IRC log of wai-wcag on 2008-10-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:23:18 [RRSAgent]

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12:23:18 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-wai-wcag-irc

12:23:28 [MichaelC_WCAG]

rrsagent, make log world

12:23:34 [MichaelC_WCAG]

rrsagent, do not start a new log

12:23:35 [MichaelC_WCAG]

meeting: WCAG Face to Face Day 2

12:23:37 [MichaelC_WCAG]

chair: Gregg Vanderheiden

12:24:09 [MichaelC_WCAG]

agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2008/10/ftf-meeting#Thursday

12:24:24 [MichaelC_WCAG]

scribeOptions: -scribeOnly -final -implicitContinuations

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12:45:57 [Loretta]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/glance

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12:53:23 [Loretta]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20080926f2fprep/results#xq9

13:08:10 [Loretta]

sequence of characters that can be programmatically determined, where the sequence is expressing something in human language

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13:22:08 [Loretta]

language that is spoken, written or signed (through visual or tactile means) to communicate with humans

13:30:46 [greggvanderheiden]

http://trace.wisc.edu/wcag_wiki/index.php?title=Accessibility_Supported_Technology

13:49:04 [Ben]

Technologies can only be relied upon to conform to WCAG 2.0 if they are used in a way that is "accessibility supported."

13:59:37 [Ben]

scribe: Ben

14:00:21 [Ben]

Topic: Accessibility Supported Technology (Guidelines Language)

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14:50:09 [awk]

test

14:51:03 [awk]

The presence of a conforming alternative version does not effect the need to ensure compliance with each of the following for all content on the page, including content that is not relied on.

15:05:16 [Ben]

2nd sentence of conformance intro:

15:05:44 [Ben]

Finally, it describes what it means for to be accessibility-supported, since only accessibility-supported uses of technologies can be relied upon for conformance.

17:00:42 [Sofia]

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18:04:25 [Ben]

RESOLUTION: Accept changes related to accessibility-supported uses of technologies as amended. http://trace.wisc.edu/wcag_wiki/index.php?title=Accessibility_Supported_Technology#Edits_within_Conformance_requirements

18:10:07 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+

18:11:59 [Zakim]

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18:12:01 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+

18:13:39 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to ask What about technologies for which developer does not cooperate to fully populate uses into the database?

18:13:45 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to ask Who examines conflicts in test results? Technology developer? The maintaining entity? A review board of some kind?

18:13:51 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to ask Failures that cannot be replicated should be marked as "not replicated", not removed.

18:15:26 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to ask If the database is not used, what other mechanisms exist to provide evidence to substantiate claims that uses of a technology are accessibility support?

18:17:09 [Ben]

Topic: Accessibility Support

18:17:09 [awk]

q+

18:17:15 [awk]

q-

18:17:19 [Loretta]

q+ filtering on user agent and AT versions

18:17:23 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

18:17:33 [Loretta]

q+

18:18:24 [Ben]

q+

18:18:59 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack me

18:18:59 [Zakim]

MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to ask What about technologies for which developer does not cooperate to fully populate uses into the database? and to ask Who examines conflicts in test

18:19:03 [Zakim]

... results? Technology developer? The maintaining entity? A review board of some kind? and to ask Failures that cannot be replicated should be marked as "not replicated", not

18:19:03 [David_MacDonald]

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18:19:07 [Zakim]

... removed. and to ask If the database is not used, what other mechanisms exist to provide evidence to substantiate claims that uses of a technology are accessibility support?

18:19:16 [greggvanderheiden]

ack lorett

18:24:05 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ Katie

18:25:47 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack g

18:25:49 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack b

18:25:52 [greggvanderheiden]

ack ben

18:25:52 [awk]

q+

18:28:01 [greggvanderheiden]

ack kat

18:29:20 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

18:31:04 [greggvanderheiden]

q+ katie

18:31:18 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack a

18:36:29 [awk]

q+

18:37:26 [greggvanderheiden]

ack kat

18:37:32 [greggvanderheiden]

q+ alex

18:37:47 [greggvanderheiden]

ack G

18:37:52 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

18:39:54 [Loretta]

q+

18:41:10 [Andi]

q+

18:42:08 [Loretta]

ack awk

18:43:23 [Loretta]

ack alex

18:44:19 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to say we are still stuck with the CR exit requirement to document support for 2 technologies; but we'll be really smart to go in saying "during implementation it's the uses that matter, and here's a collection of uses that we propose be taken as the documentation for a given technology"

18:45:28 [greggvanderheiden]

ack mich

18:45:28 [Zakim]

MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to say we are still stuck with the CR exit requirement to document support for 2 technologies; but we'll be really smart to go in saying "during

18:45:31 [Zakim]

... implementation it's the uses that matter, and here's a collection of uses that we propose be taken as the documentation for a given technology"

18:46:51 [Loretta]

ack gr

18:47:43 [David_MacDonald]

q+

18:49:41 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack l

18:54:31 [greggvanderheiden]

q+ cynthia

18:55:05 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

18:56:41 [David_MacDonald]

q-

18:57:24 [Loretta]

ack andi

18:57:26 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to say I'm comfortable with database not being "the documentation", but I do think the accessibility support must require that there be replicable substantiation of any claim that a use is accessibility supported

18:57:49 [awk]

q+

18:58:55 [greggvanderheiden]

ack g

18:59:00 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

19:01:37 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack c

19:01:45 [Loretta]

q+

19:30:04 [greggvanderheiden]

ack m

19:30:04 [Zakim]

MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to say I'm comfortable with database not being "the documentation", but I do think the accessibility support must require that there be replicable

19:30:08 [Zakim]

... substantiation of any claim that a use is accessibility supported

19:30:15 [greggvanderheiden]

q+ cynthia

19:33:33 [Loretta]

ack awk

19:33:40 [greggvanderheiden]

ack a

19:34:45 [Loretta]

ack gr

19:38:58 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to say we need to demonstrate implementability of the accessibility support concept - we don't have to demonstrate a given implementation of it that is expected to be a long-term solution

19:40:46 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to say VPAT information is usually unsubstantiated and sometimes demonstrably false - we need accessibility support to require that the substantiation exist

19:42:53 [greggvanderheiden]

q+

19:43:02 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack l

19:47:12 [greggvanderheiden]

ack c

19:49:03 [Loretta]

q+

19:49:12 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to say I can support Cynthia's proposal *as long as the test files, procedures, and results are also published*

19:49:45 [Katie]

q+

19:50:00 [David_MacDonald]

q+

19:51:54 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to say the accessibility support database proposal is much like Consumer Reports and I think is fair use under copyright / trademark law

19:52:30 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack me

19:52:30 [Zakim]

MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to say we need to demonstrate implementability of the accessibility support concept - we don't have to demonstrate a given implementation of it that is

19:52:34 [Zakim]

... expected to be a long-term solution and to say VPAT information is usually unsubstantiated and sometimes demonstrably false - we need accessibility support to require that the

19:52:38 [Zakim]

... substantiation exist and to say I can support Cynthia's proposal *as long as the test files, procedures, and results are also published* and to say the accessibility support

19:52:43 [Zakim]

... database proposal is much like Consumer Reports and I think is fair use under copyright / trademark law

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WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has now started

19:56:44 [Zakim]

+??P0

19:56:56 [bengt]

zakim, ??P0 is Bengt_Farre

19:56:56 [Zakim]

+Bengt_Farre; got it

19:56:59 [MichaelC_WCAG]

MichaelC_WCAG has changed the topic to: FtF is finishing queue, will dial into call shortly

19:58:15 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, close queue

19:58:15 [Zakim]

ok, MichaelC_WCAG, the speaker queue is closed

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19:59:49 [Zakim]

+Bruce_Bailey

20:00:09 [MichaelC_WCAG]

MichaelC_WCAG has changed the topic to:

20:00:15 [Zakim]

-Bruce_Bailey

20:00:16 [Zakim]

+ +1.617.219.aaaa

20:00:18 [Zakim]

-Bengt_Farre

20:00:19 [Zakim]

+Bengt_Farre

20:00:24 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, +1.617 is FtF

20:00:24 [bengt]

?

20:00:25 [Zakim]

+FtF; got it

20:00:32 [bengt]

yes

20:00:33 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, open queue

20:00:33 [Zakim]

ok, MichaelC_WCAG, the speaker queue is open

20:00:36 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ cynthia

20:00:40 [Zakim]

+Bruce_Bailey

20:00:41 [bengt]

microfon is dead

20:01:27 [Zakim]

+??P3

20:01:38 [Zakim]

+Don_Evans

20:01:40 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, FtF has Gregg Vanderheiden, Ben Caldwell, Michael Cooper, Andrew Kirkpatrick, David MacDonald, Katie Haritos-Shea, Cynthia Shelly, Alex Li, Sofia Celic, Andi Snow-Weaver, Loretta Guarino Reid

20:01:40 [Zakim]

+Gregg, Vanderheiden, Ben, Caldwell, Michael, Cooper, Andrew, Kirkpatrick, David, MacDonald, Katie, Haritos-Shea, Cynthia, Shelly, Alex, Li, Sofia, Celic, Andi, Snow-Weaver,

20:01:44 [Zakim]

... Loretta, Guarino, Reid; got it

20:01:47 [rellero]

Zakim, ??P3 is Roberto_Ellero

20:01:47 [Zakim]

+Roberto_Ellero; got it

20:02:01 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, you drive me nuts sometimes!

20:02:01 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'you drive me nuts sometimes!', MichaelC_WCAG

20:02:08 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, tell Ralph that.

20:02:08 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'tell Ralph that', MichaelC_WCAG

20:03:04 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, who's your daddy?

20:03:04 [Zakim]

Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, MichaelC_WCAG

20:03:53 [Zakim]

-Bengt_Farre

20:04:49 [Zakim]

+??P0

20:04:54 [bengt]

zakim, ??P0 is Bengt_Farre

20:04:54 [Zakim]

+Bengt_Farre; got it

20:04:59 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Gregg Vanderheiden, Ben Caldwell, Michael Cooper, Andrew Kirkpatrick, David MacDonald, Katie Haritos-Shea, Cynthia Shelly, Alex Li, Sofia Celic, Andi Snow-Weaver, Loretta Guarino Reid is no longer in FtF

20:04:59 [Zakim]

I don't understand you, MichaelC_WCAG

20:05:16 [MichaelC_WCAG]

http://www.mibbit.com/

20:05:39 [Christophe]

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20:05:47 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Vanderheiden has left FtF

20:05:47 [Zakim]

-Vanderheiden; got it

20:06:00 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Caldwell, Cooper has left FtF

20:06:00 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'Caldwell, Cooper has left FtF', MichaelC_WCAG

20:06:06 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Caldwell and Cooper has left FtF

20:06:06 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'Caldwell and Cooper has left FtF', MichaelC_WCAG

20:06:13 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Caldwell, Cooper have left FtF

20:06:13 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'Caldwell, Cooper have left FtF', MichaelC_WCAG

20:06:18 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Caldwell has left FtF

20:06:18 [Zakim]

-Caldwell; got it

20:06:23 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Cooper has left FtF

20:06:23 [Zakim]

-Cooper; got it

20:06:24 [Zakim]

+Christophe_Strobbe

20:06:31 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Kirkpatrick has left FtF

20:06:31 [Zakim]

-Kirkpatrick; got it

20:06:37 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, MacDonald has left FtF

20:06:37 [Zakim]

-MacDonald; got it

20:06:44 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Haritos-Shea has left FtF

20:06:44 [Zakim]

-Haritos-Shea; got it

20:06:49 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Shelly has left FtF

20:06:49 [Zakim]

-Shelly; got it

20:06:54 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Li has left FtF

20:06:54 [Zakim]

-Li; got it

20:06:59 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Celic has left FtF

20:06:59 [Zakim]

-Celic; got it

20:07:05 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Snow-Weaver has left FtF

20:07:05 [Zakim]

-Snow-Weaver; got it

20:07:13 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Guarino has left FtF

20:07:13 [Zakim]

-Guarino; got it

20:07:18 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Reid has left FtF

20:07:18 [Zakim]

-Reid; got it

20:07:24 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, who's on the phone?

20:07:24 [Zakim]

On the phone I see FtF, Bruce_Bailey, Roberto_Ellero, Don_Evans, Bengt_Farre, Christophe_Strobbe

20:07:26 [Zakim]

FtF has Gregg, Ben, Michael, Andrew, David, Katie, Cynthia, Alex, Sofia, Andi, Loretta

20:16:23 [Katie]

q+

20:18:58 [awk]

q+

20:22:09 [Zakim]

-Roberto_Ellero

20:25:03 [rellero]

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20:25:23 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

20:25:38 [rellero]

zaki, [IPcaller is Roberto_Ellero

20:25:49 [rellero]

zakim, [IPcaller is Roberto_Ellero

20:25:49 [Zakim]

+Roberto_Ellero; got it

20:26:11 [rellero]

sorry, I am with 56K modem

20:29:02 [Sofia]

q+

20:30:29 [Sofia]

q+ to ask for clarification of the note associated with Accessibility Support Documentation - item 4 in the exit criteria

20:43:30 [Sofia]

ack katie

20:44:58 [Andi]

q+

20:49:22 [Zakim]

-Don_Evans

20:49:47 [Andi]

q-

20:50:56 [bailey]

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20:51:09 [bailey]

woot, i am in!

20:52:04 [David_MacDonald]

q-

20:55:20 [David_MacDonald]

q+

20:56:48 [Loretta]

q-

20:56:54 [greggvanderheiden]

q-

20:56:56 [Loretta]

q- cynthia

20:57:06 [Loretta]

q- awk

20:58:06 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack s

20:58:06 [Zakim]

Sofia, you wanted to ask for clarification of the note associated with Accessibility Support Documentation - item 4 in the exit criteria

21:03:27 [Zakim]

+ +1.301.933.aabb

21:07:11 [bailey]

q-

21:07:15 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, mute Tim

21:07:15 [Zakim]

sorry, MichaelC_WCAG, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Tim

21:07:30 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, Tim is Tim_Boland

21:07:30 [Zakim]

sorry, MichaelC_WCAG, I do not recognize a party named 'Tim'

21:07:45 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, +1.301 is Tim_Boland

21:07:45 [Zakim]

+Tim_Boland; got it

21:07:48 [MichaelC_WCAG]

zakim, mute Tim

21:07:48 [Zakim]

Tim_Boland should now be muted

21:12:34 [Loretta]

ack d

21:21:32 [awk]

q+

21:31:46 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to say the issue isn't buying products, it's the content being available to users (who never chose what product you bought)

21:34:51 [awk]

q-

21:34:59 [MichaelC_WCAG]

ack me

21:34:59 [Zakim]

MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to say the issue isn't buying products, it's the content being available to users (who never chose what product you bought)

21:34:59 [David_MacDonald]

q-

21:35:06 [David_MacDonald]

q-

21:37:56 [awk]

q+

21:39:37 [Zakim]

-Roberto_Ellero

21:46:51 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q+ to ask if we need to make any normative decisions before the end of the call in 15 minutes

21:59:36 [Zakim]

-Tim_Boland

22:15:54 [MichaelC_WCAG]

q-

22:16:23 [awk]

q-

22:22:58 [greggvanderheiden]

DEVELOPMENT OF TECHNIQUES AND ACCESSIBILITY SUPPORT FOR NEW TECHNOLOGIES

22:22:58 [greggvanderheiden]

1.Picked a technology

22:22:59 [greggvanderheiden]

2.Picked uses that were challenging – looked hard

22:22:59 [greggvanderheiden]

3.Mapped uses against Success Criteria

22:23:00 [greggvanderheiden]

4.Made sure there was something for each success criteria (or aspect of the SC) where it was needed and possible.

22:23:01 [greggvanderheiden]

5.Wrote a statement of what I was trying to do

22:23:02 [greggvanderheiden]

6.Created implementations to do that

22:23:04 [greggvanderheiden]

7.Used API to screen for problems

22:23:06 [greggvanderheiden]

8.(throughout I sent in bug reports and got them fixed)

22:23:08 [greggvanderheiden]

a.With product team

22:23:10 [greggvanderheiden]

b.With AT vendor(s)

22:23:12 [greggvanderheiden]

9.Tested with AT that I have

22:23:14 [greggvanderheiden]

10.(throughout I sent in bug reports and got them fixed)

22:23:16 [greggvanderheiden]

a.With product team

22:23:17 [Zakim]

-Bengt_Farre

22:23:19 [greggvanderheiden]

b.With AT vendor(s)

22:23:20 [greggvanderheiden]

DOCUMENTING THE ACCESSIBILITY SUPPORT ACROSS COMBINATIONS

22:23:22 [greggvanderheiden]

1.Took the techniques documented for the technology

22:23:24 [greggvanderheiden]

2.Broke out permutations where necessary

22:23:27 [greggvanderheiden]

3.Looked at all the features of the technology that related to user interface and would relate to accessibility

22:23:30 [greggvanderheiden]

a.(for programmatic language (script) look mostly at techniques to meet specific SC)

22:23:31 [greggvanderheiden]

4.Create test pages for each use

22:23:34 [greggvanderheiden]

5.Have different people test them with the AT/Platforms they have.

22:23:36 [greggvanderheiden]

6.Document combinations where they don't work and also situations (settings etc) where it works/not.

22:23:38 [greggvanderheiden]

WAYS OF DOCUMENTING ACCESSIBILITY SUPPORT

22:23:39 [greggvanderheiden]

1.Queriable base of data

22:23:42 [greggvanderheiden]

2.Report

22:23:44 [greggvanderheiden]

WHAT IF YOU WANT TO USE A TECHNIQUE THAT IS NOT IN DOCUMENTATION

22:23:45 [greggvanderheiden]

1.Test the technique yourself across AT/Platform combinations

22:23:47 [greggvanderheiden]

2.Ask Technology Vendor (or AT vendors) to test it

22:23:50 [greggvanderheiden]

a.(and potentially submit it for documentation for others’ use)

22:23:51 [greggvanderheiden]

WHAT IS BEING DONE TO PUBLICLY DOCUMENT ACCESSIBILITY SUPPORT OF W3C TECHNOLOGIES?

22:23:54 [greggvanderheiden]

1.Listing of the “uses” of the technology

22:23:55 [greggvanderheiden]

a.Ideally it would cover all uses that relate to success criteria that are AT dependent.

22:23:57 [greggvanderheiden]

2.Creating tests implementations of each of the uses

22:24:00 [greggvanderheiden]

3.Testing each of the uses

22:24:02 [greggvanderheiden]

4.Providing the results including a listing of the Permutations of OS/UA/AT+ extensions tested

22:24:04 [greggvanderheiden]

5.Providing the samples of the ‘uses’ that were used for testing (e.g. web page with compiled sample of the use) (allows reproducibility).

22:24:07 [greggvanderheiden]

a.The test samples are designed to be suitable across other permutations (allows expanding of the support testing beyond what was done) – but not required

22:31:44 [Zakim]

-Bruce_Bailey

22:31:50 [Zakim]

-FtF

22:31:54 [bailey]

bye

22:32:10 [Zakim]

-Christophe_Strobbe

22:32:11 [Zakim]

WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has ended

22:32:12 [Zakim]

Attendees were Bengt_Farre, Bruce_Bailey, +1.617.219.aaaa, Don_Evans, Gregg, Vanderheiden, Ben, Caldwell, Michael, Cooper, Andrew, Kirkpatrick, David, MacDonald, Katie,

22:32:16 [Zakim]

... Haritos-Shea, Cynthia, Shelly, Alex, Li, Sofia, Celic, Andi, Snow-Weaver, Loretta, Guarino, Reid, Roberto_Ellero, Christophe_Strobbe, [IPcaller], +1.301.933.aabb, Tim_Boland

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22:36:11 [MichaelC_WCAG]

rrsagent, make minutes

22:36:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC_WCAG

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