IRC log of egov on 2008-10-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:39:01 [RRSAgent]
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12:39:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:39:09 [Zakim]
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12:39:30 [josema]
chair: john
12:39:55 [josema]
scribe: benjamin
12:40:03 [josema]
agenda+ Convene, agenda adjustments
12:40:21 [josema]
agenda+ Introductions - new people onboard?
12:40:35 [josema]
agenda+ F2F Meeting debrief
12:40:51 [josema]
agenda+ Review of the Topic Areas
12:41:05 [josema]
agenda+ Assign people (+use cases) to areas
12:41:18 [josema]
agenda+ Next Meeting
12:41:20 [josema]
12:56:13 [josema]
zakim, this will be egov
12:56:13 [Zakim]
ok, josema; I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
12:56:17 [josema]
12:56:22 [BeNg]
BeNg has joined #egov
12:58:46 [Zakim]
T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has now started
12:58:54 [Zakim]
12:59:53 [josema]
trackbot, start telcon
12:59:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:59:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be EGOV
12:59:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM already started
12:59:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
12:59:58 [trackbot]
Date: 29 October 2008
13:00:03 [josema]
chair: john
13:00:07 [josema]
scribe: benjamin
13:00:18 [josema]
scribeNick: BeNg
13:00:31 [Zakim]
13:00:31 [Zakim]
13:00:31 [Zakim]
13:00:55 [Owen]
Owen has joined #egov
13:01:48 [Zakim]
13:02:02 [Zakim]
13:02:47 [Zakim]
+ +03161830aaaa
13:03:09 [josema]
zakim, aaaa is martin
13:03:09 [Zakim]
+martin; got it
13:03:55 [Tom]
Tom has joined #egov
13:04:45 [Zakim]
13:04:58 [Tom]
Zakim, Rinke is Tom
13:04:58 [Zakim]
+Tom; got it
13:05:25 [BeNg]
no problem
13:05:35 [BeNg]
josema : john and kevin will join later
13:05:45 [josema]
zakim, move to next agendum
13:05:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, agenda adjustments" taken up [from josema]
13:05:48 [BeNg]
josema : I will be chairing
13:05:55 [BeNg]
josema : any additions to agenda ?
13:06:03 [josema]
13:06:20 [Rachel]
Rachel has joined #egov
13:06:43 [BeNg]
josema : [goes through the agenda]
13:07:03 [martin]
martin has joined #egov
13:07:07 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:07:07 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Introductions - new people onboard?" taken up [from josema]
13:07:45 [BeNg]
josema : is this Tom's first call ?
13:07:55 [martin]
martin has joined #egov
13:07:56 [Tom]
no it isn't
13:08:08 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:08:08 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "F2F Meeting debrief" taken up [from josema]
13:08:20 [josema]
13:08:26 [Tom]
unfortunately I couldn't be present in the F2F meeting, sorry for that...
13:08:29 [Zakim]
+ +0774702aabb
13:08:45 [josema]
zakim, aabb is john
13:08:45 [Zakim]
+john; got it
13:08:58 [BeNg]
josema : message sent to the list with minutes
13:10:02 [josema]
zakim, please mute john
13:10:02 [Zakim]
john should now be muted
13:10:42 [Rinke]
Rinke has joined #egov
13:10:49 [BeNg]
josema : very broad, F2F big success
13:10:59 [BeNg]
... 12 areas identified where the group will work
13:11:03 [josema]
13:11:08 [josema]
summary of topic areas
13:11:34 [BeNg]
... most of the topics on the first day was scoping the work
13:11:49 [BeNg]
... newt day was review in detail the more complicated issues and assign people to specific areas
13:11:57 [BeNg]
13:12:16 [BeNg]
... eGov must act as a channel between governments and other W3C groups
13:12:48 [BeNg]
... if we hear of anything a gov needs, go and inform a group, conversely, see what W3C has to offer and tell this to govs
13:12:58 [josema]
13:13:49 [BeNg]
martin : we narrowed down the issues to detailled subjects upon whch we can start working upon
13:14:15 [BeNg]
... will link to my document
13:14:34 [BeNg]
... issue of authentification shared by many governments
13:14:52 [BeNg]
... each provider offers its own authentication method
13:15:06 [BeNg]
... main problem is getting a proper ID to each citizen
13:15:14 [BeNg]
... and prevent identity fraud
13:15:34 [josema]
zakim, unmute john
13:15:34 [Zakim]
john should no longer be muted
13:15:56 [Tom]
main problem seems to be conflict of interest between vendors. a semantic and technical interoperability solution should solve this
13:16:07 [martin]
I cannot hear John
13:16:15 [josema]
zakim, mute john
13:16:15 [Zakim]
john should now be muted
13:16:23 [josema]
zakim, drop john
13:16:23 [Zakim]
john is being disconnected
13:16:24 [Zakim]
13:16:27 [josema]
13:16:48 [josema]
13:17:15 [Zakim]
13:18:00 [josema]
zakim, mute john
13:18:00 [Zakim]
john should now be muted
13:18:04 [OCR]
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13:18:07 [Zakim]
13:18:08 [josema]
move the next agendum
13:18:14 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:18:14 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review of the Topic Areas" taken up [from josema]
13:19:03 [Zakim]
13:19:22 [josema]
zakim, who's noisy?
13:19:24 [Zakim]
13:19:32 [Zakim]
josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Benjamin (27%), john (5%), martin (43%)
13:19:35 [Zakim]
+ +34.98.439.aacc
13:19:48 [josema]
zakim, aacc is oscar
13:19:48 [Zakim]
+oscar; got it
13:20:17 [josema]
zakim, who's noisy?
13:20:20 [martin]
13:20:30 [Zakim]
josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: martin (27%), Tom (15%)
13:21:15 [josema]
13:21:38 [josema]
-> topic areas
13:21:58 [BeNg]
josema : check is something is missing from topic areas
13:22:31 [BeNg]
... I found one missing over the WE
13:22:49 [BeNg]
... there already are volunteers to work on some topic areas
13:23:03 [BeNg]
... others not present can also contribute
13:23:35 [BeNg]
... go through all the topics ?
13:23:44 [Tom]
why not
13:23:58 [Rachel]
yes please
13:24:17 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
13:24:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Benjamin, Josema, rachel, owen, martin, Tom, oscar
13:24:18 [Zakim]
On IRC I see OCR, Rinke, martin, Rachel, Tom, Owen, BeNg, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:24:43 [BeNg]
josema : semantic interoperability
13:25:19 [martin]
info on
13:25:28 [BeNg]
... semic: european repository of interoperability assets (XML schemas)
13:25:34 [BeNg]
... used by governments in Europe
13:25:52 [BeNg]
... make assets reusable by others
13:26:16 [kjetil]
Zakim, what is the code?
13:26:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil
13:26:30 [Zakim]
13:26:35 [Tom]
that doesn't sound like semantic interoperability to me but rather sharing data structure
13:26:44 [kjetil]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
13:26:44 [Zakim]
+kjetil; got it
13:27:06 [kjetil]
Zakim, mute me
13:27:06 [Zakim]
kjetil should now be muted
13:27:24 [BeNg]
josema : it is difficult to involve in the WG
13:27:30 [BeNg]
... it is not possible for them to joion W3C
13:27:42 [BeNg]
... have them as invited experts ?
13:27:57 [BeNg]
... they should bring semantic interoperability to the group.
13:29:08 [martin]
13:29:13 [josema]
13:29:23 [BeNg]
martin : tom points out this is not semantic interoperability
13:29:33 [BeNg]
... its supposed to becoma a base to semantic interoperability
13:29:46 [BeNg]
... the project started as an XML clearing house (?)
13:29:46 [josema]
13:29:56 [josema]
13:30:11 [BeNg]
... the idea is now to collect assets and reuse them (or their methodology)
13:30:23 [BeNg]
Tom : there are more interesting things going on in the legal field
13:30:34 [BeNg]
... criminal records for instance
13:30:54 [BeNg]
... it is important to go beyond structural information
13:31:21 [BeNg]
martin : legal aspects are part of semic
13:31:33 [BeNg]
tom : not noticeable in the member states
13:31:53 [BeNg]
tom : look at the ejustice field
13:32:07 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:32:08 [BeNg]
... criminal records are supported by european directives member states must exchange criminal record
13:32:27 [BeNg]
... there is a need of exchanging the semantic of the criminal records, not just the structure
13:32:43 [BeNg]
... can not be understood just by looking at the terms
13:32:59 [BeNg]
... we must get compatibility with these records
13:33:08 [BeNg]
13:33:26 [BeNg]
josema : find people working on this and provide more information, build a use case around this example
13:33:45 [BeNg]
... add it into our document as an example of things going on
13:34:10 [BeNg]
tom : 2 important conferences on this issue, one tomorrow inflorence
13:34:19 [BeNg]
"law on tho internet" (?)
13:34:23 [Owen]
In the U.S. government the sharing of law enforcement/first responder data is a major thrust, through the National Information Exchange Model (NIEM):
13:34:24 [josema]
s/inflorence/ in Florence
13:34:54 [BeNg]
[missed the other]
13:35:32 [BeNg]
josema : 2nd topic : Persistent URIs
13:35:39 [Tom]
13:36:15 [BeNg]
... personnal experience : seems too technical for governments
13:36:21 [John]
This is a topic very close to my heart - and an important one for the group - also for the W3C
13:36:27 [Tom]
13:36:27 [BeNg]
... the W3C must speak in better terms to governments
13:37:16 [BeNg]
... once something goes on the web it must be archived for ever
13:37:40 [BeNg]
... ie, internet archive
13:38:44 [BeNg]
... John volunteered on this topic.
13:39:03 [BeNg]
josema : Topic 3 : Performance Data + Citizen Choice
13:39:16 [BeNg]
... noone volunteered at F2F
13:39:30 [BeNg]
.. we had a long discussion, but we were not sure we were scoping the topic area enough
13:39:44 [BeNg]
... we discussed some example, health in the UK
13:40:50 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:40:58 [Tom]
also important for law cases (just had to release criminals since the original material could not be reproduced in appeal)
13:41:00 [Owen]
US GPO's summary of results of its beta test of Handles is available at
13:41:33 [BeNg]
... publishing gov information in a way the consumers can get it and use it in the way they want
13:41:51 [Tom]
My remark refers to preservation of digital data.
13:41:53 [BeNg]
... this can take place outside gov web sites
13:42:47 [BeNg]
oscar : what is the perception of the data provided by govs to the users
13:43:14 [BeNg]
... ie, if you have a child and several schools they can attend, how is data made available ?
13:43:28 [BeNg]
... The data must be incorporated into decision making of citizens.
13:44:02 [BeNg]
... Information is also shared in C2C (citizen 2 citizen) communities
13:44:23 [BeNg]
... citizen must also be able to shared their experience so as to improve gov services
13:44:48 [Owen]
An article on US LOC's use of PURLs is available at
13:44:58 [BeNg]
... users can also created their own performance data, use the information in a specific way.
13:45:33 [Zakim]
13:45:43 [BeNg]
josema : topic 4 : Data Sharing Policy Expression
13:46:21 [BeNg]
... main example is the uk survey
13:46:35 [martin]
my mobile went down, need to find an adapter
13:46:53 [BeNg]
... once data is available in an open format, it could be necessary to attach a policy (licence) to the data
13:47:40 [BeNg]
... ie, citizens can use the information for free, but a company that will use it for commercial purposes then it needs to pay
13:47:49 [BeNg]
... 1) how is data available
13:48:02 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:48:08 [BeNg]
... 2) how to attach the policy
13:48:14 [Zakim]
13:48:20 [BeNg]
... 3) verify that the organizations using the data are following the policies
13:49:17 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:49:31 [BeNg]
josema : Topic 5 : Digital Preservation + Authenticity + Temporal Degradation
13:49:48 [BeNg]
... persistent URIs, but not only
13:50:04 [BeNg]
... provenance problem also
13:50:17 [josema]
13:50:32 [BeNg]
.. we compared how the paper world and digital worlds compare
13:50:44 [BeNg]
13:51:21 [BeNg]
... another example is how to release information that was once classified after a period of time has gone by
13:51:28 [Owen]
With reference to data sharing policy, the draft XSD for the US FEA DRM contains elements such as <AccessControlProtocol>, <AvailabilityLevel>, and <ConfidentialityLevel>.
13:51:29 [BeNg]
... and authentify the fact that data was not altered
13:52:07 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:52:17 [BeNg]
oscar : digital preservation concerns archives
13:52:27 [Zakim]
13:52:29 [Zakim]
13:52:29 [Zakim]
13:52:43 [BeNg]
I have been cut off
13:52:51 [Tom]
so have I
13:52:52 [josema]
I see, tom and oscar, too :(
13:53:12 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:53:12 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
13:53:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Josema, rachel, owen, kjetil (muted), martin
13:53:13 [Zakim]
On IRC I see John, OCR, Rinke, martin, Rachel, Tom, Owen, BeNg, Zakim, RRSAgent, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:53:17 [OCR]
can't hear ..
13:53:28 [OCR]
will hangup & join again
13:53:33 [josema]
oscar, your phone was disconnected, can you dial in again?
13:53:35 [josema]
13:53:37 [Zakim]
13:53:47 [OCR]
zakim, what is the code?
13:53:47 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), OCR
13:54:17 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:54:43 [Zakim]
13:55:21 [Zakim]
13:55:28 [John]
John has joined #egov
13:56:33 [BeNg]
oscar : check what the current solutions are : in particular data signatures
13:56:54 [BeNg]
.. engage with W3C groups to see what is available concerning digital signatures
13:57:18 [BeNg]
josema : it is the Nat archives core business
13:57:29 [John]
13:58:14 [josema]
benjamin: use case proposed was copying encrypted document ??
13:58:18 [John]
would be good to identify which W3C groups we should be talking to
13:58:22 [josema]
... I might contribute in that aspect
13:58:29 [BeNg]
copying encrypted document on a large P2P network
13:59:03 [martin]
Benjamin: to guarantee integrity over time
13:59:26 [BeNg]
josema : build agendas in future meetings with invited guests
13:59:42 [BeNg]
.. to interact with them, ie, XML data signatures
13:59:45 [John]
thats a great idea
14:00:06 [BeNg]
josema : Topic 6 : IPR Expession
14:00:21 [BeNg]
... licence attached to the data itself is one example
14:01:04 [John]
Are people familiar with ACAP:
14:01:24 [BeNg]
josema : martin mentionned the creative comments licence
14:01:35 [Rinke]
14:01:44 [BeNg]
.. but this licence could be conflicting with the one used in the UK
14:01:52 [John]
the licence and the technology (cc's use of RDFa) are very interesting
14:02:07 [BeNg]
martin : yes, using creative comments restricts some rights granted with the licence used today
14:02:20 [BeNg]
... this could be linked to the differences between common law and civil law
14:02:26 [kjetil]
14:02:41 [kjetil]
ack me
14:02:42 [josema]
ack m
14:02:58 [kjetil]
yeah, I can hear you
14:03:04 [kjetil]
14:03:11 [josema]
zakim, who's noisy?
14:03:23 [Zakim]
josema, listening for 11 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:04:11 [kjetil]
well, what I was going to say that what the license says and the technical aspects are different
14:04:34 [kjetil]
so, the CC RDF/RDFa things could be used
14:05:04 [kjetil]
even though one would need different URIs for the actual license permissions and restrictions
14:06:32 [kjetil]
Zakim, mute me
14:06:32 [Zakim]
kjetil should now be muted
14:06:57 [BeNg]
josema : Topic 7 : Identification + Authentication
14:07:28 [BeNg]
martin : see the report that identifies some of the issues to be dealt with
14:07:35 [BeNg]
... use this as a starting point
14:07:36 [josema]
the report:
14:08:09 [BeNg]
martin : this is identified by the dutch gov as a serious problem
14:08:21 [BeNg]
josema : topic 8 : Data Aggregation
14:09:00 [josema]
benjamin: data from different points of view, government, citizen
14:09:17 [josema]
... how to get aggregated views of that data
14:09:36 [josema]
... use case eVoting, statistics on specific information, eg: health
14:10:01 [josema]
martin: also criminal records
14:10:15 [josema]
benjamin: put there on temporal degradation
14:10:30 [Owen]
Policy guidance for U.S. federal agencies on a common means of identification & authentication is provided at
14:10:37 [BeNg]
josema : topic 9 : Your Web Site is your API (eg. RDFa, sitemaps?)
14:11:07 [BeNg]
RDFa and sitemaps (XML schema used to make content easier to discover by search engines)
14:11:17 [John]
John has joined #egov
14:11:44 [BeNg]
oscar : amount o fdata available in public organisations
14:11:55 [John]
John has joined #egov
14:11:56 [BeNg]
... data is explosed in human readable format
14:12:08 [BeNg]
... we want to promote the use of this information in machine readable format
14:12:31 [BeNg]
... some experiences have already been done
14:12:48 [BeNg]
martin : we are currently working in th NL on a search engine
14:13:04 [BeNg]
... to verify that the information retrieved by citizen from a web site is correct
14:13:14 [John]
John has joined #egov
14:13:38 [BeNg]
... [something about disclaimers on how information is retrieved on the internet]
14:13:55 [BeNg]
... working on creating an RDF environment
14:14:15 [josema]
14:14:25 [BeNg]
josema : topic 10 : What Data? How does the government decide?
14:14:46 [martin]
A disclaimer on infomation found on government websites may in the future be legally binding
14:14:48 [BeNg]
... 1) how does the gov decide what data should be made available
14:15:03 [BeNg]
... in some countries like the US, there are laws in place stating this
14:15:12 [BeNg]
... in other countries (spain) this does not exist
14:15:24 [BeNg]
... 2) what's the best way to put the data out there
14:15:45 [BeNg]
... need to convince some govs of the benefic it has of providing the data
14:15:52 [BeNg]
... making a positive case to govs is difficult
14:16:00 [BeNg]
... find examples of things working right now
14:16:10 [Tom]
Also in the NL: except if security or other interests of the state are on stake. Of course data on individuals/businesses is not accessible either.
14:16:23 [BeNg]
... BDPedia
14:16:38 [kjetil]
14:16:54 [josema]
14:17:25 [josema]
14:17:55 [BeNg]
owen : in the US, under the electronic freedom act amendment
14:18:05 [BeNg]
.. agencies must make available any record that are requested by one individual
14:18:11 [BeNg]
... and of interest for at least 3 others
14:18:25 [BeNg]
... agencies must make resonable efforts to share them in any format they are requested
14:18:40 [BeNg]
... the application is clear : agencies must create and maintain a readily shareable format, such as XML
14:19:06 [BeNg]
... if they do not do that they break the spirit of the law
14:19:52 [BeNg]
josema : is the issue that they know how to publish in open formats but do not do it ?
14:20:00 [BeNg]
... or that they do not know how to publish in open format
14:20:34 [BeNg]
owen : several issues
14:20:55 [BeNg]
... long in responding to requests, agnecies claim they do not have the resources to make information available in a timely manner
14:21:15 [BeNg]
... sometimes this is true due to security issues, in other cases, it is a design issu problem with their information systems
14:21:27 [BeNg]
josema : propose some guidelines to them
14:21:55 [BeNg]
owen : they should start by publishing on their web site XML schemas for all their information collections
14:22:08 [BeNg]
... so we can understand what data they have and build a registry bottom up
14:22:29 [BeNg]
... once we have understood what information they have, we must then publish to what extent they are publishing said information
14:22:49 [BeNg]
... and take actions if they are not offering enough information
14:23:13 [BeNg]
... the data reference model is about sharing of data. I was a member of the WG that produced this model
14:23:37 [BeNg]
... agencies must implement the DRM as XML Schema on their web sites
14:23:47 [BeNg]
... but they pushed back against the use of this global schema
14:23:54 [josema]
rrsagent, pointer?
14:23:54 [RRSAgent]
14:23:55 [BeNg]
... they want to continue using their own formats
14:24:00 [John]
John has joined #egov
14:24:23 [BeNg]
josema : can use this as a use case ?
14:24:50 [BeNg]
owen : finalizing the DRM for XML schema would be an outstanding effort
14:25:59 [josema]
ACTION owen to draft XML Schema for DRM as use case to use it for 10. What data?
14:25:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-33 - Draft XML Schema for DRM as use case to use it for 10. What data? [on Owen Ambur - due 2008-11-05].
14:26:18 [BeNg]
josema : topic 11 : Participation in Social Media; what are the rules ?
14:26:48 [BeNg]
... all sorts of social media one can think of, and how all this is evolving on the web, ie. twitter
14:27:18 [BeNg]
... blogs, are posters representing their agencies or not
14:27:54 [BeNg]
... citizens discussing many issues amongst themselves
14:28:21 [BeNg]
... UK and NZ example : a policy for the public servants
14:29:17 [josema]
W3C workshop:
14:29:50 [BeNg]
... Karen Myers suggested the workshop above
14:30:12 [BeNg]
... John will draft a position paper on social networking
14:30:50 [BeNg]
topic 12 : Temporal Data
14:30:50 [BeNg]
Legislation/Legal (Law Reports)
14:30:50 [BeNg]
14:31:27 [josema]
benjamin: what to do with evolution of data?
14:32:06 [josema]
... if should be possible to refer to specific revisions of a document
14:32:45 [josema]
... and how link to that in a consistent manner
14:32:51 [John]
John has joined #egov
14:32:53 [josema]
move to next agendum
14:32:53 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Assign people (+use cases) to areas" taken up [from josema]
14:33:23 [BeNg]
josema : do this by email
14:33:54 [josema]
14:34:27 [BeNg]
... deadline : mid november : topic areas should be fixed
14:34:32 [BeNg]
.. and at least one use case per area
14:34:45 [BeNg]
... not something too deatailled for the moment
14:34:48 [josema]
move to next agendum
14:34:48 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Next Meeting" taken up [from josema]
14:35:14 [BeNg]
josema : next meeting 12 nov
14:35:22 [BeNg]
... at 1500 CET
14:35:28 [John]
John has joined #egov
14:35:49 [Zakim]
14:35:57 [Rinke]
14:36:00 [josema]
14:36:01 [Zakim]
14:36:05 [Zakim]
14:36:06 [Zakim]
14:36:06 [Zakim]
14:36:16 [Zakim]
14:36:18 [John]
sorry for being "on/off"!
14:36:18 [Zakim]
14:36:23 [BeNg]
anything to do to draft minutes jose ?
14:36:36 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:36:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate josema
14:36:37 [Zakim]
14:36:38 [Zakim]
T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended
14:36:39 [Zakim]
Attendees were Benjamin, Josema, rachel, owen, +03161830aaaa, martin, Tom, +0774702aabb, john, +34.98.439.aacc, oscar, kjetil
14:36:57 [josema]
thanks much benjamin! :)
14:36:57 [Tom]
Tom has left #egov
14:37:01 [josema]
I take care of cleaning and publishing them
14:37:07 [BeNg]
ok great !
14:37:20 [josema]
john, I hope I did not miss anything important
14:37:28 [BeNg]
bye all
14:37:34 [John]
you did a great job Jose!
14:37:51 [josema]
it took me more than expected to get to the last agendum so still some topic areas without volunteers
14:37:58 [BeNg]
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14:38:35 [josema]
I'll put the areas somewhere in the wiki, and I hope you could take a look at the Activity Plan and change as appropriate
14:38:41 [josema]
we need to update it
14:38:55 [John]
good idea - and I agree
14:40:02 [josema]
zakim, bye
14:40:02 [Zakim]
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14:57:02 [darobin]
darobin has joined #egov
16:03:19 [josema]
rrsagent, bye
16:03:20 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items