06:35:25 RRSAgent has joined #tp 06:35:25 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-irc 06:35:26 Charlie has left #tp 06:35:54 rrsagent, make log public 06:35:57 mth has joined #tp 06:36:26 CharlieWiecha has joined #tp 06:37:33 Lachy has joined #tp 06:37:35 unl has joined #tp 06:38:02 plinss_ has joined #tp 06:38:27 MarkusK_ has joined #tp 06:38:29 Ralph has joined #tp 06:38:38 Zakim has joined #tp 06:38:41 good morning everyone. first session due to start at :45 06:38:44 zakim, this will be tp 06:38:44 ok, Ralph; I see W3C_TP()2:00AM scheduled to start 38 minutes ago 06:38:58 rrsagent, please make record member-visible 06:39:06 Meeting: Technical Plenary 06:40:28 Steven has joined #tp 06:40:54 renato has joined #tp 06:41:40 raman has joined #tp 06:41:53 wish they'd color the network differently:-) 06:42:34 taki has joined #tp 06:43:23 scribe: Steven-scribe 06:43:32 rrsagent, make minutes 06:43:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html Steven-scribe 06:43:46 jules has joined #tp 06:45:11 SeanP has joined #tp 06:45:15 ChrisL has joined #tp 06:45:18 renato has joined #tp 06:45:21 plinss_ has joined #tp 06:45:35 hsivonen has joined #tp 06:46:09 W3C_TP()2:00AM has now started 06:46:09 kbals has joined #tp 06:46:10 +Riviera_a 06:46:23 zakim, riviera_a is MeetingRoom 06:46:23 +MeetingRoom; got it 06:46:34 gsnedders has joined #tp 06:46:40 ArtB has joined #tp 06:46:48 glazou has joined #tp 06:46:49 Steeeven has joined #tp 06:47:05 jallan has joined #tp 06:47:12 VagnerBrazil has joined #tp 06:47:21 smedero has joined #tp 06:48:19 spark3 has joined #tp 06:48:31 :-) 06:48:33 Norm has joined #tp 06:48:56 smedero has joined #tp 06:49:06 caribou has joined #tp 06:49:27 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/TPDay-Agenda 06:49:50 Topic: Opening Keynote: "Cleaning up the Web" 06:49:56 SteveB: Welcome 06:50:23 plinss_ has joined #tp 06:50:24 ... this an exciting time in W3C and the Web 06:50:24 ivan_ has joined #tp 06:50:30 jeanne has joined #tp 06:50:37 wonsuk has joined #tp 06:50:48 .... we have lots of great activities, competition 06:50:56 ... we are motivated to find interoperable solutions 06:50:56 Kangchan has joined #tp 06:50:57 nick has joined #tp 06:51:02 ... there are now 75 groups at W3C 06:51:05 ... the most ever 06:51:13 ... over 1500 people in WGs 06:51:26 ... not including 'public IEs' 06:51:38 ... 35000 people subscribed to mailing lists 06:51:45 ... 40 groups here this week 06:51:47 unl_ has joined #tp 06:51:50 ... next year in Bay area 06:51:56 francois has joined #tp 06:51:58 ori_ has joined #tp 06:52:02 ... now welcome Tim Berners-Lee 06:52:08 Al has joined #tp 06:52:14 hendry_ has joined #tp 06:52:24 jkangash has joined #tp 06:52:36 dsr has joined #tp 06:52:37 brutzman has joined #tp 06:52:39 [Scribe will not scribe talk fully, since slides will be on the web] 06:52:42 MichaelC has joined #tp 06:52:53 hendry has joined #tp 06:53:15 steve has joined #tp 06:53:15 Liam has joined #tp 06:53:23 dom has joined #tp 06:54:00 herve has joined #tp 06:54:11 hey, 350 laptops that's too much for Pullman Hotels :-) 06:54:16 raman has joined #tp 06:54:38 rahul has joined #tp 06:55:17 mchampion has joined #tp 06:55:23 renato has joined #tp 06:55:24 sylvaing has joined #tp 06:55:52 mauro has joined #tp 06:56:16 http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm 06:56:16 slide link not found at http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/TPDay-Agenda 06:56:24 Steeeve1 has joined #tp 06:56:27 amy has joined #tp 06:56:31 "ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN" by Robert Fulghum 06:56:43 scribe: Steeeven 06:57:02 [scribe got cut off with power failure] 06:57:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_I_Really_Need_to_Know_I_Learned_in_Kindergarten 06:57:36 Rotan has joined #tp 06:57:46 MoZ has joined #tp 06:57:51 tbl: now we have the web, and we realise there are more mantras 06:57:58 unl has joined #tp 06:57:59 smedero has joined #tp 06:58:00 darobin has joined #tp 06:58:04 Yves has joined #tp 06:58:07 najib has joined #TP 06:58:09 -MeetingRoom 06:58:10 ... internet was built on top of telephony, and the web on top of internet 06:58:11 W3C_TP()2:00AM has ended 06:58:11 Attendees were MeetingRoom 06:58:26 ... every layer should be a layer on top of another 06:58:31 renato has joined #tp 06:58:31 W3C_TP()2:00AM has now started 06:58:32 +Riviera_a 06:58:39 zakim, riviera_a is MeetingRoom 06:58:39 +MeetingRoom; got it 06:58:58 ... what we learned in web kindergarden is being added by the TAG 06:59:11 ... and mantras and aphorisms are being added 06:59:23 anne has joined #tp 06:59:24 ... most of them are SHOULDs 06:59:42 laurent has joined #tp 06:59:43 ... tthere are other things we learn 06:59:48 ... to listen to people 06:59:48 s/tt/t/ 07:00:06 ... the listening you are doing now is passive, and therefore not very good 07:00:07 jallan_ has joined #tp 07:00:25 ... active listening would involve more interaction until you understood what I meant 07:00:45 erik has joined #tp 07:00:59 ... and a group culture would allow us to work together, but be a barrier for people from the outside 07:01:13 ... one of the tensions has been the broken markup that is out there 07:01:15 ... broken servers 07:01:33 smedero has joined #tp 07:01:33 ... to oversimplify 07:01:57 ... some people worry that it isn't optimal for the browsers to fix things up 07:02:03 plinss__ has joined #tp 07:02:07 howcome has joined #tp 07:02:11 unl_ has joined #tp 07:02:13 ... meanwhile the HTML WG points out there is a need to look at broken stuff 07:02:14 dino has joined #tp 07:02:16 fsasaki has joined #tp 07:02:20 shawn has joined #tp 07:02:21 ... and browsers compete in this area 07:02:30 davy has joined #tp 07:02:34 Karen has joined #tp 07:02:39 IanJ has joined #tp 07:02:46 josema has joined #tp 07:02:53 ... aphorism here is "specify what goes on the wire, and not what processors do" 07:03:01 mamol has joined #tp 07:03:10 ... and "liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you produce" 07:03:21 smedero has joined #tp 07:03:27 raman has joined #tp 07:03:33 Postel's law afaict 07:03:34 renato has joined #tp 07:03:35 plh has joined #tp 07:03:36 ... origianl 3 page HTML spec says ignore unknown tags 07:03:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_Principle 07:03:39 ... to allow for extensible 07:03:49 s/origianl/original/ 07:03:49 kaz has joined #tp 07:04:04 s/ble/bility/ 07:04:11 +SteveH 07:04:21 ... mail servers didn't get worse because errors got fixed 07:04:27 ... but that is different with browsers 07:04:31 dbaron has joined #tp 07:04:50 ... people don't fix broken markup for stuff from long ago 07:04:59 "race to the bottom" 07:04:59 ... casued a race to the bottom in the browser world 07:05:00 + +1.857.928.aaaa 07:05:12 s/casued/caused/ 07:05:22 mscottm has joined #tp 07:05:29 zakim, aaaa is Ralph 07:05:29 +Ralph; got it 07:05:31 ... the motivating factor for putting stuff on web 07:05:42 ... a browser rewards a designer for putting stuff up 07:05:56 Steeeven has joined #tp 07:06:01 klaus has joined #tp 07:06:15 -Ralph 07:06:24 smedero has joined #tp 07:06:33 ... you don't get reward until you've got it exactly right in the non-fixup world 07:06:43 remote (_not_ local) attendees are welcome to tune into audio broadcast http://media.w3.org:8000/tpac-2008.ogg 07:06:56 ... validators work by liking you to have everything right 07:07:12 ... validator will reject you until you gget it all rrright 07:07:38 ... using a validator, you are only motivated if you want correctness 07:07:45 gsnedders has joined #tp 07:07:45 without a DOCTYPE you get quirks mode, not standards mode :p 07:07:52 -MeetingRoom 07:07:52 ... in general using a validator is too hard 07:07:58 ... a browser is easier to keep happy 07:08:04 ... can we fix that? 07:08:06 +Riviera_a 07:08:12 zakim, riviera_a is MeetingRoom 07:08:12 +MeetingRoom; got it 07:08:23 Jean-Gui has joined #tp 07:08:25 ... maybe not with a yes/no, but with a score, and ideas on how to raise the score 07:08:38 ... 46/100 is your score 07:09:06 audio broadcast available provided we consistent electricity... 07:09:09 ... people tell me that browser manufacturers don't want to give users errors 07:09:20 ... but suppose the browser knew which was my pages 07:09:24 ... and only told me of errors there 07:09:34 users more likely to be impressed by better functionality from a clean page; an arbitrary score gives them no business benefit 07:09:38 ... or a simple error symbol, without popup 07:09:56 DanC_lap has joined #tp 07:10:19 ... view source ought to give advice 'this is the cleaned up version' 07:10:19 SteveH has joined #tp 07:10:29 arun has joined #tp 07:10:43 ... so that adopting others code will always improve the quality 07:10:52 s/others/others'/ 07:10:57 solving the halting problem might actually be more difficult than rocket science, dunno :) 07:11:10 ... save as should correct the code too 07:11:15 ... servers as well 07:11:26 ... Apache goes out improperly configured 07:11:38 ... to deliver unknown filetypes as text/plain 07:11:56 ... this may be my fault from the original CERN server 07:12:16 ... but server manufacturers, please don't assume a mimetype 07:12:18 Is an extension being told? 07:12:20 marcos has joined #tp 07:12:38 ... have all mimetypes for standard filetypes that we already know about, in W3C recs 07:13:02 JimBiggs has joined #tp 07:13:26 ... adding new mimetypes is a major issue for adding new applications on the web 07:13:42 judy has joined #tp 07:13:46 ... give a 500 if you don't know the mimetype 07:13:50 Can't they just send no content-type header? 07:13:53 ... so you spot it and can fix it 07:14:02 jallan has joined #tp 07:14:03 mime-support: /etc/mime.types # file a bug on that package in Debian for new mimes and all apps should use them 07:14:05 ... some people suggest that Apache could tidy what gets served 07:14:06 Roy wants to dump HTTP in the new version of apache, iirc 07:14:12 ... so why do this? 07:14:33 ... while the browsers will go on accepting invalid markup 07:14:36 gsnedders, Apache could but they don't ATM by default 07:14:39 marcos, what do you mean 'dump HTTP'? And who's the Roy that you refer to? 07:14:44 ... well, we are wading waist deep in these errors 07:14:55 ... and as things are going in 10 years we will be shoulder deep 07:15:03 ... so this is not for us but for the future 07:15:11 "think of the children" 07:15:14 unl has joined #tp 07:15:17 ... we built the web on top of the internet 07:15:17 Arun, roy fielding. He came up with a better alternative to http 07:15:33 danbri has joined #tp 07:15:34 Marcos, aaah, Roy Fielding of REST fame. 07:15:42 ... the interface to sockets hasn't changed 07:15:48 .. it is a clean itnerface 07:15:51 Arun, of Apache fame 07:15:54 :) 07:15:55 http is a layer on that 07:16:07 ... the web is a function that takes a URI and delivers content/meaning 07:16:14 ArtB has joined #tp 07:16:14 mauro has joined #tp 07:16:21 Marcos, well, and HTTP too for that matter 07:16:29 alexmog has joined #tp 07:16:34 Waka, yes 07:16:52 Steeeven has left #tp 07:16:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waka_(protocol) 07:16:57 Steeeven has joined #tp 07:17:11 maxf has joined #tp 07:17:15 ddahl has joined #tp 07:17:22 tbl: If we can work towards a future where people produce clean pages 07:17:29 ... it will make the future web easier to use 07:17:35 jcantera has joined #tp 07:17:50 ... it is about being simple, realising that the future is longer than the past 07:17:56 This is silly, there is little correlation between markup and DOM. Create a clean DOM, forget about clean markup. 07:17:57 ... 15 years of legacy pages will be as nothing soon 07:18:12 15 years ago? I was only just one year old then! 07:18:25 I don't remember 15 years ago! 07:18:28 LOL gsnedders 07:18:41 ... we are celbrating 20 years of the first memo about the web in March 07:19:01 ... that doesn't seem long ago, but some of you weren't even born then 07:19:08 adrianba has joined #tp 07:19:22 raman has joined #tp 07:19:50 ... people say "I understand that there is incredible talent in producing the HTML spec more modular" and several have some up in the last few days 07:19:52 to volunteer 07:19:55 ... thanks! 07:20:15 Al has joined #tp 07:20:27 fabrice has joined #tp 07:20:48 ... so question - should we, can we, clean up the web? 07:21:04 ... thanks for listiening 07:21:07 ed has joined #tp 07:21:13 steveB: questions, then panel 07:21:23 ... please be brief 07:21:36 Ian: Ian Hickson 07:21:37 [Ian Hickson, google] 07:21:49 ... a lot of what Tim asks for, such as save as is already there 07:21:56 Bert has joined #tp 07:21:58 ... CSS errors, some HTML errors 07:22:04 Tim: By default? 07:22:07 Ian: Yes 07:22:14 Tim: I want to see that 07:22:15 MikeSmith has joined #tp 07:22:25 Ann: Anne Bassetti, Boeing 07:22:31 ... where are the slides? 07:22:41 rigo has joined #tp 07:22:45 youenn has joined #tp 07:22:57 Tim: The notes I used I will post 07:23:05 many thanks Steven!! 07:23:06 s/Anne/Ann 07:23:16 AnnBassetti has joined #tp 07:23:20 Topic: Web Architecture, Blueprint or Recipe 07:23:20 scribenick: karl 07:23:22 can we please have more light on stage ? 07:23:30 +1 07:23:31 ---- 07:23:32 Topic: Web Architecture, Blueprint or Recipe 07:23:38 SteveB: Thanks to Chris Lilley for putting together the program 07:24:10 amit has joined #tp 07:24:19 Search for "score at the end of validation" at http://www.w3.org/2004/03/plenary-minutes 07:24:34 chris introducing the topic 07:24:37 ChrisL: Why this panel? 07:24:43 Laura has joined #tp 07:24:58 matt has joined #tp 07:25:04 The idea of giving feedback for the quality of Web pages, as a byproduct of validation has been thought of many times before. I remembered suggesting this 4 years ago. 07:25:20 arun has joined #tp 07:25:22 ChrisL: There is a lot of discussions around Web architecture. 07:25:42 ... It doesn't impose many many things, it encourage to do things. 07:25:50 rrsagent, make minutes 07:25:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html Steeeven 07:26:08 ... Where are we today? What needs to be done today? 07:26:17 Architecture of the World Wide Web, Volume One -> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/ 07:26:21 unl_ has joined #tp 07:26:34 ... I invite each speakers to introduce and speak about the topic. The goal is to have a discussion more than a presentation. 07:26:35 smedero has joined #tp 07:26:58 timbl has joined #tp 07:27:09 anne: working for Opera Software, involved in HTML 5, there are some clashes with Web architecture. 07:27:49 hsivonen: consulting for Mozilla, I see the Web as the public Web that people can access. The resources you can navigate publicly. 07:28:00 Henri: I define Web as the information space accessible to the public via a browser. 07:28:15 Blaz has joined #tp 07:28:18 ... If a mobile operator operates behind walls, this is not part of the web 07:28:42 FabGandon has joined #tp 07:28:43 plinss_ has joined #tp 07:28:48 ... If you use Web service on http but not using the Web browser. I don't see it as part of the web 07:28:56 ... same for Semantic Web 07:29:13 ... Web Architecture are not principles for the browsable web 07:29:15 "the browsable Web" 07:29:22 unl has joined #tp 07:29:51 csolc has joined #tp 07:30:02 normanw: I gave a second look at the Web architecture document. 07:30:10 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Oct/0096.html 07:30:25 arun has joined #tp 07:30:36 ... I still stand behind the document. many of the principles are SHOULd 07:30:50 ... because tehre might be good reasons to do in other ways 07:31:12 llynch has joined #tp 07:31:28 LarryM: I'm not part of the TAG, but was on the AB when the TAG was going on. 07:31:28 s/SHOUld/SHOULD/ 07:31:36 unl_ has joined #tp 07:31:37 s/tehre/there/ 07:31:41 s/going on/being chartered/ 07:31:50 G_Edgar has joined #tp 07:31:52 smedero has joined #tp 07:32:10 ... Part of my observations 07:32:11 +Ralph 07:32:34 arun has joined #tp 07:32:48 ... what's different between the Web of Today, and the Web Circa 1996 07:32:53 ... the Web has really changed 07:33:02 -Ralph 07:33:04 ... and what people think about the Web has changed 07:33:19 ... The W3C has not been leading but going off in another direction. 07:33:28 ... some corrections are necessary. 07:33:35 ... in 1996 it was about documents 07:33:45 + +87713aabb 07:33:54 ... but now there are plenty of applications with ajax, video, etc. 07:34:06 ... in 1996 it was mostly done by hand. 07:34:19 spark3 has joined #tp 07:34:23 ... but most content produced now is through cms, wiki, blogs, etc. 07:34:28 ... in database 07:34:53 ... the Web 96 is about publishing information 07:35:05 ... the web today is about interaction, social network 07:35:13 JR has joined #tp 07:35:28 ... There are hundreds of organizations developing standards, specifications now 07:35:32 unl has joined #tp 07:36:03 ... the focus of w3c on xml, semantic web, web services, and narrow indutries, It doesn't seem to match what the Web is 07:36:48 Larry: Quote from B. Disraeli "I'm their leader, so I must follow them." 07:37:09 ... The focus of Working groups are not really about leading the web 07:37:25 tlr has joined #tp 07:37:30 JR has left #tp 07:37:32 Norm has joined #tp 07:37:34 ... Instant messenging, video conference, etc. because people put these things on the web too 07:37:44 Steeeven has left #tp 07:37:53 ... If you call for more resources, you would have to drop some of the activities 07:37:59 adrianba has joined #tp 07:38:02 Schorsch has joined #tp 07:38:07 ... would it be very damaging if some of the things were dropped 07:38:14 fat_tony has joined #tp 07:38:14 smedero has joined #tp 07:38:33 plinss_ has joined #tp 07:38:37 Noah (IBM) 07:38:41 noah: I'm Noah mendelsson (ibm) working on the tag 07:38:43 [ for those not in mandelieu, note there is an audio broadcast available: http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/10/tpac2008-listen_discuss.html ] 07:38:50 arun has joined #tp 07:38:54 herve has joined #tp 07:39:00 renato_ has joined #tp 07:39:09 ... what is the importance of doing such work on architecture? 07:39:11 glazou has joined #tp 07:39:17 rigo has joined #tp 07:39:20 ... 2. is the tag effective doing that? 07:39:29 andrew has joined #tp 07:39:31 [for those in mandelieu, please listen to the live voice and don't torture our bandwidth any further, thank you] 07:39:39 glazou has joined #tp 07:39:44 ... It is important for the World wide Web to have longterm architecture. 07:39:51 ... I have worked for Lotus 07:40:15 ... and there are a lot of constraints when you deal with millions of users and deployment. 07:40:25 Kai has joined #tp 07:40:29 csolc has joined #tp 07:40:33 ... I have a lot of sympathy for html 5 people. It is not trivial. 07:40:54 ... The web has a lot of importance in a long term. 07:41:02 Noah: Few of us would fly in a plane built by a group with mantra "ship early and ship often." 07:41:13 vivien has joined #tp 07:41:29 ... It's easy to say I know my users, get out of my way. 07:41:30 Steeeve1 has left #tp 07:41:30 raman has joined #tp 07:41:35 raphael has joined #tp 07:41:35 Noah: Kludges compound./ 07:41:42 SeanP has joined #tp 07:41:44 ... but how does it work on a long term. 07:41:52 kbals has joined #tp 07:42:19 marcos_ has joined #tp 07:42:26 Noah: Kludges have a long life; people in HTML 5 WG could be doing more interesting things if architecture had not been violated by kludges years ago. 07:42:31 ... We have some stress between the TAG and some groups. Kludges have a long life. The compromises affect very often the people who made the compromise 07:42:56 kbals has joined #tp 07:42:57 JonathanJ has joined #tp 07:42:57 - +87713aabb 07:43:14 adrianba has joined #tp 07:43:27 ... The role of the TAG is to make sure that all concerns of the community 07:43:29 Steeeven has joined #tp 07:43:36 ... are represented. 07:43:46 ... I don't share henri's sivonen view 07:43:59 ... We can't just make decisions for small commmunity. 07:44:05 we have to include everyone 07:44:10 pauld has joined #tp 07:44:13 Noah on content sniffing: If I want to publish an XML fragment as plain text (e.g., as part of a bug database), if browsers do content sniffing (by default, automatically), then I can't do that anymore. 07:44:50 ... [sharing a mistake GET/POST in a development] 07:45:01 ... I was able to point to the TAG doc 07:45:07 ... to give the right thing to do 07:45:25 ChrisL: How many people have looked at the architecture document 07:45:43 ... How many people have looked at the TAG findings 07:46:00 ... How many people disagree with the TAG document 07:46:06 Noah was referring to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/whenToUseGet.html "URIs, Addressability, and the use of HTTP GET and POST 07:46:06 " 07:46:21 ChrisL: How many people have told the tag they disagree? 07:46:38 From here it was about 50/50 on whether anyone had read the architecture document or a TAG finding. 07:46:39 kbals has joined #tp 07:46:49 +??P1 07:46:52 ChrisL: How the Web content is edited with regards to you. 07:46:52 raphael has joined #tp 07:46:53 polls: how many have read the arch doc? (most? 2/3rds?) how many have read a finding (half?) how many have found something they disagree with? (20ish) how many told the TAG? (19ish) 07:47:10 [many hands raised for the above questions. was not in a position to assess the percentages.] 07:47:11 plinss_ has joined #tp 07:47:15 renato has joined #tp 07:47:17 hsivonen: there are 4 browsers. 07:47:25 JonathanJ has joined #tp 07:47:29 s/4 browsers/4 top browsers 07:47:36 ... at a given point in time, the interoperable platform 07:47:39 arun has joined #tp 07:47:57 ... The web is what implements this interoperable platform 07:48:04 maxf has left #tp 07:48:07 henry: The platform is expanding. The more of the browsers that implement a feature, the more it becomes part of the platform. 07:48:20 larryM: I object to caracterize the Web by only the 4 top browsers 07:48:27 dsr has joined #tp 07:48:33 larryM: (e.g., browsers in internet cafes in Africa) 07:48:41 [applause] 07:48:46 ... in Africa, in a cafe, you will find different version of the products, lot older and it is part of the web 07:48:46 maxf has joined #tp 07:49:04 timbl: We have discussions about the scope of the Web 07:49:05 arun_ has joined #tp 07:49:08 ... on the TAG 07:49:11 glazou has joined #tp 07:49:14 plinss__ has joined #tp 07:49:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:49:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html JonathanJ 07:49:25 ... the TAG was created because WGs asked for it 07:49:30 timbl has joined #tp 07:49:32 ... It was a service community 07:49:39 mamol has joined #tp 07:49:48 smedero_ has joined #tp 07:50:00 ... initially, a lot of questions were back logs questions 07:50:15 dsr has joined #tp 07:50:19 ... the tag has been doing writing on the things which are in between the specs 07:50:25 raman has joined #tp 07:50:26 jeanne has joined #tp 07:50:28 ... and were not really defined somewhere 07:50:37 unl_ has joined #tp 07:50:49 ... The TAG also tried to connect groups together when they had conflicting reqs 07:50:51 claudio has joined #tp 07:51:17 timeless has joined #tp 07:51:21 TimBL Should be asked the question "Define the Web" he did not answer it 07:51:28 Noah: The value of one large network is greater of the value of two small networks 07:51:35 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfes_Law 07:52:04 ... if everybody ignores the GET/POST, we would not be able to write crawlers anymore 07:52:14 ... We can call Web whatever we want 07:52:25 ... but we should look at use cases 07:52:50 JonathanJ has left #tp 07:53:00 Web arch definition of Web: "The World Wide Web (WWW, or simply Web) is an information space in which the items of interest, referred to as resources, are identified by global identifiers called Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI)." 07:53:05 JimBiggs has joined #tp 07:53:09 Karen has joined #tp 07:53:56 arun_: I perfectly accept that the Web is larger than the browsable web 07:54:06 ... we find in the real world 07:54:41 Many of the "mobile" people treat the URI as an identifier with which one can obtain a *representation* of an underlying resource. Many people gloss over this "representation" idea. 07:54:55 arun_: I am willing to accept the proposition that the web is larger than what browsers render. 07:54:55 ... A lot of the popular APIs use indeed GET, that do not block of developing crawlers. That is not a good point. 07:55:00 arun_: I agree with Noah's point about GET/POST, but a lot of popular APIs use GET for state-modifying operations. I don't agree with NOah's example of crawlers (those URIs are cordoned off). ... 07:55:04 Jean-Gui has joined #tp 07:55:14 arun has joined #tp 07:55:16 jallan_ has joined #tp 07:55:27 rahu1 has joined #tp 07:55:33 Ralph has joined #tp 07:55:38 ... we can't change the system 07:55:47 arun_: the arch doc provides good counsel, but when people build, e.g., bad APIs, you still have to deal with it. 07:55:51 .... you have to build the system in a way where you adjust 07:55:53 smedero has joined #tp 07:56:06 judy has joined #tp 07:56:33 s/the system in a way where you adjust/ in a way where you adjust to the system/ 07:56:42 arun: I think that some of the panelists have conceded certain incompatibilities; I'd like more reconciliation. 07:56:43 renato has joined #tp 07:57:06 noah: some of the arch documents can be mutable other time 07:57:14 Noah: One of the rules the arch doc can serve is as a guide of issues to raise before the community over time 07:57:20 ... If you are using GET the normal go for it 07:57:32 ... if you have a good reason to modify something 07:57:37 ... then ask for a change 07:57:52 Larry: The architecture document is not an implementation guide 07:57:57 JonathanJ has joined #tp 07:57:59 larry masinter: the arch doc is not an implementation guide. A standard is not a description of the real world. 07:58:17 renato has joined #tp 07:58:21 ... You have to deal with indeed broken implementations, but that does not mean you should do an architecture which is broken 07:58:51 ... Architecture guidelines depend on the things which evolve in time 07:58:56 larry: The standard describes what should be. I think it is a fallacy that the standard also include the implementation guidelines; implementation advice changes over time. 07:59:08 larry: the URI standard does not have a limit on URI length; but every implementation has a limit. 07:59:20 adrianba has joined #tp 07:59:20 larry: The implementations change over time; the standard needs to be stable. 08:00:14 Sniffing to work around bugs is just one reason for sniffing, and something we wish we didn't have to do. But still want to sniff the context, to adapt to its particular needs. 08:00:19 larry: There was a separation between content, protocol, and reference. 08:00:23 mamol has joined #tp 08:00:26 larry: HTTP not tied to HTML, or vice versa 08:00:26 08:00:46 larry: so if html were broken, maybe we could have a different type; the protocol allows that. 08:00:54 anne: that's still true 08:01:07 larry: but it seems like every feature we want needs to go into html5, the only content type 08:01:11 chris: that's not entirely true. 08:01:14 juansequeda has joined #tp 08:01:20 chris: Lots of people read html in email clients, for example 08:01:58 Kai has left #tp 08:02:07 larry: we are breaking orthogonality (and making an architectural mistake) if we focus on one type of user agent. 08:02:11 anne: I don't think this is happening. 08:02:25 anne: There are different "classes of products" (a term used in the QA Framework) 08:02:35 dbaron has joined #tp 08:02:47 larry: does anybody here work for or with a mail user agent that interprets HTML. 08:02:54 (A number of hands go up) 08:02:58 Anne: I do. 08:03:31 hsivonen: on the topic of violating architecture. it doesn't really matter if any groups claim authority 08:03:37 Schorsch has joined #tp 08:03:47 ... this WG doesn't have the power to make people stop doing wrong things 08:04:02 hsivonen: emailing to the tag and discussing right/wrong doesn't help. People still do things. 08:04:13 ... people out there are still doing mistakes and you have to deal with that 08:04:37 amy has joined #tp 08:04:40 ChrisL: Not a question of authority...web arch says "if you do X, there are consequences." The consequences don't go away if people don't follow the advice; they multiple. 08:04:42 aaronlev has joined #tp 08:05:25 MichaelC has joined #tp 08:05:26 ChrisL: Mechanism to stop transmission of state also stops other uses (e.g., can't share URIs with session id info in them). 08:05:37 hsivonen: the purpose of standards is to document what needs to be implemented 08:05:44 ... so there will be interoperability 08:05:44 ...based on what is already out there. 08:05:51 ... if there are n browsers 08:06:14 ... the standards should give guidance so that the n+1 browser can implement real world use case 08:06:22 hsivonen: little point in writing a science fiction document that, if implemented, creates a piece of software that doesn't work.k 08:06:25 ... no point writing Science Fiction document 08:06:26 s/work.k/work. 08:06:29 CWilso has joined #tp 08:06:41 hsivonen: standards show lower cost of implementation. 08:06:45 s/show/should 08:06:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:06:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html JonathanJ 08:07:04 dape has joined #tp 08:07:19 (more than 3, ivan) 08:07:30 Noah: We should have discussions (like role of text/plain) within the entire community. 08:07:44 TBL: A protocol _is_ science fiction. 08:08:01 I see raman frst on the q then three folk on the other side at the mike 08:08:05 TBL: You define a protocol so that nodes on the net can talk to each other (e.g., give me articles in a newsgroup). 08:08:18 renato has joined #tp 08:08:24 q? 08:08:24 TBL: When you define the protocol, you define the sets of states that the nodes can go through, and the messages, and you go through some math. 08:08:45 (TBL goes on about usenet protocol) 08:09:21 TBL: The point I'm making about protocol design is that it gives a set of rules, and it says "If you implement the rules, you get some properties." That's what a protocol does. IF you do X, THEN you get Y properties. 08:09:33 s/protocol does/protocol specification does/ 08:09:55 TBL: You put forward your spec and say "does anybody want to play in this?" 08:10:22 TBL: People put out protocols, and by "joining the club," you helped the system achieve the desired goals. 08:10:24 TBL: That works. 08:10:39 TBL: Now on the web we have a lot of legacy data, and it's valuable to document that. 08:10:46 ddahl has joined #tp 08:10:57 TBL: But we need to be careful about not losing the vision of protocol specification. 08:11:30 TBL: Someone who shall remain nameless repeats Wittgenstein's statement "Meaning is use." 08:11:41 TBL: But that's not the case with protocol....the protocol makes it fact. 08:12:51 TBL: We should acknowledge that we shoud look back, but we should NOT define spec writing as descriptive. Spec writing is prescriptive. If people don't follow the protcol in the future, we have the right to go after them and say "Excuse me, you joined the club and are expected to follow the rules." 08:13:58 gsnedders_ has joined #tp 08:14:08 Raman (Google): There was a point in this conversation when we were talking about the definition of the Web. 08:14:22 Raman: Henri's characterization explains his reasoning. 08:14:31 Raman: Larry said the web was more than what top browsers do. 08:14:39 arun has joined #tp 08:14:43 Raman: Arun gave some slack about that it might be more than what browsers do. 08:15:07 Raman: Tim, can you say clearly what you think the Web is. 08:15:12 steph has joined #tp 08:15:30 TBL: I did both. We have to acknowledge the past, but we are, very importantly, designing for the future. We are designing, not documenting. 08:16:05 TBL: Web is "humanity connected by technology" (the broader definition) 08:16:15 TBL: Narrow definition: The function map, of URIs to meaning. 08:16:40 Daniel-Park has joined #tp 08:16:49 raman has joined #tp 08:17:07 s/ Wittgenstein's statement/[a statement from Wittgenstein] 08:17:22 renato has joined #tp 08:17:49 Larry: I am more interested in what W3C should do operationally than a principled definition of the Web; and I think W3C should do more than just what browsers do. 08:18:11 Larry: I prefer "humanity connected by technology, but with a focus on what has traditionally been the Web." 08:19:00 David Baron (Mozilla): I wanted to make a few points about how much the specs need to talk about what's actually out there. 08:19:08 +Ralph 08:19:17 dbaron: Browser vendors need this to keep cost of entry to enter and stay in the browser market as feasible. 08:19:30 -Ralph 08:19:34 ... we can't work by ourselves 08:19:38 ...there is so much reverse engineering to do, we can't do it alone. We need to pool our efforts in a standards body. 08:19:43 ... we need to join and share our resources. 08:19:57 dbaron: I hope W3C is a forum for that type of standardization. 08:20:10 klaus has joined #tp 08:20:27 Norm: I think that it's a healthy tension between real world/ world as we'd like it to be. 08:20:42 Ann: Old browsers are not just used in Africa; they are used in big companies, too. 08:21:02 Ann: We are stuck with old browsers since apps were written that depend on those browsers. 08:21:18 Ann: Three pieces of the pie: those who are defining architecture, those who are using the architecture. 08:22:06 SallyC has joined #tp 08:22:08 Ann: Interop is much more important than the next "whizz-bang" thing; we won't get there for a while. 08:22:32 Noah: Some of my best successes in using webarch is in discussions with people in my company. 08:22:48 Noah: In many cases, I've found these findings, etc. of great value in talking with implementers. 08:22:53 (and not just spec writers) 08:23:00 koalie has joined #tp 08:23:11 Ann: Has TAG written a "top 10 things to do"? That might be helpful. 08:23:22 For what it's worth, a lot of the reverse engineering I referred to is *about* improving interoperability. 08:23:22 Murray Maloney (unaffiliated) 08:24:07 Murray: The web is a gift 08:24:18 MM: Among the things I learned in kindergarten is "polity." The Web is a gift. It's a paradigm-shifting change. The world has changed as a result in 20 years. We should be happy about contributing to that and making the world a better place. 08:25:50 MM: I'm a survivor of an airplane crash. 50 people died in the crash, in 1982. Sometimes we don't need to rationalize too the browser vendors, or to the people in the higher echelons of the HTML WG why we need something. 08:25:57 fumi has joined #tp 08:26:04 ...so if Boeing says "we need something" you should listen to them. 08:26:10 ...it's really important that their systems work. 08:26:21 ...it's really important that I can get to my bank account using my windows box. 08:26:24 ...but the web is broken. 08:26:33 ...there's one Web, and _I_ am a Web browser. 08:26:44 ...I've been reading markup since the 80s 08:26:52 ...and I can see in my head how it should look with a style sheet. 08:27:04 ...your browsers make it convenient for me, but it's not YOUR Web. It's everyone's Web. 08:27:27 ...it's the Web of the people in Africa, or South America, or any place with a slow network that can't deal with loads of javascript. 08:27:33 ...please just make the damn thing work. 08:27:43 Anne: I'd say that we are in violent agreement here. 08:27:58 Anne: Part of the HTML 5 effort started in 2004 due to huge lack of interop among browsers. 08:28:20 ...we want to improve interop by defining a common way of interpreting what's out there. 08:28:31 ...this would solve some of the problems Boeing, and you, are facing. 08:28:41 chaals has joined #tp 08:28:42 Murray: My impression is that most of the browsers are doing lots of things wrong./ 08:28:57 Murray: I may have this wrong, but what HTML 5 seems to be doing, is codifying errors. 08:29:18 hsivonen: If you are restricted to running IE6, then shouldn't we be doing just that in order to interoperate with your browsers? 08:29:20 [some applause] 08:29:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:29:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html JonathanJ 08:29:48 sylvaing has joined #tp 08:30:02 Larry: If you are going to document the past, write down how to write HTML that works ok in IE6. Help the millions of people who write HTML. 08:30:44 FabGandon has left #tp 08:30:49 renato has joined #tp 08:30:57 TBL: When you define a protocol, you define the rules for each side: how to make a server work, and how to make a browser work. What you do is write the rules (perhaps in separate docs) and you demonstrate that stuff will work. I like specs where you can define things mathematically. 08:31:25 renato has joined #tp 08:31:34 TBL: The HTML 5 is particularly targeted at browser vendors, and I know that there has been a cry for a version (e.g., generated) targeting authors. 08:31:46 ...good point that there are a lot more of those [authors]. 08:31:57 ...and I've heard movement in that direction to make HTML 5 two specs. 08:32:07 ...let's ensure that when you put the two specs together, the system works. 08:32:17 IanJ, BIG BIG thanks for taking over the scribing 08:32:21 SteveB: Thank you, panel. Let's continue the dialog at W3C, this week in hallways. 08:32:52 SallyC has left #tp 08:33:14 arun has joined #tp 08:33:14 plinss_ has joined #tp 08:33:28 +1 Karl. amazing to watch Ian decode TimBL in real-time. 08:33:42 +1, amazing (ian, is) 08:34:02 smedero has joined #tp 08:34:34 plinss_ has joined #tp 08:40:21 mpohja has joined #tp 08:41:01 amit has joined #tp 08:42:01 we'd like to ask people to fill out a questionnaire on TP2009 - whether they'd likely be able to attend, stay at the hotel, and if charging a fee would be workable http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/100/TPAC2009-attend/ 08:42:57 hrm: "You're not allowed to see this questionnaire." 08:43:04 member only? 08:44:01 ed has joined #tp 08:44:09 anyone w member access should be able to answer it 08:44:20 ahh, thanks amy. 08:47:29 -??P1 08:47:46 unl has joined #tp 08:47:48 +??P1 08:49:21 smedero has joined #tp 08:49:23 plinss_ has joined #tp 08:50:26 zakim, ??p1 is markh 08:50:26 +markh; got it 08:50:40 mauro has joined #tp 08:51:03 jallan_ has joined #tp 08:51:06 shellac has joined #tp 08:52:19 jeanne2 has joined #tp 08:52:32 scribe: jeanne2 08:53:09 SB: Welcome back 08:53:41 marcos has joined #tp 08:53:48 SLH:Doing a demo session with a BOF session at lunch 08:54:05 ARIA stands for Accessible Rich Internet Applications 08:54:21 Norm has joined #tp 08:54:31 mchampion has joined #tp 08:54:38 it works with AJAX and other technologies to provide information on name, role and state to assistive technologies 08:55:25 Assistive technologies help people with disabilities use the web. 08:55:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:55:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html JonathanJ 08:55:56 JonathanJ has joined #tp 08:56:01 SF: Steve Faulker, showing JAWS (a popular screen reader) with a slider control. 08:56:16 arun has joined #tp 08:56:29 [JAWS speaking] 08:56:51 unl_ has joined #tp 08:56:53 SallyC has joined #tp 08:57:18 With non-ARIA slider, the listener is told that they are interacting with a button by pressing it. You can't press a button, you have to move it horizontally with a mouse. 08:57:40 [demo of a ARIA Slider control with JAWS] 08:57:43 SallyC has left #tp 08:57:53 AnnBassetti has joined #tp 08:58:21 SF: JAWS announces the name of the control, directions to use it, and the values as it is moved. 08:58:34 SF: Example of a Tab Pane 08:58:50 [demo of non-ARIA tab with JAWS] 08:59:14 FabGandon has joined #tp 08:59:27 SF: Without ARIA, the assistive technology doesn't know that the tab has focus. 09:00:25 [demo with ARIA] 09:00:59 SF: Example of a tree navigation control 09:01:12 [demo without and with ARIA] 09:01:24 marcos has joined #tp 09:01:39 ht has joined #tp 09:01:54 SF: It is using attributes mapped to the API which is picked up by the AT and JAWS understands that the widget has a role and communicates the state. 09:02:05 htt has joined #tp 09:03:01 SLH: There will be a BOF table at lunch where you can ask questions. Work on WAI-ARIA is done by the Protocols and Formats Working Group. 09:03:09 scribenick: ivan 09:03:13 merci Jeanne! 09:03:15 scribe: ivan 09:03:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:03:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html JonathanJ 09:03:28 Topic: effects of CMS on the Web 09:03:32 najib has joined #TP 09:03:51 shawn: cms systems represent a difference in the authoring practices of the past 09:03:54 ... most cms systems spit out dirty code 09:03:55 alexmilowski has joined #tp 09:04:34 ... this session: how development of cms systems impact what we do here, the future, authoring guidelines, browsers, etc 09:06:15 gsnedders_ has joined #tp 09:06:43 jose alonso (alias josema): work at ctic in spain, fellow at w3c for egov work 09:07:03 ... today i wear my institute's hat 09:07:05 ... i will show you brief statistics on practice 09:07:15 ... as i work on egov, the examples come from there mainly 09:07:20 Jean-Gui has joined #tp 09:07:42 ... i ran some tools we have at the isntitute checking and describing sites of european governments 09:08:07 steve has joined #tp 09:08:15 ... sample: common portals of europe 09:08:44 Laura has joined #tp 09:08:56 ... most of the tools are very spread, custom developments, general cms systems 09:09:06 ... it is a spread market 09:09:19 timbl has joined #tp 09:09:20 ... in terms of code, it is better than expected 09:09:30 ... validity of code is low, but better than, say, opera study 09:09:59 hlee7 has joined #tp 09:10:11 ... we found a lot of different attributes that we did not know yet :-0 09:10:17 ... some rss streams getting into the html content:-) 09:10:17 ... we ran automatic tests on accessibility 09:10:30 timbl_ has joined #tp 09:10:36 ... these are only automatic tests, very low level of accessibility 09:10:53 ... it is improving but if you go to AA (standard in Europe), most of the pages fail 09:11:11 ... in terms of forms, they are doing better 09:11:54 ... there is an improvement in code, lots more to be done in design 09:12:07 adrianba has joined #tp 09:12:38 ... repeating title is a typical case 09:12:38 only 20% use headings correctly 09:12:39 .... mobile o.k. tests were run 09:12:54 ... we issue requests with the w3c user agent, no web site responded the way we expected 09:13:09 This has lots to do with the issue on the previous session 09:13:15 ... we think we have to fix this 09:13:29 raphael has joined #tp 09:13:47 ... the web site managers the earlier they are trained on cms tools the better code they can produce 09:13:58 libby has joined #tp 09:14:45 Kai Scheppe, Deutche Telecom: DT consists of a variety of companies (T mobile, T online is now product and innovation) 09:14:51 ... an overview of 'our world' 09:14:52 unl has joined #tp 09:15:00 darobin has joined #tp 09:15:02 taki has joined #tp 09:15:09 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 09:15:11 shawn has joined #tp 09:15:49 ... one thing a cms system gives you is to propagate changes quickly, simultaneous work, versioning, creation of webn contents for non professionals 09:15:51 "CI"? 09:16:05 ... we have a template based mechanism 09:16:06 ... you can quickly create a large number of sites 09:16:11 ... cms is not an HTML editor 09:16:19 josema has joined #tp 09:16:25 ... it is a template mechanism for mass production 09:16:39 ... we integrate content from the outside of the system, which can be challenging 09:17:01 ... we trade flexibility 09:17:01 ... maintaining a large system is another challenge 09:17:04 josema's slides: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/CMS_CTIC/ 09:17:12 Kai's: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/CMS_DT/ 09:17:26 josema, can you try to get the presenters to use a larger font? 09:17:53 s/josema, can you try to get the presenters to use a larger font?// 09:17:58 unl_ has joined #tp 09:18:19 judy has joined #tp 09:18:59 (scribe refers to Kai's slide instead of copying them:-) 09:19:58 Kai: time to market often takes precedence 09:20:02 timbl has joined #tp 09:20:02 Al has joined #tp 09:20:12 ... editors are not programmers 09:20:34 ... automatioin is fine but editorial process should not be interrupted 09:20:58 unl has joined #tp 09:21:35 LarryM, Adobe: I was invited because i come from adobe... 09:22:04 .... the web today is not authored by hand (mainly) but it goes through systems that generate content from content that comes from other places 09:22:23 ... it is a great point of leverage, though it is difficult to get the word inot that community 09:23:03 josh o'connor: 09:24:12 cms are tools that allow to manage complexity for a site 09:24:34 ... what is wrong? they can be complex and badly designed 09:24:59 ... often inaccessible back end, so they cannot be used by people using assistive techologies 09:25:05 terraces has joined #tp 09:25:21 ... quality wrong is sloppy, usability and accessibility is often poor 09:25:38 ... lack of interaction with users particularly with people with disabilities 09:25:58 ... ordinary people are just not technical 09:26:05 ... lack of knowledge all around 09:26:21 can we expect the user to understand all this stuff? No and we should not 09:26:46 ... promotion of ATAG compliance would be a half way to push out accessible systems 09:26:56 ... accessibility and usability are part of good design 09:27:08 ... involving users in the development woudl be very good 09:27:14 ChrisL has joined #tp 09:27:40 richardschwerdtfe has joined #tp 09:28:02 ATAG= authoring tool accessiblity guidelines 09:28:10 gsnedders has joined #tp 09:29:09 chaals, opera: i think i agree with josh that making atag part of procurement stuff is important. 09:29:40 alexmilowski has joined #tp 09:29:51 Kai, could you elaborate on your experience these kind of decision? 09:29:51 Kai: the vendor decision was made on the way it would fit the business model and I am almost sure that the accessibility was not part of the decision 09:29:57 Mez has joined #tp 09:30:09 ... i figured at some point this should be done and legislation it would come 09:30:28 ... some people know that but companies as a whole I am not sure it is on their radar screen? 09:30:43 claudio has joined #tp 09:30:54 chaals: how much time would it take? 09:30:54 kai: 1-2 years... 09:31:25 sally, institute of blind, uk: let us not forget about the people who create the content and momst of the cms systems do not give tools for people with disabilities cannot use those tools 09:31:41 alexmilowski has joined #tp 09:31:58 shawn: by the way atag also covers that aspect, but yes 09:32:28 gorm has joined #tp 09:32:38 janine??: in the us cms system based is the whitehouse. gov which is an accessible site, managed by administrative people, non technical people 09:32:53 s/janine???/janina_sajka/ 09:33:26 ... Kai, you spoke about yuour company but what about your customers 09:33:52 Steeeve1 has joined #tp 09:33:59 kai: cms is a dumm system that generates code quickly, the people who generate the templates are those where you have to start 09:34:19 ... the system cannot generate code just becuase the system it better, it boils down to the users of the systems 09:34:25 s/dumm/dumn 09:34:40 spark3 has joined #tp 09:34:58 ... we incorporate tables of of other company, the company sells a full html page which is then embedded into the page 09:35:08 timbl has joined #tp 09:35:15 ... i am running a validator through the full portal to find those 09:35:34 ... but a lot of the stuff we do is automated, difficult to find 09:35:38 Phil has joined #tp 09:35:46 josh: a system could adopt some constraint based system that could improve the case 09:36:06 ... there are tools that are better, drupal and ??, for example, 09:36:12 CGI634 has joined #tp 09:36:18 ... there are systems out there, technology exists out there 09:36:27 taki has joined #tp 09:36:31 ?? == Joomla 09:36:35 renato has joined #tp 09:36:51 janina adds that the white house CMS is available under the GPL 09:37:14 gsnedders has joined #tp 09:37:22 ??? university of toronto: I agree with you, josh, there are many places when constraint can be put in 09:37:57 templates, accessibilit elsewhere, there is a huge strength in the cms way 09:37:57 ... they have a kind of power 09:37:58 I think the main issue is does the template designed with standards in mind 09:38:07 Hideki has joined #tp 09:38:10 brutzman has joined #tp 09:38:26 kai: let us not forget that it is a stupid software, the great majority of the systems out there do not have it 09:38:37 ... it boils down to people using the templates 09:38:45 josema: i agree with Kai 09:39:40 (sorry, scribe lost it at some point:-( 09:40:19 josh: it is interesting what kai said, but there are some systems that just out of the box shine, like drupal... 09:40:50 ... with accessible back end 09:40:50 ... that is the kind of things are we are talking about 09:40:51 jdaggett has joined #tp 09:40:54 ... humans are the weakest link in the process, that is true 09:41:05 larry: i think if you look from the cms's point of view, there are a large number of requirements, accessibility is one 09:41:10 timbl has joined #tp 09:41:25 ... accessibility is one area where content management is looking at carefully 09:41:34 ... other areas are also talked about like mobile where more attention would improve 09:41:55 ... we have to take a broader view of what the web is, and this is an aread where w3c can look at 09:42:11 Larry: expanding view of web into the entire ecosystem of creating content would be appropriate for w3c 09:43:01 phil archer: we talked about accessiblity, i wonder what kind of cms sytems could be added that would add microformat, rdfa, etc? 09:43:18 larry: there is a real opportunity there 09:43:51 josh: that is great, the core stuff should be done before the higher abstractions happen 09:44:38 marcos has joined #tp 09:45:03 al guilman: in the cms systems it is getting the things personalized with rules, there is a leverage opportunity these systems 09:45:35 ... it gives the possibility to adapt the use the rules at the right place and it help in cleaning up the web 09:46:07 s/guil/gil/ 09:46:08 jeremy carroll: one of the problems Kai seems to have is that the content that is generated is not accessible or not even good html but browsers show it 09:46:23 ... the cms should adapt stricter rules on what they are doing 09:46:49 ... they should send error message to the browsers instead of doing it and they should send error messages instead 09:47:07 kai: but we should proactively clean it up things 09:47:21 jeremy: while cleaning up the crap we should also stop producing 09:47:43 kai: the system managers would have to be convinced to be able to it... 09:48:01 josh: there has to be a greater awareness 09:48:04 CMS does not produce code by itself, it takes the template and the content created by the content editor. Most content editors know nothing about HTML and actually write the code using an editor provided by the CMS 09:48:08 unl_ has joined #tp 09:48:12 timbl has joined #tp 09:48:20 larry: a lot of times the info you need to provide, say, a caption is loss in the process 09:48:45 jdaggett_ has joined #tp 09:48:53 ... there is an opportunity to reexamine the workflow from the photographer up to the video and the page to preserve the information 09:49:18 kai: one of the thing that we use inside is to use the validators w3c provide 09:49:29 ... i have to explain a lot of things to my managers 09:49:45 ... but because of the complexity, but the speed is such that we need more automated tools 09:50:04 ... i combined a crawler with validators to find problems 09:50:28 fantasai has joined #tp 09:50:35 josema: what w3c could do? we should have more deployement of atag 09:50:53 ... but what can we learn from cms vendors on what they need? 09:50:53 ... we may be missing something there 09:50:57 .... i would love to learn more there 09:51:14 josh: i would like to see larger vendors use and support accesssibility more 09:51:17 timbl has joined #tp 09:51:28 ... the open source community has produced lots of good tools there 09:51:49 jdaggett has joined #tp 09:51:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:51:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html ivan 09:51:55 gsnedders has joined #tp 09:52:09 thx a lot ivan! 09:52:20 fantasai has left #tp 09:52:37 ScribeNick: dom 09:52:58 gsnedders has joined #tp 09:53:57 jdaggett has joined #tp 09:54:22 rigo has joined #tp 09:55:05 Rotan: [introducting lightning talks] 09:55:15 unl has joined #tp 09:55:15 ... questions should be lightning questions as well - at most 1 sentence 09:55:21 rotan++ 09:55:33 marcos has joined #tp 09:55:50 gsnedders has joined #tp 09:55:51 [Renato Iannella, NICTA, presenting on Social Networks Interoperability] 09:55:59 Renato: social networks interoperability has been a common theme of discussion this week 09:56:07 ... social networks are pretty much walled gardens 09:56:09 ... you have to reinvite your friends when you get in a new network 09:56:13 ... we're trying to see how we can build a community to reduce these walled gardens 09:56:21 ... also, social networks are driving the needs for new technologies 09:56:32 ... so we're talking about setting an XG to look at the big picture 09:56:41 ... in particular on topics around data and policy portability 09:56:46 unl_ has joined #tp 09:56:52 ... we're discussing setting up an XG charter 09:57:22 ... semantic web people, mobile and others in w3c, plus non-w3c contributors 09:57:31 ... W3C is organizing a workshop on the topic in January 09:57:35 ... another workshop during WWW2008 09:57:39 s/08/09 09:57:48 s/workshop/proposed workshop 09:57:48 noah has joined #tp 09:57:48 nick has joined #tp 09:58:25 @@@: is social network really a different application or a base for appliications? 09:58:40 Renato: there are different levels of social netowrks 09:58:48 s/netow/netwo/ 09:58:55 @@@2: What about Open Social? 09:59:05 s/@@@/Larry Masinter 09:59:08 Renato: they belong to the communities we would like to bring to our effort 09:59:44 PhilA: Can you reassure me you'll look at privacy questions? e.g. being able to remove your content from several places at once 09:59:59 Renato: I can't guarantee, but clearly a topic of interest to me 10:00:27 [Harry Halpin presenting on "Social Networking: is W3C ready?"] 10:01:05 SUZETTE2 has joined #tp 10:01:26 jdaggett has joined #tp 10:01:57 timbl_ has joined #tp 10:02:08 mcf has joined #tp 10:02:08 HH: lots of communities have been trying to address the problem of social networking and interoperability 10:02:08 ... e.g. dataportability 10:02:08 ... lots of grass roots communities working on this area 10:02:11 ... e.g. to build authentication/identity systems 10:02:13 ... like OpenId, OAuth, 10:02:15 ... outside of W3C 10:02:19 plinss_ has joined #tp 10:02:21 ... I don't think W3C can affort to ignore them 10:02:23 ... Also, W3C needs to look at how to address the problems of merging/querying social networks as social graphs 10:02:27 ... Some of these questions are being addressed in the semantic web stack 10:02:30 josema has joined #tp 10:02:33 unl has joined #tp 10:02:37 ... One of the big problems is about privacy 10:02:39 marcos has joined #tp 10:02:45 ... which requires trust and proof 10:03:01 jdaggett has joined #tp 10:03:02 ... But the SW ins't quite up to the task yet (?) 10:03:05 Liam has joined #tp 10:03:14 iheni has joined #tp 10:03:23 ... Also, there are a lot of social networks around the work - many you may not know about 10:03:32 ... we need to have them data driven and @@@-centered 10:04:09 DanBri: I've been involved in these discussions with others - we have created a public mailing list to continue and further these discussions 10:04:16 ... public-social-web-talk@w3.org 10:04:24 ArtB, Nokia: looks like very interesting work 10:04:44 ... what is the relationship of what you're trying to do with OpenWeb Foundation? 10:05:09 SallyC has joined #tp 10:05:11 ... also, if you're creating an XG, please go with the RF option 10:05:21 Harry: clearly we would go for the RF option 10:05:34 see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-social-web-talk/ 10:05:46 ... for Open Web Foundation, I think they started it to play as a harbor for the IPR/patent questions 10:05:49 (an incubator incubator....) 10:05:55 ... I think the W3C can play a more humble role in this space 10:06:10 ... in looking at policies questions, not only targeted at software questions 10:06:28 unl_ has joined #tp 10:06:45 [Andrew Arch, W3C, WAI domain, looking at Ageing issues and accessibility] 10:07:14 Andrew: 1/3rd of the population in Japan, and in many other countries, is more than 65 years old 10:07:36 we are very interested in social networking within big corporations as well 10:07:41 ... we've looking at over 150 studies of older users on-line, and they reported a wide diversity of requirements 10:07:47 ... partly due to experience or inexperience 10:08:14 ... cognitive issues are among the most reported issue 10:08:28 unl has joined #tp 10:08:59 ... most studies identify usability issues rather than technical issues in terms of accessibility 10:09:23 plinss_ has joined #tp 10:09:33 ... We have a BoF table to explore this further today 10:10:20 [Manuel Serrano, INRIA, "Hop, an Everyware Development Kit"] 10:10:48 MS: what language to use to develop an ubiquitous web application? 10:10:57 gsnedders has joined #tp 10:11:02 ... we have designed a HOP system that comes with a language and a runtime system 10:11:21 ... the idea is to re-use the Web as a virtual machine 10:11:26 plinss_ has joined #tp 10:11:32 ... HOP is fully compatible with the Web 10:11:49 ... we have added a broker in the general client/server/db scheme 10:12:08 ... typically the broker would be used to communicate between your device and the application 10:12:23 ... the broker serves also as a full-fledged web server 10:12:32 unl_ has joined #tp 10:13:01 ... this could be used e.g. to create a diffuse music player, where one device can be used to raise the volume on another device that plays music from yet another device 10:13:02 gsnedders has joined #tp 10:13:14 ... thanks to this broker that serves as central point 10:13:25 ... HOP is available under GPL, and is based on pure web technologies 10:13:44 http://hop.inria.fr 10:14:03 Rotan: the presentation you just watched is a single HTML File - it is worth looking at 10:14:12 ... HOP is quite impressive, I encourage you to look at it 10:14:38 [Dave Raggett, W3C/JustSystems, XBRL and the Semantic Web] 10:16:51 CGI634 has joined #tp 10:17:49 timbl has joined #tp 10:18:13 [Jeremy Carroll, TopQuadrant, "TopBraid Ensemble semantic web browser"] 10:18:13 JC: TopQuadrant is a Semantic Web company 10:21:13 Ken Laskey, MITRE: one of the things to take into account: we closed the uncertainty reasoning XG in March - there might be more work coming in there 10:21:25 ... I think this is relevant for you in case where the information is incomplete, etc 10:21:40 JC: [scribe missed answer] 10:21:44 DavidC has joined #tp 10:22:02 [Charles McCathieNevile, Opera, Standards API and Debuggers] 10:22:30 Chaals: We have developed DragonFly as a developer's helper - important for developers 10:22:39 unl has joined #tp 10:22:44 ... it is an open source tool, a widget, installed by default 10:22:52 mscottm has joined #tp 10:23:02 olgacaprotti has joined #tp 10:24:09 ... the architecture of Dragonfly allows to separate the watcher from the browser, e.g. debugging what's happening on a phone browser from a desktop browser 10:24:28 ... We think this should be standardized for the greater benefits of web developers 10:25:17 Josh_@@@ (timeless), Nokia: @@@ (missed comment) 10:25:41 SallyC has left #tp 10:25:43 Rotan: We will have another session at the end the day; slides will linked from the minutes 10:26:15 FabGandon has left #tp 10:26:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:26:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html JonathanJ 10:27:46 carlosI has joined #tp 10:28:30 dape_ has joined #tp 10:29:35 stefanoCrosta has joined #tp 10:42:44 s/Josh_@@@/Josh Soref/ 10:47:48 -markh 10:58:30 renato has joined #tp 11:03:33 mamol has joined #tp 11:08:55 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 11:12:17 JonathanJ has joined #tp 11:14:47 gsnedders has joined #tp 11:17:03 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 11:18:25 dino has joined #tp 11:20:22 adrianba has joined #tp 11:24:23 Laura has joined #tp 11:27:04 plinss_ has joined #tp 11:27:37 +??P1 11:28:37 zakim, ??p1 is markh 11:28:37 +markh; got it 11:29:00 Steeeven has joined #tp 11:29:13 unl has joined #tp 11:29:22 Hideki has joined #tp 11:30:18 nick has joined #tp 11:31:17 CharlieWiecha has joined #tp 11:31:53 jeanne has joined #tp 11:32:16 taki has joined #tp 11:33:31 herve has joined #tp 11:33:35 mchampion has joined #tp 11:33:56 amit has joined #tp 11:34:54 Lachy has joined #tp 11:35:25 SallyC has joined #tp 11:36:12 Lachy has joined #tp 11:37:01 noah has joined #tp 11:37:32 ArtB has joined #tp 11:38:43 fat_tony has joined #tp 11:39:37 youenn has joined #tp 11:39:44 davy has joined #tp 11:39:59 jallan_ has joined #tp 11:41:20 SeanP has joined #tp 11:42:19 mamol has joined #tp 11:42:50 arun has joined #tp 11:43:04 steph has joined #tp 11:44:01 raphael has joined #tp 11:44:03 gsnedders has joined #tp 11:44:15 najib has joined #tp 11:44:35 Liam has joined #tp 11:44:56 smedero has joined #tp 11:45:56 Vagner-br has joined #tp 11:46:02 danbri has joined #tp 11:46:50 mauro has joined #tp 11:47:48 anne has joined #tp 11:48:03 plh has joined #tp 11:48:06 dbaron has joined #tp 11:48:06 ChrisL has joined #tp 11:48:07 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 11:48:19 scribeNick: plh 11:48:37 Hyunjeong has joined #tp 11:48:39 Topic: MMI, VB and SCXML Demonstrations 11:48:40 CWilso has joined #tp 11:48:48 renato has joined #tp 11:48:55 marie has joined #tp 11:49:00 [Arun is doing his demo] 11:49:22 dino has joined #tp 11:49:30 phl, umm, Arun is NOT doing a demo 11:49:40 s/phl/plh 11:49:44 Rahul is doing his demo 11:49:45 glazou has joined #tp 11:49:55 richardschwerdtfe has joined #tp 11:49:57 test 11:49:57 Arun is digesting his lunch :) 11:50:05 s/doing his demo/showing a video of a demo/ 11:50:26 s/Arun/Raj Tumuluri/ 11:50:35 olivier has joined #tp 11:50:56 karl has joined #tp 11:51:04 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 11:51:14 myakura has joined #tp 11:51:52 arun has joined #tp 11:52:01 ed has joined #tp 11:52:06 shadi has joined #tp 11:52:09 plh, actually it is Rahul Akolkar that is doing a demo, and NOT Raj Tumuluri 11:52:16 jeffs has joined #tp 11:52:57 mscottm has joined #tp 11:53:19 NOW Raj Tumuluri *may* do a demo. 11:53:43 jeffs has joined #tp 11:53:45 s/Raj Tumuluri/Rahul Akolkar/ 11:53:59 andrew has joined #tp 11:54:01 raman has joined #tp 11:54:17 [Raj Tumuluri is now demonstrating Multimodal Interaction with SCXML, Voice, HTML, and Ink] 11:55:28 Al has joined #tp 11:55:53 arun has joined #tp 11:57:32 olgac_UH has joined #tp 11:57:40 Deborah: no time for question unfortunately, feel free to catch the presenters later one 11:57:54 s/one/on/ 11:57:55 marcos has joined #tp 11:58:53 gorm has left #tp 11:59:01 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 11:59:20 DanC_lap has joined #tp 11:59:39 scribeNick: dsr 12:00:10 rahul has joined #tp 12:00:16 shellac has joined #tp 12:00:58 arun has joined #tp 12:01:21 scribe: dsr 12:01:48 danbri has joined #tp 12:01:49 raman: I view the web as a democratic thing, it is about everybody coming together to share 12:01:54 ed has joined #tp 12:02:35 it takes more than 1, 2 or 4 browser vendors to do ensure democracy of the web. 12:03:06 It should be easy to create browser extensions for vocabularies. 12:03:51 If these become successful, then the extensions can become part of every browser. 12:03:51 Henry Sivonen: browsers present a dom tree 12:03:54 smedero has joined #tp 12:04:11 SVG, MathML, etc. are dom trees as far as the browser is concerned. 12:04:15 chaals has joined #tp 12:04:28 Today the common way excludes svg and mathml. 12:04:42 jeffs has left #tp 12:04:42 (on text/html) 12:05:01 On the client document.write doesn;t work with xml 12:05:52 We should add features while keeping html working, and hence we should extend html to include svg and mathml. 12:06:19 FabGandon has joined #tp 12:06:20 Kangchan has joined #tp 12:06:25 Browsers are forgiving of errors, and avoid the draconian error handling expected of xml. 12:06:27 Kai has joined #tp 12:06:45 gsnedders has joined #tp 12:06:51 danbri has joined #tp 12:06:57 (lost Herry's last point) 12:07:04 csma has joined #tp 12:07:07 unl_ has joined #tp 12:07:07 s/Herry/Henry/ 12:07:28 s/Henry/Henri/ 12:07:34 timbl has joined #tp 12:07:36 DavidC has joined #tp 12:08:02 Erik D. 12:08:23 Erik Dahlström, that is 12:08:27 Erika Dahlström 12:08:32 Erik describes the benefits of SVG 12:08:35 Ralph has joined #tp 12:08:57 smedero has joined #tp 12:09:26 Erik: exporting a fragment of SVG requires some care with current editors 12:09:35 klaus has joined #tp 12:10:33 ChrisL asks how many people are in WGs producing XML. 12:10:36 amit_ has joined #tp 12:11:28 How many people have used HTML and SVG in the same document? 12:11:37 judy has joined #tp 12:11:38 darobin has joined #tp 12:11:40 How many have found problems with SVG needing to be welformed? 12:12:19 Does any one have authoring tools that generate HTML? what about XHTML? 12:12:37 What about authoring tools for SVG? 12:12:55 what about tools that create a mix of HTML and SVG? 12:13:11 marcos has joined #tp 12:13:37 amit_ has joined #tp 12:14:05 Charlie: we need different strategies for deploying XML vocabularties to the browser 12:14:15 kaz has joined #tp 12:14:19 plugins are not very effective. 12:14:34 s/larties/laries/ 12:14:40 server-side rewriting is another possibility 12:14:46 gsnedders has joined #tp 12:15:04 marcos has joined #tp 12:15:17 If we had XBL support in all the clients, that would be helpful. 12:15:35 In the meantime, we can use JavaScript libraries to interpret the XML 12:15:55 SallyC has joined #tp 12:16:22 The ubiquity project is open source. 12:16:30 Ubiquity XForms open source project (Apache licensed): http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/ 12:17:13 martinmollema has joined #tp 12:17:36 Charlie: we are refactoring XForms into a series of bite sized specs. 12:17:45 AndrewR has joined #tp 12:18:11 (Charlie is talking at too high a bitrate for dsr to keep up) 12:18:30 brutzman has joined #tp 12:18:52 The ubiquity project makes good use of Ajax ... 12:19:05 MoZ has joined #tp 12:19:08 mamol has joined #tp 12:19:11 Raman: this is actually interesting. 12:19:41 What new things do you need to do as a home based innovator? 12:20:15 There's plenty of toolkits that are written in Java and which produce javascript. 12:20:28 Dichotomy between markup and scripting. 12:21:12 unl has joined #tp 12:21:12 MikeSmith has joined #tp 12:21:30 As an innovator you should be able to create new xml vocabularies without needing the browser vendors to do anything specifically for you. 12:21:56 danbri has joined #tp 12:22:19 The only time that browsers need to change is when you change the browser platform. 12:22:47 For many other things you can introduce new authoring abstractions without a need to change the browsers. 12:23:32 H&kon: the people on the web didn't accept the authority of the standards people. 12:23:43 they invented their own tags 12:24:02 it is easy to add new tags e.g. within the canvas element. 12:24:15 That's what Raman was saying 12:24:22 (or was that the class attribute?) 12:24:52 Raman: there shouldn't be a huge division between XML and HTML 12:25:23 you shouldn't need to wait for a change to html specs. 12:25:47 Raman and H&kon agree that you can do this today via scripts that interpret the dom. 12:26:12 XBL++ 12:26:16 shawn has joined #tp 12:26:22 josema has joined #tp 12:26:47 shawn has joined #tp 12:26:55 H&kon: strong support for W3C working in HTML5, it would be a sad day if this had to be done elsewhere. 12:27:22 Norm: I have being using XML since we spelled it as SGML 12:27:23 as HÃ¥kon says, there are many ways that developers and create HTML extensions and processing behavior for them without needing to ask browser vendors to support them natively 12:27:39 s/developers and/developers can/ 12:28:01 smedero has joined #tp 12:28:12 Norm: we would be doing the community a big service if we could follow Murray's idea of one web. 12:28:13 marcos has joined #tp 12:28:23 stef has joined #tp 12:28:36 Namespace declarations could be made more convenient 12:29:02 Merging svg and mathml into html doesn't scale when we want to consider other vocabs. 12:29:05 arun_ has joined #tp 12:29:08 renato_ has joined #tp 12:29:10 martinmollema has joined #tp 12:29:52 Henri: over past 10 years only a few vocabs that browsers really need to support. 12:30:20 What other vocabularies similar to SVG and MathML do we have? 12:30:43 Chris: you can see that in 2 ways, perhaps it is too hard to add new vocabs. 12:31:02 gsnedders has joined #tp 12:31:18 renato__ has joined #tp 12:31:18 Raman: what is the cause and what is the effect? 12:31:26 mamol has joined #tp 12:32:16 Charlie: we have done such a good job on selling the benefits of XML, and we now need to allow these to be realized in the browser. 12:32:40 We will see an N squared effect if we succeed. 12:33:10 David Baron: depending on what kinds of extensibility you are talking about there is a danger there. 12:33:59 Using Javascript is fine as it is already available. 12:34:02 AnnB has left #tp 12:34:10 arun has joined #tp 12:34:48 I use linux on a 64 bit cpu and don't have access t flash which is a problem for many websites. 12:34:48 Norm has joined #tp 12:35:05 SallyC has left #tp 12:35:40 marcos has joined #tp 12:36:09 RRSAgent, pointer? 12:36:09 See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-irc#T12-36-09 12:36:11 Alex: for html the web works quite well, but for other vocabs e.g. mathml it isn't so good 12:36:19 the consumers are suffering 12:37:12 arun has joined #tp 12:37:14 we are still arguing for over 10 years without a good solution 12:37:31 Chris: if all you want to do there are solutions, but not that nice. 12:37:50 Student's find it hard to install plugins/. 12:38:21 The content producers are no better than the students. 12:39:00 People tend to give up and use formats like PDF 12:39:33 Charlie: checkout the ubiquity project as an example of how to implement xml vocabs in today's browsers. 12:40:41 Henri: you end up shipping an imperative program along with your markup. 12:41:15 kbals has joined #tp 12:41:19 The browser scripting APIs are what needs to be standardized 12:41:58 oshani has joined #tp 12:42:04 Charlie: we are way ahead of just shipping imperative code, we are relying on a well defined xml vocabulARY 12:42:16 Ubiquity XForms examples (slow loading off SVN :-) http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/_samples/ 12:42:42 Henri: what about web crawlers? How do they see the markup that the script acts on? 12:43:05 jkangash has joined #tp 12:43:05 smedero has joined #tp 12:43:08 danbri has joined #tp 12:43:11 arun has joined #tp 12:43:12 Raman: the crawlers would see the declarative markup 12:43:37 (the interpreter is supplied via a script element) 12:44:34 Raman talks about the meme of spotting repeated idioms and providing declarative markup for them 12:44:57 paul has joined #tp 12:45:02 Henri: how does a crawler know that a script is present that can interpret the markup? 12:45:21 Raman: having the crawler interpret the script is very expensive 12:46:04 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 12:46:09 Raman: web hackers exploit hacks with document .write and this means that crawlers have a tough time. 12:46:54 Henri: the script API is more important than the markup when it comes to standardization. 12:47:01 rjauburn has joined #tp 12:47:05 ori has joined #tp 12:47:31 Chris: the crawler should need to worry about the script 12:48:04 dbaron has joined #tp 12:48:08 ed has joined #tp 12:48:37 matt has left #tp 12:49:21 iheni has joined #tp 12:49:26 matt has joined #tp 12:51:13 arun has joined #tp 12:52:35 stefanoCrosta has joined #tp 12:52:43 paul has joined #tp 12:53:03 matt has left #tp 12:53:10 marcos has joined #tp 12:53:40 matt has joined #tp 12:54:16 timbl has joined #tp 12:54:47 ChrisL has joined #tp 12:55:08 smedero has joined #tp 12:55:08 rjauburn has joined #tp 12:55:54 nick has joined #tp 12:56:23 unl_ has joined #tp 12:56:39 is this whole discussion minuted at all ??? 12:56:59 mamol has joined #tp 12:57:28 dave 12:57:39 yeah, he did get disconneted 12:58:15 he knows that he got disconnected now 12:59:12 the DOM can already recognize arbitrary elements. 13:00:17 arun has joined #tp 13:01:11 danbri has joined #tp 13:01:30 dave has issues to reconnect - who'd be willing to take over scribing please? 13:01:33 http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A...%3CtheTimblTag%20hello%3E 13:01:41 for example 13:02:16 scribenick: MikeSmith 13:02:18 glazoe, can you sumarize? 13:02:24 many thanks mikey 13:02:39 ... Maybe having better ways to plu gin js libs and implement standards would be a good idr as as well 13:02:40 timbl: You need to be able to experiment; and then some things get standardized. 13:02:52 Jonase: having better ways to plug-in JS libraries into browsers would be good 13:03:05 These libs have ben badly integrated with HTML ... we as browser impl were cautions, not sure it would be used. 13:03:18 The cost is high because of the size of t espec 13:03:22 Jonas: Another thing is that a number of W3C technologies are difficult to integrate into browsers 13:03:37 It would be good to ...] as well has vieng spec swhich integrate wiht HTML 13:03:46 Raman: Yes on large specs are a pain 13:03:51 marcos has joined #tp 13:04:07 summary, XBL2 solves this problem 13:04:18 ... peole awho say they are implementing HTML5 are in fact doing variou s diff bits 13:04:18 hhalpin has joined #tp 13:04:22 unl has joined #tp 13:04:22 Raman: HTML5 is good example of a case where a smaller set of specs would have ended up serving us better. 13:04:33 If we has smaller specs, we woudl know what they actually implemnted 13:04:44 Henri S: I didn't incldue Flash as itisn'ty XML 13:04:54 If you are on 64 bit linux there is no Flash 13:05:00 Henri: Flash is part of the platform in the sense that if you don't have it, there is a lot of content you can't access. 13:05:00 On my phone I don't have flush 13:05:02 s/itisn'ty/it isn't/ 13:05:09 taki has joined #tp 13:05:12 s/flush/flash 13:05:15 dsr has joined #tp 13:05:36 [I have flash on my 64-bit Linux system at home] 13:05:55 Henri: I agree with David Baron that extensibility is a problem when you [have examples like Flash where you have a single vendor deploying their own extensions to the core Web platform] 13:05:55 MikeSmith, are you scribing? 13:06:00 timbl: yes 13:06:02 thanks 13:06:17 Henri: What needs to be standard are the APIs 13:06:20 arun has joined #tp 13:06:34 MarkusK_ has joined #tp 13:07:07 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 13:07:23 Henri: What I'm hearing is that extending based on the class attribute is bad, but it would somehow be good if we moved it allowing [arbitrary extensions based on element names rather than class values: 13:07:36 Raman: the class attribute does not scale 13:07:49 Raman: microformats suffers from that today. 13:07:52 ...works for small things. 13:08:14 rjauburn has joined #tp 13:08:21 Raman: "That small camel will break very quickly and you'll have many humps on the road." 13:08:26 Raman: the problem [with microformats] is the same as with HTML5 in that control over extending the vocabulary is centralized 13:08:55 Example of div for video as something that wouldn't work, video relies on some kind of native implementation. 13:08:55 Henri: The execution enviroment is what needs to be standardized. 13:09:18 wonsuk has joined #tp 13:09:47 Robin: A disturbing confusion is between the operational behavior between what what browser does and the semantics of markup. 13:09:55 Larry: declarative markup has other uses besides being interpreted by a browser. 13:10:05 Robin: Declarative markup has uses other than what a browser does with it. 13:10:25 s/Robin:/Larry:/ 13:10:32 scribenick: dsr 13:11:02 The ability to use markup in multiple ways is very valuable. 13:11:09 gsnedders has joined #tp 13:11:21 Raman: agrees strongly with Larry. 13:12:01 Robin Berjon: crawlers not being able to understand new vocans, that is a red herring 13:12:10 s/vocans/vocabs/ 13:12:42 Crawlers are more interested in the text content than the tags 13:13:25 unl_ has joined #tp 13:13:57 Robin: a second thing - a lot of people would like to be able to support new vocabs using a bit of scripting, where is XBL? 13:14:12 XBL or XBL2? 13:14:19 Karen has joined #tp 13:14:42 Erik: XBL is work in progress for Opera 13:14:48 dino, please implement XBL2 13:14:48 heycam` has joined #tp 13:15:28 WebKit has a Google Summer of Code student working on XBL2 13:15:40 Likewise for other browsers ... 13:16:14 LiamQ: a few people have mentioned combining client side XSLT with javascript. 13:16:28 This seems to work across most current browsers 13:16:37 sylvaing has joined #tp 13:16:52 This means the scripting link can be added unobtrusively via XSLT 13:16:58 DanC_lap has joined #tp 13:17:02 MikeSmith: I meant XBL2, XBL is more or less DITW I believe 13:17:09 Charlie: prefer the XBL approach to XSLT 13:17:30 gsnedders has joined #tp 13:17:48 Raman: client-side XSLT is a success story, despite having been declared unimplementable at one time 13:18:19 timbl has joined #tp 13:18:26 Hixie: I am confused as to why XML isn't solving this problem ... 13:18:51 Chris: please stay at the microphone. 13:19:25 Chris: people want some kind of declarative markup to hang the imperative code off 13:19:42 Hixie: why aren't xml and namespaces the solution? 13:20:24 This almost works ... 13:20:35 heycam` has left #tp 13:20:37 heycam` has joined #tp 13:21:02 Tim: right now people aren't inventing markup vocabs but are rather burying stuff in script 13:21:41 Chris: if your content hard codes the link to the script, where is the competition on interpreters? 13:22:53 Tim: with well defined markup semantics ... (missed as mic fades) 13:24:05 If the number of users increases, then the browser could provide support via extensions bound via namespaces or even native implementations. we need a smooth path 13:24:20 thanks a lot dave! 13:24:32 Steve: thanks panel and wraps up before the break 13:24:33 .. and mike+timbl 13:25:12 hhalpin: me too 13:25:25 as far as your suspicion 13:25:29 Steve will stay in the room for anyone who wants to ask about the web foundation. 13:25:48 hhalpin: maybe we can have a cross-group meeting in one of the htmlwg's unconference slots 13:25:53 amit_ has joined #tp 13:25:58 10 minute break followed by demos 13:26:03 scribe: null 13:26:15 nick has joined #tp 13:26:34 btw, koalie has secured a second room for HTML WG f2f, if we want to have breakout sessions 13:29:55 hlee7 has joined #tp 13:30:37 richardschwerdtfe has left #tp 13:33:09 plinss_ has joined #tp 13:33:46 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 13:36:48 Roland_ has joined #tp 13:37:15 Laura has left #tp 13:37:32 noah has joined #tp 13:42:50 Zakim, who is on the phone? 13:42:50 On the phone I see SteveH (muted), MeetingRoom, markh (muted) 13:43:26 marcos has joined #tp 13:45:35 marcos has joined #tp 13:46:46 espresso machines are dead :( 13:49:40 Laura has joined #tp 13:50:23 timbl has joined #tp 13:50:25 glazou has joined #tp 13:51:21 rjauburn has joined #tp 13:51:41 unl has joined #tp 13:51:53 plinss_ has joined #tp 13:53:14 mchampion has joined #tp 13:54:24 timbl has joined #tp 13:54:36 marcos has joined #tp 13:54:37 Semantic Web Activity Demos 13:54:51 Ivan Herman: The demos are online, but please wait to do this 13:54:56 ...don't bring down the network 13:55:06 Eric Prud'hommeaux: Pushing queries to databases 13:55:14 ...hosptial database of diabetic patients 13:55:23 darobin has joined #tp 13:55:25 ...I knew schema, end points, knew how to speak to database 13:55:32 ...if you want to share it 13:55:40 ...I supplied a URL to id the end point 13:55:47 ...and mechanically produce a large number of triple 13:55:50 s/triples 13:55:55 ...now use conventions 13:56:16 ...use data structures, relationship names, and identifiers that others know 13:56:24 ...transfer from one to another 13:56:30 ...do with a simple SPARQL construct 13:56:36 ...pretty much all you need to do 13:56:41 ...now have three copies of my database 13:56:52 ...good for redundancy but not how to run things [laughs] 13:56:55 plinss_ has joined #tp 13:57:04 ...so let's instead do query transformation and push the query this way 13:57:13 ...work on one data structure; works on another data structure 13:57:17 ...do this back to the SQL 13:57:26 ...go back to the SQL query; we know how fast they are 13:57:36 ...instead of copies of database I have queries 13:57:45 ...configuration is trivial; that's the point 13:58:05 ...SDTM...a data model for clinical data for pharmas and drug studies 13:58:18 ...pipeline said use query from one database (HL7) 13:58:19 ...to another 13:58:26 ...tell about that construct; gives me one query 13:58:33 ...pipe to another query and another construct 13:58:38 ...goes back to another query 13:58:40 ...gives same results 13:58:44 ...lots of people doing this 13:58:50 amit_ has joined #tp 13:58:50 ...I am using SPARQL constructs 13:58:54 ...Virtuoso does DDL 13:59:02 ...I find SPARQL constructs 13:59:11 ...thank Lilly and Lincoln Labs for funding this work 13:59:22 tlr has joined #tp 13:59:30 Scott Marshall: That was Eric Prud'hommeaux team contact of HCLS 13:59:35 ...I have a great use case 13:59:45 ...reads mission of HCLS 14:00:01 ..."to develop, advocate, and support hte use of SW tech for biological science, 14:00:07 ...translational medicine and health care. 14:00:17 ...get people back to being knowledge worders instead of hackers 14:00:23 ...So scientific questions and sources 14:00:34 ...in HCLS we found interest in neuro degenerative diseases 14:00:43 ...we found a question created with Alzheimer's Forum 14:00:50 ...to find genes in signal transduction 14:01:03 ...you can see appear a number of data sources integrated into a knowledge base 14:01:04 ChrisL has joined #tp 14:01:17 ...when you look at biomed data sources, there are over a thousand 14:01:21 ...huge amount of literature 14:01:23 olgac_UH has joined #tp 14:01:32 ...see our question here, we used these four data sources 14:01:44 ...very important is that we used linked data principles 14:01:44 smedero has joined #tp 14:01:45 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 14:01:51 ...used URIs to name things, HTTP URIs 14:02:00 ...when someone clicks from browser you get useful RDF 14:02:11 ...include links to other RDF then you start to build Semantic Web 14:02:19 ...as it looks in SPARQL RDF query language 14:02:28 ...can see four different data sources are being integrated 14:02:35 ...we have done preprocessing for reasoning 14:02:43 ..cannot reason across 300million triples 14:02:46 ...give you an idea 14:02:55 ...is the query I just showed you 14:02:59 ...show you the faster one 14:03:07 [Web not working] 14:03:19 ...distributed query use case 14:03:23 ....pushing queries to data 14:03:27 ed has joined #tp 14:03:32 ...the knowledge base; we did with commodity hardware 14:03:36 ...a couple months of hard work 14:03:43 ...big on wish list was to query sources where they are 14:03:51 ...see in diagram; before you have ability 14:03:56 ...go out to every data source 14:04:03 ...and use diff. access methods to get dta 14:04:12 hlee7 has joined #tp 14:04:13 ..story after is push out to diff sources and push out that way 14:04:19 ...instead of aggregating in one place 14:04:21 [multiple distributed sparql queries] 14:04:21 ...that's it 14:04:28 Ivan: while we switch, any questions? 14:04:32 noah has joined #tp 14:05:00 Jeremy: Is there a question about query vs. aggregating data; what about performance? 14:05:04 judy has joined #tp 14:05:06 ...when you do joins across the databases? 14:05:15 Eric: Problem with that approach 14:05:28 ...requires someone to pave the road ahead of you to do the warehousing for you 14:05:38 ...but you cannot do because no one has paved the warehouse 14:05:46 ...performance; all in C; nothing complicated 14:05:48 marcos has joined #tp 14:05:49 amit_ has joined #tp 14:05:54 ...query transformation is lost... 14:05:56 plinss_ has joined #tp 14:06:07 Kai has joined #tp 14:06:10 ? We have one datapoint from OpenLink 14:06:19 ...where aggregated data runs two to three times faster 14:06:23 Ivan: next demo 14:06:27 timbl has joined #tp 14:06:27 s/?/Ashok Malhotra 14:06:32 Raphael: I'm from CWI 14:06:39 shawn has joined #tp 14:06:42 Al has joined #tp 14:06:53 fsasaki has joined #tp 14:06:55 Raphael: This is a Dutch project using SW technologies 14:07:00 ...showing this cloud before the demo 14:07:09 ...people who work in SW are used to seeing the data cloud 14:07:16 ...you can recognize dbpedia 14:07:19 http://e-culture.multimedian.nl/pk/annotate 14:07:21 ...museum is the old cloud 14:07:27 ...use old controlled vocabularies 14:07:36 ...Getty is source; licensed 14:07:45 ...project has converted all these vocabularies to RDF 14:07:54 ...so you get machine readable; and get cloud 14:08:02 ...demo shows using all these controlled vocabularies 14:08:13 ...this is just an interface for annotating artworks 14:08:18 ...used by professional annotators 14:08:22 ...they ID an artwork 14:08:25 ...what you see here 14:08:27 csma has joined #tp 14:08:28 ...click on it 14:08:32 ...and look at image 14:08:37 unl_ has joined #tp 14:08:38 ...a famous drawing 14:08:43 ...from 17th century 14:08:49 ...French Robespierre in public 14:08:54 ...you can edit the title and descriptions 14:08:58 ...that's free text 14:09:06 ...but you can fill in who, what, where, when property 14:09:13 ...use control vocabularies behind the applicaitons 14:09:18 ...have suggestions 14:09:22 ...see on right is various people 14:09:32 ...control vocabulary of the source from which it came 14:09:34 ...I have alignment 14:09:47 ...this was in two different resources 14:09:57 ...I want to say join 14:10:02 paul has joined #tp 14:10:05 ...artworks with this person 14:10:13 ...select it; see the lable; but it's a URI 14:10:16 ...click and behind it 14:10:25 ...descriptions, properties, values, diverse agents and so on 14:10:30 ...I can see that with overfield 14:10:35 ...see an execution 14:10:51 ...type and I can get the values, suggestions from this controlled vocabulary 14:10:54 ...what I see here 14:11:04 ...it's the ? where this term appears 14:11:08 ...again here I continue 14:11:12 plinss_ has joined #tp 14:11:18 ...artwork has been made in English 14:11:22 marcos_ has joined #tp 14:11:22 ...I will have suggestions 14:11:27 SallyC has joined #tp 14:11:39 ...get the professional annotator pushes data into database 14:11:44 ...and go for next artwork 14:11:48 s/made in English/made in La Haie (the Hague, in English)/ 14:11:50 ...nice end of story 14:11:59 ...is they like how to use it 14:12:01 s/La Haie/Den Haag/ 14:12:10 ...the system is so close 14:12:16 ...openness that they are bringing 14:12:25 ...so now they are upgrading the whole backend systems 14:12:29 ...to integrate search 14:12:34 Ivan: questions? 14:13:01 ? Did you consider to provide a common ontology for your tool? 14:13:08 ...so I align; your tool works out of the box 14:13:16 Raphael: use what others are using 14:13:22 ...take controlled vocabularies 14:13:24 ...and align them 14:13:29 ...quality of data matters 14:13:31 timbl has joined #tp 14:13:34 ...align before putting into the system 14:13:46 carlosI has joined #tp 14:13:57 Zaragosa demo 14:14:14 ...City of Zaragosa was interested in promoting city; expecting millions of visitors 14:14:18 amy has joined #tp 14:14:19 ...that's why we built this applicaiton 14:14:32 ...idea is to enable a customizable plan to visit the city 14:14:37 ...this is the home page 14:14:44 s/Zaragosa/Zaragoza/ 14:14:45 s/Zaragosa demo/Diego Berrueta (CTIC): Zaragoza eTourism demo 14:15:01 Norm has joined #tp 14:15:14 ...first step is to get a profile 14:15:28 ...here is a set of screen shots to show application 14:15:39 ...this is the plan/map 14:15:44 ...what to see, do in three days 14:15:50 ...if you click you get a table view 14:15:57 ...see a lot of places to visit and things to do 14:16:02 s/table view/detailed view/ 14:16:06 ...plan splits it up by morning and afternoon 14:16:10 s/Zaragoza demo/Diego Berrueta (CTIC): Zaragoza eTourism demo 14:16:12 ...get a description, opening hours 14:16:17 ...see in Google maps 14:16:22 ...change tab and get 14:16:30 ed has joined #tp 14:16:38 arun has joined #tp 14:16:42 unl has joined #tp 14:16:45 ...more things like music, restaurant locations, shopping centers 14:16:51 ...so far, the plan is the same for everyone 14:16:55 amit_ has joined #tp 14:16:56 ...if I change my profile 14:17:05 ...I have a form where I can specify specifics 14:17:26 ...such as traveling for a conference, rest; traveling alone, group, with children 14:17:39 ...if have disabilities; many options and preferences 14:17:43 ...go out at night 14:17:47 ...things I like and dislike 14:17:54 ...what I want to visit 14:18:07 ...if I regenerate the route, I get a different plan, specially created for me 14:18:11 ...so how does it work? 14:18:19 ...data was already available somewhere 14:18:28 ...databases behind CMS of the city council 14:18:31 ed has joined #tp 14:18:37 ...University of Zaragoza 14:18:43 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 14:18:46 ...collected in different information silos 14:18:48 smedero has joined #tp 14:18:54 ...we wrote an ontology and populated it 14:19:00 amit_ has joined #tp 14:19:01 ...thousands of resources 14:19:10 danbri has joined #tp 14:19:18 ...once you have integrated the data, you can do lots of interesting things 14:19:29 ...two stages: semantic match making and rules based system 14:19:31 CharlieWiecha has joined #tp 14:19:43 ...then we used a planning tool using these resources 14:19:57 ...conclusion is that we used SemWeb, RDF to integrate data that was unconnected 14:20:08 ...then we used Rules to create a new service on top of this pool of data 14:20:24 Eric: Does the tourist board link to your site? 14:20:38 ...this is part of the city council Web site; linked from the home page 14:20:43 ...of the city council 14:20:45 smedero has joined #tp 14:20:52 ...there are two links, one to application, another to an about of 14:21:01 ...they are so proud of it, they want to show people how it works 14:21:12 ...only two links to an OWL ontology that describes the sources 14:21:13 dino has joined #tp 14:21:19 Eric: Great to see this going public 14:21:24 Steve: next panel 14:21:42 ...more and more applications for Semantic Web technologies 14:21:48 ...something we need to pay attention to more and more 14:21:56 ...useful stuff; increasing amount of data out there 14:22:03 ...many conversations about specific technology areas 14:22:12 rigo has joined #tp 14:22:12 ...one instructional session today, which should be applicable to anyone 14:22:24 ...gettting to Rec [Recommendation] 14:22:40 Topic: Getting to Rec 14:22:48 scribenick: MikeSmith 14:23:01 plinss_ has joined #tp 14:23:03 raman has joined #tp 14:23:10 Rotan: we have a number of seasoned/pickled W3C WG chairs 14:23:17 raman has left #tp 14:23:23 ... who are ready to share their experiences with you 14:23:26 fantasai has joined #tp 14:23:41 Rotan: covering tools and guide for chairs 14:23:46 ... dealing iwth communities 14:23:55 ... reducing impedence 14:24:03 ... etc. 14:24:14 [olivier takes the mic] 14:24:36 raman has joined #tp 14:24:44 olivier: raise your hand if you know how many tracking systems we have a W3C 14:24:47 ArtB has joined #tp 14:25:15 caribou has left #tp 14:25:26 plinss_ has joined #tp 14:25:28 ScribeNick: fantasai 14:25:39 Olivier: More seriously, Rotan asked me to talk to you about tools. 14:25:45 unl_ has joined #tp 14:25:53 Olivier: I will come to what tools do you think should be available at w3c 14:26:09 Olivier: A lot of times someone comes and asks me "It would be great if we had this" 14:26:19 Olivier: And I respond, well, we have that let me find you a link 14:26:29 ...: A lot of tools and processing channels are already there 14:26:40 Olivier: It's really difficult for even seasoned w3c chairs to find them 14:26:49 Olivier: Let me point to some of them and show you how to find more 14:26:54 Olivier: One way is the chairs list 14:27:00 +Ralph 14:27:06 Olivier: It is used a lot to announce "I'm transitioning to this, I'm transitioning to that" 14:27:20 Oliiver: Someone complained that there's too many announcements 14:27:28 Olivier: I suggest finding a way to filter that 14:27:31 -Ralph 14:27:34 Olivier: chairs@ is a great way to exchange tips 14:27:46 Olivier: It's ok to ask for help when you don't know, there will be someone to answer your questions 14:28:02 -> http://www.w3.org/Guide/ W3C Guide Book 14:28:05 Olivier: I hope everyone knows about the W3C Guid Book 14:28:11 Olivier: There are hundreds of pages 14:28:13 s/Guid /Guide / 14:28:16 Olivier: You won't want to read them all 14:28:23 Olivier: But you would want to read many sections 14:28:31 Olivier: It would be good ot have a better indexing 14:28:37 Olivier: So people can find the section they need 14:28:42 Olivier: THe guide is for people new to their role 14:28:48 Olivier: We want to recreate the Guide 14:28:52 Olivier: This time as a faceted guide 14:29:02 Olivier scrolls throu About the Guide page on w3.org 14:29:09 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 14:29:11 Olivier shows "Table of COntents; Facets" 14:29:16 Olivier: There are new facets 14:29:23 Olivier: TImeline, Roles, Acitivities, Tools 14:29:37 olivier++, ianj++ for the faceted view of the guidebook 14:29:41 jo-siemens has joined #tp 14:29:41 Olivier: The title is "Collected Wisdom of the W3C Group CHairs and other collaborators" 14:29:48 Olivier: Please help us keep it up to date 14:29:54 mchampion has joined #tp 14:29:55 Olivier: Add information, remove information, 14:30:02 Olivier: Ill-known Tools 14:30:09 Olivier: We have wikis as collaborative editing tools 14:30:24 Olivier: They're still fairly tedious, but we are improving 14:30:34 Olivier: There is a Last Call Comment Tracker 14:30:44 Olivier: It is very useful to have this tool that lets you collect comments 14:30:59 s/deployed soon/deployed now/ for mediawiki wikis and we will be migrating the moinmoin ones 14:31:03 Olivier: discuss in the wg, get consensus, reply, track 14:31:08 Olivier: Mobile Test Harness 14:31:38 Olivier: This is a semi-automated test harness. If you have a test suite this lets you crowdsource your testing needs 14:31:55 Olivier: WCAG 2.0 evluation database 14:32:11 [Michael Cooper comes to stage] 14:32:14 Olivier: If you have any ide of tools you think we don't have yet, and come talk to us 14:32:25 Olivier: Maybe we have it 14:32:38 Olivier: We have a lot of contributors and chairs that have helpd us code tools 14:32:40 s/ide /idea/ 14:32:47 Olivier: The tools are all open source 14:33:02 Olivier: Michael will give a demo of the WCAG 2.0 tool 14:33:28 Michael: The WCAG guidelines has a different problem to solve than other REC specifications 14:33:35 Michael: We're testing implementations in actual web sites. 14:33:42 Michael: A standard test harnes wouldn't help us 14:33:58 Micahel: We developed a framework for evaluating ... 14:34:06 technical problems 14:34:26 ?: An awful lot of tools were contributed to W3C, and don't get enough airing. THis is just one example. 14:34:35 Bert to talk about communities 14:34:37 IJ note to chairs: we welcome demos of tools at chairs meetings. 14:34:41 s/?:/Rotan: / 14:34:49 Bert: Rotan thought that I have experience with interacting with different communities. 14:34:54 jo-siemens has left #tp 14:34:55 oshani has joined #tp 14:34:57 Bert: That's true 14:35:08 Bert: He also thought that would help people get to REC faster 14:35:10 Bert: I'm not so sure of that 14:35:16 Bert: First is editors 14:35:17 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 14:35:18 CharlieWiecha has joined #tp 14:35:27 Bert: Editors edit in different ways 14:35:35 Bert: Some are programmers, some are not so technical 14:35:48 Bert: Accetp that you need a number of tools as number of people edit in different ways. 14:36:02 Bert: One tool we have in CSS is a post-processor 14:36:06 smedero has joined #tp 14:36:09 Bert: You can give it a complete document and it does nothing 14:36:20 Bert: Or a less complete document and it adds things 14:36:26 Bert: ... 14:36:33 gsnedders has joined #tp 14:36:35 AnnB has joined #tp 14:36:35 Bert: The specs themselves. 14:36:40 Bert: You can have one big spec for everything 14:36:42 arun has joined #tp 14:36:47 Bert: Or you can split specs into smaller modules 14:37:02 Bert: I think multiple smaller specs is better 14:37:11 Bert: You can get more people interested in given peices of it 14:37:16 Bert: And people can work in parellel. 14:37:28 Bert: There aresome disadvantages, too. 14:37:34 [note from #tpac: the newly reborn guidebook will be made public, in order to help contributors in public WGs and IGs too. See the draft @ http://www.w3.org/2008/10/GuideBook.html ] 14:37:39 Bert: More ambiguities, problems defining their interaction. 14:37:42 hhalpin has joined #tp 14:37:45 Bert: Then you need to get to REC. 14:37:48 Bert: THere are tools 14:37:53 Bert: But the best tracker is a human 14:38:05 Bert: Someone who keeps track of all the issues 14:38:06 Bert: If you have someone in your group called fantasai, then you're in luck. 14:38:15 Bert: and makes sure they get address 14:38:21 s/THere are tools/There are tools/ 14:38:26 Bert: ... then you have a teleconference with the director and then you're done 14:38:41 Bert: But if your spec is very popular, then you'll always get issues 14:38:50 Bert: THe public will not let you go to REC unless you are very strong 14:38:56 s/work in parellel/work in parallel/ 14:38:57 Bert: Then the WG 14:39:03 s/THe/The/g 14:39:10 Bert: The WG will keep returning the spec from CR to LC again 14:39:21 Bert:You have to get out of that cycle somehow. And I haven't found a way to do that yet. 14:39:27 uuuuuh :) 14:39:28 Bert: So, next implementors 14:39:35 Bert: Implementor they are dangerous 14:39:37 :) 14:39:43 sandro has joined #tp 14:39:43 Bert: They are mentioned in the charter. 14:39:44 BWAHAHAHAHA !!!!! 14:39:52 Bert: They think they are very important. 14:39:58 anne has joined #tp 14:40:10 s/Bert:You/Bert: You/ 14:40:13 Bert: You'll have to get a lot of other people to contradict them before they'll accept a disagreement 14:40:18 Bert: ... web designers 14:40:27 Bert: Youc an ask them what they want 14:40:33 Bert: But they will always ask for more. 14:40:38 s/Youc/You c 14:40:39 mattmay_ has joined #tp 14:40:40 Bert: So don't ask them what they want 14:40:49 s/You c a/You ca/ 14:41:00 Bert: Suggest a feature and ask how they will use it 14:41:04 Bert: even then it's not so good 14:41:15 Bert: Very few people can design a good feature 14:41:16 s/Accetp that/Accept that/ 14:41:38 Bert: but maybe 1/100 times you will find someone who has a gooddesign 14:41:43 Bert: Make him immediately an invited expert 14:41:44 .... 14:41:53 you might understand , but not everyboyd else does 14:42:06 Bert: If you don't get any comments on your spec, then it is not understandable 14:42:06 s/everyboyd/everybody/ 14:42:15 Bert: So go back, simplify your spec, and then ask for more comments 14:42:21 Bert: ... yourself 14:42:33 s/simplify your spec/throw away half your spec, simplify the rest/ 14:42:36 Bert: Keep repeating to yourself, "More features doesn't make a better spec" 14:42:42 Bert: smaller specs are better 14:42:50 Bert: even better is modular, that fits together with other specs 14:43:00 Bert: even with specs other WGs write 14:43:16 Bert: The best way to realize ... is to go out of this community 14:43:29 Bert: Talk to people outside the web community and realize 14:43:38 Bert: That most people don't understand your spec 14:43:47 Bert: If you udnerstand that, you can write a good spec 14:43:52 s/udn/und 14:43:57 Daniel: Daniel Glazman of Disruptive Innovations, co-chair CSSWG 14:44:15 Daniel: I would like to point out the cool stuff in HTML 5 come from implementors 14:44:16 CGI634 has joined #tp 14:44:22 marcos has joined #tp 14:44:39 Daniel: Secondly, web designers are our customers. They know what they need better than us. We are geeks, we make things by geeks for geeks, and I don't trust us 14:44:48 Doug Schpepers 14:44:59 Doug: Transparency. This is something SVG learned well. 14:45:07 Doug: We keep our tracker public so people can see what we're working on 14:45:15 Doug: Responsiveness. Respond to people about their conmments, issues 14:45:39 Doug: Accountability, and making sure you don't get blocked at LC 14:45:43 klaus has joined #tp 14:45:46 Doug: Keep track of everything 14:45:57 Doug: If your grou pis long-lived, 14:46:05 doug: then you're going to come back to the same disagreement again 14:46:12 s/grou pis/group is/ 14:46:20 Doug: Make sure you understand why you made that decision, and document it 14:46:41 Doug: New members of the group are going to do archaeology on the past specs and try to figure out why things were done 14:46:44 Doug: Finally testing 14:46:57 Doug: It always takes longer than you think, even if you think it'll take a very very long time 14:47:06 Doug: Mabye not start with tests, but write tests in parallel 14:47:10 s/do archaeology/do "spec archeology"/ 14:47:19 Doug: You dn't want to lose momentum in the group and then need to start writing a test suite 14:47:44 s/dn't/don'ot 14:47:49 s/don'ot/don't 14:47:54 Doug: Getting a spec to REC status is a process that starts with "hm, maybe we should have a tech that does this" and your group's job is to get through the process to REC status 14:47:58 Dan Connoly 14:48:11 Dan: Someone once said you can't schedule consensus 14:48:12 d/Connoly/Connolly/ 14:48:14 Dan: It's worth to try 14:48:23 Dan: Set expectations, have some slack, but set some kind of plans 14:48:24 s/worth to/worth it to/ 14:48:48 Dan: When you get some hairy issue, you can cut that issue or renegotiate 14:48:52 ... 14:48:58 Steven Pember ton 14:49:03 Steven: FIrst issue your spec 14:49:09 Steve: make sure you have a systme for recording comments 14:49:16 s/Pember ton/Pemberton/ 14:49:35 Steven: I think this is important and these half-dozen systems should be on one page 14:49:39 Olivier: we have that, let me get you alink 14:49:53 SteveN: our WG works based on b.... 14:50:00 s/alink/a link/ 14:50:01 Steve: It's email-driven so that it retains a paper-trail 14:50:02 vivien has joined #tp 14:50:12 Steven: integrates with other w3c system 14:50:16 IanJ has left #tp 14:50:24 IanJ has joined #tp 14:50:26 Steven: Best is that it has a button that says "Give me my Disposition of Comments" 14:50:30 Steven: THat saves so much work 14:50:31 s/b.../Jitterbug, a tool created by Shane McCarron/ 14:50:39 Steven: So you have to go collect your comments 14:50:54 Steven: Sometimes you have to go solicit them 14:51:08 Steven: You don't want someon spotting a major problem at PR 14:51:22 SteveN; Then there are AC reps who don't understand the concept of Last Call 14:51:30 Steven: We also have DoS (Denial of Specification) attacks 14:51:38 Steven: people use process to produce hurdles for you 14:51:43 Steven: So process is friend as well as enemy 14:51:46 Steven: Triage 14:51:52 s/someon spotting/someone spotting/ 14:52:02 Steven: In battlefield hospitals they have limite dresources 14:52:09 marcos has joined #tp 14:52:10 s/limite d/limited / 14:52:11 s/SteveN;/Steven:/ 14:52:16 Steven: They split the wounded: those who will leve without care, thoess who wil die with care, and others 14:52:24 Steven: W3C process is a battlefield, you have limite dres 14:52:35 Steven: Before the meeting get someone to split the comments into three classes 14:52:43 Steve: 1. those clearly right and need no discussion (typically editorial) 14:52:45 s/limite dres/limited resources/ 14:52:46 s/thoess who wil die/those who will die/ 14:52:49 2.: those that are clearly out of scope 14:52:51 3. the rest 14:53:00 SteveN:Spend your resources on 3 14:53:06 Steven: Keep discussion short 14:53:17 s/leve without care/live without care/ 14:53:19 Steven: Discuss issues you think can solve quickly first 14:53:29 Steven: Try to phave potential solutions ready: avoid designing on the fly 14:53:46 Steven: Desinging on the fly is ptoential rathole 14:53:49 s/to phave/to have/ 14:53:53 Steven: Try for 5-10 mnute rule 14:54:00 Steven: IF you don't finish, put aside and try again later 14:54:03 s/singing/signing/ 14:54:09 Steven: Reminder: you want to reach consensus 14:54:14 s/ptoe/pote 14:54:17 Steven: Don't ask "does everyone agree with that" 14:54:24 STeven: ask "any objections?" 14:54:37 Steven: Listen for magic words "I coudl live with that" and stop as soon as you hear it 14:54:43 Steven: You should be strict with comments 14:54:45 s/coudl/could/ 14:55:00 s/I coudl live/I could live/ 14:55:04 Steven: Thoes that do not include constructive suggestions do not need to be taken as seriously as those that do. 14:55:10 Steven: This is advice to those making comments 14:55:17 CharlieWiecha has joined #tp 14:55:18 dino has joined #tp 14:55:19 Steven: Attain Consensus 14:55:27 s/Thoes/Those/ 14:55:34 Steven: Decide on each issue. Try to get a response if you cant. If not, silence == consent 14:55:46 Steven: Dissenters cannot stop a group's work, but try to avoid it 14:55:53 Steven: Document the group's decision 14:56:00 Steven: For non-accepts, document the link to the mail to the persion 14:56:06 Steven: Document objections, 14:56:11 marcos has joined #tp 14:56:12 plinss_ has joined #tp 14:56:26 Steven: Formal objections are required by process to propose changes that would remove the objection 14:56:29 Steven: ... 14:56:34 Steven: Forms 1.0 14:56:47 Steven: We had 250 issues. One email had 60 issues, extremely good review 14:56:54 Steven: It's clear which one swe accepted, which we didnt' 14:56:57 unl has joined #tp 14:57:15 Dan: I have a postscript 14:57:16 http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#FormalObjection 14:57:24 "An individual who registers a Formal Objection SHOULD cite technical arguments and propose changes that would remove the Formal Objection; these proposals MAY be vague or incomplete. Formal Objections that do not provide substantive arguments or rationale are unlikely to receive serious consideration by the Director." 14:57:27 s/one swe/one we/ 14:57:38 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 14:57:49 Dan: Someone says "I would like an extra feature" sometimes you can skip, especially if you start with requirements 14:58:10 join tpchat 14:58:11 Dan: If you keep a public resolutions list and document rationale, then if someone makes a comment 14:58:30 Dan: You can point them to that group decision, say we already discussed this and concluded X because of Y 14:58:41 ?: ... 14:58:54 s/join tpchat// 14:58:56 ?: I have a lot less experience than these other people, although we do have a doc that's in REC 14:58:56 s/?/Dan Appelquist, Vodafone 14:59:08 pdenning has joined #tp 14:59:12 s/?: .../Dan Appelquist/ 14:59:20 Dan: It maybe simplistic to make this recommendation, because in our wg it's abest practice document not a technical spec liek xforms or css 14:59:26 Dan: It is a fairly targetted effort 14:59:33 Dan: We are working on a targetted set of reqs 14:59:39 Dan: Piec eof advice I want to impart 14:59:53 s/abest practice/a best-practice/ 14:59:58 Dan: I've had good experience keeping it short and being extremely stubborn with commenters and with also people in the group 15:00:04 Dan: in a nice way 15:00:12 s/Piec eof/Piece of/ 15:00:12 s/liek/like/ 15:00:20 Dan: I'm lucky in that we came into the group with set of reqs that were easy to fill. We could see the beginning middel and end here. 15:00:22 s/Piec eof/Piece of/ 15:00:31 Dan: We are going to devolve into an IG and then we're done 15:00:45 Dan: I would like to examine whether there are other situations in w3c where that could be possible as well 15:00:52 Dan: I see a lot of efforts that go on and on 15:00:53 s/middel/middle/ 15:01:06 Dan: There's a certain pleasure to finishing something. 15:01:13 Rotan thanks presenters 15:01:20 Rotan: Questions? 15:01:40 Rotan: How many chairs here in this audience? 15:01:51 Rotan: How many expect a CR or REC within next 12 months 15:01:57 Rotan: How many expect to be on schedule? 15:02:07 Chaals: Initial schedule or revised schedule? 15:02:14 Rotan: Those who realize they're not on schedule 15:02:29 Rotan: Would you benefit from some mentoring from others? 15:02:34 Rotan: Nobody wants that? 15:02:39 ?: I think that would be a good iea 15:02:50 ??: Blueberry on top 15:03:00 unl_ has joined #tp 15:03:04 ??: Whenever someon suggest .... 15:03:13 marcos has joined #tp 15:03:24 ?: Dan suggested that a lot of recordkeeping gets you out of ... 15:03:43 s/.../11th hour trouble/ 15:03:47 ?: Frequently someone would say no, and then ask if you have any new information that would affect the discussion rather than rehashing it 15:03:56 ???: Staff contact for w3c 15:04:04 Rigo: I'm also one of those hidden tools 15:04:13 plinss_ has joined #tp 15:04:16 s/???/Rigo/ 15:04:17 Rigo: Engineers tend to negotiate a lot around legal issues, and normally they go around in circles 15:04:21 q+ to ask that we define success criteria for groups, and that closing of a group not be equated to failure 15:04:24 s/??/William Loughborough 15:04:24 s/contact/counsel/ 15:04:27 pauld has joined #tp 15:04:28 Rigo: The earlier you call me in, the sooner we can stop 15:04:28 s/?: Dan/EricP: Dan 15:04:34 ????: I'd like to talk about ratholing 15:04:50 ????: ... is it a good idea for the group to decide it's a rthole, or the chari decide? 15:05:08 ?????: When this happens in my group I start generating proposed resolutions 15:05:09 s/???:/Fredrick Hirsch:/ 15:05:24 s/?????/DanA/ 15:05:28 ?????: And then I keep asking "are there any objections to this proposed resolutions"? 15:05:34 s/?????/DanA/ 15:05:38 ...: You cannot let this keep going 15:05:57 DanC: ... dont' kill it ... if you're having a finishing discussion, let it finish 15:05:58 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 15:06:09 Bert: Have a break when you discover a rathole. Usually after the break it's not so important 15:06:23 ?: I have a question for DanC 15:06:32 s/?/IanJ/ 15:06:34 ?: you've told success stories about sparkle in the past 15:06:37 s/?/IanJ/ 15:06:37 RobinBerjon: Schedule the ratholes for before lunch. 15:06:40 IanJ: Give us a story? 15:06:45 DanC talks reqlly fast about deltas 15:06:52 s/sparkle/sparql 15:07:01 Danc: There wer series of wgs I was in, I got better at scheduling over time 15:07:01 Bert: or schedule ratholes right before a break 15:07:19 DanC: Also grddle was a smaller community, not everyone in teh planet was interested in making comments 15:07:30 s/teh/the/ 15:07:31 ?: ... wehn your'e sure that the issues are out of scope 15:07:35 s/?/Matt May, Adobe/ 15:07:42 s/?/Matt May, Adobe Systems 15:07:51 ?: consensus, closer to unanimity 15:07:55 s/?/Matt May, Adobe Systems 15:08:08 Matt: It's critical to make sure that you consider these things fully and not making a decision by fiat 15:08:15 Matt: it'll come back to haunty you 15:08:21 s/grddle/grddl/ 15:08:28 mscottm has joined #tp 15:08:31 s/haunty/haunt/ 15:08:32 SteveN; in some cases there are comments where it's very obviously clear that it's out of scope 15:08:32 s/haunty/haunt 15:08:45 Steven: The group has seen it, but it's no use to discuss when you couldn't possibly do that 15:08:46 dorchard has joined #tp 15:09:09 Matt: ... COmments are entered and closed that will surely be reraised during LC/CR exit process 15:09:21 DanC: I sue "that's out of scope" less and less. 15:09:24 s/SteveN;/SteveN:/ 15:09:30 DanC: I usually ask them to find it in our charter instead 15:09:35 s/sue/use/ 15:09:37 s/SteveN/Steven/ 15:09:39 Steven: The precious resource is the discussion time 15:09:46 arun has joined #tp 15:09:53 Robin: I wanted to bounce back on idea of mentoring 15:10:06 Robin: In my experience. I think W3C doesn't often enough make use of co-chairs 15:10:17 Robin: Following meeting 3-4 days straight and jetlag .. ti's hard 15:10:28 Robin: Most participants fall asleep at some point 15:10:32 [Keep *good* minutes of discussion. *Really* *good* minutes.] 15:10:40 Robin: Can't do that if chairing. Helps to have a co-hciar 15:10:46 Robin: Second, in terms of timelines 15:10:51 s/ti's/tis'/ 15:11:07 Robin: I think W3C could be a lot scarier to WGs by threatening if group is not following timeline 15:11:19 Robin: XBC we had a difficult job, and we finished on time within 1 year 15:11:38 Robin: We toldpeopel "guys, this has to be finishe din a year or we won't finish" 15:11:58 Jean-Gui has joined #tp 15:11:59 s/XBC/With XBL,/ 15:12:04 ?: It was during a telecon where I was falling asleep that I realized I needed to bring in a cochair 15:12:12 paul has joined #tp 15:12:16 s/?/Dan Appelquist 15:12:23 ?: We have complimentary co-charirs, we havedifferent scikll that we bring to gether 15:12:28 s/toldpeopel/told people/ 15:12:33 MoZ: I have 2 questions 15:12:39 aaronlev has joined #tp 15:12:40 s/?/Dan Appelquist 15:12:47 MoZ: I want feedback, are groups with 2 co-chairs more on-time ? 15:12:52 MoZ: or any other trends 15:12:58 MoZ: You mentioned the (?) 15:13:12 MoZ: The fact is I think that there is only 2 point where the AC reps are really targetted by the spec 15:13:19 MoZ: When it's moving to CR and when it's in PR. 15:13:30 s/(?)/DoS 15:13:44 moZ: Maybe the mailing list of the chairs could be shared with ACr reps interested in following the proces (???) 15:14:00 Steven: First question i have no idea. Certainly it keeps people more sane 15:14:06 [the chairs@ list is open to any member rep, it is not restricted to WG Chairs] 15:14:13 Steven: I'm sure that it's not true to say that AC reps don't get to hear about LC announcements 15:14:18 raman has joined #tp 15:14:21 Mez has joined #tp 15:14:30 DanC: You're welcome to subscribe to chairs list. Don't hear about LC as a matter of course 15:14:44 s/MoZ/Mohamed Zergaoui 15:14:45 timbl has joined #tp 15:14:45 TimBL: There's bin some... comemnts, how to triage them, etc 15:14:57 Tim: How to poitn out how we've thought about it, 15:15:06 Tim: Commentor obviously has another oppinion 15:15:07 s/bin/been/ 15:15:12 s/bin some... comemnts/been some comments/ 15:15:15 marcos has joined #tp 15:15:25 Tim: ... save your spec from being interoperabile with another technology 15:15:34 Tim: ...find the guy who's realized that you were wrong 15:15:38 MikeSmith: I did mean XBC, not XBL 15:15:47 Tim: It's useful to point him to where youv'e made the arguent ... 15:16:02 unl has joined #tp 15:16:06 Tim: Getting to REC is not really the object. THe process is just another tool. We built it because we found without it we didn't do things properly. 15:16:35 Tim: We didn't have CR, and then we found that people weren't implementing until things got to PR. So we changed the process 15:16:36 s/With XBL,/With XBC,/ 15:16:46 Tim: The objective is not getting to REC. The objective is getting an interoperable web. 15:17:02 taki has joined #tp 15:17:06 Tim: .. discussions about process change, there's nothing that IJ likes bette rthan re-editing the process doc 15:17:12 Tim: THere's no objection to discussion like these 15:17:21 Tim: .... 15:17:33 s/THere's/There's/ 15:17:37 s/.../[Tim jokes about people liking process editing] 15:17:39 Tim: But do, regard the process document as your friend. If it needs fixing, fix it. 15:17:40 Blaz has joined #tp 15:17:52 Rotah: ... 15:18:02 s/tah/tan/ 15:18:04 Rotan: One thing that works for us is Respect for other persons in your group and other points of view. 15:18:17 Rotan: And now our closing demonstration 15:18:34 Michael: I apologize for tech problems. My American comp didn't like your French projector 15:18:41 Michael: This is one tool amongst many. 15:18:57 Michael: As I mentione,d WCAG is a guidelines for what authors should do not a spec for implementors 15:19:09 Michael: So we developed a different approach for meeting our CR requirements 15:19:19 Michael: Maybe contains some useful thoughts for others. 15:19:27 Michael: Since WCAG is guidelines, an implementation is a website 15:19:34 s/mentione,d/mentioned/ 15:19:39 Michael: We had to test aht each success criteria could be implemented by an author. 15:20:04 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 15:20:10 Michael: Also treated guidelines as a black box. We need to make sure authors can understand the guidelines, not just that they can be followed 15:20:18 Michael: So we asked peopele to send us information about their implementation 15:20:19 s/aht/that/ 15:20:44 Michael: Surveyed about site size, type of size, which conformance level it was trying to meet, what technologies were being relied on -- need diversity of technologies 15:20:47 W0063Z has joined #tp 15:20:48 Michael: That was in one process 15:21:14 Michael: Ater that we asked them to come back and provide information ... 15:21:30 Michael: We asked the implementors to actually tell us what have you done with these success criteria 15:21:31 s/Ater/After/ 15:21:47 Michael: And they could say whether they match teh criteria or not and to comment on their techniques etc. 15:21:55 Michael: any problems etc. 15:22:01 s/teh/the/ 15:22:06 Michael: And then we needed to go back and evaluate them 15:22:15 Michael: Maybe author didn't understand the guideline. 15:22:23 Michael: We made a team of evaluators 15:22:49 Michael: They were presented with a page with info from impelemntor and then pass fail n/A options 15:23:02 Michael: This is guidance for you to provid substantiating data. 15:23:14 Michael: You evaluate the Pass, then maybe add some comments 15:23:23 s/provid/provide/ 15:23:27 Michael: We required a tleast 2 evaluators for each implementation, 15:23:38 Michael: After getting evals, we would review results 15:23:45 Lachy has joined #tp 15:23:56 Michael: Here 2 evaluators don't agree, so we had to go itnerpret 15:23:57 results 15:24:00 s/a tleast/at least/ 15:24:05 Michael: FInally we arrived at a set of WG results 15:24:07 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 15:24:09 Mez has left #tp 15:24:19 Michael: THen we coudl track how we're doing 15:24:33 s/itnerpret/interpret/ 15:24:38 Michael: We need at least 2 for each criteria 15:24:55 Michael: So again, a very different approach for testing for CR. Useful in some circumstances. 15:24:59 s/THen/Then/ 15:25:18 plinss_ has joined #tp 15:25:19 scribe: Amy 15:25:19 ScribeNick: MikeSmith 15:25:54 ScribeNick: Amy 15:26:23 many many thanks again, fantasai 15:26:38 :) 15:26:46 my pleasure 15:26:46 Rotan: introduces Nick 15:27:07 unl_ has joined #tp 15:27:17 Nick Allott, OMTP CTO 15:27:21 -markh 15:27:22 Nick: I'm CTA for MTB, I'm going to try to introduce you to the Bondai initiaitve. how mobile web applications can access devices 15:27:34 s/CTA/CTO 15:27:43 s/MTB/OMTP 15:27:48 ... this is real. many companies developing. some brought to market 15:27:55 +??P1 15:28:07 s/Bondai initiaitve/Bondi Initiative 15:28:12 ... risk of fragmentation. fragmented security leads to security risks 15:28:43 ed has joined #tp 15:28:49 ... our weapon of choice is open source. Bondi is explicitly targeting W3C as the organization into which we can feed these 15:29:35 ... 11 APIs in scope; we accept the need to evolve and competition; all APIs mediated through adaptable security mechanism; in scope can access from @ and widget 15:30:02 ... re: W3C. starting point: of the 11 APIs we have in scope, 3 can map to W3C technology, the other 8 are up for discussion 15:30:13 Lachy has joined #tp 15:30:14 ... common sense is that security needs to be considered for all 15:30:44 ... there's a need to do something quickly. open source important. security is essential. Bondai embracing elements to do work in W3C 15:31:10 s/Bondai/Bondi/g 15:31:17 Rotan: no questions? ok 15:31:47 Thomas: on these luggage tags we're saying the Web is moving. That says the web moves from desktop to mobile. it also means that the web is moving out of glass bowl. case in point: widgets 15:32:19 ... what we have are applications on the platform programmed in Java and HTML. They'd be much more boring if they didn't have specific @ 15:32:48 s/@/tools like system() to control your machine/ 15:33:05 ... we have people develop web apps and they have privileges on machines, many end up being unsafe. the functionality is coming. Matt will tell you how your browser will find you. 15:33:12 unl has joined #tp 15:33:22 ... the camera will take pics, the gps to find you, the phone to make it expensive 15:33:50 ... we need to take the security very seriously. we have to protect the user from things going wrong and who will control what developers will do 15:33:51 arun has joined #tp 15:34:08 timbl has joined #tp 15:34:14 ... please give proposals by date; please come to London for event on $date 15:34:16 tlr: workshop in london 10-11 december; position papers due 30 Oct 15:34:20 ori has joined #tp 15:34:20 ... contact Dom or Nick 15:34:41 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 15:34:43 Rotan: questions? no? grab tlr (metaphorically) later 15:35:18 unl__ has joined #tp 15:35:18 caribou has joined #tp 15:35:35 what was the web site URL that Thomas listed?? 15:35:50 Silvia: I'm an invited expert for anything video, 15 year background, I run my own video start up. I'm here as a rep of Mozilla for video accessibility on the web 15:35:53 http://www.w3.org/2008/security-ws/ 15:36:05 Silvia Pfeiffer 15:36:27 ... I'll talk about video on the web. We have video element in HTML 5 which is a step forward. (explains formats of example on the screen) 15:36:31 dino has joined #tp 15:36:37 .... we can go much further. we can make video more common. 15:37:00 wiki-style media annotations 15:37:10 Al has joined #tp 15:37:13 ... mediawiki example. This is a wiki for video. What is important is to expose the structure and content to the user and server 15:37:30 Schorsch_ has joined #tp 15:37:31 ...accessibility possible if we have info on the client side. 15:37:40 ... we can do deep search (key word) time offset in video 15:37:52 ... possible if we do time aligned or referenced by name to offset 15:38:08 ogg theora was mentioned 15:38:09 smedero has joined #tp 15:38:17 ... working groups looking at different aspect. we still lack exposure 15:38:20 we have some wgs; but we lack is the ab ility to expose video structure to the user agent 15:38:25 s/ab ility/ability/ 15:38:37 timed text going in that direction, but not really yet 15:38:57 ? have you talked to WebApps? 15:39:06 sylvia: Yes, on the what wg mailing list./ 15:39:08 Silvia: I"m on WhatWG mailign list and we're discussing there 15:39:15 s/mailign/mailing/ 15:39:25 ... we'll do this later, phase 2 stage 15:39:36 pauld has joined #tp 15:39:41 ... difficult, so many formats and need agreement, will take a long time for a common API 15:39:41 danbri has joined #tp 15:39:54 timbl has joined #tp 15:40:02 Charles: chair of WebApps. we have talked and we have an ongoing dialogue 15:40:13 Paul: have you considered the need for linking in the video 15:40:19 s/in/into 15:40:23 Silvia: this is what the media fragments working group is doing 15:40:25 marcos has joined #tp 15:40:42 Schorsch__ has joined #tp 15:41:00 Jim Allen: User Agent WG, would like to talk to you. Accessibility of video is more than just captions. I'm concerned if whether the player is going to be native to the browser or designers making their own 15:41:06 Silvia: we need one standard way 15:41:06 s/Allen/Allan/ 15:41:27 William: I'm william Loughborough 15:41:33 William Loughborough, resident old geezer (self described!) 15:41:34 sylvaing has joined #tp 15:41:57 William: first I'd like to give personal history and shameless name dropping. entered MIT at 16 in 1942, working in the cafeteria encountered Norbert ?. He's the father of computing 15:42:09 "cybernetics" 15:42:23 s/?/Wiener/ 15:42:31 ... I cleared away his dishes as he was talking to a colleague and he said "did i eat yet?" now I find myself asking the same questions. I dropped out of MIT, entered the navy as a technician 15:42:51 ... Dough Englebart was there, when he got out of the navy he got his doctorate, invented the mouse, etc 15:42:58 Schorsch__ has joined #tp 15:43:04 stefanoCrosta has joined #tp 15:43:16 ... I became an itinerate jazz musician and gambler. last 40 years I've been working on medical research and WebAccessibility 15:43:38 ... ? the inventor of the wiki admitted he had thought of patenting it and we're lucky he didn't 15:44:14 ... Tim said 15:44:21 s/?/Ward Cunningham 15:44:53 ... all of you are the smartest kids in your class, all of you have the capacity to bring the web to it's full potential. As Raman mentioned, the web is humanity interacting through technology 15:45:04 ... As Dylan said, you don't need a weatherman to know the way the wind blows 15:45:41 ... self advocacy groups w/ people first in their names, would benefit from an hour of your time 15:46:12 ... others are called centers for ? living, for when they get out of institutions. also senior centers where you can change lives by giving an hour 15:46:35 ... enabling the web is not a matter of 10 billion consumers of information but getting 10 billion contributors to the web 15:46:38 s/centers for ? living/centers for independent living/ 15:47:04 ... not merely passive consumers. I know a lot of you do this kind of thing but we need to do more 15:47:20 ... I'm working to make the web not a read only system but something where everyone participates. 15:47:21 paul has joined #tp 15:47:26 shepazu has joined #tp 15:48:27 ... at ? they started telephones for pioneers. it now has more than AT&T and it numbers about six to seven hundred thousand. they do things like repairing braille machines. the companies are now a consortium, telecom pioneers.org 15:48:29 [ http://www.telecompioneers.org/ ] 15:48:52 ... I urge you to get the places where you work to participate in these kind of things 15:49:18 Bill: I encourage you all to grow old. 15:50:09 ... i leave you with a mantra I use "everyone everywhere everything connected" i would also encourage you to grow old because a fews ago Tim was talking about RDF. then in a few months I'd read enough to write the SW primer. it indicates that you can still do mental aerobics even at my age 15:50:18 s/fews/ few years 15:50:40 ? from Deri 15:50:40 Waseem Akhtar 15:50:48 s/?/Waseem Akhtar 15:50:56 gsnedders has joined #tp 15:51:00 timbl has joined #tp 15:51:02 s/Waseem Akhtar/Alexandre Passant/ 15:51:03 Waseem: XSPARQL, project to bridge XQUERY and SPARQL 15:51:25 s/Waseem/Alex/ 15:51:42 -> http://uwimp.com/eo.htm Semantic Web Primer by William Loughborough 15:51:44 Alexandre... translating data 15:52:02 ... XQuery function in SPARQL, can use concat 15:52:15 ... test value in future expression. can't use it to get output value 15:52:20 Yay! xpath within rdf! 15:52:21 ... export vCard to FOAF 15:52:30 ... translating RDF foaf to xml 15:53:07 mchampion has joined #tp 15:53:29 http://axel.deri.ie/~axepol/xsparql/spec/ 15:53:35 ... you can check xsparql.deri.org. i'll be interested in talking w/ people and 15:54:24 Matt: I'm team contact for a bunch of different things, POWDER and others 15:54:48 ... I'm trying to get people to join GeoLocation group. we defined mission 15:55:05 ... new WG, you can check it out www.w3.org/2008/geolocation 15:55:14 ... currently we are moving along, we have 2 co-chairs 15:55:32 ... we started work over the summer 08, API spec well on the way 15:55:48 ... we're about to get started on primer and test suite. first WG meeting at Vodaphone in December 15:55:59 ... we're going for first public WG 15:56:09 s/WG/working draft 15:56:27 ... video based on firefox geod program. created by Mozilla labs 15:56:36 ... (describes video) 15:57:08 ... yelp data, google maps, shows nearby coffee and tea shops 15:57:47 I wonder if there will be guidelines for security and privacy done 15:57:49 ... this code is easy, it's Javascript API. There's a get-current position, there's a watch position for tracking. the rest is up to you 15:57:53 ... questions 15:58:10 Rotan: Geo Location is one group that will know where it is and where it's going 15:58:24 Karl: Karl Dubost, w3C staff. will there be guidelines about security and privacy? 15:58:34 Matt: yes, we'll have info in the primer section as well as the API doc 15:58:47 rjauburn has joined #tp 15:58:55 Thomas: that topic is very close to all the device API discussion and is in scope for the Workshop in december 15:59:10 Matt: this is why we brought in two chairs. one from providers, one from browsers 15:59:17 Larry Masinter: there has been extensive work in the IETF about geolocation 15:59:23 unl has joined #tp 15:59:25 (and work is ongoing) 15:59:37 (on privacy and security in particular...please be coordinate) 15:59:40 Larry: extensive work in IETF on geolocation. I hope there's more coordination than is apparent 15:59:55 Matt: we're just starting up but there will be coordination 16:00:08 http://www.w3.org/2008/geolocation/charter/#coordination 16:00:12 "IETF GeoPriv Working Group 16:00:12 The IETF GeoPriv Working Group is working on the format, security/privacy implications, and protocols for exchanging geographic location information. 16:00:12 " 16:00:25 DanA: Dan Appelquist, Vodaphone. the reason we put forward someone to chair the group, this is one of the most important classes of API 16:00:56 ... esp if you look at the things coming out on Google, App Store. There's clearly a need in the market for this and it's just as clear as we need to do it in a secure way 16:01:27 Thomas: there is coordination between groups 16:01:47 Steven: why you should have a website. we heard about Metcalf's law: the value of the network square to the number of nodes 16:02:02 .... if you do the math, if you cut network in half, halves the value 16:02:45 ... important we have one Web. Flickr, etc. there's a danger. by putting a lot of work into a site you commit yourself to it. There's no way of moving your data from one Web 2.0 site to another 16:03:13 Schorsch__ has joined #tp 16:03:18 ... how do you know which to use, what if a better one comes along. or re: social network, you're all probably like me getting bombarded w/ requests to be a friend or work associate 16:03:35 is there truly only one WWW? This morning I heard someone dismiss things like Intranets and other things as not part of the Web 16:03:38 ... or geneology sites. what if the site dies? if it shuts down you lose your date 16:03:53 ... Google account closed, lost Orkut, lost 4 years of mail 16:04:08 ... this partitions the web into sub webs and reduces the value of the web 16:04:20 raman has joined #tp 16:04:22 this is why you should have your own site. aggregators could come and find info 16:04:33 All google services let you download your data -- we call it "take your data with you when you can" 16:04:39 ... what do we need? machine readable data. you need CSS for meaning. you need to add machine readable data 16:04:49 s/you can/you want/ 16:05:02 ... when an aggregator comes to a web site it can see what the data represents 16:05:16 DanC_lap has joined #tp 16:05:22 ... you could ask to find a place on a map, add data by combing information 16:05:44 ... rather than putting all your data on someone else's site, put it on yours w/ explicit semantics 16:05:50 Rotan: questions? 16:05:59 ?: what if your own site fails? 16:06:03 Rotan: google cache 16:06:13 Steven: I'm assuming you have a back up of your data 16:06:29 ?: if your website fails, all you need is domain name 16:06:35 -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/vandf/2008.03-website.html "Why you should have a website: it's the law!" [Steven Pemberton] 16:06:48 think that data interoperability is really important to the end users 16:06:56 ?: i mean focusing on your own website. so your data is always accessible. so of course I completely agree 16:07:14 ??: you've said several times moving your data to your own site, how does one do that? 16:07:20 Steven: I said that's one of the problems 16:07:25 s/?/StefanoCrosta 16:07:44 Rotan: one more question from Doug. All slides and presentations will be up as part of the minutes, presenters have incuded links etc 16:07:45 Hi participants: please send your links to w3t-comm if you have not done so already. Thanks! 16:08:10 Doug: so the sites are not merely storage sites but authoring tools. certainly there's value in an authoring tool that lets you move info 16:08:13 The key bit here is data portability: http://www.google.com/search?q=data+portability&num=25 16:08:17 Steve: let's give a hand to the panel 16:09:00 Kai has joined #tp 16:09:17 MikeSmith: one of the current co-chairs for HTML group. Harry Halprin suggested we have an open house to air concerns on work and for us to explain directly what we really are doing. Time tomorrow Thursday 2-2:30pm, Riviera. it seems that there are some groups that might like to make use of the time 16:09:24 marcos has joined #tp 16:09:31 many thanks, amy 16:09:31 Steve: thanks and thanks for the effort to address concerns of the community 16:09:37 (I hope upcoming TAG nominations are one of the announcements) 16:09:41 survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2008-feedback/ 16:09:54 ... please fill out the WBS, your feedback is really valuable. we use your feedback to plan next one 16:10:15 ... next TPAC will be in California. we want to get a head-count, it would be useful for us to know how many to expect 16:10:33 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/100/TPAC2009-attend/ 16:10:45 ... slides are great, I steal from them all the time. Please give us links to your slides. we'd like to use them as a resource 16:10:46 All the Lightning Talks are on my laptop, and I will be transferring the files to the W3C system very soon. 16:11:53 ... I really enjoyed the meeting today. I thought the moderators and panelists did a great job. My sense is that though we have feelings on where the web would go, we all can come together to agree that we want one web, not a semantic web, not an XML web - no walled gardens. I hope we're alll a bit more motivated, there's a way we can find a roadmap, peaceful friendly co-existence 16:12:19 s/Harry Halprin/Harry Halpin 16:12:23 paul has joined #tp 16:12:31 ... thanks to William and Raman who reminded us of our person responsibilities to humanity, to do good things in terms of commerce, etc. whether we use the web to serve our local community or the world, I appreciate your efforts 16:12:39 DanC: the TAG nominations open 3 November 16:12:55 Ian: this may be Steve's last opportunity to chair TPAC so many thanks to him (applause) 16:13:36 Steve: for those of you who don't know, I'm moving on to the W3F. Thanks to Nokia for the platinum sponsorship. the moderators and panelists did a wonderful job. 16:13:36 taki has left #tp 16:13:43 clap clap clap 16:13:46 clap clap clap 16:13:47 clap clap clap 16:13:48 clap clap clap 16:13:56 ... ChrisL chaired the program committee and I'd like to thank Chris and all the members of the committee. 16:14:04 sylvaing has left #tp 16:14:08 [ applause to Nokia for their generous support as Platinum Sponsor] 16:14:09 s/Steve's/Karl's 16:14:17 ... scribing the meeting is difficult, lots of info. let's give a round of applause to scribes, systems, team in general 16:14:24 [applause for the scribes!] 16:14:27 nic1 has joined #tp 16:14:43 ... Admin: Amy, Alex, Kana and esp to Coralie and Alex who put this together 16:15:08 ... thank you all for coming here today and participating. I'll look forward to seeing you all at 7pm in the Iles room for a reception 16:15:12 rahul has left #tp 16:15:21 thanks to the spell checkers, name correctors, and text fixers 16:15:22 caribou has left #tp 16:15:27 -SteveH 16:15:37 +1 re: spellcheckers, correctors etc 16:15:42 AndrewR has left #tp 16:15:51 -??P1 16:17:07 rrsagent, make minutes 16:17:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/22-tp-minutes.html IanJ 16:17:19 olgac_UH has left #tp 16:17:27 -MeetingRoom 16:17:28 W3C_TP()2:00AM has ended 16:17:28 rrsagent, set logs public 16:17:29 Attendees were MeetingRoom, SteveH, +1.857.928.aaaa, Ralph, +87713aabb, markh 16:19:16 matt has left #tp 16:20:36 thanks so much ted for the audiocast! 16:21:56 Kai has left #tp 16:22:48 pdenning has left #tp 16:23:00 wonsuk has joined #tp 16:27:42 rjauburn has joined #tp 16:28:08 rrsagent, bye 16:28:08 I see no action items