IRC log of ua on 2008-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:50:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:50:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc
17:51:03 [jallan]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:52:04 [jallan]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0145.html
17:52:26 [jallan]
Title: UAWG telecon 25 Sept 2008
17:52:36 [jallan]
Chair: Jim_Allan
17:56:45 [sharper]
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17:56:46 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
17:56:53 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:57:59 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:57:59 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:58:19 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:58:36 [jeanne]
zakim, [Microsoft] is KFord
17:58:36 [Zakim]
+KFord; got it
17:58:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.233.aaaa
17:59:36 [jallan]
zakim, +1.512.233.aaaa is jallan
17:59:36 [Zakim]
+jallan; got it
18:00:00 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:00:08 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:00:08 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Jan
18:00:39 [Zakim]
+??P3
18:00:42 [sharper]
zakim, ??P3 is sharper
18:00:42 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:01:09 [Zakim]
+??P4
18:01:22 [Jan]
zakim, ??P4 is really Jan
18:01:22 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:01:44 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
18:01:51 [judy]
zakim, dial judy-office
18:01:51 [Zakim]
ok, judy; the call is being made
18:01:53 [Zakim]
+Judy
18:01:55 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable
18:04:53 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable
18:05:23 [KFord]
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18:06:21 [KFord]
JAllen: deal with agenda for face to face.
18:06:35 [KFord]
agreement from all.
18:07:01 [jallan]
issues list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0144.html
18:07:03 [KFord]
llen: came up with some issues printing and such. JAllen posting list.
18:08:50 [KFord]
Discussion of printing proposal.
18:09:06 [KFord]
JBrewer: Do we need to do things to preparee
18:09:44 [KFord]
JAllen: review proposal, ensure we have everything outlined.
18:10:10 [KFord]
discussion of who will be attending.
18:10:40 [KFord]
SHarper traveling, may be calling.
18:10:48 [KFord]
JAN, still working details out.
18:10:58 [KFord]
KFord hopefully know more after tomorrow.
18:11:39 [KFord]
trackbot, start telecon
18:11:39 [trackbot]
Sorry, KFord, I don't understand 'trackbot, start telecon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
18:12:28 [KFord]
JAllen: other issue is keyboard.
18:13:00 [KFord]
JAllen: anything else?
18:13:05 [KFord]
silence.
18:13:22 [KFord]
JAllen: The other issue is video.
18:13:44 [KFord]
JAllen: We had done some back in March, had some discussion. Not sure we moved beyond the presentation.
18:14:50 [KFord]
Scribe: KFord
18:15:27 [KFord]
JAllen: Have concern around currnet guideline assumes we have an external player.
18:15:48 [KFord]
JAllen: With HTML5 we are looking at native playing in the browser itself.
18:16:06 [Jan]
q+
18:16:07 [KFord]
JAllen: How do we cover something that's in such a state of flux?
18:16:52 [KFord]
JAN: I think as a general rule any content can be handled either natively or by a plug-in. We cover this situation in general.
18:17:15 [KFord]
JAN: Gave example of some native things Firefox does today.
18:17:49 [jallan]
KF: guidelines cover this
18:17:52 [Jan]
q-
18:18:48 [KFord]
kford: Our guidelines do kind of assume this today. Could be more explicit.
18:19:38 [KFord]
JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.
18:20:06 [KFord]
JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda?
18:20:39 [KFord]
JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda?JBrewer: Think we put it on the agenda.
18:21:05 [KFord]
JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda?JBrewer: Think we put it on the agenda./me can someone scribe for one second.
18:21:42 [KFord]
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18:21:46 [judy]
scribe: judy
18:22:06 [judy]
JA: the other thing we had from the Wiki was the reworking of principle 2
18:22:19 [judy]
... the DOM, the -- it's a huge area
18:22:43 [judy]
JS: the f2f is a great place to do that. could network with many other people at the TPAC.
18:22:59 [judy]
JA: and right now we have only 1 non-team member observer. any more?
18:23:03 [judy]
JS: looking...
18:23:15 [judy]
JA: are we allowed to invite people?
18:24:04 [judy]
JB: if you mean to invite people already attending the TPAC to join a specific part of the meeting to discuss a topic, yes
18:24:13 [KFord]
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18:24:27 [judy]
JA: want to get some fresh technical eyes to look at principle 2
18:24:49 [KFord]
Scribe: KFord
18:26:17 [KFord]
Action: kford look at section 2 and see what questions we need answered at face to face.
18:26:17 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
18:26:26 [jeanne]
Action: KF to review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F.
18:26:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-16 - Review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-02].
18:27:38 [KFord]
JBrewer: We might benefit by identifying 5 questions when doing a top to bottom review of document.
18:28:09 [KFord]
JBrewer: Comprehensiveness, do we note any big gaps now that we've been looking at this?
18:28:32 [KFord]
JBrewer: Clarity: Are there areas where the provisions seem unclear.
18:29:07 [KFord]
JBrewer: Organization: We are at a good stage to look at this. Does anything need to move to new sections.
18:29:32 [KFord]
JBrewer: Consiceness (sp): Document seems to complex at times.
18:29:55 [KFord]
JBreewer: Are we being consistent in the document and phrasing.
18:30:17 [KFord]
JBrewer: Compatibility: Are we the same as other W3C accessibility specs.
18:30:43 [KFord]
JBrewer: I think there's benefit to doing a document review but we need to have some structure.
18:30:56 [KFord]
JAllen: Thanks, Judy, good list.
18:31:20 [judy]
s/Consiceness/Conciseness
18:31:25 [KFord]
JBrewer: Does it make sense to talk about this list, anything missing, order?
18:32:13 [KFord]
JAllen: Summarizes JBrewer's items, consistency, organization, compat, complexity.
18:32:29 [KFord]
JAllen: Consiseness.
18:33:35 [judy]
Comprehensiveness, clarity, conciseness/simplicity, organization, compatability.
18:34:21 [KFord]
JAN: Someplace, maybe with clarity, needs to be realism of the checkpoint.
18:34:44 [KFord]
JAN: Kind of what WCAG is dealing with where they maybe are finding some things are not as realistic as they thought.
18:35:02 [judy]
feasibility, testability
18:35:56 [KFord]
JBrewer: WCAG doing reasonably well but for a couple things that bubbled up in recent coordination call. Need to ensure we think about testability and Feasability
18:36:41 [KFord]
Some discussion around agenda items and such. Defining Feasability and testability.
18:37:20 [KFord]
JAllen: Let's talk about this a bit more.
18:38:09 [KFord]
Jallen: You might be great to start looking at clarity.
18:38:45 [KFord]
SHarper: Comprehensiveness might be good to look at with the gaps we've been talking about. If we make sure everything's there, we can organize it.
18:38:56 [jeanne]
+1 with Simon
18:39:42 [jeanne]
Comprehensiveness, clarity, conciseness/simplicity, organization, compatability, feasibility, testability
18:40:52 [KFord]
Jeanne: I volunteer for calrity and compat.
18:41:19 [jeanne]
I will also do organization
18:41:24 [KFord]
JAllen: Feasability and testability.
18:42:12 [KFord]
SHarper: Feasability
18:43:13 [KFord]
JAN: testability
18:43:30 [KFord]
JAN: Compatability
18:43:42 [KFord]
Judy: Clarity, con and comprehensiveness.
18:44:12 [KFord]
kford: clarity, organization and testability
18:44:41 [Jan]
Action JA: Feasibility and testability
18:44:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-17 - Feasibility and testability [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-02].
18:45:00 [Jan]
Action JR: Compatibility & testability
18:45:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-18 - Compatibility & testability [on Jan Richards - due 2008-10-02].
18:45:23 [Jan]
Action KF: Clarity, conciseness, testability
18:45:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-19 - Clarity, conciseness, testability [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-02].
18:46:03 [Jan]
JB: Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness
18:46:08 [KFord]
Meeting pauses while JAN hands out work.
18:46:09 [Jan]
Action JB: Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness
18:46:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-20 - Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness [on Judy Brewer - due 2008-10-02].
18:46:56 [Jan]
Action SH: Feasibility and comprehensiveness
18:46:56 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
18:46:56 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
18:47:14 [Jan]
Action sharper: Feasibility and comprehensiveness
18:47:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-21 - Feasibility and comprehensiveness [on Simon Harper - due 2008-10-02].
18:47:54 [Jan]
Action JS: Organization, clarity and compatibility
18:47:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-22 - Organization, clarity and compatibility [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-02].
18:49:05 [KFord]
JAllen: Let's talk about structure. We have two days and about 6.5 hours each day.
18:49:34 [KFord]
JAllen: Good direction on top to bottom review. Could probably take a day.
18:49:54 [KFord]
JBrewer: Could take a day, or three days. How do we want to ensure this is successful.
18:50:07 [KFord]
JBrewer: We could go through top to bottom n a day.
18:51:05 [KFord]
JBrewer: We could select criteria in some order and go through. Cluster items.
18:51:13 [KFord]
?me Judy can you repeat your clusters?
18:52:01 [jallan]
comprehensiveness-organization-compatibility, testability-feasibility, conciseness-clarity
18:52:09 [KFord]
kford: I like the idea of clustering.
18:52:30 [KFord]
JAllen: I like this.
18:53:56 [judy]
First pass: comprehensiveness, compatability, organization; Second pass: feasibility, testability; Third pass: conciseness, clarity
18:56:33 [Jan]
Scribe:Jan
18:56:35 [jallan]
first day issues: printing, video, keyboard, Guideline2 (dom, api)
18:56:54 [Jan]
JB: Over to keyboard
18:57:00 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
18:57:22 [Jan]
Topic: Keyboard access
18:57:25 [jeanne]
Action: JS to put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page.
18:57:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-23 - Put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-02].
18:58:12 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable
18:58:23 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable
18:59:23 [Jan]
JA: Two 4.1.XX...
18:59:30 [Jan]
JA: 4.1.xx Specify preferred keystrok
18:59:37 [Jan]
JA: 4.1.xx User Override of Accesskeys
18:59:47 [Jan]
JA: Thought we talked about that last week
19:00:29 [Jan]
JA: So we had action last week...JS to edit to 4.1.10
19:01:05 [jallan]
4.1.xx Specify preferred keystrokes: The user has the option to establish a preferred set of keys that will be used to override *recognized* author supplied keybindings (i.e. access key).
19:01:26 [Jan]
JS: really seems like both are addressing same issue
19:01:38 [Jan]
JS: Maybe if clarified could be made into one
19:01:49 [Jan]
4.1.xx User Override of Accesskeys: The user can override any author supplied content keybinding (i.e. access key) that the user agent can *recognize*. The user must have an option to save the override of user interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the current session.
19:02:32 [Jan]
JS: What is the difference here
19:02:44 [Jan]
KF: 2 weeks ago we talked about this
19:03:05 [Jan]
KF: One of them was about "I like alt-E"
19:03:27 [Jan]
JA: Other one saves your new configuration for when you revisit
19:03:35 [Jan]
JS: I think they can be merged
19:03:57 [Jan]
JS: Key issue is eestablishing prefs for remapping...then prefs are saved beyond current session
19:04:14 [Jan]
JA: Just from looking at it I think we should use the second one
19:04:23 [Jan]
JA: First one doesn't add anything unique
19:04:35 [Jan]
JS: First one talks about establishing prefs in advance
19:05:00 [Jan]
SH: Establish is fixing set of preferred keys
19:05:14 [Jan]
KF: To do the second you would do the first
19:05:27 [Jan]
KF: If you were actually implementing this
19:05:49 [Jan]
KF: Second one needed, first one us superfluous
19:06:12 [jeanne]
+1 for keeping the second one.
19:06:26 [sharper]
+1 for the first one
19:06:30 [jallan]
+1 for second
19:06:57 [jallan]
JR: combine them with a few bullets
19:07:05 [jeanne]
scribe:jeanne
19:07:35 [jeanne]
JR: two weeks ago, they aren't a set of keys that are preferred, it is that you have a key that is preferred for a particular function.
19:08:04 [jeanne]
KF: I don't remember if I was referring to the web page, or the browser itself.
19:08:24 [jeanne]
JR: In this case , we are talking about the content.
19:09:50 [jeanne]
...there were two levels: One where you wanted to remap everything to one side of the keyboard, the other was to fine-tune specific keys that the user prefers
19:10:14 [jeanne]
SH: The user has the option to assign a persistent set of keys to override the content...
19:10:58 [jeanne]
JR: When do you do it? Pre-defined before you start working, or once you see the web page, you want to select keys?
19:13:04 [jeanne]
SH: There are semantic issues. There is no knowledge in the markup, just executes.
19:13:39 [jallan]
JS: use cases. speech users - map potential keystrokes base on a site.
19:14:19 [jallan]
... motor-issues, want to limit all sites to only left side of keyboard
19:18:29 [Jan]
Action sharper: To try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX
19:18:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-24 - Try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX [on Simon Harper - due 2008-10-02].
19:19:23 [Jan]
JB: One more criteria in top to bottom review....consolidation possibilities.
19:20:01 [Jan]
JA: Maybe fits in with conciseness
19:20:11 [Jan]
JB: Or to "organization"
19:20:39 [Jan]
JB: Seems that some people on the group are raising consolidation issues
19:20:46 [Jan]
JA: I can do it
19:21:08 [Jan]
Action : JA, JS to look at consolidation possibilities
19:21:08 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - JA,
19:21:22 [Jan]
Action : jallan, jeanne to look at consolidation possibilities
19:21:22 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - jallan,
19:21:22 [jeanne]
jeanne will also look at consolitation as part of organization
19:22:20 [jeanne]
Topic: 4.1.11
19:22:25 [Jan]
JA: 4.1.11 Intergroup Navigation: Allow the user to navigate between and within groups of focusable controls (e.g., toolbars, dialogs, panels, etc.
19:22:32 [Jan]
KF: Wrinkle...
19:23:03 [Jan]
KF: In ARIA...funny thing is ARIA is about creating these rich controlks etc in content
19:23:33 [Jan]
KF: But important that not enough to call things a tree, must behave like one
19:24:13 [Jan]
JS: In Dave P. wanted us to use among instead of between
19:24:24 [Jan]
JB: THen Al G. said Group-by group
19:24:59 [Jan]
KF: THis was referring to the user interface
19:27:46 [Jan]
KF: This is so you don't have to navigate by tabbing 20 times...can jump by groups
19:32:14 [jallan]
AG editorial: So say from group to group and avoid the collision with correct cardinality usage (between for two, among for more than two).
19:33:20 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:33:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-minutes.html KFord
19:33:45 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:33:48 [Zakim]
-KFord
19:33:53 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
19:33:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, jallan, Jan, Judy
19:33:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see KFord, judy, Jan, sharper, RRSAgent, Zakim, jallan, jeanne, trackbot
19:34:15 [KFord]
zakim, please part
19:34:15 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, KFord, jallan, sharper, Jan, Judy
19:34:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:34:52 [KFord]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:34:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-minutes.html KFord
19:36:14 [KFord]
rrsagent, please part
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-actions.rdf :
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford look at section 2 and see what questions we need answered at face to face. [1]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-26-17
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F. [2]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-26-26
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Feasibility and testability [3]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-44-41
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Compatibility & testability [4]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-45-00
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to Clarity, conciseness, testability [5]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-45-23
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JB to Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness [6]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-46-09
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SH to Feasibility and comprehensiveness [7]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-46-56
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper to Feasibility and comprehensiveness [8]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-47-14
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to Organization, clarity and compatibility [9]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-47-54
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page. [10]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-57-25
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper to To try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX [11]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-18-29
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA, JS to look at consolidation possibilities [12]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-21-08
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan, jeanne to look at consolidation possibilities [13]
19:36:14 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-21-22