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16:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-rif-prd-irc
16:58:33 <csma> Meeting: RIF-PRD telecon Oct 7
16:58:39 <csma> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
16:58:53 <Zakim> SW_RIF(PRD)1:00PM has now started
16:58:55 <Zakim> +??P2
16:59:00 <csma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Oct/0005.html
16:59:43 <csma> csma has changed the topic to: 7 Oct RIF-PRD telecon; agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Oct/0005.html
17:00:31 <Zakim> +??P3
17:00:32 <Zakim> -??P3
17:00:32 <Zakim> +??P3
17:00:52 <ChanghaiKe> ChanghaiKe has joined #rif-prd
17:01:02 <csma> zakim, ??p3 is me
17:01:02 <Zakim> +csma; got it
17:01:12 <Zakim> +Paul_Vincent
17:01:18 <csma> zakim, ??p2 is ChanghaiKe
17:01:18 <Zakim> +ChanghaiKe; got it
17:01:58 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif-prd
17:02:01 <PaulVincent> PaulVincent has joined #rif-prd
17:02:31 <csma> agenda+ Organisation (telecon day/time, etc)
17:02:48 <PaulVincent> scibenick PaulVincent
17:02:48 <csma> agenda+ Actions in PRD
17:02:59 <Zakim> +StuartTaylor
17:03:08 <PaulVincent> scribenick: PaulVincent
17:03:14 <csma> agenda+ Principles, scope and priorities
17:03:24 <Zakim> +Gary
17:03:30 <csma> agenda+ AOB
17:03:39 <Gary> Gary has joined #rif-prd
17:04:22 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:04:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChanghaiKe, csma, Paul_Vincent, StuartTaylor, Gary
17:05:28 <PaulVincent> scribe: PaulVincent
17:06:25 <Hassan> mute me
17:06:52 <csma> ack st
17:07:03 <csma> zakim, stuarttaylor is hassan
17:07:03 <Zakim> +hassan; got it
17:07:34 <csma> next item
17:08:15 <PaulVincent> CSMA: check if dayofweek and timeofday is OK: any complaints
17:08:31 <PaulVincent> CK: OK if we keep to 1hr
17:09:54 <csma> next item
17:10:00 <PaulVincent> CSMA: keep DOWeek and TODay
17:11:11 <PaulVincent> CK: is this bind - need strawman
17:11:24 <ChanghaiKe> do is left as it is, we use bind instead to bind new variable to a new frame
17:11:35 <PaulVincent> Action: GH to propose bind
17:11:57 <Gary> did anybody get a chance to read http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Operational_semantics_of_actions
17:12:47 <PaulVincent> CSMA: other actions include modify, execute, ...
17:13:02 <Hassan> q+
17:13:09 <Gary> q+
17:13:10 <csma> ack has
17:14:32 <PaulVincent> HAK: assign is finer grained than assert (cf Java)
17:14:49 <ChanghaiKe> q+
17:14:52 <PaulVincent> HAK: remove and add object in assert/retract is not atomic
17:15:05 <PaulVincent> GH: assert can also be at the slot level
17:15:10 <csma> (bind ?x object(attr->?x) do(assign ?x value))
17:15:32 <csma> do(assert(object(attr->Value)))
17:16:46 <Gary> clarification - assert is only at the slot level
17:17:12 <ChanghaiKe> what does this mean? do we assert a whole object?
17:17:15 <Gary> - or you can assert a predicate
17:17:28 <csma> Assert(?o[attr->value])
17:18:31 <Gary> all - please look at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Operational_semantics_of_actions
17:18:58 <csma> Forall ?x (?x#FooBor) If condition then assert(?x[attr->value)
17:20:10 <PaulVincent> HAK: this is nonstandard notation
17:20:41 <csma> Assert(frame|atom)
17:20:51 <csma> New Var Class
17:22:27 <Hassan> q+
17:23:12 <PaulVincent> CSMA: proposed to use new for new objects and assert for updates
17:23:31 <csma> ack gary
17:24:00 <PaulVincent> GH: see PRD spec draft http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Operational_semantics_of_actions
17:24:18 <PaulVincent> CSMA: aside: looking at doing same for conditions
17:26:00 <csma> q?
17:26:01 <PaulVincent> GH: trying to combine operational and model theory
17:27:16 <PaulVincent> HAK: this has not been done before so id of concern
17:28:41 <Hassan> q-
17:28:43 <PaulVincent> HAK: overloading of assert is dangerous
17:30:07 <PaulVincent> HAK: PR engines assert objects not predicates
17:30:33 <PaulVincent> CSMA: assert is for facts (as is retract) in PR engines...
17:31:40 <csma> ack changh
17:32:37 <PaulVincent> CK: difference between propositional logic vs object logic
17:33:46 <PaulVincent> CK: assert into WM is the whole object - but this could be a bunch of triples in a single transaction
17:34:09 <Hassan> yes CK - this is what I meant by granularity 
17:36:10 <PaulVincent> GH: we don't have any semantics for object based behavior
17:36:35 <PaulVincent> GH: ... need to reuse frames etc from core 
17:37:18 <Hassan> q+
17:37:27 <PaulVincent> Main issue if translating OUT OF PRD ie recombining frames etc into object operations
17:37:45 <PaulVincent> CSMA: issue is one of serialization to map from objects to frames
17:37:59 <csma> ack hassan
17:38:40 <PaulVincent> HAK: issue is we need to be clear: choice is to assert triples that correspond to obj fields
17:40:08 <PaulVincent> CSMA: Example: JRules asserts an object with field values: serialized into XML means all values?
17:40:30 <PaulVincent> HAK: ... yes this is a series of asserts
17:41:29 <ChanghaiKe> JRules asserts an object at once
17:41:36 <PaulVincent> CSMA: Also need to avoid ambiguity
17:42:58 <PaulVincent> HAK: why no remove 
17:43:10 <PaulVincent> GH: ... this is retract
17:43:19 <csma> q?
17:43:21 <PaulVincent> CSMA: which was an issue for MK
17:45:34 <Hassan> can you post it?
17:45:36 <PaulVincent> GH: See example 2.1.1 in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD 
17:46:16 <PaulVincent> Action: CK to create an assert and assign object from JRules
17:47:53 <Gary> s/2.1.1/2.11
17:47:57 <PaulVincent> CSMA: needs to be atomic or not?
17:48:26 <PaulVincent> HAK: issue is of event in between the assert operations - atomic means its locked for the transaction...
17:48:38 <PaulVincent> +1 to HAK's concern
17:48:48 <ChanghaiKe> +1 to HAK concern
17:49:37 <PaulVincent> CSMA: Is there a semantic issue here ie can an engine have an interrupt in an retract-assert vs modify
17:50:01 <ChanghaiKe> I can give an example
17:50:04 <PaulVincent> GH: does this apply for fine-grain assert/retract
17:50:50 <PaulVincent> CK: example: truth maintenance system 
17:50:55 <ChanghaiKe> if temp > 120 then maintain alarm on network element
17:51:24 <PaulVincent> CK: if I remove temp then TMS would deduce larm not to be maintained
17:51:53 <PaulVincent> Of course this is the engine semantics, not the language ...
17:53:46 <PaulVincent> CSMA: remove value not object - is this still the same? 
17:54:03 <PaulVincent> CK: ... but I can't remove the sensor (ie a.temp)
17:55:08 <PaulVincent> GH: retract ([predicate|frame|object])
17:55:39 <csma> ?x: Device if ?x[value > 120] then assert(?x[alarm->True])
17:56:38 <PaulVincent> Do we need to prefix/postfix assert/retract ops with a marker eg external(object operation)
17:56:44 <Hassan> +1 with CK
17:56:46 <csma> ?x: Device if ?x[value > 240] and ?x[alarm->True] then Modify(?x[alarm->critical]
17:57:16 <PaulVincent> Note to CSMA: we are 5mins to end of call...
17:59:09 <PaulVincent> CK: paper exists that explains differences ?
17:59:29 <PaulVincent> Action: CK to find appropriate paper reference or example
18:01:03 <ChanghaiKe> http://blog.athico.com/2008/02/shadow-facts-what-you-always-wanted-to.html
18:02:01 <Zakim> -hassan
18:02:03 <Zakim> -Gary
18:02:16 <Zakim> -ChanghaiKe
18:02:35 <Zakim> -Paul_Vincent
18:02:36 <Zakim> -csma
18:02:37 <Zakim> SW_RIF(PRD)1:00PM has ended
18:02:39 <Zakim> Attendees were csma, Paul_Vincent, ChanghaiKe, Gary, hassan
18:02:54 <csma> rrsagent, make log public
18:03:01 <csma> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-rif-prd-minutes.html csma
18:06:16 <csma> csma has left #rif-prd