12:11:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
12:11:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-forms-irc
12:11:57 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
12:16:23 <Steven> zakim, list
12:16:23 <Zakim> I see Team_W3M()8:00AM, IA_MFWG()8:00AM active
12:16:24 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are GA_SVGWG()4:00AM, WAI_ERTWG()8:30AM
12:19:33 <Steven> zakim, this will be forms
12:19:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see HTML_Forms()9:00AM scheduled to start in 41 minutes
12:19:48 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 40 to get my act together
12:19:48 <Zakim> ok, Steven
12:20:42 <Steven> Meeting: Forms WG Virtual FtF, Day One
12:20:47 <Steven> Chair:John
12:21:49 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Virtual FtF, Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0019
12:22:11 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
12:22:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-forms-minutes.html Steven
12:38:16 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
12:43:24 <Charlie> Charlie has joined #forms
12:43:34 <Charlie> hi all!
12:52:59 <wellsk> wellsk has joined #forms
12:53:05 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
12:54:05 <John_Boyer> zakim, this will be forms
12:54:05 <Zakim> ok, John_Boyer; I see HTML_Forms()9:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
12:54:14 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make log public
12:56:25 <Steven> already done John
12:56:55 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?
12:56:55 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-forms-irc#T12-56-55
12:57:53 <John_Boyer> thx!
12:58:54 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()9:00AM has now started
12:58:58 <Zakim> +[IBM]
12:59:01 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
12:59:10 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
12:59:10 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
12:59:48 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time to get my act together
12:59:59 <Zakim> +wellsk
13:00:10 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:00:10 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:00:12 <Zakim> +Steven
13:01:03 <wellsk> zakim, who is here?
13:01:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Boyer, Charlie, wellsk, Steven
13:01:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see John_Boyer, wellsk, Charlie, Roger, RRSAgent, Zakim, ebruchez, Steven, trackbot
13:01:17 <unl> unl has joined #forms
13:03:18 <John_Boyer> zakim, who is here?
13:03:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Boyer, Charlie, wellsk, Steven
13:03:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see unl, John_Boyer, wellsk, Charlie, Roger, RRSAgent, Zakim, ebruchez, Steven, trackbot
13:03:27 <Zakim> +unl
13:06:28 <nick> nick has joined #forms
13:06:52 <nick> zakim, code?
13:06:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
13:07:21 <Zakim> +??P27
13:07:36 <nick> zakim, i am ??P27
13:07:36 <Zakim> +nick; got it
13:08:11 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
13:08:25 <wellsk> espound wisely
13:08:33 <Steven> John: Now I have to say something smart
13:08:33 <nick> zakim, mute me
13:08:33 <Zakim> nick should now be muted
13:08:53 <Steven> John: Thanks for minuting that
13:09:09 <Steven> (For John it is 6am)
13:10:05 <klotz> klotz has joined #forms
13:10:16 <Steven> Topic: Modularization Architecture
13:10:29 <Steven> John: If we go to the wiki
13:10:37 <Steven> ... we can use that to drive discussion
13:10:54 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
13:11:07 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
13:12:20 <Charlie> so one thing i wanted to get from this is a review of how many and what relationships we want between modules
13:12:24 <Steven> John: So, what does the model module look like
13:12:41 <Steven> s/like/like?/
13:13:13 <Steven> John: The bullet points gie a sketch of the structure
13:13:19 <Steven> s/gie/give/
13:13:36 <Steven> ... and suggests what gets injected into the other modules
13:13:38 <unl> zakim, mute me
13:13:38 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
13:14:11 <Steven> ... the moedl assumes the existence of an instance
13:14:19 <Steven> s/moedl/model/
13:16:21 <Charlie> how can the bind module insert itself into model?
13:16:23 <Steven> Steven: So do we want the minimal model, or the maximal?
13:16:33 <Charlie> that seems to violate encapsulation
13:16:46 <Steven> ... I would have thought we need to have the minimum you need in a document (instance+submission?)
13:16:48 <Charlie> more reasonable perhaps to have model import bind
13:16:57 <Steven> ... and then other modules insert themselves into the model as needed
13:17:06 <Steven> John: I agree
13:17:52 <Steven> ... there is a struggle here on how to divide it up into schemes
13:18:25 <Steven> Cahrlie: It is hard to understand how bind inserts itself into model if we want it to be standalone
13:18:40 <klotz> bind and mips are different; 
13:18:46 <klotz> bind is like xml events 
13:18:49 <Steven> s/Cahr/Char/
13:27:12 <Steven> Steven: It depends on the aim of the wiki page: does it list the construction of our final model
13:27:31 <Steven> ... or the structures of the models as they will be published
13:27:40 <Steven> s/shed/shed?/
13:28:33 <Steven> John: Then there is the question of the division between behavioural and syntactical issues of modules
13:29:37 <Steven> Charlie: It makes sense to talk abotu the model requiring instance as a module, even though syntactically there may be zero instance elements in the model
13:31:22 <Steven> John: Is there any sense for nay other module to be required my the model module
13:31:27 <Steven> s/nay/any/
13:31:51 <Steven> Steven: Submission?
13:33:49 <Steven> Cahrlie: What would be the value of requiring it?
13:34:29 <Steven> s/Cahr/Char/
13:36:02 <Steven> Leigh: Documents that need to read information but doesn't nee dto return data don't need submit
13:36:31 <Steven> Steven: Just because you don't need to use it, doesn't mean to say it shouldn't be there
13:37:26 <Steven> Leigh: How do we combine modules that don't know about each other
13:37:32 <Steven> s/other/other?/
13:39:27 <Steven> ... If someone wants to do submission in a different way, we can supply the hooks, but if we don't supply the hooks they can't
13:42:46 <Steven> John: Events may be the only mechanism we have
13:48:05 <Steven> Leigh: I think we should be more flexible
13:49:10 <klotz> two separate issues:1
13:49:12 <Steven> John: Can you describe what the issues are?
13:49:50 <klotz> 1. How do we write our modules such that they can be combined with some subset of each other, and with future modules, without specifically referring to each other with "may/must" clauses that effectively turn the existing set of modules into a monolithic system?
13:50:40 <klotz> Issue 1 is concerning the schema for the markup.
13:51:46 <klotz> 2. How do we do #1 for processing model (i.e., instead of "here is where to validate if you're using the validation module").  Instead, perhaps use XML Events or IDL to define external interfaces for modules, or injection points.
13:54:23 <Steven> John: Take submission. Do we look at it from the viewpoint of the submission module, or from the model module?
13:55:25 <Steven> Leigh: Events are not really the right currency for describing these things
13:56:04 <Steven> ... submission doesn't require a model, just a source and sink of data
13:56:29 <Steven> s/model/instance/
13:57:33 <Steven> Leigh: We have to find the right cut points so that people can mash up our functionalities
13:57:43 <Steven> ... otherwsie we will have nothing more than what we already have
13:57:49 <Steven> s/wsie/wise/
14:06:15 <nick> yes
14:07:00 <nick> yes that is correct Leigh
14:10:05 <Steven> Steven: There are several ways of doing this: a module that contains things that are optional; the paretn includes another module; a module inserts itself into its parent, or a driver combines two modules
14:13:40 <Steven> ... depends on what we want from the standalone modules
14:16:02 <Steven> John: We realise that there could be bind/submission etc in model, but it isn't the model module that mentions that
14:16:15 <Steven> Steven: I agree
14:17:23 <Steven> John: Well, how about the bind module
14:17:58 <Zakim> -unl
14:19:25 <Steven> Steven: Do we want bind to always exist in a model? I can imagine a doctype that allows binds, but with an implied model
14:19:39 <Steven> John: so is the model there, and invisible?
14:20:40 <Steven> ... I think there is always a model
14:22:21 <Steven> Leigh: This doesn't help the Javascript user
14:22:34 <Steven> ... to asy that there is an implied instance
14:22:39 <Steven> s/asy/say/
14:23:00 <Steven> ... better to say that the instance module is one way to provide those things
14:23:45 <Steven> ... but I don't want to rule out the other approach
14:26:10 <Steven> John: So are we any further on the model module?
14:26:44 <Steven> ... it has an element called model
14:27:01 <Steven> ... an abstraction of its content that other modules can contribute to
14:27:12 <Steven> Leigh: Submission, action, instance, bind
14:27:17 <Steven> John: Schema
14:34:14 <Steven> John: Take 5
14:34:22 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 5 to stop taking 5
14:34:22 <Zakim> ok, Steven
14:39:22 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time to stop taking 5
14:41:22 <nick> I can do it
14:41:34 <nick> Scribe: Nick
14:42:28 <nick> Leigh: I believe model only exist to hold other modules
14:43:23 <nick> Leigh: model is almost a container language
14:44:16 <nick> Leigh: model can import the instance module, but it should not import the submission module, the driver module should do this
14:44:57 <nick> Leigh: We don't know how to generalize the instance module for now, this can happen in the future
14:45:33 <Charlie> back
14:45:38 <nick> Leigh: Model can also import actions
14:46:49 <nick> s/can also import actions/can specify the extension point where actions can be plugged in/
14:47:34 <nick> Leigh:There is going to be more then one module that define actions
14:48:02 <nick> Leigh: It also defines a scope
14:50:12 <nick> John: Why would they use a model that only contains instance 
14:50:53 <nick> Leigh: Model should be as small as possible
14:51:37 <nick> John: Does it needs the actions?
14:51:45 <nick> Leigh: For the scoping
14:52:02 <nick> John: The binding attributes do the scoping
14:52:52 <nick> Leigh: The model shouldn't include the actions module, but should define a group where other modules can add actions to
14:53:51 <nick> Leigh: The model can include actions, data and the logic
14:54:34 <nick> Leigh: The modules should add them-self to those extension points
14:55:47 <nick> John: What are the layers
14:56:17 <nick> Leigh: presentation, data, data types and logic (bind and actions)
14:57:05 <nick> Charlie:SHould I take the actions out of the instance module?
14:57:45 <nick> John: The actions module is disappearing due to XML events 2
14:58:15 <nick> John: Top level bullet should be data layer
14:58:59 <nick> ... second is Scoping and containment specs build on top of that to build the logic layer
14:59:57 <nick> Leigh: Model does the scoping for xpath, and data types
15:00:55 <nick> John: It seems to a that we have a second set of things, a model module, a declarative way for logic behaviour
15:01:15 <nick> John: Bind, xml schema, MIPs seem to go together
15:02:46 <nick> John: The first bullet is the  data model layer 
15:04:26 <nick> John: The second was was called model module, it could be defined declarative logic layer
15:04:39 <nick> s/defined/called/
15:06:05 <nick> Leigh: The child specs should be consumable on their own
15:06:49 <nick> Charlie: Can we recap?
15:07:46 <nick> Charlie: now we have the data island (no actions) the second is the xforms instance which injects actions, is this still in sync with what we said today?
15:08:15 <nick> or should we create a third module wit the actions
15:08:44 <nick> John: It makes sense 
15:09:26 <nick> John: We should first figure out what the first buller point is, its child bullets and how they relate
15:11:08 <nick> Charlie: (Explains what the data island now contains)
15:11:35 <nick> John: What does the second module add
15:11:56 <nick> Charlie: The three actions
15:12:23 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
15:17:01 <nick> Leigh: Explains that we need to try  that insert and delete can target the events to the correct elements without importing the instance module
15:18:52 <nick> Leigh: Tries to solve the problem of decoupling with an instance attribute
15:19:40 <nick> John: I updated the wiki page
15:23:16 <nick> Leigh: XForms 1.2 will use the data minipulation module which imports the data island module, so the XForms 1.2 module doesn't imports the data island module
15:24:27 <Steven> s/minip/manip/
15:24:40 <Steven> s/imports/import/
15:24:57 <nick> Leigh: Solving the problem seems to be a lot of work, so I will rest my case, I'm out of ideas
15:25:52 <nick> John: src and resource should be added by the submission module
15:26:07 <nick> Charlie: What is the data island module doing then?
15:26:19 <nick> Leigh: Does it do inline data
15:26:27 <nick> Charlie: Yes
15:27:53 <nick> Charlie: It does the magic for creating the shadow DOM
15:29:29 <nick> Charlie: I don't see how we can do data manipulation without the data island
15:30:25 <nick> Leigh: instance has an id and defines the instance attribute to override the evaluation context
15:31:16 <nick> John: the data island already add instance function, but it could also introduce the attribute
15:32:25 <nick> Leigh: I say we should add the instance attribute to the SNB
15:33:47 <Roger> Roger has joined #forms
15:34:28 <nick> Leigh: The data island introduces the instance element, the instance function and the instance attribute in the SNB
15:34:52 <nick> Leigh: We remove rsc and resource attribute
15:35:37 <nick> Leigh: loadDocument will go away, instance IDL will stay
15:36:09 <nick> Leigh: The instance() should go to model because it is a scoping thing
15:36:38 <nick> John: It should stay because if you don't have the model you still need to instance function
15:37:38 <nick> John: Maybe the binding attributes module can add the instance() function, or maybe lower because you can do XPath without the binding attributes
15:37:56 <nick> John: Maybe we are doing to much modularization
15:38:42 <nick> zakim, unmute me
15:38:42 <Zakim> nick should no longer be muted
15:40:22 <nick> Leigh: Maybe you need to be able to go from element in the shadow dom to the id of the instance 
15:41:10 <nick> John: Updated wiki
15:43:26 <nick> The  data island  module
15:43:34 <nick> * instance element with possible single child element
15:43:40 <nick>  * IDL functions for getDocument() and replaceDocument()
15:43:50 <nick>  * The src and resource attributes are either added here or by submission
15:43:59 <nick> * Adds instance() to one of the XPath functions module
15:43:59 <nick>     * Adds our two parameter id() function to some XPath functions module
15:43:59 <nick>     * Add instance attribute with IDREF content that other modules can use to refer to identified instance elements 
15:44:43 <nick> s/getDocument/getInstanceDocument/
15:45:06 <nick> s/replaceDocument/replaceInstanceDocument/
15:45:19 <nick> Leigh: I wouldn't call it DOM
15:45:32 <nick> zakim, mute me
15:45:32 <Zakim> nick should now be muted
15:46:20 <nick> Leigh: Maybe it could return the element not the document, and replace will replace the root element not the document
15:46:55 <nick> zakim, unmute me
15:46:55 <Zakim> nick should no longer be muted
15:48:34 <nick> zakim, mute me
15:48:34 <Zakim> nick should now be muted
15:48:52 <nick> nick: don't we support comments as siblings of the root element
15:49:04 <nick> John: yes we do
15:49:25 <nick> Leigh: OK, I'm convinced it is a document not an element
15:50:47 <nick> John: I updated the bullets again
15:50:48 <nick> The  data island  module
15:50:48 <nick>     * Create instance element that provides data separately from the document
15:50:48 <nick>     * instance element may have id attribute and may have child element
15:50:48 <nick>     * Create instance attribute with IDREF content that other modules can use to refer to identified instance elements
15:50:48 <nick>     * Function for getInstanceDocument()
15:50:50 <nick>     * Function for replaceInstanceDocument()
15:50:52 <nick>     * The src and resource attributes are either added here or by submission
15:50:54 <nick>     * Adds instance() to one of the XPath functions module
15:50:56 <nick>     * Adds our two parameter id() function to some XPath functions module
15:51:32 <nick> John: Not sure about rsc and resource, they don't exactly do the same thing as submission
15:52:07 <nick> Charlie: Being able to get data from a remote location without the submission module would be nice
15:52:21 <nick> John: External data module?
15:53:30 <Steven> Thought - are src/resource just syntactic sugar for a [submission replace="instance"]?
15:55:04 <nick> Leigh: The manipulation module should add src and resource on the instance module
15:55:55 <nick> John: resource on submission behaves different then on the instance element
15:55:59 <nick> Leigh: OK
15:56:30 <nick> Leigh: It sounds optional
16:01:32 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
16:02:02 <nick> John: We say the instance function is optional to implemet
16:03:09 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
16:03:10 <Zakim> -wellsk
16:03:10 <Zakim> -Charlie
16:03:12 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:03:13 <Zakim> -Steven
16:03:14 <Zakim> -nick
16:03:14 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()9:00AM has ended
16:03:15 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Boyer, Charlie, wellsk, Steven, unl, nick, Leigh_Klotz
16:03:31 <Steven> zakim, remind me in 60 to stop eating and start talking
16:03:31 <Zakim> ok, Steven
16:14:16 <klotz> zakim, remind me periodically to stop talking and start listening
16:14:16 <Zakim> I don't understand you, klotz
16:18:06 <Roger> * !!amazing, how many things zakim, can do !!!
16:50:34 <Roger> Sorry, but I have to go.
16:50:47 <Roger> bye.
16:58:24 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()9:00AM has now started
16:58:26 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
16:59:56 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:00:07 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
17:00:07 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
17:02:08 <Zakim> +wellsk
17:02:09 <Zakim> -wellsk
17:02:09 <Zakim> +wellsk
17:02:24 <nick> zakim, code?
17:02:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
17:03:06 <Zakim> +??P27
17:03:17 <nick> zakim, I am ??P27
17:03:17 <Zakim> +nick; got it
17:03:24 <nick> zakim, mute me
17:03:24 <Zakim> nick should now be muted
17:03:32 <Zakim> Steven, you asked to be reminded at this time to stop eating and start talking
17:04:12 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
17:05:02 <klotz> http://xformstest.org/2008-10-15.txt
17:05:04 <John_Boyer> zakim, Leigh_Klotz is klotz
17:05:04 <Zakim> +klotz; got it
17:05:13 <John_Boyer> scribe: Leigh
17:09:37 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
17:09:37 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
17:09:39 <Zakim> +Steven
17:47:40 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
17:48:01 <unl> unl has joined #forms
17:49:25 <Zakim> +unl
17:50:03 <klotz> http://xformstest.org/2008-10-15.txt
17:51:20 <unl> zakim, mute me
17:51:20 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
18:28:06 <klotz> http://xformstest.org/2008-10-15.txt
18:29:17 <klotz> ACTION: John Boyer to add instance() and two-parameter id() functions to the binding attributes module.
18:29:17 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John
18:29:17 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer)
18:31:23 <nick> xhtml modularization does that
18:31:45 <nick> (multiple modules in one spec)
18:43:45 <klotz> http://xformstest.org/2008-10-15.txt
18:58:39 <Steven> +1
18:58:51 <unl> +1
18:58:58 <nick> +1 talk to you all tomorrow
18:59:05 <Steven> "Bye bye"
18:59:11 <unl> great work!
18:59:22 <Zakim> -nick
18:59:26 <Zakim> -wellsk
18:59:27 <Zakim> -Charlie
18:59:27 <Zakim> -klotz
18:59:28 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
18:59:28 <Zakim> -unl
18:59:45 <Zakim> -Steven
18:59:46 <Zakim> HTML_Forms()9:00AM has ended
18:59:47 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Boyer, Charlie, wellsk, nick, klotz, Steven, unl
19:04:13 <klotz> rrsagent, make minutes
19:04:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-forms-minutes.html klotz
20:16:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
20:18:41 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has left #forms