IRC log of ua on 2008-09-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:50:49 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #ua
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- logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc
- 17:51:03 [jallan]
- rrsagent, set logs public
- 17:52:04 [jallan]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0145.html
- 17:52:26 [jallan]
- Title: UAWG telecon 25 Sept 2008
- 17:52:36 [jallan]
- Chair: Jim_Allan
- 17:56:45 [sharper]
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- 17:56:46 [Zakim]
- WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
- 17:56:53 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 17:57:59 [jeanne]
- zakim, code?
- 17:57:59 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
- 17:58:19 [Zakim]
- +Jeanne
- 17:58:36 [jeanne]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is KFord
- 17:58:36 [Zakim]
- +KFord; got it
- 17:58:54 [Zakim]
- + +1.512.233.aaaa
- 17:59:36 [jallan]
- zakim, +1.512.233.aaaa is jallan
- 17:59:36 [Zakim]
- +jallan; got it
- 18:00:00 [Jan]
- Jan has joined #ua
- 18:00:08 [Jan]
- zakim, code?
- 18:00:08 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Jan
- 18:00:39 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 18:00:42 [sharper]
- zakim, ??P3 is sharper
- 18:00:42 [Zakim]
- +sharper; got it
- 18:01:09 [Zakim]
- +??P4
- 18:01:22 [Jan]
- zakim, ??P4 is really Jan
- 18:01:22 [Zakim]
- +Jan; got it
- 18:01:44 [judy]
- judy has joined #ua
- 18:01:51 [judy]
- zakim, dial judy-office
- 18:01:51 [Zakim]
- ok, judy; the call is being made
- 18:01:53 [Zakim]
- +Judy
- 18:01:55 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable
- 18:04:53 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable
- 18:05:23 [KFord]
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- 18:06:21 [KFord]
- JAllen: deal with agenda for face to face.
- 18:06:35 [KFord]
- agreement from all.
- 18:07:01 [jallan]
- issues list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0144.html
- 18:07:03 [KFord]
- llen: came up with some issues printing and such. JAllen posting list.
- 18:08:50 [KFord]
- Discussion of printing proposal.
- 18:09:06 [KFord]
- JBrewer: Do we need to do things to preparee
- 18:09:44 [KFord]
- JAllen: review proposal, ensure we have everything outlined.
- 18:10:10 [KFord]
- discussion of who will be attending.
- 18:10:40 [KFord]
- SHarper traveling, may be calling.
- 18:10:48 [KFord]
- JAN, still working details out.
- 18:10:58 [KFord]
- KFord hopefully know more after tomorrow.
- 18:11:39 [KFord]
- trackbot, start telecon
- 18:11:39 [trackbot]
- Sorry, KFord, I don't understand 'trackbot, start telecon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
- 18:12:28 [KFord]
- JAllen: other issue is keyboard.
- 18:13:00 [KFord]
- JAllen: anything else?
- 18:13:05 [KFord]
- silence.
- 18:13:22 [KFord]
- JAllen: The other issue is video.
- 18:13:44 [KFord]
- JAllen: We had done some back in March, had some discussion. Not sure we moved beyond the presentation.
- 18:14:50 [KFord]
- Scribe: KFord
- 18:15:27 [KFord]
- JAllen: Have concern around currnet guideline assumes we have an external player.
- 18:15:48 [KFord]
- JAllen: With HTML5 we are looking at native playing in the browser itself.
- 18:16:06 [Jan]
- q+
- 18:16:07 [KFord]
- JAllen: How do we cover something that's in such a state of flux?
- 18:16:52 [KFord]
- JAN: I think as a general rule any content can be handled either natively or by a plug-in. We cover this situation in general.
- 18:17:15 [KFord]
- JAN: Gave example of some native things Firefox does today.
- 18:17:49 [jallan]
- KF: guidelines cover this
- 18:17:52 [Jan]
- q-
- 18:18:48 [KFord]
- kford: Our guidelines do kind of assume this today. Could be more explicit.
- 18:19:38 [KFord]
- JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.
- 18:20:06 [KFord]
- JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda?
- 18:20:39 [KFord]
- JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda?JBrewer: Think we put it on the agenda.
- 18:21:05 [KFord]
- JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda?JBrewer: Think we put it on the agenda./me can someone scribe for one second.
- 18:21:42 [KFord]
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- 18:21:46 [judy]
- scribe: judy
- 18:22:06 [judy]
- JA: the other thing we had from the Wiki was the reworking of principle 2
- 18:22:19 [judy]
- ... the DOM, the -- it's a huge area
- 18:22:43 [judy]
- JS: the f2f is a great place to do that. could network with many other people at the TPAC.
- 18:22:59 [judy]
- JA: and right now we have only 1 non-team member observer. any more?
- 18:23:03 [judy]
- JS: looking...
- 18:23:15 [judy]
- JA: are we allowed to invite people?
- 18:24:04 [judy]
- JB: if you mean to invite people already attending the TPAC to join a specific part of the meeting to discuss a topic, yes
- 18:24:13 [KFord]
- KFord has joined #ua
- 18:24:27 [judy]
- JA: want to get some fresh technical eyes to look at principle 2
- 18:24:49 [KFord]
- Scribe: KFord
- 18:26:17 [KFord]
- Action: kford look at section 2 and see what questions we need answered at face to face.
- 18:26:17 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
- 18:26:26 [jeanne]
- Action: KF to review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F.
- 18:26:26 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-16 - Review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-02].
- 18:27:38 [KFord]
- JBrewer: We might benefit by identifying 5 questions when doing a top to bottom review of document.
- 18:28:09 [KFord]
- JBrewer: Comprehensiveness, do we note any big gaps now that we've been looking at this?
- 18:28:32 [KFord]
- JBrewer: Clarity: Are there areas where the provisions seem unclear.
- 18:29:07 [KFord]
- JBrewer: Organization: We are at a good stage to look at this. Does anything need to move to new sections.
- 18:29:32 [KFord]
- JBrewer: Consiceness (sp): Document seems to complex at times.
- 18:29:55 [KFord]
- JBreewer: Are we being consistent in the document and phrasing.
- 18:30:17 [KFord]
- JBrewer: Compatibility: Are we the same as other W3C accessibility specs.
- 18:30:43 [KFord]
- JBrewer: I think there's benefit to doing a document review but we need to have some structure.
- 18:30:56 [KFord]
- JAllen: Thanks, Judy, good list.
- 18:31:20 [judy]
- s/Consiceness/Conciseness
- 18:31:25 [KFord]
- JBrewer: Does it make sense to talk about this list, anything missing, order?
- 18:32:13 [KFord]
- JAllen: Summarizes JBrewer's items, consistency, organization, compat, complexity.
- 18:32:29 [KFord]
- JAllen: Consiseness.
- 18:33:35 [judy]
- Comprehensiveness, clarity, conciseness/simplicity, organization, compatability.
- 18:34:21 [KFord]
- JAN: Someplace, maybe with clarity, needs to be realism of the checkpoint.
- 18:34:44 [KFord]
- JAN: Kind of what WCAG is dealing with where they maybe are finding some things are not as realistic as they thought.
- 18:35:02 [judy]
- feasibility, testability
- 18:35:56 [KFord]
- JBrewer: WCAG doing reasonably well but for a couple things that bubbled up in recent coordination call. Need to ensure we think about testability and Feasability
- 18:36:41 [KFord]
- Some discussion around agenda items and such. Defining Feasability and testability.
- 18:37:20 [KFord]
- JAllen: Let's talk about this a bit more.
- 18:38:09 [KFord]
- Jallen: You might be great to start looking at clarity.
- 18:38:45 [KFord]
- SHarper: Comprehensiveness might be good to look at with the gaps we've been talking about. If we make sure everything's there, we can organize it.
- 18:38:56 [jeanne]
- +1 with Simon
- 18:39:42 [jeanne]
- Comprehensiveness, clarity, conciseness/simplicity, organization, compatability, feasibility, testability
- 18:40:52 [KFord]
- Jeanne: I volunteer for calrity and compat.
- 18:41:19 [jeanne]
- I will also do organization
- 18:41:24 [KFord]
- JAllen: Feasability and testability.
- 18:42:12 [KFord]
- SHarper: Feasability
- 18:43:13 [KFord]
- JAN: testability
- 18:43:30 [KFord]
- JAN: Compatability
- 18:43:42 [KFord]
- Judy: Clarity, con and comprehensiveness.
- 18:44:12 [KFord]
- kford: clarity, organization and testability
- 18:44:41 [Jan]
- Action JA: Feasibility and testability
- 18:44:41 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-17 - Feasibility and testability [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-02].
- 18:45:00 [Jan]
- Action JR: Compatibility & testability
- 18:45:00 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-18 - Compatibility & testability [on Jan Richards - due 2008-10-02].
- 18:45:23 [Jan]
- Action KF: Clarity, conciseness, testability
- 18:45:23 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-19 - Clarity, conciseness, testability [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-02].
- 18:46:03 [Jan]
- JB: Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness
- 18:46:08 [KFord]
- Meeting pauses while JAN hands out work.
- 18:46:09 [Jan]
- Action JB: Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness
- 18:46:09 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-20 - Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness [on Judy Brewer - due 2008-10-02].
- 18:46:56 [Jan]
- Action SH: Feasibility and comprehensiveness
- 18:46:56 [trackbot]
- Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
- 18:46:56 [trackbot]
- Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
- 18:47:14 [Jan]
- Action sharper: Feasibility and comprehensiveness
- 18:47:14 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-21 - Feasibility and comprehensiveness [on Simon Harper - due 2008-10-02].
- 18:47:54 [Jan]
- Action JS: Organization, clarity and compatibility
- 18:47:55 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-22 - Organization, clarity and compatibility [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-02].
- 18:49:05 [KFord]
- JAllen: Let's talk about structure. We have two days and about 6.5 hours each day.
- 18:49:34 [KFord]
- JAllen: Good direction on top to bottom review. Could probably take a day.
- 18:49:54 [KFord]
- JBrewer: Could take a day, or three days. How do we want to ensure this is successful.
- 18:50:07 [KFord]
- JBrewer: We could go through top to bottom n a day.
- 18:51:05 [KFord]
- JBrewer: We could select criteria in some order and go through. Cluster items.
- 18:51:13 [KFord]
- ?me Judy can you repeat your clusters?
- 18:52:01 [jallan]
- comprehensiveness-organization-compatibility, testability-feasibility, conciseness-clarity
- 18:52:09 [KFord]
- kford: I like the idea of clustering.
- 18:52:30 [KFord]
- JAllen: I like this.
- 18:53:56 [judy]
- First pass: comprehensiveness, compatability, organization; Second pass: feasibility, testability; Third pass: conciseness, clarity
- 18:56:33 [Jan]
- Scribe:Jan
- 18:56:35 [jallan]
- first day issues: printing, video, keyboard, Guideline2 (dom, api)
- 18:56:54 [Jan]
- JB: Over to keyboard
- 18:57:00 [KFord]
- KFord has joined #ua
- 18:57:22 [Jan]
- Topic: Keyboard access
- 18:57:25 [jeanne]
- Action: JS to put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page.
- 18:57:25 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-23 - Put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-02].
- 18:58:12 [Jan]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable
- 18:58:23 [jeanne]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable
- 18:59:23 [Jan]
- JA: Two 4.1.XX...
- 18:59:30 [Jan]
- JA: 4.1.xx Specify preferred keystrok
- 18:59:37 [Jan]
- JA: 4.1.xx User Override of Accesskeys
- 18:59:47 [Jan]
- JA: Thought we talked about that last week
- 19:00:29 [Jan]
- JA: So we had action last week...JS to edit to 4.1.10
- 19:01:05 [jallan]
- 4.1.xx Specify preferred keystrokes: The user has the option to establish a preferred set of keys that will be used to override *recognized* author supplied keybindings (i.e. access key).
- 19:01:26 [Jan]
- JS: really seems like both are addressing same issue
- 19:01:38 [Jan]
- JS: Maybe if clarified could be made into one
- 19:01:49 [Jan]
- 4.1.xx User Override of Accesskeys: The user can override any author supplied content keybinding (i.e. access key) that the user agent can *recognize*. The user must have an option to save the override of user interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the current session.
- 19:02:32 [Jan]
- JS: What is the difference here
- 19:02:44 [Jan]
- KF: 2 weeks ago we talked about this
- 19:03:05 [Jan]
- KF: One of them was about "I like alt-E"
- 19:03:27 [Jan]
- JA: Other one saves your new configuration for when you revisit
- 19:03:35 [Jan]
- JS: I think they can be merged
- 19:03:57 [Jan]
- JS: Key issue is eestablishing prefs for remapping...then prefs are saved beyond current session
- 19:04:14 [Jan]
- JA: Just from looking at it I think we should use the second one
- 19:04:23 [Jan]
- JA: First one doesn't add anything unique
- 19:04:35 [Jan]
- JS: First one talks about establishing prefs in advance
- 19:05:00 [Jan]
- SH: Establish is fixing set of preferred keys
- 19:05:14 [Jan]
- KF: To do the second you would do the first
- 19:05:27 [Jan]
- KF: If you were actually implementing this
- 19:05:49 [Jan]
- KF: Second one needed, first one us superfluous
- 19:06:12 [jeanne]
- +1 for keeping the second one.
- 19:06:26 [sharper]
- +1 for the first one
- 19:06:30 [jallan]
- +1 for second
- 19:06:57 [jallan]
- JR: combine them with a few bullets
- 19:07:05 [jeanne]
- scribe:jeanne
- 19:07:35 [jeanne]
- JR: two weeks ago, they aren't a set of keys that are preferred, it is that you have a key that is preferred for a particular function.
- 19:08:04 [jeanne]
- KF: I don't remember if I was referring to the web page, or the browser itself.
- 19:08:24 [jeanne]
- JR: In this case , we are talking about the content.
- 19:09:50 [jeanne]
- ...there were two levels: One where you wanted to remap everything to one side of the keyboard, the other was to fine-tune specific keys that the user prefers
- 19:10:14 [jeanne]
- SH: The user has the option to assign a persistent set of keys to override the content...
- 19:10:58 [jeanne]
- JR: When do you do it? Pre-defined before you start working, or once you see the web page, you want to select keys?
- 19:13:04 [jeanne]
- SH: There are semantic issues. There is no knowledge in the markup, just executes.
- 19:13:39 [jallan]
- JS: use cases. speech users - map potential keystrokes base on a site.
- 19:14:19 [jallan]
- ... motor-issues, want to limit all sites to only left side of keyboard
- 19:18:29 [Jan]
- Action sharper: To try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX
- 19:18:29 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-24 - Try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX [on Simon Harper - due 2008-10-02].
- 19:19:23 [Jan]
- JB: One more criteria in top to bottom review....consolidation possibilities.
- 19:20:01 [Jan]
- JA: Maybe fits in with conciseness
- 19:20:11 [Jan]
- JB: Or to "organization"
- 19:20:39 [Jan]
- JB: Seems that some people on the group are raising consolidation issues
- 19:20:46 [Jan]
- JA: I can do it
- 19:21:08 [Jan]
- Action : JA, JS to look at consolidation possibilities
- 19:21:08 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - JA,
- 19:21:22 [Jan]
- Action : jallan, jeanne to look at consolidation possibilities
- 19:21:22 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - jallan,
- 19:21:22 [jeanne]
- jeanne will also look at consolitation as part of organization
- 19:22:20 [jeanne]
- Topic: 4.1.11
- 19:22:25 [Jan]
- JA: 4.1.11 Intergroup Navigation: Allow the user to navigate between and within groups of focusable controls (e.g., toolbars, dialogs, panels, etc.
- 19:22:32 [Jan]
- KF: Wrinkle...
- 19:23:03 [Jan]
- KF: In ARIA...funny thing is ARIA is about creating these rich controlks etc in content
- 19:23:33 [Jan]
- KF: But important that not enough to call things a tree, must behave like one
- 19:24:13 [Jan]
- JS: In Dave P. wanted us to use among instead of between
- 19:24:24 [Jan]
- JB: THen Al G. said Group-by group
- 19:24:59 [Jan]
- KF: THis was referring to the user interface
- 19:27:46 [Jan]
- KF: This is so you don't have to navigate by tabbing 20 times...can jump by groups
- 19:32:14 [jallan]
- AG editorial: So say from group to group and avoid the collision with correct cardinality usage (between for two, among for more than two).
- 19:33:20 [KFord]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-minutes.html KFord
- 19:33:45 [Zakim]
- -sharper
- 19:33:48 [Zakim]
- -KFord
- 19:33:53 [judy]
- zakim, who's here?
- 19:33:53 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Jeanne, jallan, Jan, Judy
- 19:33:54 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see KFord, judy, Jan, sharper, RRSAgent, Zakim, jallan, jeanne, trackbot
- 19:34:15 [KFord]
- zakim, please part
- 19:34:15 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, KFord, jallan, sharper, Jan, Judy
- 19:34:15 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #ua
- 19:34:52 [KFord]
- rrsagent, draft minutes
- 19:34:52 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-minutes.html KFord
- 19:36:14 [KFord]
- rrsagent, please part
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-actions.rdf :
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: kford look at section 2 and see what questions we need answered at face to face. [1]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-26-17
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: KF to review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F. [2]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-26-26
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JA to Feasibility and testability [3]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-44-41
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JR to Compatibility & testability [4]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-45-00
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: KF to Clarity, conciseness, testability [5]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-45-23
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JB to Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness [6]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-46-09
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: SH to Feasibility and comprehensiveness [7]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-46-56
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: sharper to Feasibility and comprehensiveness [8]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-47-14
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JS to Organization, clarity and compatibility [9]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-47-54
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JS to put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page. [10]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-57-25
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: sharper to To try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX [11]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-18-29
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: JA, JS to look at consolidation possibilities [12]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-21-08
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jallan, jeanne to look at consolidation possibilities [13]
- 19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-21-22