15:09:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #badtf
15:09:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-irc
15:09:39 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #badtf
15:09:46 <shadi> zakim, this will be bad
15:09:46 <Zakim> ok, shadi; I see WAI_EOWG(BAD TF)12:00PM scheduled to start in 51 minutes
15:09:54 <shadi> zakim, ping me in 45
15:09:54 <Zakim> ok, shadi
15:17:51 <jspoorta> jspoorta has joined #badtf
15:51:53 <ericeggert> ericeggert has joined #badtf
15:54:54 <Zakim> shadi, you asked to be pinged at this time
15:55:37 <shadi> shadi has changed the topic to: Before and After Demo (BAD) Task Force
15:55:38 <shadi> meeting: BAD TF
15:55:38 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-eo-badtf/2008Oct/0000.html
15:55:38 <shadi> chair: Shadi
15:55:38 <shadi> regrets: Steve
15:55:38 <shadi> agenda+ Welcome
15:55:40 <shadi> agenda+ Round the table introductions
15:55:43 <shadi> agenda+ Introduction of the BAD TF work
15:55:44 <shadi> agenda+ Volunteering for action items
15:55:46 <shadi> agenda+ Next meeting(s)
15:57:14 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG(BAD TF)12:00PM has now started
15:57:21 <Zakim> + +03130239aaaa
15:58:25 <Zakim> +??P2
15:58:27 <Zakim> - +03130239aaaa
15:58:29 <Zakim> + +03130239aaaa
15:59:14 <shadi> zakim, code?
15:59:14 <Zakim> the conference code is 11272 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), shadi
15:59:26 <Zakim> -??P2
15:59:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:55 <Michael> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:59:55 <Zakim> +Michael; got it
16:00:33 <Zakim> + +1.714.968.aabb
16:00:43 <Zakim> + +49.173.673.aacc
16:01:09 <Zakim> +Sylvie_Duchateau
16:01:13 <Michael> zakim, who is on the phone
16:01:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Michael
16:01:14 <Zakim> +shadi
16:01:25 <ericeggert> Zakim, aacc is me
16:01:25 <Zakim> +ericeggert; got it
16:01:50 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is Jan
16:01:50 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
16:02:08 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jan, Michael, +1.714.968.aabb, ericeggert, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), shadi
16:02:27 <shadi> zakim, aabb is Tom
16:02:27 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
16:02:31 <Michael> zakim, mute me
16:02:31 <Zakim> Michael should now be muted
16:02:36 <Sylvie> Sylvie has joined #badtf
16:02:50 <Michael> zakim, unmute me
16:02:50 <Zakim> Michael should no longer be muted
16:03:04 <ericeggert> zakim, mute me
16:03:04 <Zakim> ericeggert should now be muted
16:03:13 <maik_w> maik_w has joined #badtf
16:04:24 <ericeggert> fullack
16:04:33 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jan, Michael, Tom, ericeggert (muted), Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), shadi
16:04:39 <Zakim> + +49.201.750.0.aadd
16:04:50 <shadi> zakim, aadd is Maik
16:04:50 <Zakim> +Maik; got it
16:05:05 <ericeggert> zakim, unmute me
16:05:05 <Zakim> ericeggert should no longer be muted
16:06:11 <shadi> scribe: ericeggert
16:06:36 <shadi> agenda?
16:07:01 <shadi> zakim, take up agendum 1
16:07:01 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome" taken up [from shadi]
16:08:17 <shadi> zakim, take up next
16:08:17 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Round the table introductions" taken up [from shadi]
16:11:40 <ericeggert> Jan Sjoerd: Working in an Accessibility Foundation expecting Websites for Accessibility Guidelines
16:12:11 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:12:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jan, Michael, Tom, ericeggert, Sylvie_Duchateau (muted), shadi, Maik
16:12:26 <shadi> s/expecting/inspecting
16:12:35 <jspoorta> inspecting
16:13:07 <ericeggert> Michael: A managing partner of a small web company in vienna called Wienfluss, which does everything with accessibility, Member of the WAI-AGE TF
16:14:55 <ericeggert> Tom: Teaching Computer Science on the Longbeach Campus, California State University, and works on their web accessibility programm
16:15:40 <shadi> Eric: from Germany, studying in Vienna. Freelance Web developer/designer and focusing on Web accessibility
16:15:53 <shadi> ...memeber of WebKrauts and HTML5 Working Group
16:16:07 <shadi> s/memeber/member
16:16:40 <ericeggert> Sylvie: BaillNet in Paris, France, Evaluation of Websites, Education annd Outreach WG
16:17:26 <ericeggert> Mike: Small company, developing websites concentrating on Usability and Accessibility 
16:17:39 <Sylvie> s/bailnet/BrailleNet
16:17:50 <shadi> zakim, take up next
16:17:50 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Introduction of the BAD TF work" taken up [from shadi]
16:18:02 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/
16:19:13 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/WAI-AGE/
16:19:16 <ericeggert> BAD TF startet in 2005, never finished. Our task is to update it, to the WCAG2 and under the WAI-AGE projects subjects.
16:21:03 <ericeggert> Shadi: Other Task Force on the Deliverables. The AGE TF evaluated what updates are needed. We will implement those updates, probably until christmas or early january.
16:22:19 <ericeggert> Shadi: Both operate under the EOWG, where everybody is invited to participate. Feel free to get involved.
16:23:28 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/changelog#waiage
16:24:26 <ericeggert> Shadi: Get into the details. http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/changelog#waiage is the overall changelog. There is a link with requirements prior to that section.
16:25:45 <ericeggert> Shadi: We will concentrate on the update section. We want to update the demo to reach WCAG2 AA at least, AAA is great. And there are other things to do, and leftovers from other discussions.
16:26:53 <shadi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-age/2008OctDec/0025.html
16:27:47 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/waiage
16:27:56 <Michael> Zakim, mute me
16:27:56 <Zakim> Michael should now be muted
16:28:24 <Michael> Zakim, unmute me
16:28:24 <Zakim> Michael should no longer be muted
16:29:46 <ericeggert> Shadi: Two links marked with asterisks are important suggestions/emails. We looked into all requirements and identified if they are in the Demos yet. “No” shows demos which aren't exactly shown in before and after demos.
16:31:54 <Michael> more commands for zakim: http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot
16:32:37 <Zakim> +Liam
16:34:14 <ericeggert> Liam: Sorry, I'm late, DST. I'm member of the EOWG and was a member of the BAD TF before.
16:35:30 <ericeggert> Shadi: We will work with WCAG2 this time, so everybody should be familiar with the comparison between WCAG1 and 2.
16:35:56 <ericeggert> Shadi: Some are already working with WCAG2, any questions.
16:36:41 <ericeggert> Tom: It's probably more a problem to evaluate this and do the documentation then implement it in code.
16:37:19 <ericeggert> Shadi: We have to figure out how we report ist, that should be the easier part.
16:37:55 <ericeggert> Tom: I would look into that and see what is compatible to WCAG2 already.
16:38:13 <ericeggert> Shadi: Thanks for that, we come back to that point later.
16:39:06 <ericeggert> Shadi: The demo form needs to be improved, CSS must be cleaned up and the HTML, too. The Idea was that developers can reuse that code.
16:41:03 <ericeggert> Shadi: We need minor changes, marked open on the site. We need an in-between page which shows errors and highlight the errors and show those best practices.
16:41:19 <ericeggert> Tom: Thats great from a usability perspective.
16:42:07 <ericeggert> Shadi: What is not on the list: Improving the navigation through the whole suite. Michael had some ideas about that…
16:42:29 <ericeggert> Michael: I will provide a mockup or a wireframe, which we can then discuss.
16:43:51 <ericeggert> Shadi: Improvements of the Evaluation Report of implementing items from the wish list. That is a should, not a must requirement.
16:44:13 <ericeggert> Shadi: Questions or comments?
16:45:13 <ericeggert> Tom: There’s WCAG1 in the open review notes...
16:45:30 <ericeggert> Shadi: We will update that document, it’s still from 2005.
16:46:06 <ericeggert> Shadi: Some things are even already adressed since 2005.
16:47:40 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2005/Demo/before/index
16:48:06 <shadi> zakim, take up next
16:48:06 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Volunteering for action items" taken up [from shadi]
16:49:19 <shadi> action: Michael to provide mockups for the navigation through the Demo site
16:50:29 <ericeggert> action: Tom to do a review and document where we are compliant with WCAG2, so we know what we need to do.
16:51:34 <ericeggert> action: Liam to improve the survey form.
16:52:48 <Michael> q+
16:52:49 <ericeggert> Shadi: Item no. 7 states requirements for that form.
16:54:11 <ericeggert> Shadi: Anybody wants to do those in-between pages?
16:54:44 <ericeggert> Tom: Thos icons may be links to the sections in the spec.
16:55:34 <ericeggert> Michael: I thought about some light boxes which show those specs in the document itself.
16:56:59 <ericeggert> Jan Sjoerd: Which pages shall that be exactly, before pages?
16:57:30 <ericeggert> Shadi: Yes, we can do that step by step and implement some of those ideas.
16:58:16 <ericeggert> action: Jan Sjoerd to explore the possibilities and implementation of those in-between pages.
16:59:10 <ericeggert> Sylvie: I will help in testing, I can't help technically.
17:00:02 <Zakim> -Liam
17:01:39 <ericeggert> Mike: I would clean up the CSS and implement some ideas of the WAI-AGE TF. Or add some javascript.
17:02:25 <ericeggert> action: Mike to implement some changes from the WAI-AGE TF into the pages.
17:02:54 <Michael> q+
17:04:21 <ericeggert> Michael: Someone should look if there are WCAG2 techniques to implement.
17:05:55 <ericeggert> Shadi: What about a second css?
17:06:00 <Michael> q+
17:06:08 <ericeggert> Tom: That could be a css for low vision…
17:06:41 <ericeggert> Shadi: We have to not make the impression that you need such a second css.
17:07:52 <ericeggert> Michael: I agree. We had that discussion before, it's probably better as a second step.
17:08:41 <ericeggert> action: Eric to look if fancy alternate stylesheets are possible.
17:08:56 <shadi> zakim, take up next
17:08:56 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, shadi
17:09:37 <ericeggert> Shadi: If there are any comments just mail to the list.
17:12:41 <Michael> sorry, have to leave now. nice to joining you in this task-force
17:12:56 <Zakim> -Michael
17:13:00 <ericeggert> Shadi: We will meet again on wednesday, 12th of november 5-6 o'clock CET.
17:13:16 <Zakim> -Sylvie_Duchateau
17:13:19 <Zakim> -Tom
17:13:23 <Zakim> -ericeggert
17:13:24 <Zakim> -Maik
17:13:30 <jspoorta> -Jan Sjoerd
17:13:30 <Zakim> -shadi
17:13:43 <shadi> zakim, drop jan
17:13:43 <Zakim> Jan is being disconnected
17:13:44 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG(BAD TF)12:00PM has ended
17:13:45 <Zakim> Attendees were +03130239aaaa, Michael, +1.714.968.aabb, +49.173.673.aacc, Sylvie_Duchateau, shadi, ericeggert, Jan, Tom, +49.201.750.0.aadd, Maik, Liam
17:13:57 <shadi> zakim, bye
17:13:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #badtf
17:14:03 <shadi> rrsgent, make logs world
17:14:14 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
17:14:18 <shadi> rrsagent, make minutes
17:14:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-minutes.html shadi
17:14:21 <shadi> rrsagent, make logs world
17:14:25 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
17:14:25 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-actions.rdf :
17:14:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael to provide mockups for the navigation through the Demo site [1]
17:14:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-irc#T16-49-19
17:14:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tom to do a review and document where we are compliant with WCAG2, so we know what we need to do. [2]
17:14:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-irc#T16-50-29
17:14:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Liam to improve the survey form. [3]
17:14:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-irc#T16-51-34
17:14:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jan Sjoerd to explore the possibilities and implementation of those in-between pages. [4]
17:14:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-irc#T16-58-16
17:14:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Mike to implement some changes from the WAI-AGE TF into the pages. [5]
17:14:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-irc#T17-02-25
17:14:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Eric to look if fancy alternate stylesheets are possible. [6]
17:14:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/28-badtf-irc#T17-08-41