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07:59:46 <Ashok> Wolfgang, are you there?
08:00:02 <whalb> hi, i'm on irc only
08:00:21 <Ashok> meeting: RDB2RDF
08:00:41 <Ashok> Which room did you book at the hotel?
08:01:00 <whalb> the small meeting room
08:01:07 <Ashok> chair: Ashok Malhotra
08:01:33 <Ashok> I'm wondering if we can get the bigger room?
08:02:17 <whalb> should be no problem, i suppose
08:03:27 <Ashok> You will have to speak with the hotel ... they will only speak to you since you are the organizer
08:04:13 <whalb> ok, so you want the bigger room?
08:04:58 <Ashok> yes, that would be nice
08:05:53 <Ashok> can you phone them?
08:07:07 <whalb> just called - the bigger room is occupied for today
08:07:59 <Ashok> Please ask for tomorrow
08:11:30 <whalb> tomorrow is no problem - will cost eur 75 then instead of eur 45
08:12:06 <whalb> i can also try to convince the lady at the front desk to move to the bigger room today in the afternoon maybe?
08:25:41 <Ashok> That would be great!
08:25:55 <whalb> so for this afternoon and tomorrow?
08:25:55 <Ashok> BTW, where is Michael?
08:26:05 <Ashok> We need a projector
08:26:41 <whalb> he will be there with the projector soon
08:32:34 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
08:33:43 <Ashok> RDB2RDF XG f2f Agenda  1. Welcome and introductions 2. Appointment of minute taker  3. Approve minutes of October 10, 2008 meeting        5. Agenda bashing              6. Action Items:    - Jenny/Cathy to send out use case to the group.    - Orri to update the requirements document 	 7. Satya Sahoo and Wolfgang Halb – Update on Literature Survey http://esw.w3.org/topic/Rdb2RdfXG/StateOfTheArt 8. Usecase discussion  ·	Automatic mapping from RDB schema to R
08:43:13 <Ashok> Wolfgang, please phone Michael .... we need the projector
08:44:29 <ericP> ericP has joined #rdb2rdf
08:44:59 <ericP> topic: Apporval of minutes 10Oct
08:45:14 <ericP> APPROVED: no objections
08:45:22 <ericP> topic: Next telecon
08:45:47 <Soeren> Soeren has joined #rdb2rdf
08:45:50 <Soeren> http://docs.google.com/Presentation?docid=dg6b38v4_3dnqsk7dc
08:45:57 <Soeren> that's the link to the triplify presentation
08:45:58 <ericP> PROPOSED: 6Nov (13Nov cancelled)
08:46:02 <ericP> APPROVED: no objections
08:46:13 <ericP> topic: Action Items
08:46:39 <ericP> Jenn: we have @@@ documents back now
08:47:15 <ericP> ... contract for getting ordinance survey data will be sent to the XG
08:47:36 <ericP> ... will need inspection by XG participants
08:47:39 <whalb> i just called the hotel and have arranged the bigger room for tomorrow
08:47:46 <whalb> unfortunately it is not possible to have bigger room today, sorry
08:48:02 <ericP> Topic: Soeren's presentation
08:48:10 <whalb> michael should be there soon
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08:48:56 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: http://docs.google.com/Presentation?docid=dg6b38v4_3dnqsk7dc
08:49:04 <bijan> bijan has joined #RDB2RDF
08:50:05 <ericP> [google presentation clinic ensues]
08:51:11 <whalb> 6Nov is a Thursday? do you mean 7Nov and cancel 14Nov telecon?
08:51:16 <Soeren> http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=dg6b38v4_3dnqsk7dc
08:51:43 <bijan> bijan has changed the topic to: http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=dg6b38v4_3dnqsk7dc
08:51:51 <Ashok> Right!
08:52:39 <Ashok> So, the correct telcons details are:  Cancel Nov 14 Telcon.  Next telcon Nov 7
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08:55:54 <ericP> [slide showing slow groth of SW]
08:56:28 <ericP> Soeren: if we put data in the SW, search engines will index it in structured ways
08:57:01 <ericP> ... most indexed docs are no longer simple html 
08:57:51 <ericP> ... idea of triplify is the make it easy for relation custodians to puublish their data on thein the SW
09:00:36 <Soeren_> Soeren_ has joined #rdb2rdf
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09:06:15 <ericP> idea was to e 
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09:10:07 <ericP> Soeren:
09:10:12 <ericP> ... simpel conf -- didn't invent a new scheme
09:10:12 <ericP> ... tested with mysql
09:10:12 <ericP> ... should work with other DBs
09:10:12 <ericP> ... configured with SQL queries
09:10:49 <ericP> [ex with wordpress]
09:10:49 <ericP> Soeren: re-using existing vocabs is done by renaming the result coluimns
09:10:49 <ericP> ... URI and literal constraints are appended to gen'd SQL
09:10:49 <ericP> ... can use aggregates and transformations (e.g. SHA1)
09:10:51 <ericP> ... ...
09:10:54 <ericP> ... we need logs of RDB updates so a crawler can hit those changes
09:10:56 <ericP> Ashok: could introduce this need to DAWG2
09:10:59 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
09:11:00 <ericP> ...
09:11:32 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
09:11:52 <ericP> Soeren: [wordpress details on crawling updates]
09:12:36 <ericP> ... you can annotate updates (e.g. provenance)
09:12:51 <ericP> ... crawlers can discriminate
09:13:05 <ericP> ... working on Open Street Maps
09:13:21 <ericP> ... 160G of Geo data
09:13:29 <ericP> ... already deployed triplify for this data
09:13:39 <ericP> ... the schema is structured in terms of points
09:13:53 <ericP> ... triply configuration would need to know the ID
09:14:08 <ericP> ... we are envisioning a spacial extension
09:14:20 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #rdb2rdf
09:14:40 <ericP> ... URL-encode long,lat and radius
09:15:51 <ericP> ... in some places, Open Street Maps is much more detailed than google
09:17:37 <ericP> ... i find viruoso and triplify complementary
09:18:19 <ericP> ... haven't experienced performance issues 'cause the queries are pushed down
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09:21:39 <jsequeda> http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=df7pbdbw_463cspkrfdh
09:26:09 <bijan> bijan has joined #RDB2RDF
09:26:16 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=df7pbdbw_463cspkrfdh
09:26:56 <ericP> topic: Juan's preso
09:27:08 <ericP> [slide 2]
09:27:28 <ericP> Juan: need a motivation to create linked data
09:27:36 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rdb2rdf
09:27:47 <ericP> ... this direct mapping is an easy way to get thsi started
09:27:53 <ericP> [slide 3]
09:28:50 <ericP> Juan: have a survvey of folks who have used a direct mapping
09:29:06 <ericP> ... have worked out completeness
09:29:14 <ericP> ... demo at eswc
09:29:24 <ericP> [slide 4]
09:29:46 <ericP> [slide 5]
09:30:19 <ericP> Juan: everyone does this the same way
09:30:31 <ericP> ... we formalized this obvious stuff
09:30:54 <ericP> [slide 6]
09:31:09 <ericP> [slide 8]
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09:32:54 <ericP> Juan: idea is to shift the prob from rdb-ont mapping problem to an ont-ont mapping problem
09:33:05 <ericP> [slide 10]
09:34:03 <ericP> -> http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=df7pbdbw_463cspkrfdh Juan's slides
09:36:30 <Ashok> topic:  EricP demo
09:36:32 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/1027-ISWC/SWObjects
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09:46:27 <Ashok> Eric shows demo
09:46:39 <Ashok> Has a paper that shows completeness
09:48:32 <Ashok> Pushes query down to SQL
09:48:58 <Ashok> Ashok:  Net this out for us ... what does this tell us
09:49:27 <Ashok> Eric:  I have another paper that is probably better for you guys
09:51:38 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/MappingRules/#linkedLOD-friendly 
09:51:47 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/07/MappingRules/#linked LOD-friendly 
09:52:14 <Ashok> Above has mapping rules to be friendly to linked data
09:53:08 <mhausenblas> Michael: I have now put the presentations so far at http://esw.w3.org/topic/Rdb2RdfXG/FirstF2F
09:58:52 <jsequeda> http://docs.google.com/Presentation?id=df7pbdbw_484hm92qccx   Chris' presentation
10:02:46 <ericP> topic: BSBM [Chris]
10:06:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #RDB2RDF
10:22:04 <mhausenblas> Michael: I've updated http://esw.w3.org/topic/Rdb2RdfXG/FirstF2F to point to Soeren's presentation as well (GDocs)
10:37:32 <ericP> ACTION: ChrisB to email the XG list to solicit other SPARQL-SQL rewriters to test
10:38:32 <ericP> Chris: [re generating URIs]
10:38:44 <ericP> ... we have d2rq and d2rserver
10:38:56 <ericP> ... in the mapping file, you can create URIs using patterns
10:39:11 <ericP> ... there is a placeholder which is filled with a value from the database
10:39:26 <ericP> ... you can also use translation (invertable) function you like
10:40:05 <ericP> Ashok: when i specify the mapping, i can write a function, but otherwise can use a function
10:40:13 <ericP> Chris: as long as it's invertable
10:40:20 <ericP> topic: OWL
10:40:57 <ericP> Bijan: [demo's slide]
10:41:46 <ericP> s/[demo's slide]//
10:42:14 <ericP> mhausenblas: could you liason with OWL2?
10:42:27 <ericP> Bijan: heading into LC. useful to get comments [early]
10:42:43 <ericP> ... my part of OWL is based on DLs
10:42:53 <Ashok> XG may want to comment on OWL 2 specs
10:42:57 <ericP> ... which is meant to reason over UmL and relational DBs
10:43:13 <ericP> ... so you can work at the conceptual level of your diagram
10:43:28 <ericP> ... you get reasoning functions to help with your conceptual models
10:44:00 <ericP> ... want to ask Q's of your conceptual view and have it work on your RDB
10:44:32 <ericP> ... can also use OWL for data-enrichment instead of reconciliation
10:45:13 <ericP> ... TMBIS project had a bunch of bio databases
10:45:43 <ericP> ... provided faceted browsing (as opposed to conjunctive queries)
10:46:11 <ericP> ... i understand we are working on a lang to go bi-directional between RDBs and OWL
10:46:18 <ericP> ... don't want to compete on the syntax
10:46:47 <ericP> ... want the user to have confidence, and to know what things they are trading off when picking a store
10:47:08 <ericP> ... also might be nice if it were usable
10:47:24 <ericP> .... some proponents of using SQL has a mapping language
10:47:37 <ericP> ... RDBs traditionally do model checking
10:48:00 <ericP> ... as in, you have a model in memory and you just check it
10:48:54 <ericP> ... when you go to RDFS, you can't do this so easily
10:49:41 <ericP> ... when you get to OWL full-glory, you can have very different data which fits the model (i.e. more than one model the check)
10:50:02 <ericP> ... (this is why OWL is good for ont-mapping)
10:50:20 <ericP> ... OWL folks working on profiles with expressivity/speed balancecs
10:50:53 <ericP> ... OWL-QL (least expressive) can be expanded into datalog only by representing the rule heads
10:51:39 <ericP> ... OWL-RL (primarily from Oracle) looks at the set of OWL which can be expressed in datalog
10:52:19 <ericP> ... since you can do this by expansion of queries, you can do distributed query answering
10:53:12 <ericP> ... you send your qyuery to different DBs; the data can overlap. it will rewrite your query from the global schema into local schemas
10:53:38 <ericP> ... you can download the Quanto DL engine
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10:54:56 <ericP> ... meta: here are some theoretical results; the group should focus on commercializing/standardizing this
10:55:20 <ericP> ... EL is a cut down DL
10:55:37 <ericP> ... you can use construct arbitrarily
10:55:47 <ericP> ... useful in Bio where they want rich ontologies
10:56:05 <ericP> ... in relational, you need to massage the data to extend it to the EL model
10:56:28 <ericP> ericP: you mean, add transitive closuere tables?
10:57:10 <ericP> Bijan: by analogy yes, perhaps not specifically
10:57:55 <ericP> ... there's a horrocks, perez paper which will generates the minimal datalog
10:59:53 <ericP> ... recursive datalog is expressible in SQL99, but you may not want to
11:00:46 <ericP> ACTION: Bijan to send and annotated bibliography to the XG list
11:02:09 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #rdb2rdf
11:03:25 <ericP> Bijan: a decision matrix would be useful
11:04:36 <Ashok> Topic:  Generating URIs for relational data (Prof. Themis Palpanas)
11:05:13 <ericP> Themis: need to gen ids when going from rdbms to rdf
11:05:32 <ericP> ... instead of arbitrary house style, have a structured (standard) way of doing this
11:05:45 <ericP> ... this will help them be unique and global
11:06:02 <ericP> Ashok: you want IDs for individual entities
11:06:34 <ericP> ... but in RDBs, an entity might be spread out amoungst tables
11:06:42 <ericP> Themis: different ways of attacking this
11:06:52 <ericP> ... in may cases, it's clear what the entity is
11:07:07 <ericP> ... e.g. Persons, Parts, Products
11:07:20 <ericP> ... many DBs talk about these things
11:07:55 <ericP> Soeren: when you have linked data providers, you want to use the same identifier
11:08:30 <ericP> ... want to see different ids which are linked to the same id
11:08:42 <ericP> Themis: we have an Entity Naming System
11:08:58 <ericP> ... assigns and manages IDs for these entities
11:09:21 <ericP> ... store only the minimal info to differentiate them
11:09:48 <ericP> ... use case: someone asks for X and it either already existed, or it gets created
11:10:08 <ericP> ... this can be a step in exporting the data to RDF
11:10:25 <ericP> ... gives more structured what to mint IDs
11:11:24 <ericP> q+ to suggest that provenance is where we handle differentiation
11:12:08 <ericP> Michael: I feel that a ENS breaks distribution and won't scale
11:12:29 <ericP> ... however, would work for schema names
11:12:49 <ericP> Orri: nice for schema names or the name of the bar where we gathered
11:12:59 <ericP> ... don't think it will work for the credit card transation
11:13:16 <ericP> Themis: ENS not applicable everywhere
11:13:42 <ericP> ... don't need different names for geolocations
11:14:12 <ericP> Cathy: i don't think the in-house will work politically
11:14:25 <ericP> Soeren: DNS is already political
11:14:45 <ericP> ... many folks are not happy with current DNS
11:14:46 <Ashok> +present Michael Hausenblas
11:15:06 <Ashok> +present +Soeren Auer
11:15:20 <ericP> Themis: not talking about it being central. can work like wikipedia
11:15:20 <Ashok> +present Orri Erling
11:15:43 <Ashok> +present Ivan Mikhailov
11:15:53 <ericP> q+ Michael
11:16:02 <ericP> q+ Orri
11:16:02 <Ashok> +present Themis Palpanas
11:16:09 <ericP> q+ Ivan
11:16:11 <ericP> q?
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11:17:05 <Ashok> +present Axel Polleres
11:17:30 <Ashok> +present Juan Sequeda
11:17:43 <Ashok> +present Jenny Green
11:18:00 <Ashok> +present Cathy Dolbear
11:18:19 <Ashok> +present Eric Prudhommeax
11:18:37 <Ashok> +Present Ashok Malhotra
11:18:58 <ericP> Micheal: when in a DB, you operate under closed world semantics
11:19:09 <ericP> ... when you hit the SW, it's open-world
11:19:12 <Ashok> q?
11:19:22 <ericP> q+ Orri
11:19:25 <ericP> q+ Ivan
11:20:03 <ericP> Micheal: will take action to see where ENS will and won't work
11:20:26 <ericP> Themis: makes sense in some senses 'cause it helps with the data integration problem
11:20:39 <ericP> ... using this kind of system does not preclude in-house ids
11:20:45 <ericP> ack orri
11:20:58 <ericP> orri: if i make a uri in my domain, i lean on DNS
11:21:10 <ericP> ... sameAs is exensive at query time
11:21:28 <ericP> ... the less sameAs, the better
11:21:55 <ericP> ... it least, there is nothing wrong with having having a world registry for these identifiers
11:22:07 <ericP> ... sameAs is more expensive than named graphs
11:22:15 <ericP> ack ivan
11:22:58 <ericP> ivan: in @@@ scenarios, the primary key suffices for gen'ing the shared identifier
11:23:15 <ericP> ... wikipedia-style disambiguation is trivial
11:26:19 <ericP> Themis: entities coming out of news agencies [are a good candidate]
11:26:46 <ericP> orri: news use case is quite clear
11:27:15 <ericP> Themis: dblp has different entities for the same real-world entity
11:27:47 <ericP> ... we are working on a process and tools to help db folks id-generation process
11:28:30 <ericP> ACTION: Michael to work with Themis on use cases for ENS
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11:45:12 <Ashok> rrsagent, make logs public
11:45:26 <Ashok> rrsagent, create minutes
11:45:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-minutes.html Ashok
11:46:50 <ericP> topic: b3s.openlink.com demo
11:47:11 <ericP> topic: b3s.openlinksw.com demo
11:48:18 <Ashok> http://b3s.openlinksw.com/
11:48:31 <ericP> orri: chris said that you couldn't fit the heterogenous db from the billion triple challenge in an RDB
11:48:45 <ericP> ... 1.5B triples running on 2 machines
11:49:16 <ericP> ... 12 clusters sparead across 2 machines
11:49:29 <ericP> ... we've extended SPARQL in all the necessary ways
11:49:52 <ericP> ... re: connection between
11:51:17 <ericP> ... both ends of the trans rel are supplied; clouds grow until they meet
12:05:02 <AxelPolleres> http://www.polleres.net/presentations/20081022w3cTPAC-talk.pdf
12:05:20 <ericP> ashock: you get RDF and it's indexed by default
12:05:25 <ericP> ... and you don't need a schema
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12:11:18 <Ashok> http://demo.openlinksw.com/tpc-h
12:42:59 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rdb2rdf
12:44:14 <AxelPolleres> http://xsparql.deri.org/  http://www.polleres.net/presentations/20081022w3cTPAC-talk.pdf (demo and slides for XSPARQL)
12:46:09 <Cathy> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dc9g594b_0hkgq652p&hl=en Ordnance Survey use case description
12:47:21 <Soeren> Soeren has joined #rdb2rdf
12:47:34 <ericP> -> http://xsparql.deri.org/  http://www.polleres.net/presentations/20081022w3cTPAC-talk.pdf demo and slides for XSPARQL
12:50:07 <ericP> AxelPolleres: is conventional SPARQL, there are no extensible generators
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12:51:19 <ericP> ... the base language is XQuery and we have injected some SPARQL bits
12:53:14 <ericP> ... i've seen several proposals for mapping langs
12:53:52 <ericP> ... generally canonical approach ala ericP, 
12:54:20 <ericP> ... @@@ [ schema-based ] mapping
12:54:27 <ericP> ... or proprietary
13:18:35 <ericP> -> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dc9g594b_0hkgq652p&hl=en Ordnance Survey use case description
13:18:58 <MatthiasHert> MatthiasHert has joined #rdb2rdf
13:18:58 <Ashok> Topic: Ordnance Survey Usecase
13:18:58 <ericP> topic: Ordnance Survey use case [Cathy]
13:20:12 <ericP> Cathy: 3 spacial databases in 3 oracle table spaces
13:23:49 <ericP> warehouse with more semantic annotation than SQL provides
13:26:07 <Ashok> Users can write SPARQL ans use ontologoes better than writing SQL
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13:33:44 <Ashok> q+ Ivan
13:37:22 <Ashok> ack Ivan
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14:05:10 <ericP> GeraldReif: so far we've heard about materialization and query-down
14:05:16 <ericP> ... but there is also query update
14:05:29 <ericP> ... we want to re-use the mappings that are there to do update
14:05:51 <ericP> ... if you insert only one triple, you maybe can't fill the whole database rule
14:06:15 <ericP> ... the system can tell you what else you need to maintain a consistent state
14:06:30 <ericP> ivan: we have a related proposal on the esw wiki
14:06:48 <ericP> ashok: where will you add this extra info?
14:06:56 <ericP> GeraldReif: to the mapping?
14:07:11 <ericP> orri: SQL knows which cols are NULLable
14:08:09 <ericP> ... triples are unordered, but to apply them to a RDB, you have to order them to fulfill referential constraints
14:08:20 <ericP> Soeren: usual updates are ordered
14:09:03 <ericP> orri: in SPARUL, you make a graph
14:09:14 <ericP> ... then you do the equivalent of a bulk load
14:11:10 <ericP> GeraldReif: you know which bits are missing, you can return structured errors helping the user fix what's missing
14:12:19 <ericP> topic: observed reqs
14:13:16 <ericP> ashok: conf language should be an XML language, not RDF
14:14:35 <ericP> ericP: you're nearly creating an XML syntax for SPARQL
14:15:37 <ericP> ashok: general mapping lang will be actually quite complex, but a simple profile
14:16:09 <ericP> Cathy: do you expect the complex lang for an upcoming doc?
14:16:18 <ericP> ashok: probably simple
14:16:37 <ericP> orri: expect the simple language to be asequeate for ETL
14:17:33 <ericP> ericP: why not RDF?
14:20:12 <ericP> orri: our meta-represention is something no one would want to write
14:25:58 <Ashok> orri:  RDF is harder to write
14:26:04 <Ashok> Eric disagrees
14:26:51 <Ashok> Discussion about whether language shd be XML or RDF
14:30:03 <AxelPolleres> not all RDF can be written in RDF/XML ... does it need more?
14:30:28 <Ashok> Eric: Our data (language) should be RDF also.  We are asking that all data be in RDF
14:30:33 <AxelPolleres> take http:/foo.bar/ in predicate position.
14:41:22 <Ashok> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:41:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-minutes.html Ashok
14:54:34 <Ashok> scribe: Ashok
14:55:09 <Ashok> Eric:  If you do not have a RDF syntax there will be opposition
14:55:56 <Ashok> Orri: The output of the mapping will be RDF or RDFS
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15:00:38 <Ashok> Orri:  The compromise that we reache3d w/Eric was that we have a SPARQL like language which we wrap in RDF.
15:03:44 <juan> juan has joined #RDB2RDF
15:05:35 <Ashok> Mapping must be ·	Customizable – names, data mapping, RDF/ontology generation Change names, data manipulation, etc. 
15:06:46 <Ashok> ·	Ability to add additional semantics – basically rules
15:07:33 <Ashok> Jenny:  Need rules both for mapping from db to ontology and between ontologies
15:07:53 <Ashok> Orri:  How expressive are rules
15:08:10 <Ashok> Jenny:  we use SWRL ... we will use RIF
15:08:20 <Ashok> Orri:  Do you have recursion
15:08:42 <Ashok> Jenny:  Yes.  Give examples of rules firing other rules
15:09:24 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:09:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:09:54 <Cathy> Jenny: In order to define a concept you have to define what the property is of that concept so you're defining a concept using the concept's properties
15:10:21 <Cathy> Askok: Orri, you'd like to push the rules down to the SQL layer, but that may not be possible
15:10:50 <Cathy> Jenny: There's enough info in the mappings of the concepts you use in the rules, to get a subset of the graph, and then fire the rules on that subset. 
15:11:06 <Cathy> if that didn't work, it'd be because you'd written the rules too verbosely
15:11:28 <Cathy> Askok: performance is better if you push the rules down to SQL, but you might not always want to do that
15:11:41 <Cathy> Jenny: Our rules are DL safe, so not full SWRL.
15:11:47 <Ashok> Jenny:  Rules are DL safe rules
15:11:59 <Cathy> Jenny: so the rules are always satisfiable
15:12:25 <Cathy> Ashok: are there other kinds of semantics people would like?
15:12:36 <Cathy> Orri: We'd need to classify the type of rule, but that'll come later
15:13:43 <Cathy> Michael: RIF is for rule exchange, so it might not be appropriate
15:15:02 <Cathy> Ashok: In terms of adding semantics, we want rules, and OWL semantics
15:15:24 <mhausenblas> Michael: why not using N3 http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Notation3
15:16:07 <Cathy> Jenny: So we propose that the WG look into whether people are needing to put rules into the mapping language, or are people wanting to push them up to the reasoner. Is it the job of the mapping file, or of the reasoner/rule engine?
15:16:24 <Ashok> Jenny:  Look at how people are using rules anf then decide.
15:16:49 <mhausenblas> Michael: see also recent W3C team submission http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/n3/
15:17:59 <Ashok> MH:  N3 allows rules to be integrated with RDF
15:19:24 <Ashok> ·	Generating identifiers for Relational data
15:21:33 <Ashok> MH:  Dereferenceable http URIs
15:25:09 <Ashok> Ashok:  Access rights are important
15:27:12 <mhausenblas> s/MH/Michael:
15:27:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #RDB2RDF
15:32:27 <Ashok> Ashok: Do not want to reinvent database access management, etc.
15:32:58 <Ashok> Orri:  With ETL no security but is mapped back to the database then database can enforce access rights
15:33:17 <mhausenblas> scribenick: mhausenblas
15:33:22 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:33:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:34:13 <mhausenblas> Themis: can use ENS for this?
15:35:06 <mhausenblas> Orri: there are persitent entities of public interest (places, people, etc) that might have for example DBPedia URI
15:35:15 <mhausenblas> ... can also be used with ENS
15:36:17 <mhausenblas> ... using internal lookup function a mapping can be done
15:36:33 <mhausenblas> ... using ENS where appropriate
15:37:59 <Ashok> Ashok: ·	Integrating data from other sources – impact on queries
15:38:24 <mhausenblas> Ashok: not trying to extended it to too many cases (XML, spread sheets, etc.)
15:40:51 <mhausenblas> Orri: we could for example say that implementations may allow the coexistence of virtual triples beside other triples
15:41:59 <mhausenblas> Ashok: two other things left
15:42:15 <mhausenblas> ... (from Bijan's morning session)
15:42:32 <mhausenblas> ... some guideance on the OWL subset used
15:43:01 <mhausenblas> Orri: propose to start with QL/RL
15:43:24 <mhausenblas> Ashok: last point
15:43:33 <mhausenblas> (Gerald mentioned it)
15:43:39 <mhausenblas> ... re updating stuff
15:43:55 <mhausenblas> Orri: updating is an overkill - out of scope
15:44:29 <mhausenblas> Michael: doubt that we are chartered to do that
15:45:09 <mhausenblas> ... should we mentioned?
15:45:21 <mhausenblas> Orri: yes
15:45:58 <mhausenblas> Ivan: bit different phrasing ... couple it with SPARQL Update [scribe unsure]
15:46:09 <mhausenblas> Ashok: not preferable
15:46:25 <mhausenblas> ... so we mention it to state 'not in this phase'
15:47:54 <mhausenblas> Michael: is data provenance and licensing an issue?
15:48:14 <mhausenblas> Ashok: we should mention it but we will not be able to solve that issue, I guess
15:48:27 <mhausenblas> Orri: should mention but not deep
15:50:39 <mhausenblas> Ashok: Let's sleep over it and contemplate
15:52:11 <Ashok> rrsagent, create minutes
15:52:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-minutes.html Ashok
15:52:14 <mhausenblas> Michael: I'll be around tomorrow at 8:30 to set up stuff so that we can start sharply
15:54:12 <mhausenblas> bye RRSAgent
15:54:19 <mhausenblas> bye, RRSAgent
15:54:28 <mhausenblas> bye Zakim
15:54:37 <mhausenblas> Zakim, bye
15:54:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdb2rdf
15:54:44 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, bye
15:54:44 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-actions.rdf :
15:54:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisB to email the XG list to solicit other SPARQL-SQL rewriters to test [1]
15:54:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-irc#T10-37-32
15:54:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bijan to send and annotated bibliography to the XG list [2]
15:54:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-irc#T11-00-46
15:54:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to work with Themis on use cases for ENS [3]
15:54:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-RDB2RDF-irc#T11-28-30