IRC log of xhtml on 2008-10-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:05:34 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:05:35 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has now started
07:05:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:05:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
07:05:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see IA_XHTML2()3:00AM already started
07:05:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
07:05:39 [trackbot]
Date: 24 October 2008
07:05:42 [Zakim]
07:05:58 [Steven]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Day 2
07:06:06 [Steven]
Chair: Roland
07:06:17 [Steven]
zakim, dial executive_3
07:06:17 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
07:06:19 [Zakim]
07:06:48 [ShaneM]
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07:07:10 [Roland_]
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07:15:28 [myakura]
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07:15:35 [oeddie]
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07:16:26 [oeddie]
TOPIC: XML Events 2
07:16:31 [oeddie]
RM: did you make changes?
07:16:32 [oeddie]
SM: did
07:16:39 [oeddie]
RM: in draft dated 20th
07:16:41 [oeddie]
SM: yes
07:16:54 [oeddie]
RM: wen through list and made some changes
07:17:03 [Steven]
07:17:04 [oeddie]
RM: eventtarget name of changed attribute
07:17:15 [oeddie]
RM: main piece
07:18:20 [oedipus_laptop]
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07:18:43 [Steven]
07:18:54 [Steven]
Forms discussion on XML Events 2
07:18:58 [oedipus_laptop]
SM: added @eventtarget
07:19:08 [oedipus_laptop]
RM: for listeners
07:19:11 [oedipus_laptop]
SM: in general
07:19:36 [oedipus_laptop]
SM: thought 2 attribute names i changed
07:19:40 [oedipus_laptop]
RM: other in handler section
07:19:43 [Roland_]
07:19:43 [Steven]
07:19:48 [Steven]
XML Events 2 Draft
07:20:34 [oedipus]
SM: issue remaining: when are events registered?
07:20:40 [oedipus]
RM: had an action on that
07:20:56 [oedipus]
RM: when document loaded would be registered and loaded into DOM at that point in time
07:21:03 [oedipus]
SP: happen before load events?
07:21:10 [oedipus]
RM: could be tricky
07:21:33 [oedipus]
SM: reason have to be registered before onLoadEvent fires
07:22:07 [oedipus]
SP: onLoadEvent may know stuff necessary for document which seems to mean that would have to refire onLoad
07:22:19 [oedipus]
RM: or protect those looking to load and trigger that way
07:22:36 [oedipus]
SP: script run when found
07:22:41 [oedipus]
RM: so could be before
07:22:43 [ShaneM]
typically you do something like addEvent("load", functionRef) ;
07:23:05 [oedipus]
SP: script would get run before onLoad
07:23:31 [oedipus]
SP: would't the code implementing XML Events 2 need to wait for onLoad itself in order to initialize
07:23:36 [oedipus]
SM: no, not if run inline
07:23:49 [oedipus]
SP: has to run up and down tree to register all listener events
07:24:01 [oedipus]
SP: onLoad, but things depend upon it
07:24:12 [oedipus]
SP: maybe that is its own bootstrap problem
07:24:29 [oedipus]
RM: if go in through javascript and listen with javascript wouldn't be any different
07:24:58 [oedipus]
RM: listener in script for onLoadEvent would have problem after
07:25:24 [oedipus]
RM: no different from anyone running script using ListenerOnLoad from script interface
07:26:12 [oedipus]
SM: 2 diff problems: 1) what to say about handlers module and when registered; 2) if implement to work in existing UAs, how would ensure outcome of issue 1 supported
07:26:23 [oedipus]
SM: not sure let decisions about current UAs color the answer
07:26:34 [oedipus]
SM: should say registered prior to onLoadFire
07:26:38 [oedipus]
SP: yeah
07:26:46 [oedipus]
RM: yeah but how to achieve?
07:27:04 [oedipus]
Nick: can do onLoad then trigger all events waiting for onLoad -- order not defined
07:27:14 [oedipus]
SP: could use root elements
07:28:02 [oedipus]
SP: script implemented can do capture onLoad, initialize, then reinitialize onLoad
07:28:14 [oedipus]
SM: implementation must behave as if...
07:28:16 [oedipus]
RM: yes
07:28:18 [oedipus]
SP: yes
07:28:31 [oedipus]
RM: such that handlers may listen for onLoad event
07:28:39 [oedipus]
SM: can't decide where need to say
07:28:50 [oedipus]
SM: in addEventListener description?
07:28:54 [oedipus]
SM: yes
07:28:57 [oedipus]
RM: makes sense
07:29:15 [oedipus]
SM: reason for confusion is MarkB says that this also wasn't clear from XML Events 1 spec -
07:29:24 [oedipus]
SP: not place to do it -- that's an action
07:29:39 [oedipus]
SP: place to talk about it is in the description of handler attribute
07:30:34 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:30:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
07:31:05 [oedipus]
SP: i think should be under handler attribute
07:31:14 [oedipus]
RM: defined on listener element - optional attribute?
07:31:17 [oedipus]
SP: yes
07:31:26 [oedipus]
SP: (reads from spec)
07:31:53 [oedipus]
SP: could do in separate location: whenever handler attached explicitly with handler attribute or implicitly
07:32:13 [oedipus]
RM: problem saying that - what happens when try to add handler after - brining script into DOM
07:32:29 [oedipus]
RM: 2 sides: 1) those that are declared in original document will be done before load
07:32:43 [oedipus]
SP: discussed before and said that can't do that
07:32:50 [oedipus]
RM: should ignore that situation
07:33:12 [oedipus]
SP: little point in changing handler attribute via script - if want that effect, can use script already
07:33:32 [oedipus]
RM: if put widget in DIV, need assertion -- can't bring in declarative approach to do that
07:33:51 [oedipus]
SM: any DOM mutation event should cause the implementation to reexamine tree to ensure all handlers are registered
07:33:59 [oedipus]
SP: are you REALLY sure we want that
07:34:20 [oedipus]
SM: alternative is build page using AJAX -- if want to work, has to work there too
07:34:32 [guest]
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07:34:55 [oedipus]
SP: not sure -- whole point of this markup was to do declaratively so didn't have to use script; if going to use script, use script's function, not declarative markup
07:35:07 [oedipus]
RM: may not know if embedded at start-up time or post load
07:35:13 [oedipus]
SM: that's my concern too
07:35:43 [oedipus]
SM: don't disagree with SP, but don't know how to accomodate those creating dynamic pages -- added after onLoadEvent fires
07:36:09 [oedipus]
RM: could say or provide function to do it - if do insert after mnode, have to do something to reparse and register these items
07:36:21 [oedipus]
RM: responsibility, not dogma
07:36:28 [oedipus]
SM: address in document conformance?
07:36:32 [oedipus]
SM: or just advice
07:36:40 [oedipus]
SM: more than advice -- have to do it
07:37:26 [oedipus]
RM: have to cause script to get executed in some way to get activated
07:37:54 [oedipus]
SM: popular AJAX libraries do it by setting flag for javascripting process
07:37:59 [oedipus]
RM: need something similar here
07:38:03 [oedipus]
SM: where in doc?
07:38:14 [oedipus]
RM: processing model, isn't it?
07:38:41 [oedipus]
RM: make topic in subsection 3 - subject of how to cause listeners to be registered
07:38:46 [oedipus]
SM: 3.6?
07:38:54 [oedipus]
SM: after event scope
07:38:55 [oedipus]
RM: yep
07:39:43 [oedipus]
regrets+ Tina, MarkB, Alessio
07:39:58 [oedipus]
SM: don't need to do in real time - will edit and we can revisit
07:40:16 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Handlers Module
07:40:36 [oedipus]
RM: changed to make eventtarget
07:40:51 [oedipus]
SM: other is EventType
07:41:43 [oedipus]
RM: other thing that makes sense in this section now -- had scripting module, but also discussion if want handler and a script - this script is a "traditional" script inside handler module
07:42:06 [oedipus]
scribeNick+ oeddie
07:42:17 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:42:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
07:42:19 [oedipus]
SM: script element that would say "here are my handlers"
07:42:26 [oedipus]
RM: script that is only a function
07:43:00 [oedipus]
RM: add script for all reasons have today
07:43:15 [alessio]
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07:43:29 [oedipus]
SM: reluctant to loose section 5 - no home other than XHTML2 today
07:43:54 [oedipus]
RM: keep in there; will review MarkB's issues with Mark - question: define handler or function - function takes to script handler to handler
07:44:06 [alessio]
hi all, I don't have Skype here... can I follow you via IRC?
07:44:07 [oedipus]
RM: reviewing minutes and email from july
07:44:27 [oedipus]
of, course, you are welcome in any way you can participate
07:44:37 [oedipus]
present+ Alessio_on_IRC
07:44:43 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:44:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
07:44:55 [alessio]
07:44:57 [Steven]
i/Date: 24 October 2008/scribenick: oeddie
07:45:02 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:45:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
07:45:42 [oedipus]
i/SM: added @eventtarget/ScribeNick: oedipus_laptop
07:45:46 [oedipus]
rrsagent,make minutes
07:45:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
07:45:54 [oedipus]
RM: shane also included in dialog
07:46:08 [Roland_]
07:46:35 [oedipus]
i/SM: issue remaining/ScribeNick: oedipus
07:46:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:46:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
07:47:28 [oedipus]
regrets- Alessio
07:47:37 [Steven]
07:48:02 [oedipus]
SM: handler element included in handler module, right?
07:48:02 [oedipus]
RM: yes
07:48:17 [nick]
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07:48:18 [oedipus]
SP: where is handler element now?
07:48:22 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't exist
07:48:29 [oedipus]
RM: trying to move from script
07:48:49 [oedipus]
SM: load external things - has @src
07:49:14 [oedipus]
SP: handler element versus action element
07:49:32 [oedipus]
SM: if action element had @src could fulfil function
07:49:37 [oedipus]
RM: leave resources tight
07:50:01 [oedipus]
present+ Roland, Steven, Shane, Gregory, Nick
07:50:29 [oedipus]
SM: don't want to overload action -- just use handler -- make simpler - doesn't cost anything to have in content model
07:50:39 [oedipus]
RM: inside action, put handler
07:50:43 [Steven]
Present+Raman, Uli
07:50:49 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:50:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
07:50:58 [oedipus]
RM: handler can be child of action
07:51:01 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't have to be
07:51:11 [oedipus]
RM: but valid cases where one might want to
07:52:08 [oedipus]
RM: other change: option of either specifying want handler to run or function to run; where specify handler and where function?
07:52:25 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:52:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
07:52:47 [oedipus]
SM: Roland, do you want @implements on handler element?
07:53:11 [oedipus]
GJR: can "see" argument for it, perhaps in case of expert handlers
07:53:24 [oedipus]
RM: trying to think of a reason to say no -- seems might confuse things
07:54:16 [oedipus]
RM: depends upon script - script in 2 diff modules - events module, handlers moule, and script module
07:54:33 [oedipus]
RM: just section in XHTML2 -- need script out of events module document altogether
07:55:00 [oedipus]
SM: case for retention: XML module, not XHTML module; beyond XHTML; like to expose script element to world beyond XML
07:55:31 [oedipus]
RM: agree with that statement; bit we need to work on is what script element says -- XML2 script element different in terms of coding, etc.
07:55:41 [oedipus]
SM: not really different - tried to normalize
07:56:03 [oedipus]
RM: when i looked were definitely differences between Base and Events
07:57:00 [oedipus]
RM: let's finish of the other piece: option to specify handler (ID) or function
07:57:12 [oedipus]
SM: suggesting that be global attribute?
07:57:24 [oedipus]
RM: wherever can specify handler, can specify function
07:57:27 [oedipus]
SM: yes
07:57:53 [unl]
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07:58:06 [oedipus]
SM: we need to keep in mind that everytime add global attribute, polluting global namespace more
07:58:13 [oedipus]
RM: under handler as IDREF?
07:58:18 [oedipus]
SM: now a URI
07:58:28 [oedipus]
SP: lost use case -- what trying to achieve
07:58:44 [oedipus]
RM: either a handler or script library with all functions
07:58:58 [oedipus]
RM: get functions from script
07:59:58 [Steven]
<a href=..><action ev:event="DomActivate">foobar()</action>Click here</a>
08:00:37 [oedipus]
RM: suggesting that could be name of function
08:00:52 [oedipus]
RM: how if going to attach to handler
08:00:59 [oedipus]
SP: action element is a handler
08:01:03 [oedipus]
SP: used default
08:01:12 [Steven]
<action id="foo">foobar()</action>
08:01:41 [Steven]
<a ev:event="DomActivate" handler="foo"" href=...>Click here</a>
08:01:54 [Steven]
08:01:59 [Roland_]
< listener event="DOMActivate" observer="button1" handler="#doit" / >
08:02:32 [oedipus]
RM: instead of handler, have to create actionable which has to call function - can't refer to handler from function
08:02:51 [oedipus]
SM: like elegance of SP's solution, but entire module has no inline CDATA
08:02:55 [oedipus]
SP: even action?
08:02:58 [oedipus]
SM: even action
08:03:06 [oedipus]
SP: replae with script element
08:03:15 [oedipus]
08:03:20 [oedipus]
SM: don't know if will work
08:03:23 [Steven]
08:03:33 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:03:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
08:03:51 [Steven]
instead of action above
08:03:55 [Steven]
couldn't I say
08:04:01 [oedipus]
SP: instead of action above, couldn't i say:
08:04:22 [Steven]
<script declare="declare" if="foo">foobar()</script>
08:04:32 [Steven]
08:05:36 [oedipus]
SP: question is: how much / often the work that handler does is single function -- this is convenience, not functionality - author convenience to call function
08:06:02 [oedipus]
RM: interpretation will be different depending upon culture coming from
08:06:19 [oedipus]
TV: what gets loaded and fired; ???? ouldn't hear reast
08:07:00 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:07:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
08:07:17 [oedipus]
TV: data model
08:07:42 [oedipus]
RM: earlier example in spec: listener > DOMActivate > doit function in script what put there?
08:07:44 [alessio]
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08:08:06 [oedipus]
RM: if have script function called doit, would have to create intermediary - that would be handler?
08:08:12 [oedipus]
SP: or script
08:08:28 [oedipus]
SM: all done is add layer of abstraction; still can't get to single function
08:08:35 [oedipus]
SP: in my script core is that single function
08:08:40 [oedipus]
RM: wouldn't execute, though
08:08:59 [oedipus]
SP: would handler=#foo content of scrpt gets executed
08:09:05 [oedipus]
RM: what would happen today
08:09:10 [oedipus]
SP: declare
08:09:14 [oedipus]
SM: no such element
08:09:38 [ShaneM]
defer [CI] When set, this boolean attribute provides a hint to the user agent that the script is not going to generate any document content (e.g., no "document.write" in javascript) and thus, the user agent can continue parsing and rendering.
08:09:39 [oedipus]
SM: is attribute "defer" - hints that not going to do DocumentWrite()
08:10:00 [oedipus]
SM: have @declare on action element
08:10:04 [oedipus]
SP: not sure why
08:10:53 [oedipus]
TV: no way to tell UA not to execute piece of script;
08:11:14 [oedipus]
RM: what led to suggestion of adding function
08:11:50 [oedipus]
RM: still have way of action invoke function
08:12:05 [oedipus]
RM: actionhas function equals -- then no need of another parameter
08:12:17 [oedipus]
TV: will some of these things have effect on ????
08:13:25 [oedipus]
TV: 2 - one depends on function that came from ????
08:15:31 [oedipus]
TV: respect to javascript node - if script tag has src that gets loaded - trick to make load is do Document.Create element; do things need to block or can execution/loading of document continue
08:16:03 [oedipus]
TV: all happen after onLoadEvents fire; if have 2 blocks 1 dependent upon quote from first block, have to find these and define behavior carefully
08:16:10 [oedipus]
SM: makes perfect sense
08:16:49 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
08:16:49 [RRSAgent]
08:17:27 [oedipus]
SM: discussing handler element - decided to introduce; then discussed if needed function attribute as part of global attribute set; now keep handler and that handler can invoke function
08:17:43 [oedipus]
SM: separate modules - XML Events does not require XML Handlers
08:17:52 [oedipus]
TV: would like to keep separate if possible
08:17:56 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
08:17:58 [oedipus]
SM: +1
08:18:11 [oedipus]
SM: no way to use listener that ties to a function
08:18:27 [oedipus]
RM: handler is always a function could be specified in a language
08:19:13 [oedipus]
TV: other way to fix - declare one of things in XML Events to be a handler (such as the handler) - handler spec can elaborate on that; XML Events client that doesn't support handler can use module
08:19:25 [oedipus]
RM: handler goes to events goes to listener
08:19:54 [oedipus]
SM: another option: @handler doesn't get included into global space unless use events as well
08:20:10 [oedipus]
TV: handler in handler module
08:20:17 [oedipus]
GJR: like way headed
08:20:33 [oedipus]
RM: need to work out specifics - still question - handler attribute to invoke a script
08:20:46 [oedipus]
s/invoke a script/invoke a script function
08:21:00 [oedipus]
SM: also backwards compat - events 1
08:21:15 [oedipus]
SM: happy to define handler element in context of Event Module
08:21:53 [oedipus]
SP: in Events 1 did diliberately to try and get others to adopt XML Events
08:22:19 [oedipus]
TV: Charlie, is there a voice group position on this?
08:22:56 [oedipus]
SP: other groups think our events are special; almost always turns out that they have relevance or something close to it in XForms terms where events don't fire handlers on parts of tree that are irrelevant
08:23:05 [oedipus]
TV: event filtering
08:23:32 [oedipus]
SP: interesting; no other spec talks about relavance like that, amybe ought to put into spec; SMIL good example
08:23:55 [oedipus]
TV: also gets by argument that need to implement a lot of what i don't need to get what i do need
08:24:19 [oedipus]
SP: 2 implements: how do you deal with relavance specially
08:24:30 [oedipus]
SP: how stop events firing on tree where shouldn't
08:24:38 [oedipus]
Charlie: handlers decide what to do
08:25:24 [oedipus]
SP: switch that contains element bound to something that changes, but switch not told; strictly speaking, events so go to that thing and bubble up tree, but currently doesn't
08:25:31 [oedipus]
Uli: in Shiva does
08:25:42 [oedipus]
TV: no one should notice bubble on client side
08:26:10 [oedipus]
TV: about 5 years ago had a partial implementation
08:26:31 [oedipus]
SP: how change XML Events to handle idea that parts of tree are no longer relevant
08:27:01 [oedipus]
TV: event list in XML: can say to handler, fire event under certain criterion -- i am done, don't do anymore
08:27:39 [oedipus]
TV: could could use XML handler to do conditionality -- if x is true through attributes, then relevant, otherwise, not
08:28:15 [oedipus]
TV: target phase, bubble phase or capture phase all should respect conditionality of XML handler
08:28:30 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:28:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
08:29:15 [oedipus]
RM: conclusion / agreement
08:29:40 [unl]
08:30:05 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: take handler out, put into Events Module, ability to invoke script function will be added to handler
08:30:21 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
08:30:25 [ShaneM]
08:30:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:30:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
08:31:38 [oedipus]
08:31:43 [Zakim]
08:31:53 [Zakim]
08:35:23 [alessio]
08:41:51 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:41:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
08:42:56 [oedipus]
08:42:59 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:42:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
08:43:46 [oedipus]
present- Alessio_on_IRC
08:44:06 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:44:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
09:00:24 [oedipus]
i/see also/Previous:
09:00:29 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:00:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
09:03:40 [nick]
nick has joined #xhtml
09:04:05 [nick]
zakim, who is on the phone?
09:04:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Executive_3
09:04:15 [ShaneM]
09:05:06 [Zakim]
09:05:10 [Roland_]
Roland_ has joined #xhtml
09:05:28 [Zakim]
09:06:10 [ShaneM]
listener says handler="#foo"
09:06:24 [ShaneM]
<handler src="whatever" />
09:06:59 [ShaneM]
<handler src="whatever#someActionElement" />
09:07:16 [Steven]
Steven has joined #xhtml
09:07:19 [Roland_]
< handler function="whatever()" / >
09:07:33 [oedipus]
GJR: like function better
09:07:36 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
09:07:36 [RRSAgent]
09:07:47 [ShaneM]
<handler src="whatever.js" type="application/javascript" function="whatever" />
09:08:21 [Steven]
09:08:30 [oedipus]
09:09:46 [oedipus]
SM: trying to understand what means; using examnple above, the symptom is going to do what? load the resource at whatever, find the fragment identified by #someActionElement -- doesn't make sens
09:09:58 [Roland_]
<handler src="whatever#someActionElement" />
09:10:23 [ShaneM]
<handler id="myhandler" src="whatever.js" type="application/javascript" function="whatever" />
09:10:29 [oedipus]
SP: not sure about that
09:10:32 [Roland_]
<handler id="foo" src="whatever#someActionElement" />
09:10:37 [oedipus]
SM: this is case trying to solve, right?
09:10:39 [oedipus]
SP: yes
09:10:58 [oedipus]
SM: guess i'm fine with that - would be as easy to put function on listener and be done with it
09:11:29 [oedipus]
SM: handler module describes action element and way to declaratively define handlers
09:12:01 [ShaneM]
<handler id="myhandler" src="#someActionElement" />
09:12:02 [oedipus]
RM: doesn't explain in XML Events 1
09:12:17 [oedipus]
SM: has to be embedded?
09:13:12 [oedipus]
SP: easy to put function on listener, so what is problem
09:13:37 [oedipus]
RM: do we want another global attribute -- wherever a handlers attribute there would be a function
09:13:51 [oedipus]
SM: hoping to come up with clever way to overload handler
09:13:52 [ShaneM]
09:14:03 [oedipus]
RM: one is fragment identifier - URI or function name
09:14:27 [oedipus]
SM: that would work today, for what it is worth
09:14:54 [oedipus]
RM: wouldn't have to put javascript, name of function
09:14:59 [oedipus]
09:15:06 [oedipus]
RM: function: would also be URI
09:15:18 [oedipus]
SP: then have to go to IETF
09:15:29 [oedipus]
SM: not a formal javascript
09:15:33 [oedipus]
SP: convention
09:15:49 [Steven]
09:15:49 [oedipus]
SM: used for href="javascript..."
09:16:25 [oedipus]
SP: tried to register schemes widely used and not registered anywhere -- ran out of time or cycles
09:16:52 [oedipus]
RM: function name with brackets
09:16:55 [Steven]
s/tried/Bjoern Hoermann/
09:17:14 [Roland_]
09:17:24 [Steven]
s/mann/mann tried/
09:17:47 [Steven]
09:18:08 [oedipus]
RM: why not use
09:18:20 [oedipus]
SM: TAG would have heart-attack
09:18:59 [oedipus]
SP: get through LC and put in example
09:19:08 [Steven]
09:19:14 [oedipus]
SP: Shane, your example is very clever - would never have come up with that
09:19:29 [oedipus]
RM: someone might take this scheme trhough for all we know
09:19:58 [oedipus]
SM: what happens with such a function: get past event context or part of global javascript feed
09:20:03 [oedipus]
RM: as per SP's example
09:20:17 [oedipus]
SP: what has TAG against it -- that not registered?
09:20:37 [oedipus]
SM: TAG doesn't like registering new schemes - want to use HTTP
09:21:23 [oedipus]
SM: WebAPI group defining widget spec - so could register in DIV - TAG said no; external group (OASIS) tried to register XIT to IETF, failed
09:21:47 [ShaneM]
Would this work? foo.js@functionName ?
09:21:55 [ShaneM]
09:22:02 [oedipus]
SP: TAG objects to schemes which are just HTTP in disguise - apple has one, and just use it
09:22:12 [oedipus]
SP: replace scheme with http still works
09:22:34 [oedipus]
SM: within iPhone architecture itself - when install app, can register scheme
09:23:01 [oedipus]
09:23:38 [oedipus]
SP: as handler you know # defined by media type - application/javascript
09:24:08 [oedipus]
SP: then need to look there to find out if can use fragments
09:24:10 [Steven]
09:24:54 [oedipus]
Scripting Media Types
09:25:13 [oedipus]
SM: could put function attribute on it and be done with it
09:25:19 [oedipus]
RM: go back to what trying to achieve
09:25:57 [oedipus]
SM: 99% of today's use cases, @function would satisfy; could put in note that can do with handler at some time in future, but probably want to stay away from that
09:26:08 [oedipus]
SP: safest route is another attribute
09:26:13 [oedipus]
SM: clearest for constituents
09:26:17 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
09:26:20 [oedipus]
RM: sounds good to me
09:26:37 [oedipus]
SM: having said all that, do we still need handler element?
09:26:42 [oedipus]
SP: don't think so
09:26:52 [oedipus]
SM: MarkB thinks so -- he introduced this thread
09:27:08 [oedipus]
SP: would have to ask Mark
09:27:42 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:27:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
09:28:01 [oedipus]
SM: does anyone believe that any scripting language used other than javascript?
09:28:24 [ShaneM]
Is this adequate? <dt id="attr-listener-function">function</dt>
09:28:24 [ShaneM]
<dd>The <code>function</code> attribute identifies an optional
09:28:24 [ShaneM]
function name that will be called when the handler is invoked by
09:28:24 [ShaneM]
an event listener.</dd>
09:28:35 [oedipus]
SP: think that in 15 years time, maybe - wrong to make assumption that will always predominate
09:29:14 [oedipus]
SP: not sure if need handler and function simultaneously
09:29:38 [oedipus]
SM: function called when the event reaches observer
09:29:43 [oedipus]
SP: yes
09:30:09 [oedipus]
SM: think have to say specify either a handler or a function attribute, and if specify both @function takes precedence
09:30:13 [oedipus]
RM: sounds good to me
09:30:16 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
09:30:34 [alessio]
for me too... +1
09:30:35 [oedipus]
RM: function doesn't require javascript - can use other function libraries/languages
09:31:09 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: specify either a handler or a function attribute; if specify both @function takes precedence
09:31:26 [oedipus]
SM: have abstraction built-into spec, don't know if will ever be used
09:31:36 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:31:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
09:32:14 [Roland_]
Regrets+ alessio
09:32:48 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Script Module
09:33:04 [Steven]
s/Regrets+ alessio//
09:33:04 [oedipus]
RM: same as in XML Events only with @function added
09:34:17 [oedipus]
SM: so XML Script Element
09:34:39 [oedipus]
RM: why would it not be XHTML 1.1 or 1.2 Script Element + Implements?
09:35:53 [oedipus]
SM: modules designed to move cleanly into XHTML2; in XHTML2 have broader understanding of i18n; don't care if do differently in Script Module, but going to have to change when move to XHTML2
09:35:55 [Steven]
s/of nothing/no problem/
09:35:59 [ShaneM]
09:36:02 [oedipus]
SM: can do now or later
09:36:22 [oedipus]
SM: HTML4.01 script that we care about
09:36:29 [alessio]
thx steven
09:36:33 [Steven]
09:36:51 [oedipus]
SM: @type in HTML4 is much diff than @type in XHTML2
09:37:03 [oedipus]
SM: didn't put defer in here, but could
09:37:24 [oedipus]
SM: is what we are trying to accomplish is that this script looks like HTML 4.01 script + implements
09:37:33 [oedipus]
RM: yes, so can implment in existing browsers
09:37:49 [oedipus]
SM: if that is case, we shouldn't have complex def of @type in here
09:38:19 [oedipus]
SM: Steven, XML Events 2 right now uses definitions from XHTML2
09:38:40 [oedipus]
SP: XHTML2 has extended version of @type, but if another app going to use XML Events may not want that def of @type
09:39:04 [oedipus]
SP: no objection to XML Events 2 having simpler @type as long as doesn't ruin generic @type in XHTML2
09:39:15 [oedipus]
SP: M12n allows us to extend an attribute, right
09:39:16 [oedipus]
SM: sure
09:39:55 [oedipus]
SM: if agree to change, will rip out complex content-type lang and replace with stuff from HTML4.01
09:40:17 [oedipus]
RM: @id element?
09:40:41 [oedipus]
SM: everything has @id in XHTML
09:40:46 [oedipus]
RM: id or xml:id
09:41:04 [oedipus]
SM: interesting discussion we should have
09:41:37 [oedipus]
SM: if goal is this is used generically in XML languages, would make sense to remove @id from this spec, which is used in context of other host languages
09:41:40 [oedipus]
RM: agree
09:42:49 [oedipus]
SP: everyone uses @id -- allow people to use other attributes -- don't want to replicate problem with XFOrms where assumed that host language would define @id, in the end had to put it back in
09:44:03 [oedipus]
RM: would be legitimate - don't have to use javascript if have @function
09:44:21 [oedipus]
RM: do we know what we are doing with script
09:44:33 [oedipus]
SM: believe so -- trying to find definition of @id
09:45:02 [alessio]
id could be still useful as immediate "pointer" for an element
09:45:36 [alessio]
09:45:45 [oedipus]
SM: plan with document?
09:45:54 [oedipus]
RM: go through changes, review and take to LC
09:46:27 [oedipus]
09:47:24 [oedipus]
SM: think inherited from HTML 4.01
09:47:32 [oedipus]
RM: add to XHTML 1.2?
09:47:34 [oedipus]
SM: no
09:47:41 [oedipus]
09:48:38 [oedipus]
SP: text def of id is attribute that assigns an identifier to element
09:49:07 [oedipus]
SM: taking high-level details
09:49:12 [ShaneM]
<dd>The optional id attribute assigns an identifier to an element. The value of this attribute must be unique within a document. This attribute MUST NOT be specified on an element in conjunction with the xml:id attribute.</dd>
09:49:43 [Roland_]
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09:49:46 [oedipus]
SM: makes sens to mention xml:id here in regards scripting
09:49:57 [oedipus]
SM: coding versus charset - what do we want to do?
09:50:06 [oedipus]
RM: XHTML 1.0 says what?
09:50:24 [oedipus]
SM: changed for XHTML2 in response to comment from i18n
09:50:31 [oedipus]
SP: could leave in encoding
09:50:36 [oedipus]
SP: encoding only for the source
09:51:01 [oedipus]
SM: wants to map cleanly to script in HTML 4.01
09:51:05 [Steven]
s/source/src attribute/
09:51:38 [oedipus]
SP: 2 options: leave; include both to allow for future developments; or just add in XHTML2
09:51:57 [oedipus]
RM: add in XHTML2 and deprecate old one
09:52:22 [oedipus]
SM: put in note: "in future version of module expect to change base encoding..."
09:52:36 [oedipus]
RM: don't know what value that adds other than to melt minds
09:52:42 [oedipus]
SM: ok
09:53:20 [oedipus]
SM: now have: @src, @type, @implement - do we need @defer? think has no semantics and should skip
09:53:41 [Steven]
09:53:45 [oedipus]
RM: if have no use for it, leave it out
09:53:53 [oedipus]
RM: is in XHTML 1.0?
09:53:59 [oedipus]
SP: everything in 1.0
09:54:04 [oedipus]
RM: XHTML 1.1?
09:54:07 [alessio]
@SM I agree
09:54:27 [oedipus]
SM: in 1.1
09:54:44 [oedipus]
RM: same as 1.1 with addition of @implements - XHTML2 script element
09:55:00 [oedipus]
09:55:31 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: remove @defer from script element
09:55:39 [oedipus]
RM: finished topic?
09:55:50 [oedipus]
SM: think so
09:56:52 [oedipus]
s/remove @defer from script element/keep everything from HTML 4.01 definition of script
09:56:54 [Roland_]
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09:56:57 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:56:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
09:56:58 [nic1]
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09:58:04 [oedipus]
s/keep everything from HTML 4.01 definition of script/keep everything from XHTML 1.0 definition of script
09:58:07 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:58:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
09:58:53 [oedipus]
RM: topic haven't addressed: now that have M12n as Rec need to update other specs - can we discuss after lunch -- fallout from getting M12n to Rec
09:59:07 [oedipus]
SM: pretty sure in all in mail
09:59:20 [Steven]
i/RM: topic haven't addressed/Topic: Fallout of M12N 1.1
09:59:24 [Roland_]
Now that XHTML M12N 1.1 is a REC, we need to update our other specs.
09:59:24 [Roland_]
There are new versions in shape for PER that include the schema
09:59:24 [Roland_]
implementations. They include XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic 1.1, XHTML Print
09:59:24 [Roland_]
1.0, and RDFa Syntax 1.0. We should decide a strategy for moving these
09:59:24 [Roland_]
09:59:28 [oedipus]
i/RM: topic haven't/TOPIC: Fallout of M12n
09:59:52 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:59:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
10:00:12 [oedipus]
SP: Basic, Print, and RDFa
10:00:35 [oedipus]
RM: 1.1 Second Edition
10:00:40 [oedipus]
SM: will all be second edition
10:01:06 [oedipus]
RM: 1.1 SE has been waiting for M12n for quite a while
10:01:14 [oedipus]
RM: strategy?
10:01:22 [oedipus]
SP: add reference and shove out there
10:01:32 [oedipus]
SM: updated all drafts as SE and are all ready to go
10:01:37 [oedipus]
SP: way to go Shane!
10:01:46 [oedipus]
SM: think these are PERs per W3C process
10:01:49 [oedipus]
SP: that's right
10:02:07 [oedipus]
SM: can't imagine any real contention or difficulty in moving forward;
10:02:24 [oedipus]
SM: check errata to ensure all addressed;
10:03:41 [oedipus]
SM: RDFa synax odd man out; asked melinda to ask XHTML Print comminity for errata; Print, Basic and XHTML 1.1 we can submit as single submission: same style of change, etc.
10:04:01 [oedipus]
RM: seems reasonable: M12n is underpinning
10:04:23 [oedipus]
RM: Basic so new, don't think there is errata for that yet
10:04:56 [oedipus]
RM: www-html-editor where to find errata?
10:04:58 [oedipus]
SM: yep
10:05:06 [oedipus]
RM: fun for the whole family...
10:05:52 [oedipus]
SM: RDFa Syntax unusual - produced in conjunction with another group in Task Force - up to TF to decide to take to PER?
10:06:07 [oedipus]
SM: my guess is ben will want to do a stability check on it first
10:06:37 [myakura]
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10:10:01 [oedipus]
SM: W3C process questions for SP: Basic, Print, and XHTML 1.1
10:10:14 [oedipus]
SP: if errata, work in, add schemas and then submit
10:10:22 [oedipus]
SM: submit all in one transition call
10:10:28 [oedipus]
SP: best approach
10:10:59 [oedipus]
SM: concerned about tracking errata -- need to do a sweep of www-html-editor for the last 5 years
10:11:36 [oedipus]
SP: can garuntee that when producing agenda that everytime something new on html-editor, i put on agenda, so i think only need to do a year's trawling/trolling
10:11:48 [oedipus]
SM: never added anything to an errata docmument ever
10:12:11 [oedipus]
SM: troll agenda to find issues identified; just need to ensure resulted in decision
10:12:42 [oedipus]
SM: according to melinda 2 typos which i fixed
10:13:04 [oedipus]
SM: print went to rec in September 2006
10:14:05 [oedipus]
SP: comment on fieldset sub-elements; Shane and Melinda replied
10:15:02 [oedipus]
SP: fieldset asked and disposed - no other comments on Print
10:15:39 [oedipus]
RM: looking for mentions of XHTML 1.1 in html-editor
10:15:44 [oedipus]
RM: flattened DTD
10:16:00 [oedipus]
RM: talking about second edition flattened DTD so that's ok
10:16:24 [oedipus]
RM: most recent one - replied
10:16:55 [oedipus]
SM: if any stuff need to update, should do it; technically, if stuff in errata doc, should be reflected, but errata docs empty
10:20:13 [oedipus]
SM: all indications are that there aren't any dangling erratas
10:20:31 [Steven]
10:20:39 [oedipus]
SP: isn't mayakura our Basic rep -- he is here now, so let's ask him
10:20:44 [Steven]
10:20:59 [Steven]
10:21:06 [oedipus]
10:22:27 [myakura]
10:24:16 [ShaneM]
are you aware of any errata or comments against XHTML Basic 1.1 as of yet?
10:25:32 [myakura]
ShaneM: not really.
10:25:34 [oedipus]
RM: need to work through these items - when to submit
10:25:42 [oedipus]
SP: shouldn't be too much process work
10:26:00 [myakura]
doesn't think i'm the rep for Basic though...
10:26:01 [oedipus]
SM: want to verify schema implementation works (by someone other than me)
10:26:13 [oedipus]
RM: worth talking with validator guys
10:26:24 [oedipus]
SM: if had schema validation, would e
10:26:32 [oedipus]
s/would e/would be
10:27:58 [oedipus]
myakura just told me he is unaware of any errors
10:28:04 [ShaneM]
XML Events 2 updated at
10:28:04 [Steven]
10:28:31 [ShaneM]
myakura: oh - sorry. Someone indicated you might know about it. We will ping Yam. Thanks!
10:28:48 [myakura]
no probs :)
10:29:17 [oedipus]
SM: not obvious how to use XSV
10:29:26 [oedipus]
SP: bad user interface
10:29:43 [oedipus]
SM: was able to use to validate schema along with oxygen and other tools
10:30:01 [oedipus]
SM: reasonably confident, but until use schema in anger, won't know if work
10:30:32 [oedipus]
SP: could provide interface -- validate your doc against any of these schemas - XHTML validator
10:30:39 [oedipus]
SM: not a bad idea
10:31:58 [oedipus]
SM: need to resolve to move to PER as soon as possible
10:32:41 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: take Basic 1.1, Print 1.1, XHTML 1.1 to PER as soon as errata check finished
10:33:03 [oedipus]
SP: will email RDFa task force about monvement on that front
10:33:10 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:33:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
10:33:29 [ShaneM]
updated draft with schema of RDFa Syntax is at
10:34:06 [oedipus]
10:34:19 [Zakim]
10:35:39 [Zakim]
10:36:21 [Zakim]
10:36:22 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has ended
10:36:23 [Zakim]
Attendees were oedipus, Executive_3, ShaneM
10:36:49 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Back at 11:3O utc
10:39:12 [oedipus]
[fyi] Using ARIA Live Regions to Make Twitter Tweet:
11:10:14 [oeddie]
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11:27:16 [Zakim]
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11:29:23 [oedipus]
aloha, alessio -- i have a question for you (and possibly diego and roberto) about iframe - i haven't finished the emessage yet, but i think i did point you to
11:36:57 [oedipus]
problem is, there aren't any com ports anymore for hardware TTS, and the newer screen readers don't support hardware TTS, which is why i'm trying to work with the RNIB on a sourceforge project for hardware speech support for stuff like NVDA
11:37:30 [ShaneM]
in your copious free time?
11:38:22 [oedipus]
something like that -- it's just that if NVDA wants to get ANY market penetration into the mainstream it HAS to support older tech, as hardware synths were VERY expensive
11:38:46 [oedipus]
i'm looking for other to do the coding - i'm just simon legree
11:39:00 [oedipus]
trying to harvest graduate students
11:39:09 [oedipus]
which is always a dangerous thing
11:39:26 [ShaneM]
can be rewarding but yeah - takes a lot off effort
11:39:56 [oedipus]
you said it -- that's why even the "mainstream" ATs are moving towards software everything
11:40:11 [oedipus]
but 70% of the target population is unemployed
11:40:25 [oedipus]
statistics that are similar throughout the "developed" world
11:41:03 [ShaneM]
thats a shockingly high number. sometime you will have to explain to me how that 70% eats
11:41:47 [oedipus]
which is why i've been trying to get WAI to set up proxy servers for 12 years -- see if the concept/fix works and if it does, implement it, but leave the proxy up ther for those whose hardware is "frozen in time"
11:41:50 [oedipus]
food stamps
11:42:09 [Roland_]
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11:43:04 [Roland_]
I do not, but my "vanilla" dog didn't really like stamps
11:43:33 [Roland_]
11:43:33 [oedipus]
those are the numbers according to AFB (in USA) RNIB (in UK) and australia & NZ
11:43:52 [oedipus]
that's one postman who won't ring twice
11:44:21 [ShaneM]
are we getting ready to restart?
11:44:39 [oedipus]
to see what most blind people are dealing with, check
11:45:27 [oedipus]
1 hour, 10 minutes & 56 seconds according to my stopwatch since we broke
11:45:45 [oedipus]
i have a stopwatch on my talking watch
11:46:01 [samsa]
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11:47:33 [ShaneM]
zakim left us
11:47:48 [oedipus]
steven dismissed him
11:47:54 [Steven]
Di not
11:47:58 [Steven]
did not
11:47:58 [oedipus]
they have to connect first
11:48:03 [Zakim]
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11:48:07 [oedipus]
oh, then maybe it was roland
11:48:10 [Steven]
zakim, this is xhtml
11:48:10 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; that matches IA_XHTML2()3:00AM
11:48:18 [Steven]
zakim, call executive_3
11:48:18 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
11:48:20 [Zakim]
11:48:50 [Zakim]
11:48:58 [oeddie]
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11:49:01 [Steven]
zakim, who is on the phone?
11:49:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ShaneM, Executive_3, oedipus
11:50:53 [oedipus]
RESOLUTION: take handler out, put into Events Module, ability to invoke script function will be added to handler
11:50:55 [oedipus]
RESOLUTION: specify either a handler or a function attribute; if specify both @function takes precedence
11:50:55 [oedipus]
RESOLUTION: keep everything from XHTML 1.0 definition of script
11:51:07 [Steven]
11:51:16 [oedipus]
11:51:50 [nick]
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11:52:12 [oedipus]
11:52:32 [oedipus]
RM: Shane had dialog with commentor
11:52:40 [oedipus]
11:52:50 [oedipus]
We recommend that XHTML be delivered as HTML, but that means it is not valid HTML. Do we care?
11:53:09 [oedipus]
(above from agenda)
11:53:33 [oedipus]
SM: high level: applied most of simon's edits; not much from others;
11:53:53 [oedipus]
SM: asked for clarification on few issues and he did that
11:54:26 [oedipus]
SM: in this document - original Note and updating - original Note did thurough job of looking at all media types might deliver XML/XHTML document
11:54:45 [oedipus]
SM: does it make sense to talk about DTDs and discourage their use
11:55:12 [oedipus]
SM: Section 3.3 - application/xml
11:55:17 [oedipus]
SP: reads document
11:55:50 [oedipus]
SP: worth pointing out that can do it, but may not always be processed as XHTML
11:56:03 [oedipus]
RM: while may work, recommend you don't do this
11:56:17 [oedipus]
RM: shouldn't we recommend one over other
11:56:37 [oedipus]
SP: allow both, not champion one over other - ok to serve HTML to XML processor
11:56:41 [oedipus]
11:57:06 [myakura]
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11:57:06 [oedipus]
RM: application/xml and application+xml that have to say diff things about them
11:57:20 [oedipus]
RM: what it is that we recommend should or should not do them
11:57:35 [oedipus]
RM: you MAY or you SHOULD?
12:00:15 [oedipus]
RM: who is meant to read document?
12:00:21 [oedipus]
SM: document authors
12:00:52 [oedipus]
RM: shouldn't we then be more explicit about XHTML family and modularization?
12:01:10 [oedipus]
SM: don't know how to answer that question
12:01:28 [oedipus]
RM: less technically correct - this applies to XHTML 1.0, XHTML 1.1 or XHTML Basic 1.1
12:01:33 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't just apply to those
12:01:58 [oedipus]
RM: XHTML 1.1 Basic adoption by author application of XHTML Modularization
12:02:39 [oedipus]
RM: can we put it that way -- if it begins with X, then it is XHTML and an author application of modularizatino
12:02:54 [oedipus]
SM: if this doc talks about M12n anywhere is a mistake
12:02:59 [oedipus]
SM: mentions rec
12:03:08 [oedipus]
RM: reads from abstract
12:03:31 [oedipus]
RM: is that really the case?
12:04:16 [oedipus]
RM: that's why there are XHTML Media Types - only read this doc if want to write XHTML and how to best get processed by User Agent
12:04:18 [oedipus]
SM: ok
12:04:26 [alessio]
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12:04:37 [oedipus]
RM: this is Note produced by us
12:04:43 [oedipus]
RM: Introduction
12:05:00 [oedipus]
RM: talks about XHTML1 versus HTML 4.01
12:05:06 [oedipus]
SM: historical data
12:06:16 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:06:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
12:06:57 [oedipus]
RM: Introduction: brief summary
12:07:29 [oedipus]
12:08:31 [oedipus]
RM: some stuff we don't want - they chose language, so will get what they get - language designer, not m12n that made that decision
12:08:52 [oedipus]
RM: too much for people to say "do i have to worry about all this? i'll just use HTML 4.01"
12:09:04 [oedipus]
SM: ok - strike first paragraph?
12:09:14 [oedipus]
RM: actually last paragraph
12:09:26 [oedipus]
"Note that, because of the lack of explicit support for XHTML (and XML in general) in some user agents, only very careful construction of documents can ensure their portability (see Appendix A). If you do not require the advanced features of XHTML Family markup languages (e.g., XML DOM, XML Validation, extensibility via XHTML Modularization, semantic markup via XHTML+RDFa, Assistive Technology access via the XHTML Role and XHTML Access modules, etc.), you may w
12:10:19 [oedipus]
SM: happy to reword, but last paragraph addresses objection tina had (we really should tell people use HTML4 unless need XHTML) - reasonable - don't jump through hoops if don't have to
12:10:25 [oedipus]
RM: terms and definitions
12:10:55 [oedipus]
XHTML Family Document Type: "A document type which belongs to the family of XHTML document types. Such document types include [XHTML1], and XHTML Host Language document types such as XHTML 1.1 [XHTML11] and XHTML Basic [XHTMLBasic]. Elements and attributes in those document types belong to the XHTML namespace (except those from the XML namespace, such as xml:lang), but an XHTML Family document type may also include elements and attributes from other namespaces,
12:11:35 [oedipus]
RM: support XHTML, but "host language document type" matter to reader of doc?
12:11:56 [oedipus]
SM: defined because term is used in previous definition - you are right - more academic approach than needed
12:12:07 [oedipus]
RM: Section 3.2
12:12:17 [oedipus]
12:12:31 [oedipus]
SM: only docs that adhere to our structural reqs can use this media type
12:12:34 [alessio]
agree with roland
12:13:09 [oedipus]
RM: that's why concentrating on reading from author's PoV
12:14:17 [oedipus]
RM: same with application type - obscure terms versus critical terms
12:14:56 [oedipus]
RM: if i am a document author, don't need to understand a lot of what is explained
12:15:12 [oedipus]
GJR: agree -- type of thing that makes people say "it's all geek to me"
12:15:55 [alessio]
yeah, that's true gregory
12:16:13 [oedipus]
RM: just tell me what to do, save theory for another document
12:16:39 [oedipus]
SM: originally not intended for document authors as it was to explain to XHTML2 what works and what doesn't in real world
12:17:20 [oedipus]
RM: significance check of terms - integration document set; host language document type
12:17:55 [oedipus]
SM: in previous term define XHTML family; would define XHTML Family by turning def around
12:18:13 [oedipus]
Section 3: 3. Recommended Media Type Usage
12:18:37 [oedipus]
RM: looks clear to me
12:18:38 [oedipus]
@@@@Issue: Do we believe that XHTML documents that adhere to the guidelines are "valid" HTML? Should that be a goal?@@@@
12:18:54 [oedipus]
SM: Simon objects to this; i may be being obtuse
12:18:58 [oedipus]
SP: what is objection
12:19:15 [oedipus]
SM: thinks we are defining content-negotiation and are doing it ppoorly
12:20:01 [oedipus]
SM: shouldn't be redefining rules of content negotiations in doc
12:20:32 [oedipus]
SM: hadn't considered that problem; thinking had been if UA prefers text/html, give in xhtml because that is what it is
12:21:29 [oedipus]
RM: if accept header that states application/xhtml+xml ...
12:21:48 [ShaneM]
if the Accept header explicitly contains <code>application/xhtml+xml</code>
12:21:48 [ShaneM]
and prefers it over other types
12:21:48 [ShaneM]
deliver the document using that media type.
12:21:51 [Steven]
then deliver as xhtml because that is what it is
12:22:38 [oedipus]
SP: what is our aim? deliver XHTML - so deliver as xhtml, and problem over
12:22:52 [oedipus]
SM: exactly
12:23:06 [oedipus]
SP: trying to say if doesn't accept xhtml, have to do something else
12:23:54 [oedipus]
SM: if that is case - what WG wants to say - not defining content negotiation, but telling author if explicitly containx xhtml (with no Qvalue) deliver using that media type
12:24:39 [oedipus]
SM: point 2: if explicitly contains xhtml ... (missed)
12:24:56 [oedipus]
SM: point 3: if */*, then deliver what can
12:25:13 [oedipus]
RM: if text/html and xhtml, regardless of priorities, serve xhtml
12:25:36 [oedipus]
RM: if can handle xhtml, always parse the xhtml
12:26:06 [oedipus]
SM: anything beyond point 4 is gilding the lilly
12:26:34 [oedipus]
RM: doesn't recommend xhtml text/html or */* - have to know what media types DOM is capable of - no recommendation
12:27:00 [oedipus]
GJR: makes sense, can only tell authors what to do, can't control parsing
12:27:17 [oedipus]
SP: want to say right up front that not redefining content negotiation
12:27:25 [oedipus]
RM: yes, need to make very clear
12:28:05 [ShaneM]
This section summarizes which Internet media type should
12:28:05 [ShaneM]
be used for which XHTML Family document for which purpose.
12:28:05 [ShaneM]
Note that while some suggestions are made in this section with
12:28:05 [ShaneM]
regard to content delivery, this section is by no means
12:28:05 [ShaneM]
a comprehensive discussion of content negotiation techniques.
12:28:58 [oedipus]
plus 1 to general gist
12:30:32 [oedipus]
RM: state intended readership up front?
12:30:46 [oedipus]
SM: yes, definitely
12:31:53 [ShaneM]
abstract: Many people want to use XHTML to author their web pages, but are confused
12:31:53 [ShaneM]
about the best ways to deliver those pages in such a way that they will be
12:31:53 [ShaneM]
processed correctly by various user agents. This Note contains
12:31:53 [ShaneM]
12:31:54 [ShaneM]
about how to format XHTML to ensure it is maximally portable, and how to deliver
12:31:54 [ShaneM]
XHTML to various user agents - even those that do not yet support XHTML natively.
12:31:56 [ShaneM]
This document is intended to be used by document authors who want to use
12:31:58 [ShaneM]
XHTML today, but want to be confident that their XHTML content is going to
12:32:00 [ShaneM]
work in the greatest number of environments.
12:33:08 [alessio]
it has "pratical" sense...
12:34:14 [Steven]
Looks good to me
12:34:45 [alessio]
yes, me too
12:34:54 [oedipus]
SM: Section 3 - what to do when XML doc does not adhere to guidelines
12:35:18 [oedipus]
SM: if doesn't adhere, don't send as text/html - needs transformation, not false declaration
12:35:54 [oedipus]
SM: Simon pointed out shouldn't deliver html documents because not valid
12:36:10 [oedipus]
SP: shouldn't be saying "getting XHTML into browser"
12:36:19 [Steven]
12:36:23 [Steven]
12:36:31 [oedipus]
RM: if you do these things, it will be sufficient to get effect you want in most UAs
12:36:40 [oedipus]
SM: Steven, strike entire paragraph
12:36:52 [oedipus]
12:37:21 [oedipus]
RM: maybe should say nothing
12:38:37 [oedipus]
SM: it is about document performance, not UA limitatinos
12:38:53 [oedipus]
RM: use at own risk - will evolve -- suggestions to improve chances
12:39:07 [oedipus]
SM: up to us to keep document up to date - fix, and update periodically
12:39:40 [oedipus]
SM: strike entire paragraph?
12:39:43 [ShaneM]
Steve suggested: When an XHTML document does NOT adhere to the guidelines, it should only be delivered as media type <code>application/xhtml+xml</code>.
12:39:50 [oedipus]
RM: strike it and see
12:40:24 [oedipus]
SM: added at specific request
12:40:34 [oedipus]
RM: pragmatic, not purist, document
12:40:45 [oedipus]
SM: removed all RFC2119 words
12:43:01 [oedipus]
SM: remove about transforming into HTML?
12:46:02 [oedipus]
SM: haven't removed any guidelines, but rules in 1.0 still in document - backwards compatibility there
12:46:05 [oedipus]
GJR: right
12:47:10 [oedipus]
SM: Simon said "why still asserting this - no longer relevant" - no longer relevant to opera 9, but where does that get the world?
12:47:29 [oedipus]
"Note: It is possible that in the future XHTML Modularization will define rules for indicating which specific XHTML Family members are supported by a requestor (e.g., via the profile parameter of the media type in the Accept header). Such rules, when used in conjunction with the "q" parameter of the media type could help a server determine which of several versions of a document to deliver - thereby allowing server-side customization of content for specific cla
12:47:57 [oedipus]
SP: XHTML Basic gets delivered with profile
12:48:08 [oedipus]
SP: OMA spec includes something along those lines
12:48:43 [oedipus]
RM: what would make me do something different in raction to note?
12:48:48 [oedipus]
SM: none - remove
12:49:34 [oedipus]
RM: should be as short as we can make it and no shorter
12:50:28 [oedipus]
SM: section 3.4 should be 3.1
12:50:48 [oedipus]
12:50:55 [oedipus]
RM: seemed out of order to me
12:51:41 [oedipus]
RM: when conforms to guidelines in this document "carefully constrcuted" means what?
12:52:18 [oedipus]
SM: will fix
12:52:34 [oedipus]
SM: character encoding
12:52:50 [oedipus]
RM: trying to figure out how to express why matters to me as author
12:53:03 [oedipus]
SM: don't need to give all background; just tell them what to do
12:53:15 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't tell what to do anyway
12:53:34 [oedipus]
SM: GL9 in Appendix A.9
12:53:45 [oedipus]
DO encode your document in UTF-8 or UTF-16. When delivering the document from a server, DO set the character encoding for a document via the charset parameter of the HTTP Content-Type header. When not delivering the document from a server, DO set the encoding via a "meta http-equiv" statement in the document (e.g., <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=EUC-JP" />). However, note that doing so will explicitly bind the document to an a singl
12:53:45 [oedipus]
Rationale: Since these guidelines already recommend that documents NOT contain the XML declaration, setting the encoding via the HTTP header is the only reliable mechanism compatible with HTML and XML user agents. When that mechanism is not available, the only portable fallback is the "meta http-equiv" statement.
12:54:08 [oedipus]
SM: Simon said example silly (change to japanese at end)
12:54:24 [oedipus]
RM: beware of character encoding issues, in particular GL/A.9
12:54:34 [oedipus]
RM: why reiterate?
12:55:06 [oedipus]
RM: if have guidelines, point to them, don't reiterate them
12:55:36 [oedipus]
SM: if content in here i care about, will push down to guidelines
12:55:53 [oedipus]
SM: 3.3. 'application/xml'
12:56:05 [oedipus]
RM: all is honky-dory - procede - no problem
12:56:27 [oedipus]
RM: run trhough validator; if valid, procede
12:56:35 [oedipus]
12:56:53 [oedipus]
RM: bit of overkill
12:57:16 [oedipus]
SM: put in because validator people trying to enforce validity guidelines
12:58:26 [oedipus]
s/SM: 3.3 'application/xml'/SM: 3.2 application/xhtml+xml
12:58:43 [oedipus]
SM: XML stylesheet processing instructions? keep?
12:58:59 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:58:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:00:07 [oedipus]
SP: idea that this is XML so should use XML features where possible; when XML and HTML feaature, XML feature should get priority
13:00:37 [oedipus]
SM: not XSLT, but sytlesheet PI
13:00:55 [oedipus]
SM: will just remove paragraph
13:01:04 [oedipus]
SM: final paragraph - character encoding issues
13:01:17 [oedipus]
RM: thought was all utf-8
13:01:30 [oedipus]
SM: if serving as text/html can serve as whatever you want
13:01:59 [oedipus]
RM: recommendations? HTML4 as well as XHTML
13:02:22 [oedipus]
SM: if that is the case shouldn't be telling people to ignore guidelines
13:02:42 [oedipus]
SM: if message is you care about portability, follow the guidelines
13:02:47 [oedipus]
RM: content-encoding
13:03:40 [oedipus]
RM: circular reference
13:04:06 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't depend on RFC
13:04:27 [oedipus]
SM: documented in 3.3 - says same thing we already believe it wants
13:06:20 [oedipus]
SM: will be document processing agents, not user agents - search engines, and trawling tools
13:06:53 [oedipus]
RM: 3rd paragraph - "generic user agent"
13:07:21 [oedipus]
RM: user agent give what it asks for, don't worry about it
13:07:38 [oedipus]
SM: suggest leave 3.3 and 3.4 - remove references to other media types from this document
13:08:20 [oedipus]
RM: reference 3.3 to 3.2
13:08:28 [oedipus]
SM: think can remove summary section
13:08:33 [oedipus]
RM: refer to it early on
13:08:35 [alessio]
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13:08:42 [oedipus]
RM: looks too complicated
13:08:52 [oedipus]
RM: althought will be a lot smaller
13:09:25 [oedipus]
SM: we've said what preference rules are and why should use; at beginning of section 3, should expand on it - already did
13:10:51 [oedipus]
SM: in section on application/xhml+xml - if document uses other namespaces MUST use this mime type
13:11:00 [oedipus]
RM: reverse and put in other section
13:11:38 [oedipus]
RM: Appendix A looks better with DO NOTs and DOs
13:12:25 [oedipus]
RM: Appendix A
13:12:32 [oedipus]
RM: Appendix A.1 - sounds good
13:13:13 [oedipus]
SM: made all changes SimonP wanted, so should be satisfied - when done with whinnowing process, we should go back and add more examples
13:13:36 [oedipus]
RM: A.2, A.3 fine to me
13:13:53 [oedipus]
SM: added extras to A.4
13:15:12 [oedipus]
RM: A.4 actually works?
13:15:13 [oedipus]
SM: yes
13:15:17 [oedipus]
RM: will be using
13:15:34 [oedipus]
SM: A.5 because is allowed
13:15:57 [oedipus]
SM: A.6 missing - deleted rule - reluctant to renumber other rules because map to XHTML 1.0
13:16:08 [oedipus]
SP: could say A.6 Deleted
13:16:17 [oedipus]
RM: or superseded by events
13:16:36 [oedipus]
GJR: thanks for A.7
13:17:44 [oedipus]
SM: need to complete second "DO NOT"
13:17:50 [oedipus]
RM: should not use one or the other
13:17:55 [oedipus]
SM: rationale says why
13:18:06 [oedipus]
SM: reinforces why need to reintroduce into XHTML2
13:18:25 [oedipus]
SM: A.8 Fragment Identifiers
13:18:36 [oedipus]
SP: very good
13:18:44 [oedipus]
GJR: 2 thumbs up (guess where)
13:18:57 [oedipus]
SM: meta stuff addressed in A.9
13:20:12 [oedipus]
"DO encode your document in UTF-8 or UTF-16. When delivering the document from a server, DO set the character encoding for a document via the charset parameter of the HTTP Content-Type header. When not delivering the document from a server, DO set the encoding via a "meta http-equiv" statement in the document (e.g., <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=EUC-JP" />). However, note that doing so will explicitly bind the document to an a sing
13:20:38 [oedipus]
"Rationale: Since these guidelines already recommend that documents NOT contain the XML declaration, setting the encoding via the HTTP header is the only reliable mechanism compatible with HTML and XML user agents. When that mechanism is not available, the only portable fallback is the "meta http-equiv" statement."
13:20:46 [oedipus]
SM: covered here
13:21:03 [oedipus]
SM: changed EUC-JP to utf-i
13:21:12 [oedipus]
13:21:25 [oedipus]
RM: Move on to Appendix B
13:21:43 [oedipus]
13:21:49 [oedipus]
SM: not sure got this right
13:22:41 [oedipus]
SM: can rely on html DOM methods; overlap with XHTML DOM; but XHTML DOM not going to return elements and attributes in upper case
13:23:05 [oedipus]
SM: think portable is: rely upon the DOM
13:23:09 [oedipus]
SP: all need to say
13:23:29 [oedipus]
SM: bit about element and attribute names meaningful - uppercase versus lowercase
13:23:55 [oedipus]
RM: if want to be case insensitive, use lower, otherwise will have to use camelcase
13:24:10 [oedipus]
RM: be sensitive to case
13:24:37 [oedipus]
SM: DO ensure element and attribute names are case insensitive in your scripts.
13:25:40 [oedipus]
RM: A.12 seems fine
13:25:52 [oedipus]
RM: just needs examples
13:25:58 [alessio]
13:28:01 [oedipus]
RM: A.14 - ok
13:28:14 [oedipus]
RM: A.15 formfeed character
13:28:22 [oedipus]
SP: fixed in later XML
13:28:31 [oedipus]
RM: no harm in doing this
13:29:35 [oedipus]
RM: A.16 - ok
13:29:57 [oedipus]
RM: A.17 The XML DTD Internal Subset
13:30:16 [oedipus]
SM: A.18 perhaps too strong
13:30:30 [oedipus]
"DO NOT use the XML CDATA mechanism."
13:31:12 [oedipus]
SM: contradict with A.4 - bring into harmony
13:31:43 [oedipus]
RM: A.19 - just tbody?
13:31:58 [oedipus]
SM: thought were ignored, not inferred?
13:32:07 [oedipus]
SM: don't think are in DOM
13:32:21 [oedipus]
SM: Steven, might be right that there is another inferred element
13:33:36 [oedipus]
SP: context of stylesheets, think just tbody
13:34:13 [oedipus]
RM: DO use the base element if you need to establish an alternate base URI for your document. should be in same block as ""DO NOT use the xml:base element.
13:34:42 [oedipus]
RM: document.write - do not use
13:34:48 [oedipus]
SM: wondering if rationale is right
13:35:47 [oedipus]
SP: parsing models for XML doesn't require halving on fly; document.write only works with streaming parsers, so shouldn't use it; might do reader some good explaining how to do so modifies DOM directly
13:35:53 [oedipus]
SM: a "do" clause?
13:36:13 [oedipus]
RM: if this is what you ar etrying to achieve, use DOM manipulation to achieve same effect
13:36:51 [oedipus]
RM: 22 application/xml and the DOM
13:36:55 [oedipus]
SM: get rid of it?
13:36:58 [oedipus]
SP: yes,
13:37:33 [oedipus]
SM: 23 put in over tina's objection "updating document using innerHTML"
13:37:43 [oedipus]
SP: is this difference between HTML and XHTML rule
13:38:03 [oedipus]
SM: simon said ensure content is well formed and here is GL if going to
13:38:07 [oedipus]
RM: reasonable caveat
13:38:13 [oedipus]
SM: took one step further
13:38:40 [oedipus]
RM: example, such as that needed for document.write - show how to do properly if need to do it
13:39:11 [oedipus]
RM: 24 scripts and missing tbody elemtns
13:39:22 [oedipus]
SP: still don't understand why 23 in here?
13:39:34 [oedipus]
SM: have to ensure that conforms to GL if going to insert it
13:40:05 [oedipus]
SP: link should be in rationale
13:40:17 [oedipus]
SP: 25 says too much and too little
13:40:56 [oedipus]
"Rationale: In HTML 4, these properties were often specified on the body element. CSS specifies that in XHTML they need to be specified on the html element in order to apply to the entire viewport."
13:41:04 [oedipus]
SM: and CSS spec says works that way
13:41:20 [oedipus]
SP: insisted spec say that because couldn't do any other way - compromise
13:42:04 [oedipus]
SP: ensure any CSS properties on HTML element are also specified on BODY element
13:42:36 [oedipus]
SP: warning is: if serve XHTML as xhtml, garuntee that CSS will work - if serve as html will work in some browsers and not in others
13:42:53 [oedipus]
SM: diff problem - CSS on body element, syles bounding box of body, not viewport
13:42:58 [oedipus]
SM: very different effects
13:43:24 [oedipus]
SP: standard thing to do is switch everything off HTML and onto BODY
13:43:50 [oedipus]
SP: On some user agents, put initial sytling on HTML some on BODY, so have to code CSS to take that to into account
13:44:18 [oedipus]
SM: ensure properties on HTML also on BODY is fine
13:44:32 [oedipus]
SP: rationale is some UAs recognize in BODY or HTML
13:45:43 [oedipus]
SM: 26 - didn't realize problem with noscript
13:47:38 [oedipus]
SM: if scripting is enabled, contents of noscript parsed as CCDATA if script parsed as CDATA
13:47:50 [oedipus]
13:48:57 [oedipus]
SM: 37 iframe Element
13:49:24 [oedipus]
s/37 iframe/27 iframe
13:51:21 [oedipus]
SP: noscript needed because of document.write
13:51:48 [oedipus]
SM: thought no script was for alternative to script
13:52:18 [oedipus]
SP: if do all with DOM mutations, initial version of document can contain script that deletes the element
13:52:50 [oedipus]
SP: functionality is there if use script - if use document.write version to change then do need noscript to catch that
13:53:08 [oedipus]
SM: 37 iframe Element
13:53:15 [oedipus]
SP: need explanation
13:56:06 [oedipus]
SM: simon says content is parsed differently - in HTML parsed as CDATA when scripting enabled, or PCDATA when scripting disabled, but in XML alwasy parsed as CDATA - same problem as noscript
13:56:20 [oedipus]
SM: don't know if compatibility issue
13:56:39 [oedipus]
SP: not only if evaluated as HTML or XHTML but whether scripting enabled or not
13:56:56 [oedipus]
SM: need to copy bit from noscript one
13:57:32 [oedipus]
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1. What is the current state of accessibility of IFRAME?
14:04:18 [oedipus]
2. What are the outstanding accessibility problems inherit to IFRAME, or have they been mitigated?
14:04:18 [oedipus]
1. if, for example, one has a document embedded in an IFRAME which has access keys defined for it, will the embedded document's UI controls take precedence when the focus is in the IFRAME? what about conflicts between embedded UI controls and UI controls in host documents? what if a tabindex value has been defined for the IFRAME, and the document in the IFRAME has its own tabindex order?
14:04:18 [oedipus]
The basic question is: How do the 2 documents interact and what can be done to standardize this interaction? Is it possible to harmonize W3C's efforts on IFRAME reform, which include IFRAME in XHTML2 (a subject currently being revisited after having been dropped), the XHTML IFRAME Module and the XHTML Legacy Module versus IFRAME in HTML5) with OpenAjax's support for iFrames?
14:05:06 [oedipus]
RM: good if have demonstrative positive example will benefit intended reader base
14:05:54 [alessio]
we could investigate possible interactions between IFRAME and wai-aria
14:06:12 [oedipus]
SP: ODF wants to use RDFa in documents, and wanted to use xml:broccoli - allowed according to namespacing rules
14:06:21 [oedipus]
@alessio -- yes, definitely
14:07:22 [oedipus]
SM: RDFa - does it define an attribute collection?
14:08:08 [oedipus]
SM: Metadata Attribute Collection
14:08:19 [ShaneM]
14:09:36 [oedipus]
SP: CC message to group or just to ODF inquirer?
14:10:00 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:10:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:10:09 [oedipus]
14:10:12 [Steven]
I just messaged the guy
14:10:16 [Steven]
since he sent it to me only
14:10:40 [oedipus]
SP: all our ducks are in a row
14:11:35 [oedipus]
SM: at last f2f we agreed that i was to rip out all sections duplicating content of other specs, then refer to them and then be done
14:11:51 [oedipus]
SM: then thought bad idead beacuse refer to attributes that aren't defined in spec
14:12:03 [oedipus]
SM: have to include placeholders in spec
14:12:10 [oedipus]
SM: told me to rip that all out
14:12:29 [oedipus]
SP: if go to Forms section, tells me what i need to know
14:12:42 [oedipus]
SM: thought i was supposed to take that out
14:13:09 [oedipus]
RM: pointer saying there is this module and the module is elsewhere; summary in XHTML2 or statement "here is module, here is pointer"
14:13:19 [oedipus]
SM: like that tact
14:14:10 [ShaneM]
XHTMLMIME is updated
14:14:12 [oedipus]
RM: a module such as XML Events and XML Handlers are for incorporation into 1.3 if wanted and XHTML2 if wanted -- is that true?
14:14:39 [oedipus]
RM: like to think it is true, but may never be true statement depending on what happens with XHTML2
14:14:59 [oedipus]
RM: developing XML Events 2 reusable in both existing m12n scheme and XHTML2
14:15:11 [oedipus]
SP: yes, for both, planning on importing events 2
14:15:29 [oedipus]
RM: nothing more in XHTML2 than incorporates XML Events 2 and XHML Handlers 2
14:15:35 [Steven]
s/planning/XForms is planning/
14:16:07 [oedipus]
RM: Access, Role, etc. only in XHTML2 by reference
14:16:09 [oedipus]
SM: ok
14:17:53 [oedipus]
SM: dependent on modules - long pole in tent Access or Events 2
14:18:09 [oedipus]
RM: implementations for XHTML2 will be needed, too
14:18:40 [oedipus]
RM: Script module in there, too - pull that into XHTML2 and add @implements
14:18:47 [oedipus]
SP: issue new WD next month?
14:18:57 [oedipus]
RM: before christmas moritorium
14:19:16 [oedipus]
SP: relationship to referenced documents
14:19:20 [oedipus]
RM: in LC
14:19:32 [oedipus]
SP: early next year for LC would be good target
14:19:52 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Next Face2Face
14:19:55 [oedipus]
SP: when
14:20:03 [oedipus]
RM: february
14:20:15 [oedipus]
14:22:13 [oedipus]
SP: pretty far advanced - things don't have implementations for in XHTML2 (frames replacement stuff) and @src and @href everywhere; alessio helping on all those fronts
14:22:27 [oedipus]
SP: implementation of features demonstration in good shape
14:22:44 [oedipus]
SM: what version of XForms including?
14:22:52 [oedipus]
SP: anticipating XForms 1.1
14:23:00 [oedipus]
SM: XML Events 2, too?
14:23:02 [oedipus]
14:23:12 [oedipus]
SM: can't imagine get too far without test suite
14:23:19 [alessio]
surely gregory
14:23:25 [oedipus]
SP: once go to LC, major work will be producing test suite
14:23:59 [oedipus]
SM: had one of my guys take existing XHTML test suite and start readying for change to XHTML2 - should i have him continue?
14:24:01 [oedipus]
SP: yes
14:24:16 [oedipus]
SM: if can take advantage of that work will help us along
14:24:28 [oedipus]
SP: anything else?
14:25:07 [oedipus]
RM: talked about docs individually - resolved to go to CR and PER on docs;
14:25:25 [oedipus]
RM: XHTML2 separate into separate specs at later date?
14:25:49 [oedipus]
14:26:17 [oedipus]
14:26:33 [oedipus]
SM: meet next wednesday?
14:26:51 [oedipus]
SP: call starts while still at airport
14:27:03 [oedipus]
GJR: US Daylight savings time ends this weekend
14:27:27 [oedipus]
SM: if have any cycles to work on transition requests for PERs i probably have the time
14:28:50 [oedipus]
SP: long ago, we said to anne van kestren that we would change IDREF on imagemaps when re-issued 1.1
14:29:05 [oedipus]
SP: should make sure we should do that
14:29:13 [oedipus]
SM: where 1.2 or 2?
14:29:16 [oedipus]
RM: 1.2
14:29:38 [oedipus]
SM: override def of module for m12n - not update m12n because then break all other languages
14:29:45 [ShaneM]
ACTION: Shane add the IDREF change for imagemap to XHTML 1.2
14:29:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-16 - Add the IDREF change for imagemap to XHTML 1.2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-10-31].
14:29:59 [oedipus]
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IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has ended
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Attendees were ShaneM, Executive_3, oedipus
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zakim, please part
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14:30:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:30:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:32:38 [Steven]
thanks ALessio
14:32:53 [oedipus]
pressent- oedipus
14:33:00 [oedipus]
present+ Gregory_Rosmaita
14:33:02 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:33:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:33:59 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
14:33:59 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
14:33:59 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane add the IDREF change for imagemap to XHTML 1.2 [1]
14:33:59 [RRSAgent]
recorded in