:47 [Ralph]: Ben: get them to use RDFa in their specs :)
16:10:02 [Ralph]: Ralph: yeah, embarass W3C into publishing RECs with RDFa by being second to do it ;)
16:16:21 [Ralph]: next item
16:16:31 [Ralph]: zakim, take up item 1
16:16:31 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Action Items" taken up [from Ralph]
16:16:47 [Ralph]: ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to point to new TF page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:16:59 [Ralph]: Ben: required writing a new task force page 'cause we didn't really have one
16:17:09 [benadida]: old tf page --> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/
16:17:19 [benadida]: new tf page --> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/
16:17:33 [Ralph]: -- done
16:18:10 [Ralph]: Ben: Michael had created a page, now cited from the new page, but it had too much detail for a TF home page
16:18:15 [Ralph]: Manu: add a link to the wiki
16:18:35 [Steven]: agenda+ Drupal
16:18:38 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:18:48 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:19:05 [Ralph]: [DONE] ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
16:19:16 [Ralph]: Manu: test case 120
16:19:33 [Ralph]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html Test Case #120: empty string "" is not equivalent to NULL
16:19:38 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
16:19:49 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
16:20:00 [Ralph]: [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:20:22 [Ralph]: Manu: test cases 118 & 119
16:20:32 [Ralph]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0029.html Test Case #118: Fragment identifiers stripped from BASE
16:20:44 [Ralph]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html Test Case #119: Fragment identifiers resolved correctly for subjects/objects
16:20:55 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
16:21:02 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
16:21:23 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
16:21:48 [Ralph]: Ben: should we look for more resources on this? some collaborators?
16:22:01 [Ralph]: Mark: I volunteered for this action because I do have an old wizard for XForms
16:22:10 [Ralph]: ... was originally written for a plug-in that required installation
16:22:27 [Ralph]: ... we have a new project; Ubiquity XForms that's an ajax library
16:22:44 [Ralph]: ... the wizard running in Ubiquity XForms would run on any browser
16:22:54 [Ralph]: ... that's what I've been planning to do
16:22:57 [Ralph]: ... just been swamped
16:23:16 [Ralph]: Ben: I'd come across Ubiquity XForms while searching for something else
16:23:20 [Ralph]: ... seems pretty cool
16:23:42 [Ralph]: ... perhaps I might be able to help
16:24:01 [Ralph]: Mark: happy to share what I have; may be a good way to learn XForms too
16:24:10 [Ralph]: ... it's not a complex wizard
16:24:33 [Ralph]: ... I used the FOAF RDF Schema in my old wizard, which I thought made this more useful
16:24:37 [Steven]: Advert for Ben - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2003/xforms-for-html-authors.html
16:24:43 [Ralph]: Ben: yes, nice to drive the whole thing from RDF
16:25:05 [benadida]: ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
16:25:48 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
16:25:57 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
16:26:03 [Ralph]: [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
16:26:13 [Ralph]: Ben: RSS+RDFa came up at the Interlab talk
16:26:13 [markbirbeck]: @Ralph: http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/
16:26:40 [Ralph]: s/@Ralph:/Ubiquity XForms
16:26:52 [Ralph]: Ben: extensibility is important
16:27:06 [Ralph]: Steven: I wrote something on one of Mark's wikis a while ago
16:27:10 [Ralph]: ... but it disappeared
16:27:23 [Ralph]: Mark: yeah, unfortunately I lost that wiki data due to spam
16:28:00 [Ralph]: Manu: there's a lot of similarity between hAtom and SIOC
16:28:16 [Ralph]: ... ought to be easy to write a tool to extract the SIOC triples and rewrite it as hAtom
16:28:24 [Ralph]: ... use SIOC as the base syndication format
16:28:32 [Ralph]: Ben: Atom is built to be extensible
16:28:43 [Ralph]: ... so there's an interesting case to be made specifically for this use case
16:28:52 [Steven]: [1]
16:28:52 [Steven]: <http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2005/01/xhtml-2-as-universal-document.htm
16:28:52 [Steven]: l>
16:28:52 [Steven]: [2] <http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfAExampleRSS>
16:29:18 [Ralph]: Steven: ^ are the dead links
16:29:50 [Ralph]: s/are/is
16:29:52 [Ralph]: s/links/link
16:30:36 [Ralph]: move to next item
16:30:37 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Test Cases" taken up [from Ralph]
16:30:42 [msporny]: TC 116: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0027.html
16:30:59 [Ralph]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0027.html Test Case #116: Relative URLs must be resolved in resulting triples
16:31:15 [msporny]: Title should be "XML Entities must be supported by RDFa parser"
16:33:43 [Ralph]: Ralph: it's important that the MIME type of the document describing the expected results is clear. E.g. if it's XML then some re-encoding is needed
16:34:04 [Ralph]: RESOLVED: test case 116 approved
16:34:16 [msporny]: TC 117: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0028.html
16:34:16 [Ralph]: -- test 117
16:34:41 [msporny]: Description should be: "This test case should strip the fragment from [base] when generating the subject of the triple."
16:35:07 [Ralph]: Manu: oops, wrong test
16:35:20 [Ralph]: ... 117 is Toby Inkster's test for reserved words in @property; a negative test
16:36:43 [Steven]: More on rss+RDFa - http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/syndication/message/548
16:36:51 [Ralph]: Manu: any other triples that shouldn't be generated? :)
16:37:17 [Ralph]: Mark: Toby's wording suggested a specific triple shouldn't be generated
16:37:25 [Ralph]: ... in fact, this test should generate _no_ triples
16:37:26 [Ralph]: RESOLVED: test case 117 approved
16:37:31 [msporny]: TC 118: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0029.html
16:37:31 [Ralph]: -- test 118
16:37:42 [msporny]: Description should be: "This test case should strip the fragment from [base] when generating the subject of the triple."
16:39:00 [msporny]: That description should replace the contents of the <p> tag
16:39:51 [Ralph]: RESOLVED: test case 118 approved
16:40:01 [Ralph]: -- test 119
16:40:12 [Ralph]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html Test Case #119: Fragment identifiers resolved correctly for subjects/objects
16:40:35 [Ralph]: Mark: I'd like to see one with base in the body
16:41:03 [Ralph]: ... the algorithm for @about="" needs to do the correct thing in both HEAD and BODY
16:41:10 [Ralph]: Manu: could add another triple in the body in 118
16:41:37 [Ralph]: s/see one/see a test
16:42:29 [msporny]: <body>
16:42:29 [msporny]: <div property="dc:contributor">Mark Birbeck</div> added this
16:42:29 [msporny]: triple test.
16:42:29 [msporny]: </body>
16:42:50 [Ralph]: Manu: add this to 118
16:43:33 [msporny]: ASK WHERE {
16:43:33 [msporny]: <http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>
16:43:33 [msporny]: <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title>
16:43:33 [msporny]: "Test 0118" .
16:43:33 [msporny]: <http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>
16:43:34 [msporny]: <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/creator>
16:43:36 [msporny]: "Mark Birbeck" .
16:43:38 [msporny]: }
16:43:57 [Ralph]: s/creator/contributor
16:43:58 [msporny]: The full HTML should be this:
16:44:00 [msporny]: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
16:44:00 [msporny]: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"
16:44:00 [msporny]: "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">
16:44:00 [msporny]: <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
16:44:00 [msporny]: xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
16:44:00 [msporny]: <head>
16:44:02 [msporny]: <base href="http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml#fragment"></base>
16:44:04 [msporny]: <title property="dc:title">Test 0118</title>
16:44:06 [msporny]: </head>
16:44:08 [msporny]: <body>
16:44:10 [msporny]: <div property="dc:contributor">Mark Birbeck</div> added this
16:44:12 [msporny]: triple test.
16:44:16 [msporny]: </body>
16:44:18 [msporny]: </html>
16:44:20 [msporny]: The SPARQL should be this:
16:44:22 [msporny]: ASK WHERE {
16:44:24 [msporny]: <http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>
16:44:26 [msporny]: <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title>
16:44:28 [msporny]: "Test 0118" .
16:44:30 [msporny]: <http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>
16:44:32 [msporny]: <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor>
16:44:34 [msporny]: "Mark Birbeck" .
16:44:36 [msporny]: }
16:44:46 [msporny]: Corrected HTML:
16:44:48 [msporny]: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
16:44:48 [msporny]: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"
16:44:48 [msporny]: "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">
16:44:50 [msporny]: <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
16:44:52 [msporny]: xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
16:44:54 [msporny]: <head>
16:44:56 [msporny]: <base href="http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml#fragment"></base>
16:44:58 [msporny]: <title property="dc:title">Test 0118</title>
16:45:00 [msporny]: </head>
16:45:02 [msporny]: <body>
16:45:04 [msporny]: <p>
16:45:06 [msporny]: <div property="dc:contributor">Mark Birbeck</div> added this
16:45:08 [msporny]: triple test.
16:45:10 [msporny]: </p>
16:45:12 [msporny]: </body>
16:45:16 [msporny]: </html>
16:46:03 [Ralph]: RESOLVED: test case 118 approved with addition of triple in body
16:46:20 [msporny]: TC 119: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html
16:46:26 [Ralph]: -- test 119
16:46:51 [Ralph]: Manu: note @about as well as @href with an invalid fragment
16:47:03 [Ralph]: ... I believe per the HTML spec that the last fragment identifier is the one that's used
16:47:13 [Ralph]: Ben: how do browsers behave?
16:47:21 [Ralph]: Mark: not sure you can rely on the browser behavior here
16:49:21 [Ralph]: Ralph: I recommend that the test case cite the part of the spec you're relying on for the "#invalid#manu" resolution
16:49:33 [Ralph]: s/spec/HTML spec/
16:50:40 [Ralph]: Mark: I have a URI test suite that I'd built out of frustration a while ago
16:50:49 [Ralph]: ... I believe I have an RFC-faithful implementation
16:50:51 [ShaneM]: I get this: <http://www.example.org/tc119.xhtml#tc-119> <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor> <http://www.example.org/tc119.xhtml#invalid%23manu>
16:51:06 [Ralph]: ... and my implementation retains everything after the first '#'
16:51:21 [Ralph]: ... the first '#' indicates "from here on you have a fragment identifier"
16:51:28 [Ralph]: Shane: I agree with Mark
16:51:32 [Ralph]: ... as does my implementation
16:51:57 [markbirbeck]: http://ubiquity-backplane.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/_unit-tests/main.html
16:52:10 [Ralph]: ... using a standard perl URI library, everything after the first embedded '#' is URI-encoded
16:52:20 [Ralph]: ... kind of surprising; I didn't expect this
16:52:47 [markbirbeck]: This is a test suite that uses all of the examples in the RFC.
16:52:49 [Ralph]: Mark: the re-encoding isn't wrong
16:53:33 [Ralph]: Ben: we need to be sure about the URI spec before we approve 119
16:53:33 [msporny]: TC 120: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html
16:53:35 [Ralph]: -- test 120
16:54:00 [Ralph]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html Test Case #120: empty string "" is not equivalent to NULL
16:55:37 [Ralph]: RESOLVED: test 120 approved
16:56:05 [Ralph]: close this item
16:56:32 [Ralph]: zakim, take up item 4
16:56:32 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Q re: spec from Johan" taken up [from Ralph]
16:56:33 [ShaneM]: email said: Step 7 and 9 create RDF triples using the [new subject] (http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#T_new_subject) I assume these create statements are honored if the [new subject] is not null (same condition as on step 6).
16:56:58 [Ralph]: Mark: the reported bug isn't quite correct but he did spot something
16:57:49 [Ralph]: ... the question asked if there ought to be a guard against not having a new subject in other steps
16:57:58 [Ralph]: ... but in fact the guard isn't needed in step 6 either
16:58:21 [Ralph]: Shane: by the time you get to step 6 you will have a new subject
16:58:41 [Ralph]: Mark: the step Johan is specifically referring to mentions @typeof, which will always be the case
16:58:59 [Ralph]: ... the current guard is not at all necessary
16:59:03 [Ralph]: Ralph: not harmful though?
16:59:19 [Ralph]: Mark: right, I'd remove it in an errata just so it doesn't confuse anyone else
16:59:36 [Ralph]: Shane: let's add it to the errata document now
17:00:53 [Ralph]: ... I'll update errata and reply to the commenter
17:00:53 [Ralph]: s/ter/tor
17:00:58 [ShaneM]: ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan who sent private mail, copying the task force.
17:01:25 [Ralph]: Ben: next meeting in 2 weeks; 4 December
17:01:57 [Ralph]: Mark: I have an almost-finished blog post on relating vocabularies; will finish that for discussion in 2 weeks
17:02:07 [Ralph]: Ben: also look at @prefix writeup in the wiki
17:03:04 [Ralph]: Mark: [rethinking test 119] I'm now thinking a fragment cannot contain '#'
17:03:25 [Ralph]: ... though '?' and '/' are allowed back in fragment IDs
17:04:17 [Ralph]: ... the reader should stop reading on the second '#'
17:04:26 [Ralph]: ... that's my interpretation now
17:04:48 [Ralph]: [adjourned]
17:05:25 [Zakim]: -ShaneM
17:05:29 [Zakim]: -Ralph
17:05:30 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
17:05:30 [Zakim]: -markbirbeck
17:05:48 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:05:58 [Zakim]: -Steven
17:06:21 [Zakim]: SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:06:22 [Zakim]: Attendees were Ralph, ShaneM, Steven, [IPcaller], Ben_Adida, markbirbeck
17:07:11 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
17:07:14 [Ralph]: zakim, bye
17:07:14 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rdfa
17:07:17 [Ralph]: rrsagent, bye
17:07:17 [RRSAgent]: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:07:17 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to point to new TF page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [1]
17:07:17 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc#T16-16-47
17:07:17 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [2]
17:07:17 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc#T16-25-05
17:07:17 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan who sent private mail, copying the task force. [3]
17:07:17 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc#T17-00-58