IRC log of forms on 2008-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:27:29 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #forms
06:27:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-irc
06:27:52 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make log public
06:28:57 [Charlie]
hi john ... good morning
06:29:08 [John_Boyer]
good morning
06:31:36 [Charlie]
zakim, code?
06:31:36 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Charlie
06:35:33 [unl]
unl has joined #forms
06:38:08 [John_Boyer]
I have the webcon software installed; during xml sec visit, would you be able to project for me please?
06:38:35 [John_Boyer]
s/I have/Charlie, I have
06:44:00 [Charlie]
k
06:54:22 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()3:00AM has now started
06:54:30 [Zakim]
+ +49.297.aaaa
06:55:30 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer
06:55:34 [Zakim]
- +49.297.aaaa
06:55:35 [Zakim]
+ +49.297.aaaa
06:58:20 [John_Boyer]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0035.html
06:58:34 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer has changed the topic to: FtF Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0035.html
07:00:56 [Steven]
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07:02:23 [Steven]
Hi from Cannes/Mandelieu
07:02:28 [John_Boyer]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
07:02:43 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
07:02:43 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-irc#T07-02-43
07:03:39 [Steven]
Meeting: Forms WG FtF, Cannes/Mandelieu Day 1
07:03:45 [Steven]
Chair: John
07:03:58 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:03:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven
07:05:23 [John_Boyer]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0035.html
07:06:52 [wellsk]
wellsk has joined #forms
07:07:04 [Steven]
Present: Uli, Raman, Charlie, Nick, Steven, Roland, John (remote), Keith (remote)
07:07:24 [wellsk]
zakim, what is the conference code?
07:07:24 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), wellsk
07:07:25 [nick]
nick has joined #forms
07:07:45 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:07:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven
07:07:49 [John_Boyer]
John will just do overview of agenda quickly, then we'll need a scribe for submission discussion
07:08:24 [Zakim]
+wellsk
07:09:10 [Steven]
SCribe: Steven
07:09:15 [Steven]
scribe: Steven
07:11:14 [Steven]
John: Timing is 9 to 5, all Ok with that?
07:11:17 [Steven]
Steven: Sure
07:11:44 [Roger]
Roger has joined #forms
07:12:07 [Steven]
Present+Rogelio
07:12:42 [John_Boyer]
Topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0035.html
07:13:10 [Steven]
Topic: Agenda overview
07:13:35 [Steven]
John: First submission, then a coffe break, then a meeting with XML Sec people
07:13:54 [Steven]
... they have a telecon set up
07:14:08 [Steven]
... and there are some slides if necessary
07:14:22 [Steven]
... I will be talking about integrating XML Signatures with XForms
07:14:55 [Steven]
... also covering ODF+XForms
07:15:08 [Steven]
Keith: Same conference code?
07:15:20 [Steven]
John: No, let me find it
07:15:39 [Steven]
... their room is bigger, so that is why we are going to them and not v.v.
07:16:09 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_3328
07:16:24 [Steven]
Steven: Code is XMLSEC
07:16:37 [Steven]
John: 12.30 to 2 is lunch
07:16:54 [Steven]
... with room with being France
07:16:57 [Roland_]
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07:17:20 [Steven]
... 2 to 3 is XML Events
07:17:33 [Steven]
... then tea break 3-3.30
07:17:58 [Steven]
Charlie: AT 4 I have to go to Multimodal
07:18:14 [Steven]
John: And at the end of day the UI layer
07:18:20 [Steven]
... extending to tomorrow
07:18:33 [Steven]
... then 2 sessions of Webforms/a
07:18:47 [Steven]
... then future meetings
07:19:37 [Steven]
John: AOB?
07:20:12 [Steven]
Charlie: The panel on Wednesday?
07:20:25 [Steven]
Steven: Mark said he'd be willing/able to replace John on the panel
07:20:47 [Steven]
Present+Philippe Le Hegaret
07:21:49 [Steven]
John: Shall we discuss the panel in the 2-3 slot tomorrow?
07:22:22 [John_Boyer]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
07:22:43 [Steven]
Topic: Submission module
07:23:23 [Steven]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-be04577d9d30bd43068682d94500a856092896b0
07:24:16 [Steven]
John: [Overviews module structure]
07:24:26 [Steven]
John: CHarlie is driving an implementation of this stuff
07:24:31 [Steven]
s/CH/Ch/
07:28:38 [Steven]
John: So we're doing submission today
07:28:54 [Steven]
John: Uli and I own this module
07:29:04 [Steven]
... some of the bullet points need some clarification
07:30:06 [John_Boyer]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
07:31:01 [nick]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-f707002d9a6fe056325ffcd24c1b157ebe4bad68
07:31:09 [Steven]
John: The first bullet point says we need an event for submission result received
07:32:33 [Steven]
... and it would be better if the end of submission event had a default action to process the results of the submission
07:33:10 [Steven]
Steven: Yes an event is much better
07:33:26 [Steven]
John: The submission module wil define what is in chapter 11 at present
07:35:07 [Steven]
John: Then we have elements and attributes, but I'm unsure about the driver adding the ref and bind stuff
07:36:39 [Steven]
Steven: Is it the aim of this module to be usable by other specs such as XHTML or Voice?
07:37:29 [Steven]
John: Yes, but we have to then work out how it can be independent of the data island module
07:37:52 [Steven]
Steven: Last week we said that data might come from other places than the instance
07:38:02 [Steven]
Charlie: In the future yes, not this version
07:40:29 [Steven]
Steven: As long as it looks like XML to the XPath selectors, we don't need to care
07:43:59 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:43:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
07:45:01 [John_Boyer]
irc has dropped everyone, steven is starting a text file for minutes
07:45:19 [John_Boyer]
s/everyone/everyone at TPAC
07:55:48 [nick]
nick has joined #forms
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07:57:37 [unl]
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07:58:03 [Steven]
[network breaks]
07:58:03 [Steven]
07:58:03 [Steven]
Raman: Why bother, just say that some XPath expressions don't have any effect with Jason.
07:58:03 [Steven]
07:58:03 [Steven]
John: Yes, just have a profile of XPath
07:58:04 [Steven]
... so the question is who adds the single node bindings? The module or the driver.
07:58:06 [Steven]
07:58:08 [Steven]
Charlie: It seems to be reasonable to let the submission module do it.
07:58:10 [Steven]
07:58:12 [Steven]
Roland: Well, we should ask from the viewpoint of the other users of the module
07:58:14 [Steven]
07:58:16 [Steven]
[Plh leaves]
07:58:18 [Steven]
07:58:20 [Steven]
Charlie: ANd different expression languages? Not sure.
07:58:22 [Steven]
07:58:24 [Steven]
Raman: Sounds like a bad idea. Rat hole.
07:58:26 [Steven]
... every application is using XPath now already
07:58:28 [Steven]
07:58:30 [Steven]
Nick: Yes, but JQuery is using CSS3 selectors
07:58:32 [Steven]
07:58:35 [Steven]
Raman: But it is a disaster.
07:58:36 [Steven]
07:58:38 [Steven]
John: The issue of the expression language is not a submission issue; we just use the binding attributes. The driver will decide which expression language.
07:58:42 [Steven]
07:58:43 [Steven]
Uli: Having started on the subnission module, I have difficulty to understand how to get the data to submission if we factor it out.
07:58:46 [Steven]
07:58:48 [Steven]
John: I agree.
07:58:50 [Steven]
07:58:56 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:58:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven
07:58:58 [Roland_]
Roland_ has joined #forms
07:59:02 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:59:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven
07:59:08 [Steven]
rrsagent, pointer?
07:59:08 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-irc#T07-59-08
07:59:33 [Charlie]
Charlie has joined #forms
08:01:54 [Steven]
[network returns]
08:03:01 [Steven]
John: And that covers all the attributes in the second bullet point
08:03:16 [Steven]
"XForms driver module would define attributes ref, bind, validate, relevant, replace, target, instance"
08:03:30 [Steven]
Uli: I would like to see it factored out, I just don't know how to do it
08:03:59 [Steven]
John: Add it to the future requirements, or try to acheive it now?
08:04:07 [Steven]
s/chei/chie/
08:04:27 [Steven]
John: Consider @relevant
08:04:34 [Steven]
... that is harder than @validate
08:04:59 [Steven]
... @relevant is about relevance pruning and is by default true
08:05:16 [Steven]
... so the data will by default be prined
08:05:25 [Steven]
s/prin/prun/
08:06:01 [Steven]
Steven: But relevance has to be optional
08:06:17 [Steven]
... for apps that only load data, mess with it, and submit it back
08:06:44 [Steven]
John: Well, data has to be prunable in practice
08:06:59 [Steven]
... the context for the submit event needs to say where the data is
08:08:44 [Steven]
Steven: Charlie, any implementation experience?
08:08:52 [Steven]
CHarlie: No, we're tied to instance
08:08:58 [Steven]
s/CH/Ch/
08:09:24 [Steven]
John: WIthin ubiquity, for the insert action, it was fairly easy to do via event context
08:09:34 [Steven]
s/WI/Wi/
08:09:55 [Steven]
Nick: There is a danger that you generate copies of the data
08:10:02 [Steven]
John: Yes
08:10:36 [Steven]
Steven: I don't understand
08:10:53 [Steven]
Nick: If relevance processing happens outside of he submission module
08:12:03 [Steven]
... then it has to copy the data to return a version of the serialisable data
08:12:59 [Steven]
Steven: So currently it is serialization that knows about relevance
08:13:09 [Steven]
John: Yes
08:13:32 [Steven]
Raman: Can't the instance contain a relevant bit?
08:14:03 [Steven]
Nick: But then if others use it, they may not have relevance
08:14:20 [Steven]
Raman: Well, we may be overdesigning here, designing something that doesn't exist
08:15:18 [Steven]
John: Yes, there is a base implementation that serializes everything, and a specialization, or subclass does the relevance
08:15:52 [Steven]
Uli: But we have validation too that sits between pruning and serialization
08:17:10 [Steven]
Roland: Validation is at the end of the pipeline before serialization
08:17:19 [Steven]
... submission doesn't need to know about relevance
08:17:43 [John_Boyer]
The xforms-submit event should just have additional context info. Specifically, the submit-node and the target-node
08:18:12 [John_Boyer]
This will avoid making copies of instance data by xforms driver, but generalize submission to applications beyond just xforms.
08:18:29 [Steven]
Roland: The serializer doesn't need to know whether it is relevant, just whether it should be serialized
08:18:32 [John_Boyer]
Such applications can just configure the xforms-submit event rather than using binding attributes
08:18:41 [unl]
@John: What would target-node contain in case of replace="all"?
08:18:56 [unl]
"document()" ???
08:18:58 [John_Boyer]
nothing, that's for replace instance
08:19:04 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:19:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven
08:20:33 [Steven]
John: Maybe the xforms-submit event can supply context information, and the new event (submit received) could have context information about where to put the result etc.
08:22:12 [Steven]
... wherever we see "the driver has to do that" we should look again
08:22:33 [Steven]
Steven: But isn't it a question of the difference between syntax and semantics
08:23:10 [Steven]
... the driver supplies the attributes to do relevance pruning, and the submission module either does relevance pruning or not depending on whether the hooks have been filled
08:25:27 [Steven]
Raman: our relevance model is a bit tangled at the moment
08:26:15 [Steven]
John: [explains problem area]
08:26:25 [Steven]
Raman": Is that a problem with Schema or with relevance?
08:26:38 [Steven]
s/"//
08:27:02 [Steven]
Raman: We shouldn't burden our model with that if it is
08:27:21 [Steven]
John: The problem is with modules not knowing about each other
08:28:10 [Steven]
John: I am not convinced it is an XML Schema problem... oh yes, it is, you're right
08:28:26 [Steven]
[scribe hopes John will type in what his problem was]
08:29:30 [Steven]
John: Schema doesn't understand relevance, so we have to do it, and that is the weak link
08:30:43 [Steven]
Raman: Since it is our design, by the time a form has been instantiated, you could prune earlier than we do it
08:30:48 [Steven]
John: GOod point
08:30:52 [Steven]
s/GO/Go/
08:31:05 [Steven]
... relevance itself is not powerful enough
08:31:16 [Steven]
... it is decorating the nodes rather than insewrting or delting them
08:31:25 [Steven]
s/wrt/rt/
08:31:32 [Steven]
Raman: Water under the bridge really
08:33:04 [Steven]
John: I think Uli and I have enough information to continue
08:33:15 [Steven]
... next session in room exec 6
08:34:39 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
08:34:40 [Zakim]
-wellsk
08:34:40 [Zakim]
- +49.297.aaaa
08:34:40 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()3:00AM has ended
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Attendees were +49.297.aaaa, John_Boyer, wellsk
08:37:55 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:37:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
08:52:28 [John_Boyer]
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09:06:31 [wellsk]
Topic: XML Security
09:07:52 [nick]
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09:09:24 [wellsk]
John has slide deck titled "XML Signatures for Interactive XML Documents"
09:10:42 [Steeeven]
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09:10:57 [unl]
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09:11:17 [Steeeven]
we are in #xmlsec
09:13:19 [nick]
nick has joined #forms
09:16:01 [wellsk]
John: is giving overview of XML Signature
09:16:30 [wellsk]
... digitally sign multiple resources
09:16:52 [wellsk]
... including xforms data
09:17:08 [wellsk]
... fingerprint fro each resource
09:17:17 [wellsk]
s/fro/for/
09:17:43 [wellsk]
... suthenicate refs of resources
09:18:09 [wellsk]
s/suthenicate/authenticate/
09:19:34 [wellsk]
... final hash in <signatureValue>, includes <signedinfo> content
09:20:19 [wellsk]
... metadata of signature in <objectId>
09:20:51 [wellsk]
... sign any kind of data
09:21:34 [wellsk]
... each resource covered by Reference, URLs can be used for location of content
09:22:15 [Steeeven]
Slides at http://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/f2f-2008-10-20/xforms/XMLSignatures.TPAC2008.pdf
09:24:16 [wellsk]
... working offline, detached, enveloped, enveloping signatures
09:26:21 [wellsk]
Ramen: question about agreeing on something that you didn't really agree with..
09:26:41 [wellsk]
John: answers with validation step
09:27:12 [wellsk]
... reproduce signature to what was signed
09:27:49 [Zakim]
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09:28:11 [wellsk]
... cached copies of URIs, ODF docs (1) standalone xml file, (2) zip file with multiple resources
09:28:48 [wellsk]
... URIs relative to zip file
09:31:04 [wellsk]
... Signing ODF zip files
09:31:42 [wellsk]
... caching capabilitiy
09:32:25 [wellsk]
enveloped can talk to others within zip file
09:32:49 [wellsk]
detached sigs can not looki into other resources in zip file
09:33:01 [wellsk]
s/looki/look/
09:33:29 [wellsk]
... ODF -- relative URIS within ODF zip file
09:33:48 [wellsk]
detached: not in ODF file
09:34:16 [wellsk]
enveloping: content is inside XML signature
09:34:31 [wellsk]
enveloped: contains signature
09:35:10 [wellsk]
enveloped -- empty URI attribute
09:35:56 [wellsk]
XML signature within xml instance
09:36:01 [wellsk]
in xforms
09:36:34 [wellsk]
want to sign the entire content not just instance data
09:36:45 [wellsk]
so uses no URI attribute
09:37:00 [wellsk]
Intro to XForms
09:37:55 [wellsk]
showing XForms markup
09:39:02 [wellsk]
xforms model
09:39:15 [wellsk]
xforms instance
09:40:19 [wellsk]
this is where xml dig sig will go too -- in the instance data
09:40:58 [wellsk]
User data from UI goes to instance data
09:41:56 [wellsk]
question about calculated attr
09:42:06 [wellsk]
"what is it doing"
09:42:40 [wellsk]
calculates node c from inputs updated by end user
09:45:33 [wellsk]
John brings up @resource in instance element
09:46:10 [wellsk]
during runtime -- separate dom
09:46:31 [nick]
nick has joined #forms
09:47:10 [wellsk]
xml signature will live in the instance data
09:50:15 [wellsk]
URL resolver, takes out the instance data within same document
09:50:58 [wellsk]
odf <office:document-content...>
09:51:26 [wellsk]
when standalone doc
09:52:43 [wellsk]
odf: three levels: model, form controls, presentation level
09:54:53 [wellsk]
shows <ds:Signature> element within instance within model
09:55:10 [wellsk]
static vs interactive docs
09:59:06 [wellsk]
URI="" indicates root of document
09:59:54 [wellsk]
structured data(xforms is good at this) and unstructured data (ODF is good at this)
10:00:12 [wellsk]
dsig to point to unstructured data
10:01:04 [wellsk]
signing only the data, without signing the resources in creating the data (form) -- this would be useless for repudiation
10:02:20 [wellsk]
need to be able to reference the containing document
10:03:42 [wellsk]
when are you signing, what are you signing? If sign the instance data within document and then signing document, does this mean you sign the instance data twice?
10:04:03 [wellsk]
sign the current state of the document
10:05:20 [Steeeven]
keith, wellsk? Seen channel #xmlsec?
10:05:28 [wellsk]
question: do you have to sign the processing steps for xforms?
10:11:17 [nick]
You can have a problem with an xf:output with a calculate that uses extension functions
10:13:41 [Steeeven]
:-) on staying awake
10:19:07 [wellsk]
discussion revolves around instance data entered by user, saving context of data, serialization of data
10:20:07 [wellsk]
wrinkle: sign entire doc + instance data, resolve ref and digest of signed info
10:20:23 [wellsk]
generate signature and save to disk
10:20:40 [wellsk]
account for fact signature value is changed
10:21:42 [wellsk]
envelope transform "here()" function (data dom not document dom) -- no access to "here()" function
10:21:59 [wellsk]
xforms would have to use dsig filter
10:22:13 [wellsk]
add/remove pieces from digest
10:22:34 [wellsk]
and then adding something new to document after the document has been signed
10:22:41 [wellsk]
invalidates the signature
10:23:29 [wellsk]
creates a signature to a document, after the document has been signed
10:24:12 [wellsk]
delete signature from document being referenced
10:24:29 [wellsk]
omit signature being generated
10:24:52 [wellsk]
here() is the wrong document
10:25:32 [wellsk]
relative URI references would be broken in the saved signature case
10:27:47 [wellsk]
repeated content in xforms, creates problems for which signature is being omitted
10:30:46 [wellsk]
xml dig sig spec 4.3.3.1
10:31:21 [wellsk]
transfom wording, also ref 4.3.3.2
10:59:30 [John_Boyer]
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11:12:29 [Roger]
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Zakim has joined #forms
11:59:54 [John_Boyer]
zakim, this will be forms
11:59:54 [Zakim]
ok, John_Boyer; I see HTML_Forms()3:00AM scheduled to start 299 minutes ago
12:00:47 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()3:00AM has now started
12:00:54 [Zakim]
+wellsk
12:02:25 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer
12:02:44 [John_Boyer]
zakim got confused again and wouldn't let me on
12:03:28 [Roland_]
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nick has joined #forms
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Charlie has joined #forms
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12:08:28 [nick]
zakim, code?
12:08:28 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
12:09:46 [Steven]
Steven has joined #forms
12:10:48 [Steven]
hi
12:10:53 [Steven]
trying to redial
12:11:31 [Zakim]
+ +03349297aaaa
12:11:32 [Steven]
yo!
12:11:43 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
12:11:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see wellsk, John_Boyer, +03349297aaaa
12:11:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Steven, unl, Charlie, nick, Roland_, Zakim, Roger, John_Boyer, wellsk, RRSAgent, trackbot
12:12:01 [Steven]
zakim, aaaa is Cannes
12:12:01 [Zakim]
+Cannes; got it
12:12:51 [John_Boyer]
Topic: XML Events 2
12:13:49 [markbirbeck]
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12:13:57 [Steven]
hi mark
12:13:59 [markbirbeck]
bonjour!
12:14:03 [Steven]
we're on zakim too
12:14:08 [Steven]
usual xforms channel
12:14:23 [Steven]
oh you speak french as well
12:14:29 [markbirbeck]
bien sur. :)
12:14:37 [Steven]
tiens tiens
12:14:51 [markbirbeck]
A little tricky to get to a phone...but I can at a push.
12:15:03 [markbirbeck]
What would you like from me? :)
12:15:30 [John_Boyer]
there will be a discussion of XML Events 2, which you may want to join
12:15:58 [Steven]
wenow
12:16:06 [Steven]
s/wenow//
12:16:11 [Roland_]
Topic: XML Events 2
12:16:21 [Roland_]
latest editor draft : http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080625/
12:16:27 [ShaneM]
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12:16:53 [Steven]
zakim, code?
12:16:53 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
12:16:56 [nick]
Scribe: Nick
12:18:28 [Zakim]
+??P11
12:18:31 [markbirbeck]
zakim, i am ?
12:18:31 [Zakim]
+markbirbeck; got it
12:19:40 [unl]
the better picture is at http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/images/eventflow.png
12:19:52 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
12:20:06 [unl]
and even in svg http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/images/eventflow.svg
12:20:15 [markbirbeck]
hi shane :)
12:22:04 [nick]
Roland: XML events 2 was intended to be incorporated in XForms
12:22:19 [Roland_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0029
12:23:17 [nick]
Roland: We will start with issues that Nick raised
12:24:13 [nick]
Roland: Events attribute group, taget: there is already an attribute in taget in XHTML 2
12:24:24 [Steven]
s/taget/target/
12:24:45 [nick]
.. that is why we changed it to targetid
12:24:52 [Steven]
s/taget/target/
12:25:39 [ShaneM]
I would note that the XHTML Target Attribute Module only puts the target attribute on some elements...
12:26:09 [nick]
Nick: We can support target and targetid and deprecate target
12:26:51 [nick]
Roland: From XML events 2 you can incorporate them in your namespace
12:27:54 [nick]
Uli: I just don't like it targetid the id isn't adding something
12:27:55 [ShaneM]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_targetmodule
12:28:29 [nick]
ShaneM: target is not a global attribute
12:28:58 [nick]
ShaneM: target in XML Events is a global attribute
12:29:41 [nick]
Roland: While and if are only allowed on action, lets see if target is allowed everywhere
12:30:10 [nick]
MarkB: Target in XML events 2 is allowed on all elements, you can specify the handler
12:30:54 [nick]
Roland: Would there will be a problem with using target in XML events 2 if there is no collision
12:31:14 [nick]
ShaneM: <a> is an important collision
12:31:39 [nick]
John: Would you make a an handler?
12:31:58 [markbirbeck]
<a ev:targetid="..." ev:handler="...">
12:31:59 [nick]
MarkB: You can specify a handler using an handler attribute
12:32:12 [markbirbeck]
'a' is not a handler, here
12:32:53 [nick]
John: Why would an 'a' want to say that?
12:33:10 [nick]
Steven: 'That is not your business' ;)
12:33:50 [nick]
MarkB: (Describes his example, that he posted in the irc)
12:34:02 [nick]
Roland: So we can call it target
12:34:44 [markbirbeck]
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-access/
12:35:00 [markbirbeck]
@targetrole & @targetid.
12:35:09 [nick]
MarkB: Explain that targetid is a could name, but acces uses it with a list of id's
12:35:10 [Steven]
ev:eventtarget
12:35:21 [unl]
+1
12:36:17 [nick]
Raman: attarget
12:37:04 [nick]
Steven: DOM events uses eventtarget
12:37:28 [nick]
MarkB: Do we need this?
12:37:50 [markbirbeck]
<a ev:observer="o" phase=:target">
12:37:58 [markbirbeck]
s/:/"/
12:37:59 [nick]
MarkB: Is there alternative markup?
12:38:23 [nick]
Steven: That doesn't work bcz 'a' needs to be the target
12:38:38 [nick]
MarkB: But the observer is on it
12:38:59 [markbirbeck]
<listener event="click" observer="para1" targetid="link1" handler="#clicker"/>
12:39:00 [markbirbeck]
...
12:39:00 [markbirbeck]
<p id="para1">
12:39:00 [markbirbeck]
Here is some content in a paragraph that includes a link to
12:39:00 [markbirbeck]
<a id="link1" href="Overview.html">the
12:39:01 [markbirbeck]
<em>draft</em>
12:39:02 [markbirbeck]
document</a>.
12:39:04 [markbirbeck]
</p>
12:41:29 [nick]
Charlie: It is more complex, then putting on one attribute
12:42:02 [Roland_]
EventTarget.dispatchEvent() - http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-flow
12:42:30 [nick]
ShaneM: The goal is to make it declarative (and be able to do anything we can with scripting) if we remove this do we loose anything?
12:42:57 [nick]
MarkB: I don't think it is directly in DOM 2 events
12:43:03 [Steven]
s/loose/lose/
12:43:29 [nick]
Roland: We still want this for dispatch
12:44:07 [nick]
Roland: Do we want it as global attribute for the listeners
12:44:13 [markbirbeck]
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-EventTarget
12:44:27 [markbirbeck]
There is no way to register for *only* target.
12:44:48 [markbirbeck]
We added that as a convenience.
12:45:10 [markbirbeck]
But an implementation would need to,...er,...implement it. :)
12:45:55 [nick]
Steven: There is a solution you can query the phase and target
12:46:14 [nick]
MarkB: Yes but you have to layer it on DOM 2 events
12:48:32 [nick]
Roland: So what would we loose
12:49:04 [nick]
Steven: The two options is remove it and say how you could do it without target, the second option is to rename the attribute
12:49:29 [nick]
s/two options is/two options are/
12:49:43 [Steven]
if=(eventcontext(target)='myid')
12:50:09 [John_Boyer]
observe="o" phase="target" if="event('target')='descendant'"
12:50:19 [John_Boyer]
s/o/ancestor
12:51:19 [John_Boyer]
get rid of phase
12:51:30 [John_Boyer]
it will always be bubble or capture at the ancestor
12:51:59 [nick]
Steven: I don't think we need the target attribute
12:52:28 [markbirbeck]
event('target').id
12:52:55 [John_Boyer]
event('target')/@id = 'descendant'
12:53:11 [unl]
or @xml:id ;-)
12:53:17 [John_Boyer]
yes
12:53:47 [markbirbeck]
wrong hieracrhy, though :)
12:54:24 [unl]
s/hieracrhy/hierarchy
12:54:28 [nick]
MarkB: The element is the UI and therefore you couldn't do any xpath expressions on it
12:54:46 [nick]
Roland: we call it eventtarget
12:55:41 [nick]
Roland: If you go to dispatch in DOM events 3
12:55:45 [markbirbeck]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080625/#section-dispatchEvent-element
12:56:14 [nick]
MarkB: is 'to' not targetid
12:57:19 [nick]
John: If we switch from namespace attributes to local attributes the rename would be OK
12:58:03 [nick]
John: So the global name would be good for back-wards compatibility
12:58:06 [ShaneM]
I am find with eventtarget, but I note that this is an "interface" in DOM 3, not a property.
12:58:11 [ShaneM]
s/find/fine/
12:58:40 [nick]
Roland: we changed to 'to' from targetid in ...
12:58:56 [nick]
Steven: We should do this some other time
12:59:32 [Steven]
s/in .../in the dispatch action/
12:59:41 [nick]
Steven: We change the name to eventtarget
13:00:39 [nick]
John: Do we incorporate the attributes in our namespace in XForms 1.2?
13:00:59 [markbirbeck]
@eventtarget still has ambiguity, as to whether this is where the event came _from_, or is going _to_.
13:01:03 [nick]
Steven: We(XForms) can do this, it is supported by XML Events 2
13:01:06 [ShaneM]
I asked about "camel case" for the eventTarget attribute. I note that we use camel case for some element names, but not for any attribute names.
13:01:46 [markbirbeck]
I would just like to record that I would prefer something that makes this clear, like @srcTarget.
13:01:53 [nick]
John: We can use XML events 2 without namespaces and XML Events 1 with the namespace
13:02:38 [nick]
ShaneM: It is recommended to use both in the same document
13:03:21 [nick]
Roland: Next item is "The 'target' attribute is renamed to 'to' " on dispatch
13:03:48 [Steven]
dispatch raise="click" to="myelement"
13:04:23 [Steven]
s/dispatch/dispatchEvent/
13:04:37 [nick]
Charlie: raise is bad, it sounds like an exception
13:04:49 [John_Boyer]
multifarious raise puns have been raised.
13:05:11 [nick]
Roland: 'to' becomes eventtartget
13:05:17 [Steven]
like "a raise is never bad"
13:05:29 [nick]
MarkB: I'm not happy with it
13:06:05 [nick]
MarkB: We used eventtarget has the source and now we use it as the target
13:06:36 [Steven]
dispatchEvent which="click" to="place"
13:06:45 [nick]
Roland: We not used it as source but as target, We listen to events that are sent 'to' something
13:07:23 [nick]
MarkB: I want targetid for 'to'
13:08:30 [nick]
MarkB: Explains that targetid in access is the same as 'to' in dispatchEvent
13:08:41 [nick]
ShaneM: I aggree they are the same
13:08:51 [nick]
Roland: They have a list of id's
13:09:08 [nick]
ShaneM: we can make it a list
13:09:19 [nick]
Uli: does it makes sense?
13:09:39 [nick]
Roland: It may be used a list, it can be useful in some cases
13:09:54 [nick]
MarkB: You can do three submissions at one time
13:11:28 [nick]
Roland: We rename it to targetid and make it a list of id's to make it in sync with access
13:13:45 [nick]
Roland: next item Element is renamed to 'dispatchEvent'
13:14:28 [nick]
MarkB: We changed the name to make it in sync with DOM Events 3
13:15:19 [nick]
John: We will import XML events 2 in the XForms namespace, we get an action element and dispatchEvent which formerly called dispatch
13:15:32 [nick]
MarkB: You could keep the old one
13:15:52 [nick]
Nick: Do we deprecate dispatch?
13:16:39 [nick]
MarkB dispatchEvent does not do deferred update and dispatch does deferred update
13:16:54 [nick]
John: It is not dispatch that decides this it is another module
13:18:13 [nick]
Uli: I like that they are modelled to DOM level 3 Events
13:18:59 [unl]
but I don't like camel-case names!
13:19:01 [nick]
John: The element names can be decided by XML Events 2 WG
13:20:04 [nick]
MarkB: You can add a legacy module that contains all the old elementNames
13:22:08 [nick]
Roland: Is dispatchEvent a name that we can live with
13:22:25 [nick]
group: Yes lets call it dispatchEvent
13:23:01 [nick]
Roland: Next item The 'name' attribute is renamed to 'raise'
13:23:36 [nick]
ShaneM: I agree that raise hints an exception
13:23:51 [nick]
Roland: Any other names?
13:23:52 [Charlie]
dispatch="x"
13:24:06 [nick]
Uli: Why can't we use event?
13:24:09 [markbirbeck]
@eventType
13:24:29 [nick]
Roland: event is a global attribute
13:24:34 [markbirbeck]
'type' is actually used in DOM 2/3 Events to describe the 'name'
13:24:46 [markbirbeck]
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-Event
13:25:28 [ShaneM]
eventName ?
13:25:46 [unl]
qname
13:25:51 [unl]
scnr
13:26:00 [markbirbeck]
Arg name to initEvent(), for example is eventTypeArg.
13:27:15 [nick]
Steven: In XForms we can change type to data-type
13:27:45 [Steven]
I didn't say that!~
13:27:50 [Steven]
(for the record)
13:27:58 [unl]
s/-/:
13:28:16 [Steven]
I said we still have an issue with datatype
13:28:20 [unl]
or: use namespaces!
13:28:46 [Steven]
ooh! Idea!
13:29:01 [nick]
group: It is event-type
13:29:36 [ShaneM]
'eventtype' isn't it?
13:29:40 [ShaneM]
or 'eventType'
13:30:10 [nick]
MarkB: delay should be in XML Events 2
13:32:56 [nick]
Roland: XML Events 2 passes all properties available in DOM Level 3 events
13:33:26 [ShaneM]
John's issue is # 8056 and was a last call comment.
13:33:28 [nick]
John: Could you ask if an event is in the capture phase?
13:33:31 [markbirbeck]
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-Event
13:33:33 [nick]
MarkB: Yes you could
13:34:09 [nick]
Roland: Yes we can add examples for the event function
13:34:15 [markbirbeck]
event('eventPhase')
13:34:58 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
13:34:59 [Zakim]
-markbirbeck
13:35:22 [Zakim]
-Cannes
13:35:53 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
13:59:07 [John_Boyer]
zakim, who is here?
13:59:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see wellsk
13:59:08 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ShaneM, markbirbeck, Zakim, Roger, John_Boyer, wellsk, RRSAgent, trackbot
14:01:05 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer
14:02:10 [Roland_]
Roland_ has joined #forms
14:02:48 [Roland_]
Roland_ has joined #forms
14:04:24 [Roland_]
Roland_ has joined #forms
14:07:09 [Steven]
Steven has joined #forms
14:08:36 [Steven]
hello
14:08:43 [Steven]
zakim, code?
14:08:43 [Zakim]
the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
14:09:03 [John_Boyer]
hi
14:09:22 [Zakim]
+ShaneM
14:09:41 [nick]
nick has joined #forms
14:09:48 [Zakim]
+ +49.297.aabb
14:09:50 [unl]
unl has joined #forms
14:09:57 [Steven]
zakim, aabb is Cannes
14:09:57 [Zakim]
+Cannes; got it
14:10:02 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
14:10:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see wellsk, John_Boyer, ShaneM, Cannes
14:10:03 [Zakim]
On IRC I see unl, nick, Steven, Roland_, ShaneM, markbirbeck, Zakim, Roger, John_Boyer, wellsk, RRSAgent, trackbot
14:10:29 [Steven]
(Charlie and Raman at Multimodal WG)
14:12:50 [nick]
Roland: Listening to other documents, and it makes it nervous it are separate documents, and we need to be careful for security
14:13:03 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:13:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven
14:13:43 [Steven]
Present+Shane, MarkB
14:13:58 [nick]
Roland: But for the special XForms case it can be defined, there is a note in the spec that XML Events 2 doesn't want to deal with cross document communication, nor does DOM level 3 Events
14:14:27 [Steven]
+1 on security
14:14:35 [nick]
John: That is why the insert and delete events are targeted to the host document
14:15:44 [nick]
Steven: I agree on the security, but SVG has a use case for 'stuff' embedded in the SVG
14:16:11 [nick]
Roland: We should first ask how you do it with DOM Level 3 Events
14:16:33 [nick]
John: It is easy with DOM 3 bcz. I can get a reference to a document
14:17:14 [nick]
Roland: It is different, for example do the events flow through the different DOM's
14:17:22 [nick]
John: We say this for repeats
14:17:55 [nick]
Roland: Maybe we should review this shadow DOM for XForms 2
14:19:35 [nick]
Roland: We need to define where it has access to
14:21:37 [nick]
John: I want to listen for mutation on the instance data and do mutations on the instance
14:21:55 [nick]
Roland: So you want to put your action handlers in the instance
14:22:08 [nick]
John: I don't want to put them in the data
14:22:36 [nick]
Roland: Yes I know, it is something like a 'bind', connect it in the instance
14:22:56 [nick]
John: But XML events 2 doesn't has a way to specify the other DOM
14:24:01 [nick]
Nick: We need to be careful that browser implementers can implement it due to security issues for cross domain access
14:24:54 [nick]
John: The XForms processor could be defined as listening on one DOM and the processor can redirect them from the real instance
14:26:00 [nick]
Roland: It is a good solution because the bridging is done by XForms and nothing general and is just a solution for this instance
14:26:37 [nick]
Roland: Is it OK that XML Events 2 doesn't provides the bridging facility, but XForms can do it
14:26:39 [Roland_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008AprJun/0005.html
14:26:55 [nick]
John: I think it is OK
14:27:35 [Roland_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0035
14:29:12 [nick]
Uli: they are all dealt with, only the camelCasing but I don't mind, but I want it to be consistant
14:29:46 [ShaneM]
I agree that the camcl casing in xml events 2 is not currently INTERNALLY consistent. we need to take a decision and fix it.
14:32:10 [Roland_]
Forms WG comments on XML Events 2 Editor's Draft : http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jun/0020.html
14:32:15 [nick]
ShaneM: Does anyone has a strong feeling about camelCasing
14:32:31 [nick]
John: XML sec uses it
14:32:53 [nick]
ShaneM: We do it for some attributes but not all in XML Events 2
14:33:32 [nick]
John: When we import it into XForms, it will be not consistant
14:33:48 [nick]
Raland: The long names aren't readable
14:35:14 [Steven]
s/Ra/Ro/
14:36:02 [ShaneM]
there are 3 candidate attributes in xml events 2 - defaultAction, eventType, and eventTarget
14:37:17 [nick]
Nick: We have some hyphenated attribute names from XSLT and some without hyphenation but indeed most are single words
14:39:34 [nick]
Roland: No treating Charlies e-mail
14:39:43 [nick]
John: The picture isn't clear
14:39:50 [Steven]
s/No /Now /
14:40:41 [nick]
John: You can't say at the target on the way down or at the target on the way up
14:41:20 [nick]
Steven: We don't have a way to change how DOM events 3 work
14:41:38 [Roland_]
http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-flow
14:42:04 [nick]
Roland: I propose that XML Events 2 uses the DOM Level 3 Events picture
14:42:55 [nick]
Steven: Should the bottom green arrow be solid
14:43:13 [nick]
ShaneM: I will grab the image, if they fix we will fix it
14:43:45 [unl]
s/they fix/they don't fix it/
14:44:45 [nick]
Roland: Next item "a handler can only listen for one phase, to listen for both..."
14:45:03 [nick]
ShaneM: We tried to update this
14:45:17 [nick]
Roland: It will help if we have the new diagram in
14:46:33 [nick]
John: You can now say phase equal target which is good
14:48:28 [nick]
Steven: at target is not a phase
14:48:38 [nick]
... it is a state
14:48:58 [nick]
Roland: There is no capture phase at the target
14:50:49 [nick]
Uli: In DOM level 3 events an event is in atTarget phase at the target, so not in the bubble phase
14:51:25 [nick]
ShaneM: I agree, if it is at the target it is not in the capture nor in the bubble phase
14:52:03 [nick]
John: language in XML Events 2 also suggests that target and bubble are separate phases
14:52:22 [nick]
Roland: DOM level 2 also has the three phases
14:54:57 [nick]
Steven: DOM Level 3 Events is not yet in Last Call
14:57:21 [nick]
Roland: Next Item CONFORMANCE REQUIREMENTS
14:57:23 [Steven]
he gasps
14:57:53 [nick]
Roland: It is not in the document anymore
14:58:03 [nick]
s/Roland/ShaneM/
14:58:21 [nick]
Roland: Next item EVENTS MODULE
14:59:30 [nick]
John: It is editorial
15:00:10 [nick]
Roland: Next item XPath EXPRESSIONS
15:00:45 [nick]
ShaneM: It is a note to the users
15:01:18 [ShaneM]
s/users/reviewers/
15:03:00 [nick]
John: Yes we want to provide a richer context
15:03:38 [nick]
John: We provide a rich evaluation context for the if and while attribute
15:04:39 [nick]
Roland: This is the end of all the notes related to XML Events 2, did I forget any? (silence, so it is done)
15:05:39 [Zakim]
-wellsk
15:05:46 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
15:06:11 [Zakim]
-Cannes
15:06:16 [Zakim]
-ShaneM
15:06:17 [Zakim]
HTML_Forms()3:00AM has ended
15:06:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were wellsk, John_Boyer, +03349297aaaa, Cannes, markbirbeck, ShaneM, +49.297.aabb
15:07:04 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:07:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
15:07:11 [Roland_]
Roland_ has left #forms
15:07:11 [John_Boyer]
rrsagent, bye
15:07:11 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items