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07:47:46 <ericP> Meeting: HCLS face to face day 2
07:47:50 <ericP> Topic: Outreach with Karen Myers
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07:48:02 <ericP> scribenick: Susie
07:49:46 <Susie> Discusses potential outreach opportunities
07:50:04 <Susie> Potential outreach HCLS event in December in NJ
07:50:14 <Susie> CSHALS
07:50:24 <Susie> Luncheon at Bio-IT
07:50:53 <Susie> Semantic Technologies Conference was popular this year
07:51:19 <Susie> WWW2009 and ISWC2009 are also events to watch out for
07:51:45 <Susie> InfoTechPharma is another opportunity
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08:05:52 <marie> hi
08:05:52 <Susie> Discuss conferences
08:06:07 <marie> for the record - the INRIA workshop on 28 Nov. 08:
08:06:08 <marie> http://www.inria.fr/actualites/colloques/2008/lscc2008/index.en.html
08:06:14 <Susie> -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLSIG/Conferences Prioritized conferences
08:15:15 <ericP> Topic: Top Five Conferences
08:15:29 <ericP> 1 HIMS Feb Orlando
08:15:42 <ericP> Krisine
08:16:12 <ericP> AMIA Summit Nov 9 DC
08:16:14 <ericP> Krisine
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08:17:00 <ericP> AMIA trans-med bio-informatics feb, SF
08:17:19 <ericP> Susie (conditional on acceptance of an already submitted proposal)
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08:18:34 <ericP> 3 ISMB June Stockholm
08:19:28 <ericP> Marco, Paul, Andrew, Jun, Matthias
08:19:34 <ericP> Bosse
08:19:56 <ericP> 4 BioIT World April BOS
08:19:59 <ericP> Susie
08:20:25 <ericP> 5 DIA March Berlin
08:20:28 <ericP> Susie
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08:23:52 <ericP> marie, i note that euroBio didn't make it on the top five, but do you think you of ivan will attend?
08:24:22 <Susie> Karen asks people to blog
08:24:47 <Susie> Karen asks for volunteers who can speak with the media, 
08:24:57 <marie> not sure eric. I'll check the potential content for the 2009 edition, and then we'll decide if it's worthwhile
08:34:07 <Susie> Karen reviews lists of journals
08:37:30 <Susie> Marie-Claire proposed we publish special editions that highlight our work
08:38:25 <Susie> Karen discusses reaching out to multiple audience, e.g. hc vs pharma; CIO vs specialist
08:39:12 <Susie> Karen encourages us to publish, as it'll help with storytelling
08:44:16 <Susie> Need a high level story
08:44:30 <Susie> Need story for people in health care
08:44:46 <Susie> Health care can be different in 
08:45:01 <Susie> different parts of the world
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09:00:14 <SusieS> Discussion of possible health care storytelling
09:17:51 <ericP> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLSIG/Media
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09:43:37 <Kristin> Using Semantic Web Technologies for Neuroimaging - Christine Golbreich
09:44:01 <Kristin> scribenick
09:44:26 <Kristin> THe problem is that the content of images is not accessible to computers
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09:45:00 <Kristin> Adding annotations (metadata) to the images - 
09:45:19 <Kristin> We also need to add meanings to these annotations 
09:46:27 <Kristin> These need controlled vocabulary used to define the meanings and agree on the meanings
09:47:22 <Kristin> A specific example is labelling of the sulci (fissures) and gyri (gray matter)
09:47:40 <Kristin> They need this to be done automatically as much as possible
09:48:37 <Kristin> Ontology of Sulco-Gyral anatomy 
09:49:05 <Kristin> They have agreed on a controlled vocab.  Based on work by Dameron.
09:50:38 <Kristin> More details on this: http://www.irisa.fr/visages/pdf/AMIA2008-AMCGXMBG.pdf
09:51:15 <Kristin> They used OWL DL
09:53:04 <Kristin> There are classes that follow all the Gyri and Succi anatomy - 
09:54:22 <Kristin> The ontology they developed has some specificity - shared organizational memory - reference ontology for their specific application with specialized vocabulary
09:54:52 <Kristin> For instance, patches, lesions, separations, and segments.
09:56:05 <Kristin> They vocabulary represent the standard anatomy ontology--theirs decorating the lower leaves in the hierarchy to describe the parts they need.
09:57:07 <Kristin> They would like to have takening an existing one and extract what was needed.  But there were some difficulties in doing this.  
09:58:11 <Kristin> DL expressivity - SHIF (d)
09:58:12 <Kristin> They have 300 classes
09:58:21 <Kristin> They have 30 object properties
10:00:49 <Kristin> There are three main steps: 
10:01:08 <Kristin> First segmentation of the images--definition of patches
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10:46:36 <Karen> Susie: Discussion about what other standards organizations HCLS should liaise with
10:46:46 <Karen> This afternoon presentation from HL7
10:46:57 <Karen> ...main standards organization for healthcare
10:47:03 <Karen> ...CDSC for clinical trials
10:47:09 <Karen> ...what about bioinformatics?
10:47:30 <Karen> Helen: Open EHR
10:47:41 <ericP> -> http://www.openehr.org/home.html openEHR home page
10:47:42 <Karen> Kristin: some countries don't have same abilit
10:47:54 <Karen> ...CDC is working on a global Open EHR
10:48:12 <Karen> ...systems that don't work unless you have Soc. Security number
10:48:25 <Karen> ...CDC looks at this because of SARS...global health issues
10:48:42 <Karen> Susie: Let's look at what organizations are doing, other new ones coming out
10:48:46 <Karen> ...see what they are all doing
10:48:51 <Karen> ...engage them earlier
10:48:58 <Karen> ...more opportunities to be influential
10:49:03 <Karen> ...possibly DICOM
10:49:09 <Karen> ...digital images
10:49:15 <Karen> ...could be an interesting group
10:49:20 <Karen> ...wonder about scientific realm
10:49:31 <Karen> ...such as groups working on XML expessions of genes
10:49:40 <Karen> ...one area the minimum information people
10:49:46 <Karen> ...about annotations
10:49:53 <Karen> ...not an expert here, but would love your input
10:49:59 <Karen> ...about the critical organizations
10:50:20 <Karen> Scott: suprised to learn that Affymetrix has released
10:50:31 <Karen> ...Go annotations of ?
10:51:07 <Karen> Marco: through projects and organizations you find these people
10:51:15 <Karen> Susie: EBI; human protein project
10:51:28 <Karen> Marco: they have their own ML
10:51:45 <Karen> Scott: Microray standards evolve toward proteomics platforms
10:51:49 <Karen> ...imaging aspects
10:51:56 <Karen> ...sets of experiments 
10:52:07 <Karen> Marco: It's heterogeneous in bioinformatics
10:52:13 <Karen> ...what do you want to get out of this?
10:52:24 <Karen> Susie: Define things in a more consistent way
10:52:29 <Karen> ...and do queries
10:52:39 <Karen> ...so if things defined in databases were somewhat similar
10:52:53 <Karen> Marco: Maybe there is something for that
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10:53:02 <Karen> ...recent meeting I mentioned not just exporting
10:53:12 <Karen> ...synchronizing to XML format for proteomics data
10:53:18 <Karen> ...may consider going to a different level
10:53:32 <Karen> ...not really ready for that message
10:53:37 <Karen> ...some work to be done there
10:53:47 <Karen> Eric: So they are defining XML standards? [yes]
10:54:02 <Karen> ...so if you take someone who has to come up with a message format
10:54:08 <Karen> ...and say use this, show some Turtle
10:54:17 <Karen> ...if you show not in level of this is what SW can do
10:54:27 <Karen> ...but rather as this is a way to express things
10:54:34 <Karen> ...then get them to express it textually
10:54:42 <Karen> ...and start to realize what they can do with SW later on
10:54:52 <Karen> ...show bits of the benefit, not swollow whole pill
10:54:57 <Karen> ...explain why we like it
10:55:02 <Karen> Marco: I'm easy to convince
10:55:10 <Karen> ...a few people may want to go to that
10:55:21 <Karen> ...go to trend in that community to go with ML
10:55:27 <Karen> ..may be odd at first in that community
10:55:47 <Karen> Eric: Landscape they are in, people put their IP into DTB, or XML Schema
10:55:52 <Karen> ...rather than RDF
10:56:05 <Karen> Susie: Let's hold discussion for later on strategic planning
10:56:10 <Karen> Scott: What's going on
10:56:20 <Karen> ...general sense in community for need to have not only agreements
10:56:27 <Karen> ...about users of URIs and people who want to use SW
10:56:37 <Karen> ...what are best ways to mint URI if you don't have one
10:56:44 <Karen> ...an effort to align on that level
10:56:51 <Karen> ...discussion on mailing list of HCLS
10:56:55 <Karen> ...also from data provider POV
10:57:10 <Karen> ...imagine if you named a protein; Uniprot provides you wit standard name
10:57:16 <Karen> ...following linking open data principles,
10:57:22 <Karen> ...agree with data providers such as Uniprot
10:57:32 <Karen> ...notion is to get a few data providers on board
10:57:38 <Karen> ...to serve up meaningful RDF
10:57:47 <Karen> ...and boot strap people to use common URIs
10:57:53 <Karen> ...so that we can more easily link up
10:58:01 <Karen> ...not link up step by step
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10:58:05 <Karen> ...Workshop coming up
10:58:15 <Karen> ...National Center for Bio-ontology
10:58:26 <Karen> ...hope to get data providers and data users to this workshop
10:58:40 <Karen> ...suggestion to provide official PERLs for HCLS community
10:58:51 <Karen> ...So we have had some discussions
10:58:58 <Karen> ...social networking has been done
10:59:03 <Karen> ...by Eric for a while now
10:59:06 <Karen> ...spoke in Viennea
10:59:10 <Karen> s/Eric Neumann
10:59:15 <Karen> s/Vienna
10:59:24 <Karen> ...EN has been trying to drum this up
10:59:33 <Karen> ...our colleagues at Science Commons
10:59:37 <Karen> ...also working on this issue
10:59:42 <Karen> ...get the user side lined up.
10:59:50 <Karen> ...Communities like MyGrid, BioMoby
10:59:56 <Karen> ...agree on a common naming scheme
11:00:02 <Karen> ...before we agree on details
11:00:10 <Karen> ...get started with a PERL server at NCBO
11:00:21 <Karen> ...show data providers with examples of how to deliver RDF versions of data
11:00:29 <Karen> Susie: Good idea to get key players together
11:00:40 <Karen> ...hope to do early next year; hope it will happen
11:00:52 <Karen> ...hope for NIH backing
11:00:58 <Karen> Scott: Invite you to get beind this
11:01:04 <Karen> ...still some negotiation going on 
11:01:08 <Karen> ...who wears what hats
11:01:11 <Karen> ...being addressed
11:01:22 <Karen> Q: Why not?
11:01:45 <Karen> [?]
11:01:55 <Karen> Scott: OKKAM
11:01:59 <ericP> -> http://www.okkam.org/ okkam home page
11:02:14 <Karen> ...European project to produce URIs for all things semantic
11:02:18 <Karen> ...to manage
11:02:22 <Karen> ...they can help
11:02:33 <Karen> ...as HCLS we provided a use to them
11:02:40 <Karen> Susie: Sound like good people to be at workshop
11:02:51 <Karen> ...be back at 2:00pm for Charlie Mead, HL7 presentation
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12:11:23 <Kristin> Charlie Mead, NCI - HL7
12:11:45 <Kristin> Name based on OSI stack
12:12:11 <Kristin> Had a pretty rapid uptake because it was the "only game in town" for transferring information
12:12:50 <Kristin> Increasing adoptin lead to questions about the other problems it could solve (e.g., accounting, orders mgmt..)
12:13:41 <Kristin> Orgainzational structure of HL7 organized by domain experts (by not necessarily medical professionals)
12:14:14 <Kristin> Interop happened through virally, not but formalisms.
12:14:50 <Kristin> HL7 has become the victim of its own success.
12:15:18 <Kristin> It worked well in hospitals because of syntactic compatibility.
12:15:52 <Kristin> "HL7 isn't a standard, but a style guide."
12:15:59 <Kristin> The system was brittle.  
12:16:19 <Kristin> Other countries started showing up at HL7 meetings because they were starting to think about it.
12:17:01 <Kristin> --> 1995-2006 Success Drives New Approaches ...3.0 was to solve the problems of 2.x
12:17:38 <Kristin> It used a shared reference information model (pre-UML)
12:18:11 <Kristin> Because HL7 was built by engineering types, they felt they should stay out of terminology. 
12:18:38 <Kristin> They realized that they really need to think about semantic interop
12:19:44 <Kristin> v3.0 has a 1% adoption because it is too hard.
12:20:57 <Kristin> Application rules--what type of apps is it? what type of messaging?  
12:21:18 <Karen> Karen has joined #hcls
12:21:22 <Kristin> It is still being built bottom up even though the efforts were strong to drive it top down
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12:22:23 <Kristin> The four pillars of sematnic interop came out in the process of developing HL7
12:23:04 <Kristin> They are necessary, but not sufficient
12:23:07 <Kristin> #1: common-model (or harmonized sibling models) across all domains of interest
12:23:24 <Kristin> #2: Have to have an abstract data type specification
12:24:49 <Kristin> ... there is now a shared ISO data specification
12:25:32 <Kristin> #3: Must be a way for bindng terms from concept based technologies
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12:26:36 <Kristin> #4: (most important result in v3) A formally defined process for defining specific structures to be exchanged across machines (a data exchange standard)
12:27:00 <Kristin> Five backbone concepts (plus role-relationships)
12:27:20 <Kristin> Entity, rule, participation, act and act relationships
12:27:29 <Kristin> This is a real rich deep model
12:28:15 <Kristin> roles not rules 
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12:29:34 <Kristin> These ideas existed, they just came up with a standard representation.
12:29:54 <Kristin> Everyone knew about it, but they were all using different models
12:30:49 <Kristin> All of these classes are state machines--you have to manage state, but everyone does it differently.
12:32:03 <Kristin> Collection, context and attribution - building complex RIM-based structures
12:32:55 <Kristin> You can form arbitrarily complex structures - semantically equivalent - but not computational equivalent because of the nature of XML
12:34:08 <Kristin> Information and terminology model...
12:34:26 <Kristin> ..intersecting and interleaving semantic structures
12:34:58 <Kristin> There are common structures for domain semantics and common structures for terminology so we should be able to bind htem together.
12:35:10 <Kristin> But this crashed.
12:36:06 <Kristin> These different terminologies have different levels of complexity
12:36:38 <Kristin> These turned out to be semantically interoperable in the XML model
12:37:15 <Kristin> People are now starting to take a look at how this can be fixed through OWL and RDF
12:37:50 <Kristin> HL7's Clinical Document Architecture - 
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12:38:15 <Kristin> ...emerged coicidentally with the development of XML
12:38:52 <Kristin> Driven by the document-centricity of much of the healthcare practise - 
12:39:40 <Kristin> six fundemental document characteristics: persistence, authentication, stewartship, wholeness, global/local content, human readability
12:40:25 <Kristin> This didn't take off in the US,but it did take off in Europe because they didn't have the legacy 2.X versions in place
12:40:53 <Kristin> Version 2 is seeing more adoption in the US 
12:41:19 <Kristin> CDA surfaced something that HL7 was never able to do - semantic interop
12:42:01 <Kristin> CDA allows for highly informational systems to interact with less information systems in an organized way
12:42:18 <Kristin> How does HL7 pplay into HCLS
12:42:30 <Kristin> It wa focused on doctors and hospitals
12:42:39 <Kristin> up to 1997
12:43:15 <Kristin> CDC showed up, veternary, CDISC, FDA all started to show up...
12:43:38 <Kristin> This meant they needed to branch out to cover more than clinical care
12:44:15 <Kristin> Of particular interest to W3C HCLS is RCRIM TC
12:44:44 <Kristin> This is the immediate match between HCLSIG and HL7
12:46:14 <Kristin> NCI is funding "Transcend" out o fUCSF
12:47:10 <Kristin> Tolven - at UCSF
12:48:19 <Kristin> The lack of a behavior model in v3 is impacting people who have adopted HL7 (for instance National Health Service in UK)
12:48:40 <Kristin> HL7 when through a reorg
12:49:53 <Kristin> Went from an unstructured org to a very structured organization with a CEO (MD from Intel), board of directors, CTO, technical steering committee
12:50:07 <Kristin> ..create an architecture board.
12:50:24 <Kristin> Starting to look like an org that can solve this problem
12:51:03 <Kristin> HL7 is collaborative and actively pursuing collaborations inside and outside the US
12:52:24 <Kristin> Best example of collaboration is CDISC - gone on the longest and had the most success (not all success,but a good deal of them)
12:54:05 <Kristin> Programmers talking to care providers caused more of a problem because they weren't using the same languages 
12:54:17 <Kristin> gave more details and got further apart from each other
12:55:11 <Kristin> A level of abstraction was useful
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12:56:32 <Kristin> BRIDG - (CDISC - HL7) a way to have abstractions (analysis model) to enable interactions and not get lost in the XML details
12:57:20 <Kristin> The good news about BRIDG has been rock solid for four years
12:57:31 <Kristin> The problem is that there are subdomains.
12:57:40 <Kristin> People want to see 'their words'
12:58:33 <Kristin> e.g., observations instead of adverse effects--one set of users wants to see their labels, not an abstraction
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12:58:49 <Kristin> So now there is a multi-layered model
12:58:58 <Kristin> OWL and HL7
12:59:43 <Kristin> Mapping domains of interest descri bed by OWL and visualized by visual conceptionalization
13:00:23 <Kristin> ...Currently these are not directly connected
13:01:13 <Kristin> The took the BRIDG model in UML
13:01:21 <Kristin> For each concept attribute pair
13:01:50 <Kristin> They ran this through prodigy
13:02:02 <Kristin> This discovered the errors, conflicts, etc.
13:02:11 <Kristin> This provided more robustness
13:02:35 <Kristin> Service awareness in HL7
13:03:04 <Kristin> ..initial work began in 2006 - health services specification proejct
13:03:14 <Kristin> most of this was produced outside HL7
13:03:49 <Kristin> AFter thinking about it, they determined what was missing
13:04:07 <Kristin> They came up with the emerging architecture framework
13:04:20 <Kristin> SAFE (sp?)
13:04:37 <Kristin> SAEAF
13:05:18 <Kristin> intersecting concepts from SOA, RM for ODP
13:07:01 <Kristin> The Reference Model of Open Distributed Processing, intersecting with HL7, and service oriented architecture
13:07:56 <Kristin> Using CDL at the NCI - pi4soa 
13:08:07 <Kristin> Business process modeling version 2
13:08:53 <Kristin> Choreography based view that can be mapped into the HL7 space
13:09:01 <Kristin> Fixes the dynamic modeling problem
13:09:59 <Kristin> Now HL7 and the W3C can have a more meaningful discussion
13:10:18 <Kristin> Clinical research filtered query - CRFQ
13:10:21 <Kristin> Two situations: 
13:10:42 <Kristin> 1. ERH repository 
13:11:06 <Kristin> ...clinical trial cohorts are recruited through advertising
13:11:56 <Kristin> ...submit through a service interface to get qualified patients
13:12:42 <Kristin> 2. You are a patient
13:13:21 <Kristin> ...or a doctor
13:13:25 <Kristin> ...you have to know if there is a clinical trial you are qualified for
13:14:02 <Kristin> knowledge sharing is hoping to play a part in this
13:14:37 <Kristin> caBIg is hoping to help with the new pharma model
13:14:50 <Kristin> They believe knowledge sharing will play a part
13:15:08 <Kristin> NCI is working in a "BIG-Health" initiative
13:15:55 <Kristin> HL7's role in these two contexts - 
13:16:15 <Kristin> 1. Bringing key components 
13:16:33 <Kristin> 2. More adoption
13:16:39 <Kristin> 3. better collaboration
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13:23:09 <marco> q: What is the formal representation of HL7?
13:23:36 <marco> a: it is in UML and the java code, but not something formal like OWL-DL
13:24:36 <marco> Back to the ARFQ - Charlie really sees a need for this.  
13:24:58 <marco> ... there is a business model connecting patients with clinical trials
13:25:10 <marco> ..helps pharma and the patients
13:25:26 <marco> Pharma is willing to pay for the data in the clinical repositories
13:25:48 <marco> ...this is better than current model for patient recruitment
13:26:13 <marco> People in other countries don't have a patient ID
13:26:31 <marco> q: what about privacy--how do you deal with it?
13:26:59 <marco> a: HL7 doesn't define standards--there is a group that comes together to work on it 
13:27:10 <marco> NCI has a lot of security built into it
13:27:18 <marco> This has not been well addressed.
13:27:39 <marco> Partly because of a lack of agreement on patient ids
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13:29:09 <marco> EricP Q: The notion of security they (NCI) preserve is role based
13:31:59 <ericP> Topic: OWL2 Update [Christine Golbreich]
13:32:08 <ericP> scribenick: ericP 
14:01:43 <Kristin> Kristin has joined #hcls
14:02:47 <ericP> zakplease dial riviera_b
14:02:56 <ericP> zakim, please dial riviera_b
14:03:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcls
14:03:24 <ericP> zakim, please dial riviera_b
14:03:24 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I don't know what conference this is
14:03:29 <ericP> zakim, this is hcls
14:03:29 <Zakim> "hcls" matches SW_HCLS(Bio-Ont WG)11:00AM, and SW_HCLS(Chairs)2:00AM, ericP
14:03:37 <ericP> zakim, please dial riviera_b
14:03:37 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I don't know what conference this is
14:03:54 <ericP> Zakim, this is SW_HCLS
14:03:54 <Zakim> "SW_HCLS" matches SW_HCLS(Bio-Ont WG)11:00AM, and SW_HCLS(Chairs)2:00AM, ericP
14:04:05 <ericP> zakim, this is Chairs
14:04:05 <Zakim> ericP, I see SW_HCLS(Chairs)2:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be Chairs".
14:04:16 <ericP> zakim, this will be chairs
14:04:16 <Zakim> ok, ericP; I see SW_HCLS(Chairs)2:00AM scheduled to start 484 minutes ago
14:04:24 <ericP> zakim, please dial riviera_b
14:04:24 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
14:04:25 <Zakim> SW_HCLS(Chairs)2:00AM has now started
14:04:25 <Zakim> +Riviera_b
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14:05:17 <ericP> Christine: [slide: what's new in OWL2?]
14:05:40 <ericP> ...OWL2 defines several profiles
14:06:18 <ericP> ... these are used to define subsets that have certain performance/expressivity charactersistics
14:07:06 <ericP> Christine: [slide: increased expressivity power]
14:07:34 <ericP> ... e.g. MaxCardinality(3 boundTpo Hydrogen)
14:08:03 <ericP> ... other addition, of utmost importance to us: property chain inclusion axioms
14:09:01 <ericP> ... e.g. uncle rule
14:09:43 <ericP> ... property chains and qualified cardinality were needed for expressing SNOMED
14:10:12 <ericP> ... added {Reflexive, Irreflexive, Asymmetric}
14:10:40 <ericP> ... note that Irreflexive states that X cannot be a *proper* part of itself
14:11:38 <ericP> ... added local reflexivity
14:11:54 <ericP> ... added disjoint properties
14:12:15 <ericP> ... (increases expressivity)
14:13:20 <ericP> ... added DisjointUnion
14:14:50 <ericP> ... syntactic sugar for having unions applied to disjoints
14:15:11 <ericP> ... added DisjointClasses (syntactic sugar)
14:15:43 <ericP> ... extended datatypes
14:16:12 <ericP> ... + numbers taken from XSD
14:16:23 <ericP> ... + strings with a language tag
14:17:13 <ericP> ... + boolean values, binary data, uris, tim instances, ...
14:17:25 <ericP> ... added data type restrictions
14:17:55 <ericP> ... added simple metamodelling based on punning
14:18:34 <ericP> ... cannot use the same name for a class and a datatype
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14:20:15 <ericP> ... added databse style keys
14:21:12 <ericP> ... defined fragments beyond OWL Lite
14:22:19 <ericP> ... e.g. OWL 2 EL:
14:22:49 <ericP> ... .. useful for large number of properties or classes, e.g. SNOMED CT or NCI thesourus
14:23:52 <ericP> ... .OWL 2 QL, for large a box sets
14:25:08 <ericP> ... .. can do query answering while the data to remain in the DB
14:26:07 <ericP> ... OWL 2 RL, which is implementable in DBs with rules
14:28:49 <DanC_lap> ericp, an IFP applies to _all_ classes. Keys can (a) have more than one column, and (b) be restricted to a class
14:29:57 <ericP> Q's about transitivity and differences between keys and IFPs
14:30:10 <ericP> Topic: PLING Update [Renaldo]
14:32:28 <ericP> Renaldo: meeting this week between PLING and PrimeLife to addressprivacy in social networks
14:33:44 <ericP> ... examining implications of policy langes like CC (and more expressive ones) when applied to social data
14:34:03 <ericP> ... many policy langs leaves interop probs
14:35:25 <ericP> ... [PAW goals]
14:37:08 <ericP> ... looking for use cases from HCLS
14:38:08 <ericP> Marco: will this help social network sites integrate?
14:38:29 <ericP> Renaldo: [enthusiasitic "yes"]
14:38:57 <ericP> ... e.g. mvoing data and policies from linkIn to MySpace
14:39:30 <ericP> Marco: for example, MyExperiment would like blogging avail to its users without providing the site itself
14:39:49 <ericP> helenC: in health care, hppa is a typical use case
14:40:14 <ericP> Renaldo: is that solved with machine-processable code?
14:40:21 <ericP> [No]
14:40:40 <ericP> @@@: do you need to move into data licensing?
14:41:28 <ericP> Renaldo: there's an open data group trying to use CC-like licesnese for data
14:41:52 <ericP> topic:  [Alexander]
14:42:02 <ericP> topic: SWIG Update [Alexander]
14:42:24 <ericP> danbri: started as rdfig
14:43:02 <ericP> ... as an IG, we wouldn't have any work, except you folks spoil the IG expectations
14:43:51 <ericP> ... we don't go to other folks and hide the ugly SW bits
14:44:05 <ericP> ... we can learn from HCLS there
14:44:43 <ericP> Alexandre: [XSPARQL]
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14:45:32 <ericP> ... can we access RDF and XML with one language?
14:46:11 <ericP> ... SPARQL CONSTRUCT produces SPARQL query results which are processable in XML
14:48:17 <ericP> ... can query RDF with XQuery if you use a normalized RDF expression in XML
14:51:44 <ericP> ... will submit XQPARQL to W3C?
14:51:59 <ericP> s/@@@/henryS/
14:52:17 <ericP> henryS: is there a library I can use now?
14:52:59 <ericP> Alexandre: when we do the submission, we expect to publish the library
14:53:08 <ericP> mscottm: is perfomrance a motivation?
14:53:27 <ericP> Alexandre: not really, more more to get XML files
14:53:46 <ericP> henryS: is this the perfect GRDDL transform language?
14:54:17 <ericP> Topic: RIF update [Christian de Sainte Marie ]
14:55:38 <ericP> Christian: everyone understands data interchange 
14:56:45 <ericP> ... RIF is designed to bridge between different rule languages
14:59:28 <ericP> ... zillions of existing rule languages
15:03:37 <ericP> ... superset approach: create a language that encompasses 80% of the existing rule languages
15:03:40 <ericP> ... doesn't work
15:04:21 <ericP> ... intersection approach: express intersection of these languages
15:04:51 <ericP> ... we couldn't do wthis without knowing the needs for more expressivity
15:05:18 <ericP> ... so we started with two dialects and looked for their intersection
15:06:11 <ericP> ... we have a catalog of expressions
15:06:56 <ericP> ... maybe when RIF is deployed and weell-used, perhaps folks will migrte to it
15:07:33 <ericP> ... you don't need to look at the dialects for a rule set
15:08:58 <ericP> ... striped model is easily machine processable
15:10:26 <ericP> ... BLD has single literal conseequents (HORN-like)
15:12:17 <ericP> ... BLD symbol space divided into predicates, functions, ...
15:14:25 <ericP> ... built-ins are functions or predicates which are specififed elsewhere
15:15:26 <ericP> ... won't tell you about named function arguments 'cause i want them out
15:17:35 <ericP> ... [slide: UML-ish element hierarchy]
15:17:48 <ericP> ... in theory, you can check a RIF document against that bicture
15:17:55 <ericP> s/bicture/picture/
15:18:23 <ericP> Christian: [slide: PRD Overview]
15:19:22 <ericP> ... PRD conditions are like BLD conditions - logic functions, + NAF
15:20:50 <ericP> ... it looks like there is a core, but it's not clear yet that there is a usable core
15:21:35 <ericP> ... charter ends May 09, so hope to finish by then
15:22:04 <ericP> s/May/July/ # ?
15:23:06 <ericP> ... not sure if UC&R is on Rec Track
15:23:19 <ericP> henry: do you have named graph constructs?
15:23:40 <ericP> ... contextual logic, like "if X believes Y than I do too"
15:24:05 <ericP> Christian: if you use "believes" as a standard (first order) relation then yes
15:24:18 <ericP> ... if you are talking about 2nd order, we have not constructs for that
15:24:35 <ericP> ... we don't even have negation because this is where rule languages split
15:24:54 <ericP> henryS: for example i could query graphs wtih SPARQL
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15:25:25 <ericP> Christian: if you use an external function, in theory, yes
15:25:51 <ericP> ivan: have there been discussions about PRD with OWL/RDF content?
15:26:10 <ericP> ... e.g. I could model as NOT as a removal from the RDF triple store
15:26:21 <ericP> Christian: this is an objective
15:26:41 <ericP> ... to mesh BLD with RDF
15:27:04 <ericP> ... the priority on the PRD side is to import data in the form of XML schemas
15:28:10 <ericP> ericP: what's the theoretical vs. mechanical balance?
15:29:02 <ericP> Christian: we just have an interchange goal. if everyone has a different notion of negation, then there is no interchange
15:29:46 <ericP> mscottm: 2 questions and a memory stick:
15:30:18 <ericP> ... .. what about DLP and being able to program with DL?
15:30:30 <ericP> ... .. and what about fuzzy rules?
15:30:51 <ericP> Christian: we explicitly excluded designing yet another modeling language
15:31:08 <ericP> mscottm: i meant interop between OWL and RIF
15:31:18 <ericP> Christian: yes, it's in the SWC document
15:32:00 <mscottm> OWL- RL (can be implemented with a set of rules)
15:32:00 <ericP> ivan: there's a stronger connection than that: the OWL 2 RL can be implemented with rules which can be written in BLD
15:33:27 <ericP> ..Dave Reynolds hasd been checking whether OWL 2 RL can be expressed in BLD
15:33:40 <ericP> Christian: Dave Reynolds hasd been checking whether OWL 2 RL can be expressed in BLD
15:33:49 <ericP> ... outcome seems to be yes
15:34:20 <ericP> ... re: fuzzy rules, shouldn't be a problem, depending on where you want the fuzziness
15:35:06 <ericP> harryH: why would RIF bee good for the KIF camp?
15:35:25 <ericP> ... and why would SWIG channel switch from using n3 rules?
15:36:39 <ericP> Christian: basic argument is "do i want to interchange it without thinking about what the remote side uses?"
15:36:57 <ericP> ... maybe down the line we'll see editors for RIF
15:38:17 <ericP> ... am interested in how much of Common Logic BLD covers
15:38:40 <ericP> helenC: your BLD is like the RDF for our data
15:39:19 <ericP> Christian: the idea is that you have an implementation of BLD is not a rule engine; it's a translator
15:39:39 <ericP> ... we did tests on top of JS and production rule languages
15:40:17 <ericP> Topic: wrap up
15:40:37 <ericP> Susie: i think brains are full, so let's have a drink outside
15:40:46 <ericP> ADJOURNED
15:40:58 <ericP> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:40:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-hcls-minutes.html ericP
15:41:09 <ericP> RRSAgent, please make log world-visible
15:54:12 <Zakim> -Riviera_b
15:54:13 <Zakim> SW_HCLS(Chairs)2:00AM has ended
15:54:13 <Zakim> Attendees were Riviera_b
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