IRC log of xhtml on 2008-10-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:40:18 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:40:18 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:40:38 [RolandMerrick]
Zakim, this will be XHTML2
13:40:38 [Zakim]
ok, RolandMerrick; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:40:47 [RolandMerrick]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:40:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate RolandMerrick
13:40:56 [RolandMerrick]
rrsagent, make log public
13:41:20 [oedipus]
roland, did you send out an agenda? there isn't an "october" section of the list archive
13:42:08 [oedipus]
13:42:09 [Roland]
Roland has joined #xhtml
13:42:42 [Tina]
No agenda received here atleast.
13:44:30 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
13:44:37 [Zakim]
13:44:44 [oedipus]
Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
13:44:49 [oedipus]
ScribeNick: oedipus
13:45:22 [oedipus]
chair: Roland_Merrick
13:45:28 [Zakim]
13:45:30 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:45:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:45:30 [Zakim]
13:45:32 [Zakim]
13:45:43 [Zakim]
13:46:16 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Announcements & Agenda Shaping
13:46:26 [oedipus]
RM: move forward from where we were last week
13:46:31 [oedipus]
13:46:52 [oedipus]
regrets: Mark_Birbeck
13:47:00 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:47:25 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:47:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:47:56 [Zakim]
13:48:05 [oedipus]
meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Telecon
13:48:14 [Roland]
Chair: Roland
13:48:52 [oedipus]
mute, Tina
13:48:56 [oedipus]
zakim, mute Tina
13:48:56 [Zakim]
Tina should now be muted
13:49:07 [oedipus]
zakim, unmute Tina
13:49:07 [Zakim]
Tina should no longer be muted
13:49:23 [oedipus]
zakim, who is making noise?
13:49:27 [Roland]
Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:49:32 [alessio]
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13:49:34 [Zakim]
oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Tina (45%), Roland (53%)
13:49:48 [ShaneM]
zakim, mute tina
13:49:48 [Zakim]
Tina should now be muted
13:50:01 [oedipus]
RM: action item review from last week
13:50:05 [Roland]
actions at:
13:50:10 [oedipus]
RM: tracker now looking after actions and issues now
13:50:39 [oedipus]
GJR notes that one should be able to bookmark a "my tracker" link for bookmarking if don't have one already
13:50:49 [oedipus]
RM: actions from last week didn't get into tracking system
13:50:57 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
13:50:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina (muted), Roland, ShaneM
13:50:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see alessio, ShaneM, Roland, RRSAgent, Zakim, Tina, oedipus, trackbot
13:51:22 [Roland]
last weeks actions:
13:51:44 [oedipus]
RM: 1 to shane to reply to comments; created draft - i and steven replied
13:51:50 [oedipus]
SM: no other replies received
13:51:59 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1 to reply
13:52:06 [oedipus]
RM: send response
13:52:15 [oedipus]
SM: will make SP's suggested change and send out
13:52:27 [oedipus]
RM: media type heuristic samples from SP to Tina
13:52:31 [Tina]
Zakim, unmute me
13:52:31 [Zakim]
Tina should no longer be muted
13:52:52 [oedipus]
TH: being integrated as we speak - hope to publish by friday, will let list know
13:52:52 [Tina]
Zakim, mute me
13:52:52 [Zakim]
Tina should now be muted
13:53:17 [oedipus]
RM: still have to deal with @target - TH, didn't you take action item on that?
13:53:26 [oedipus]
TH: yes - assigned last week
13:53:28 [Tina]
I have some thoughts on the topic, but will assemble them later.
13:53:32 [oedipus]
13:54:00 [oedipus]
RM: CURIE syntax -- should have something shortly from TAG
13:54:27 [oedipus]
SM: didn't know there were 2 tag mailing lists, so didn't know was second list until recently
13:54:34 [oedipus]
13:55:01 [oedipus]
SM: providing us with language to make us happy, but misquoted the document by suggesting new wording for an issue that doesn't exist - misquote def of lexical space
13:55:11 [oedipus]
SM: as long as it is not wrong, just do it
13:55:39 [oedipus]
RM: team meeting on modularization this week
13:56:30 [oedipus]
GJR: also @lang discussion
13:56:37 [oedipus]
RM: in latest mime-type document
13:56:56 [oedipus]
TOPIC: From the Back Burner to the Front
13:57:09 [oedipus]
RM: hoped to get new XHTML2 draft out, but waiting on cleaning of other docs
13:57:20 [oedipus]
SM: XML Events 2, and CURIEs and Access
13:57:33 [oedipus]
RM: all others moving through system; XML Events 2 stalled on way to LC
13:57:45 [oedipus]
SM: waiting on comments from forms group as i recall
13:57:53 [oedipus]
RM: asked them a question?
13:57:56 [oedipus]
SM: yes
13:58:37 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:58:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
13:59:06 [oedipus]
SM: SP had action to convey to forms; can't remember action
13:59:09 [oedipus]
RM: me neither
13:59:18 [oedipus]
RM: change of names - "dispatch" and the like...
13:59:36 [oedipus]
RM: SM do you have handle on issues
13:59:54 [oedipus]
SM: no outstanding issues, except we asked XForms for one thing because we didn't know what to do?
13:59:59 [oedipus]
RM: timing questions?
14:00:07 [oedipus]
SM: when are you fed registers?
14:00:08 [Roland]
14:00:22 [oedipus]
RM: reply to SP's question on this
14:00:56 [oedipus]
RM: question posed - wasn't it originally markB's question?
14:01:23 [oedipus]
RM: question is: can we be specific - expect before document is ready?
14:01:36 [oedipus]
RM: farther into events or can you specify before
14:01:39 [oedipus]
SM: before what?
14:01:51 [oedipus]
RM: don't know - just trying to interpret their message
14:02:31 [oedipus]
SM: unfortunate that we have to come up with an answer -- it is a DOM issue
14:03:07 [oedipus]
RM: what can we rely on - execution of script during loading process - will be available before any user interactions?
14:03:19 [oedipus]
RM: inspired by XForms
14:03:38 [oedipus]
SM: most UAs allow user interaction beforeDOMReady, so don't know if we can make such a statement
14:04:12 [oedipus]
RM: that's my point and why have to defer to DOM -- if present events prior to DomReady, can't tell you about it until DOMReady
14:04:46 [oedipus]
RM: should pose question to DOM3 guys - had joint call with them previously (month or so ago)
14:05:16 [oedipus]
RM: call with Doug Schepers - take back to doug and DOM guys and say "interesting question: what do YOU suggest?"
14:05:20 [oedipus]
SM: reasonable
14:06:09 [oedipus]
ACTION: Roland - write to DOM3 guys on when registration will occur and when events can be fired; coordinate deeper discussion
14:06:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1 - - write to DOM3 guys on when registration will occur and when events can be fired; coordinate deeper discussion [on Roland Merrick - due 2008-10-08].
14:06:27 [oedipus]
RM: led to second question: should listeners be "live"?
14:06:43 [oedipus]
RM: "should listeners react?"
14:06:55 [oedipus]
RM: answer proposed interesting, but not sure that i agree with it
14:07:15 [oedipus]
RM: what is point of addListener - after executed expect that listener to be working
14:08:01 [oedipus]
SM: my view is that the various XML Events attributes are processed atomically at some point in initialization process, so think have to act as if all initialized at once
14:08:21 [oedipus]
RM: if add to DOM via script, want it to run pre-DOMReady or while loads
14:09:53 [oedipus]
SM: if i had a script which provided new content that included an addListener; as part of my inner HTML call, going to trigger DOM mutation event, so some handler could know that there had been a change to the DOM and go and process it, but if implemented XML Events handler in javascript (client-side thing not built into UA) don't know when going to get event or if get reliably; don't want to have to traverse entire tree
14:10:09 [oedipus]
SM: mutation events ocur in nodes, could walk down them - ugly, but doable
14:10:16 [oedipus]
RM: what author expects to happen
14:10:35 [oedipus]
GJR: would be good for Assistive Tech being prepared to use expert handler
14:11:07 [oedipus]
RM: answer to listener live: yes; ignore if DOM mutation adds addListener should be processed as happens
14:11:20 [oedipus]
SM: similarly, if Listener elements are removed, then what
14:11:52 [oedipus]
RM: when add and remove -- what is processing model for segment -- if remove listener, that is fine (presumably executed at right time)
14:12:17 [oedipus]
RM: if remove second node, may not get there anyway by DOM because nodes wouldn't generate any events because no longer exist
14:13:25 [oedipus]
SM: shoe-horning declarative event model; DOM Event collection (stack for every event, lists handlers in bubbling order) -- if removing or adding nodes to DOM could pose problems;
14:13:44 [oedipus]
SM: think way UAs work today, if use script element with AddEvent call in it, would that get executed?
14:13:53 [oedipus]
SM: pretty sure answer is no
14:14:04 [oedipus]
RM: if in function, and that function invoked, then would get executed
14:14:06 [oedipus]
SM: sure
14:15:25 [oedipus]
SM: if, for example, you implement listener through XML Events 2 declarative statements, and then you register handler that uses the listener (this event will result in action x in listener) - if remove from DOM, what would happen? thing in the DOM is not the script but something that told XML engine how to create an listener - not bound to DOM node anymore
14:15:34 [oedipus]
SM: how i envision this model
14:16:19 [oedipus]
RM: need to explore and map out actions: notification of events, removal of listings, should describe these scenarios
14:17:47 [oedipus]
RM: XHR inserts code into DOM, when register listener should be able to assert when -- will continue to explore possibilities and what happens with registration and deregistration of listeners at load time and at unload; use XML Events as alternate for script need to define these options
14:18:25 [oedipus]
ACTION: Roland - explore possibilities and what happens with registration and deregistration of listeners at load time and at unload
14:18:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2 - - explore possibilities and what happens with registration and deregistration of listeners at load time and at unload [on Roland Merrick - due 2008-10-08].
14:18:28 [Roland]
14:18:34 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:18:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:18:54 [oedipus]
TOPIC: XForms Group Feedback
14:19:07 [oedipus]
RM: may have investigated - use @target in other places for other things
14:19:30 [Roland]
14:20:23 [oedipus]
RM: "dispatch element" in XForms, we have "dispatch event"
14:20:44 [oedipus]
RM: minutes from february f2f to find how "dispatch event" got in
14:21:13 [oedipus]
ACTION: Roland - review XML Events 2 issues comprehensively;
14:21:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3 - - review XML Events 2 issues comprehensively; [on Roland Merrick - due 2008-10-08].
14:21:37 [oedipus]
RM: may thrash out at face2face and break-outs - will try to get as much info to the WG before F2F
14:21:48 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Role Module Status
14:21:58 [oedipus]
RM: where are we with Role? waiting on CURIEs?
14:22:15 [oedipus]
SM: had comments from XML CG - just responded to them and posted to list
14:22:30 [oedipus]
SM: waiting for CURIE transition before advance Role and Access
14:22:37 [oedipus]
RM: anything outstanding with Access?
14:22:45 [oedipus]
SM: some editorial changes, mostly just waiting
14:23:20 [oedipus]
RM: Steven made changes to vocabulary document - should cover response to CG
14:23:26 [oedipus]
RM: ready to adjourn?
14:23:30 [oedipus]
GJR: second the motion
14:23:57 [oedipus]
SM: use balance of time to respond to simon about xhtml mime document
14:24:10 [oedipus]
14:24:18 [Zakim]
14:24:20 [Zakim]
14:24:20 [Zakim]
14:24:23 [Zakim]
14:24:24 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:24:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina, Roland, ShaneM
14:24:34 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
14:24:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #xhtml
14:24:47 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:24:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:25:28 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
14:25:28 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in :
14:25:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Roland - write to DOM3 guys on when registration will occur and when events can be fired; coordinate deeper discussion [1]
14:25:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:25:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Roland - explore possibilities and what happens with registration and deregistration of listeners at load time and at unload [2]
14:25:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:25:28 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Roland - review XML Events 2 issues comprehensively; [3]
14:25:28 [RRSAgent]
recorded in