17:32:10 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:32:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc 17:32:24 rrsagent, set logs public 17:32:36 zakim, this will be wai_u 17:32:36 ok, jallan; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes 17:39:53 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0148.html 17:40:04 title: UAWG telecon 17:40:11 chair: Jim Allan 17:47:42 regrets: Mark_Hakkenin 17:51:46 KFord has joined #ua 17:52:41 tractbot, start telecon 17:53:36 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started 17:53:43 +[Microsoft] 17:54:16 zakim, [microsoft] is kford 17:54:16 +kford; got it 17:54:17 +jallan 17:54:20 jeanne has joined #ua 17:54:44 Chair: Jim_Allan 17:55:08 Scribe: KFord 17:56:49 Jan has joined #ua 17:56:50 Sure 17:57:32 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0148.html 17:57:43 s/Sure/ / 17:58:41 zakim, code? 17:58:41 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 17:59:17 sharper has joined #ua 18:00:17 +Jeanne 18:00:30 +??P8 18:00:53 Present: Jeanne, sharper, jallan, jan 18:01:02 zakim, ??P8 is sharper 18:01:02 +sharper; got it 18:02:08 +??P9 18:02:21 zakim, ??P9 is really Jan 18:02:21 +Jan; got it 18:02:26 judy has joined #ua 18:02:34 Present: JBrewer 18:02:39 zakim, dial judy-office 18:02:39 ok, judy; the call is being made 18:02:41 +Judy 18:05:22 Topic: F2F Agenda 18:05:29 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/10f2f#Agenda 18:06:23 Jeanne: Should we include other time zones. 18:07:33 A 18:07:59 Action: Jeanne to update F2F with GMT times plus local times. 18:07:59 Created ACTION-25 - Update F2F with GMT times plus local times. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-09]. 18:10:07 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html 18:10:47 KFord: Any thought of splitting document review into two days? 18:11:18 JBrewer: Jeanne, can you update document with review priorities we wanted to use? 18:11:43 Action: Jeanne, update document review sections with review priorities. 18:11:43 Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeanne, 18:12:29 Jeanne: Suggest to use afternoon for issues time. 18:15:23 JAllen: I suggest we put document review to mornings and technical to afternoon. 18:16:10 Action: Jeanne update agenda to reflect change in plans. 18:16:10 Created ACTION-26 - Update agenda to reflect change in plans. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-09]. 18:18:09 Jallan: we don't have keyboard on F2F. Can we power through remianing items. 18:18:18 Topic: Keyboard access 18:18:48 SHarper had proposal of six rewrites to keyboard override., 18:18:57 4.1.xx Simon rewrite http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0149.html 18:19:35 zakim, call jeanne-work 18:19:35 ok, jeanne; the call is being made 18:19:36 +Jeanne 18:19:55 Jallan: Jan indicated on mail list he liked option 1. 18:20:10 Jallan: I agreed this was the best. 18:20:43 Sharper: Can someone explain the recognized part? 18:21:33 JAN: It means that the user agent has to know this is a key binding. For accesskeys it knows what to do. For AJAX controls/javascript, the browser will likely not know what this key is for e.g. data entry, command. 18:22:19 Jallan: Further explanation, there are black holes where the user agent doesn't know what the key is for, again AJAX and such. 18:23:10 SHarper: This makes sense, my thinkin g was to start with accesskey. But do we need to know more than this. But do we need to do more. 18:23:35 For example, if ctrl+a is pressed, and the user has mapped to ctrl+k, does it really matter. 18:24:00 SHarper: the key was still pressed so the user wants this to be ctrtl+k. 18:24:45 JAN: Restates SHarper explanation, talking about at a higher level, process the keyboard action before anything else happens. Doesn't matter why. 18:24:57 Sharper: My last suggestion was to reflect this. 18:25:27 q+ 18:25:59 JAllan: I'm not sure if this is correct but my recollection from last F2F was that scripts, then accesskey then chrome gets keys. Not sure we can do anything about this. 18:26:42 JAN: I see what you are saying but UA could still do this. This would be just a top level mapping. 18:27:52 q+ 18:27:55 KFord: browser makes choices of where keys go. 18:28:10 q- 18:28:54 q+ to explain that what she meant was that having to shift the associations disrupts "everyone" (e.g. users' learned key binding associations) not that the background phone ringing did 18:29:07 KF: I need to check but in IE, we always take alt-D...before AJAX 18:29:31 KF: I'm not 100% but I know we spent lots of time making this work 18:30:00 q+ 18:30:42 JBrewer: IF WaI were to issue guidelines that siad change what you've learned, probably wouldn't fly. 18:31:21 q- 18:31:29 ack Jan 18:31:38 yes 18:31:50 Scribe: Jan 18:32:18 SH: JR is right...I'm remapping at high level...alt D can still work 18:32:36 SH: Not even saying what needs to pick things up first 18:32:55 SH: Just a matter of what keys I want to press to activate what's there 18:33:47 JA: While you were talking I wish Al was here... 18:34:01 JA: Lots of keyboard mapping ATs out there. 18:34:15 JA: Maybe we are asking too much of base browsers 18:34:21 JB: Triple A? 18:34:29 JA: THink it's double A 18:34:51 JB: I'm concerned about the increasing complexity here 18:35:10 JB: Weren't we also going to check with PF on this 18:35:26 JB: To make sure we weren't going to collide with them 18:35:40 JA: I remember proposal...but no action item was created 18:36:04 JR: why a collision? 18:36:15 JA: PF working on access key stuff 18:37:15 JAN: We were talking about accesskey mapping and we were talking at a higher level than content. We are talking before keys are used for anything. 18:37:18 Action JA: Talk to PF about the issue of key remapping 18:37:18 Created ACTION-27 - Talk to PF about the issue of key remapping [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-09]. 18:37:27 SHarper: Yes, this is what I'm talking about. 18:38:03 SH: Not specific to access keys 18:38:54 JA: But it is specific 18:39:05 JAN: I think in UAAG 1 there was a separate checkpoint addressing key mappings for the browser frame. This is a way to combine these. 18:39:23 JR: In old UAAG 1.0...there were weparte checkpoints for remapping keys to chrome and keys to content 18:39:39 KFord: I will also talk to one of our developers here. 18:40:03 JAllan: I will send to the group and then send to PF. Let's table this for now. 18:41:20 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html 18:41:52 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable 18:42:25 zakim, who's here? 18:42:25 On the phone I see kford, jallan, Jeanne, sharper, Jan, Judy, Jeanne 18:42:26 On IRC I see judy, sharper, Jan, jeanne, KFord, RRSAgent, Zakim, jallan, trackbot 18:44:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open 18:45:25 KFord, interesting phone echos, cats and other such items. 18:46:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0127.html 18:50:43 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open 18:52:01 Meeting pauses to review open action items at above URL and close as appropriate. 18:53:20 Action: Jeanne update agenda to include breaks/lunch. 18:53:20 Created ACTION-28 - Update agenda to include breaks/lunch. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-09]. 18:54:17 kford: Review of action items concludes. 18:54:44 Jallan: Now talking about 4.10 and 4.X. 18:55:42 JAN: We talked about this before. The new issue here was to drop within and the new thing was to go within groups. 18:55:50 Action: Jallan review 4.11. 18:55:50 Created ACTION-29 - Review 4.11. [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-09]. 18:56:44 Topic: 4.2 Provide access to event handleers. 18:57:11 4.2.1 All Available: The user can activate, through keyboard input alone, all input device event handlers (including those for pointing devices, voice, etc.) that are explicitly associated with the element designated by the content focus. 18:57:18 me Jim are you pasting this? 19:00:30 KFord: KFord today I don't know of a user agent that really does all of this. Further explanation. 19:01:13 JAN: There are some practical problems with this. Gave example of complex mouse interactions. 19:02:02 KF: When I think about this...problem today...2 categories...supplemenetal functionality... 19:02:24 KF: User agent lets you get to link with TAB but not the mouse actions... 19:03:09 KF: ex. imagine I have website...I write some HTML...click here to go to my Free offer 19:03:24 KF: In script onclick go here...makes a link 19:03:35 KF: Keyboard user locked out 19:04:15 KF: Could we argue that UA should allow access to this 19:04:34 KF: This is already saying this to some extent....but I'm talking about onclick 19:05:13 KF: But supporting all of the other actions would be too much 19:05:24 JR: So you are saying onclick is best bang for the buck 19:05:27 KF: Yes 19:05:41 KF: Thinking about what's practical 19:06:05 JS: Think we could approach...user agent should "repair"... 19:06:26 Jeanne: I think we should could approach this from the approach of repair. 19:06:33 JA: This one is really further expansion of 4.1.1...all functions should be avaialble from the keyboard 19:07:07 \JAllan: I think this is just a narrowing of our top level requirement that all functionality be available from the keyboard. 19:08:30 KF: Not realistic always...because mouse has different interaction model 19:08:43 KF: But on flip side not saying I want to lock users out 19:08:59 KF: I'm not a mouse user.... 19:09:42 KF: So what are things you do with mouse that are actually too tedious for keyboard users...maybe answer is don't limit people. 19:10:30 JB: One behaviour is significant level of muscle weakness/fatigue...becomes tiring to move hands alot or do a repeated motion... 19:10:55 JB: Condition can be extremely variable...sometimes even hard to move from mouse to keyboard 19:11:19 JB: Irony then is it is best to do all with keyboard or all with mouse 19:11:37 JB: THink this is sometimes misunderstood 19:12:14 KF: OK, but at what point would you think an AT should come into play vs. base funtionality 19:12:28 KF: e.g. all OS's have mousekeys 19:12:44 KF: We aren't asking for screen readers for eg. 19:13:02 JB: I think every command function should be interoperable with AT....no question 19:13:46 KF: Assumption that screen readers are mature enough to demand interoperability from UAs 19:14:07 JB: Prob with that this APIs aren't completely in place. 19:15:14 KF: Here's how you might write this (in extreme): you have to be able to do everything you can do with mouse with the keyboard or support the platform's AT interoperablity mechanism 19:15:26 KF: Doesn't have to build it in directly 19:15:34 JB: Don't we say that? 19:16:12 KF: Not today...I don't think it's ok to say I don't need to do that because OS has mousekeys 19:16:45 missed JB's clarification 19:17:05 KF: I think if one of 2 ways works, you've satisfied basic level of access 19:17:27 KF: Works like "all" make it hard to see what UA should do 19:17:36 s/Don't we say that?/Isn't it already the expectation that applications should support existing on-board access features such as mousekeys? 19:17:39 JA: I've been enjoying discussion...valuable 19:18:06 JA: Yeah we can fall back to mousekeys...but then we're missing out on effeciency 19:18:42 JA: Also think there is a host of things...e.g. tooltips or title tags ...which I think are events...can't come up with keyboard... 19:18:53 JA: I think that hampers keyboard users 19:19:11 JA: At the same time, it's a crossover issue...WAI ARIA... 19:19:16 JA: And also WCAG2 19:19:36 KF: OK...bit of tangent...I'm a fan of ARIA...but it opens lots of new problems... 19:19:42 KF: ARIA is dangerous... 19:20:00 KF: In 2 seconds I can call any peice of HTML a new role.... 19:20:23 KF: So it's entirely implicit on author to make things behave like trees.... 19:20:38 KF: And guess what...it won't act like a tree most of the time 19:20:54 q+ 19:21:05 JA: Right and outside TAB tree 19:21:16 KF: Don't want to be a fear monger 19:21:28 KF: I've made the same points in other places 19:21:35 KF: But concerns me greatly 19:21:54 KF: Same thing as custom controls in Win32 19:23:09 JR: Hope is a toolbox like DOJO will do all the work 19:23:54 KF: Not sure about that...I see examples of companies trying to be on leading edge...doing their own thing 19:24:09 q- 19:24:39 KF: Part of me says hey user agent...if that thing was called a tree, make it work...but of course that's not practical\ 19:24:52 JA: All these are relevant issues 19:25:05 JA: But back to 4.2.1... 19:25:46 Jallan: Does our wording work? 19:26:02 JAN: I don't think you can just say fire them all. 19:26:30 JAN: Gave example of complex mouse events again. 19:27:10 JA: To me...maybe we needto change wording....but onmouseover same as onfocus is more like a technique 19:27:35 Jallan: I think saying things like onmouseover should move focus and such needs to be in a technique. 19:28:16 JAN: Need some technique to have some wiggle room. 19:28:32 JR: So some instead of all input device handlers 19:28:51 KF: What does the section 508 redraft say? 19:29:26 KF: Most access guidelines say it like this...but then we redefine somewhere else and say all doesn't mean all. 19:29:44 JB: I'd have to check 508. 19:30:32 JA: If I have some item...more than one action can fire 19:30:56 KF: I can build a whole flyout menu... 19:31:17 KF: But I would argue that content author has failed already 19:31:38 JA: I see it's endd of our time 19:31:44 JB: Interesting discussion 19:32:50 JB: Anyone want an action item on 4.1.2? 19:32:58 JB: Anyone want an action item on 4.2.1? 19:33:18 Action: kford, JAllan to revisit access 19:33:18 Sorry, couldn't find user - kford, 19:34:10 Action: KF, Jallen to revisit keyboard access and definiton of all and such. 19:34:10 Sorry, couldn't find user - KF, 19:34:47 -Judy 19:34:54 -Jan 19:35:00 -sharper 19:35:14 rrsagent, make minutes 19:35:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-minutes.html KFord 19:35:30 -Jeanne 19:35:51 -jallan 19:36:41 zakim, please part 19:36:41 leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, jallan, Jeanne, sharper, Jan, Judy 19:36:41 Zakim has left #ua 19:37:50 s/JAllen/JAllan 19:38:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:38:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-minutes.html KFord 19:40:28 Present: JBrewer, Jeanne, JAllan, Sharper, Jan, KFord 19:40:39 rrsagent, make minutes 19:40:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-minutes.html KFord 19:43:35 Title: W3C UAG 10/2/2008 19:43:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:43:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-minutes.html KFord 19:51:05 rrsagent, please part 19:51:05 I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-actions.rdf : 19:51:05 ACTION: Jeanne to update F2F with GMT times plus local times. [1] 19:51:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc#T18-07-59 19:51:05 ACTION: Jeanne, update document review sections with review priorities. [2] 19:51:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc#T18-11-43 19:51:05 ACTION: Jeanne update agenda to reflect change in plans. [3] 19:51:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc#T18-16-10 19:51:05 ACTION: JA to Talk to PF about the issue of key remapping [4] 19:51:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc#T18-37-18 19:51:05 ACTION: Jeanne update agenda to include breaks/lunch. [5] 19:51:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc#T18-53-20 19:51:05 ACTION: Jallan review 4.11. [6] 19:51:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc#T18-55-50 19:51:05 ACTION: kford, JAllan to revisit access [7] 19:51:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc#T19-33-18 19:51:05 ACTION: KF, Jallen to revisit keyboard access and definiton of all and such. [8] 19:51:05 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-ua-irc#T19-34-10