13:57:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:57:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/23-bpwg-irc
13:57:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:57:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:57:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:57:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:57:59 <trackbot> Date: 23 September 2008
13:57:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:58:08 <francois> Chair: francois
13:58:14 <francois> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0053.html
13:58:26 <francois> Regrets: SeanP, jo
14:00:15 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:00:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/23-bpwg-minutes.html francois
14:01:33 <francois> zakim, code?
14:01:47 <Zakim> the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
14:02:03 <rob> rob has joined #bpwg
14:02:07 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started
14:02:16 <Zakim> +Francois
14:03:03 <Zakim> +Bryan_Sullivan
14:03:14 <Zakim> + +0049211aaaa
14:03:32 <Zakim> + +0207287aabb
14:03:38 <hgerlach> hgerlach has joined #bpwg
14:03:43 <francois> zakim, aaaa is hgerlach
14:03:51 <Zakim> +hgerlach; got it
14:03:57 <francois> zakim, aabb is rob
14:04:05 <Zakim> +rob; got it
14:04:12 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #bpwg
14:05:03 <francois> ScribeNick: rob
14:05:06 <francois> Scribe: rob
14:06:27 <francois> ScribeNick: francois
14:06:31 <francois> Scribe: francois
14:06:35 <francois> Topic: New comments received
14:06:44 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-comments/2008JulSep/0154.html fd's no-comment comment
14:08:09 <tomhume> tomhume has joined #bpwg
14:08:14 <Zakim> + +0789972aacc
14:08:39 <francois> zakim, aacc is AndrewS
14:08:39 <Zakim> +AndrewS; got it
14:09:03 <francois> ScribeNick: Bryan
14:09:06 <hgerlach> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/irc/irc.cgi works
14:09:06 <francois> Scribe: Bryan
14:09:09 <rob> rob has joined #bpwg
14:09:16 <Zakim> + +0752568aadd
14:09:27 <tomhume> zakim, aadd is tomhume
14:09:28 <Zakim> +tomhume; got it
14:09:43 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-comments/2008JulSep/0152.html IAB message
14:09:47 <andrews> andrews has joined #bpwg
14:10:09 <Bryan> Francois: may be some comments coming from W3C internal review of the CT guidelines.
14:10:51 <francois> Topic: LC-2018: on the title
14:10:52 <Bryan> ... these offer W3C staff the chance to comment given they are very busy
14:11:16 <andrews> andrews has joined #bpwg
14:11:29 <francois> - Content Transformation Proxies: Guidelines
14:11:29 <francois> - Guidelines for Mobile Web Content Transformation Proxies
14:11:30 <Bryan> ... on the doc name, we can narrow the choice between two
14:11:58 <hgerlach> b) +1
14:12:20 <Bryan> ... we are more about web browsing than web, but browsing may be a confusing term to include; mobile web seems fine
14:12:28 <andrews> I favour the second
14:12:41 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The title of the spec will be "Guidelines for Mobile Web Content Transformation Proxies"
14:12:48 <andrews> +1
14:12:51 <Bryan> q+
14:12:56 <francois> ack Bryan 
14:13:49 <Bryan> Bryan: recommend to leave out mobile as this is whole web content
14:13:51 <andrews> Good point - I agree
14:14:00 <hgerlach> Guidelines for  Content Transformation Proxies in Mobile Networks
14:14:01 <tomhume> +1
14:14:05 <andrews> +1
14:14:07 <hgerlach> -1
14:14:45 <Bryan> Heiko: proposes "in Mobile Networks"
14:15:15 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The title of the spec will be "Guidelines for Web Content Transformation Proxies"
14:15:24 <francois> +1
14:15:29 <Bryan> Bryan: we are not limiting this to mobile networks; limited capability devices in general
14:15:37 <Bryan> +1
14:15:45 <andrews> +1
14:15:48 <hgerlach> +1 
14:15:49 <tomhume> +1
14:15:50 <rob> +1
14:16:07 <Bryan> Francois: suggests we come to agreement to close this item as we could spend a lot of time on it
14:16:20 <Bryan> RESOLUTION: The title of the spec will be "Guidelines for Web Content Transformation Proxies"
14:16:27 <hgerlach> q+
14:16:33 <francois> ack hgerlach 
14:16:50 <Zakim> -tomhume
14:17:10 <Bryan> Heiko: for new people, it may be hard to know that a key use case is in the mobile network context
14:17:38 <Bryan> Francois: the abstract of the title could include mobile and a proposal can be sent to the mailing list for that
14:17:41 <Zakim> +tomhume
14:17:46 <francois> Topic: LC-2025: On the quality and purpose of the doc
14:18:03 <francois> close ACTION-831
14:18:03 <trackbot> ACTION-831 Continue discussion of the title on the list closed
14:18:18 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0004.html heiko's comments
14:18:49 <Bryan> Francois: what can we resolve to do on this?
14:19:56 <Bryan> Heiko: this will come out of the whole comment resolution process; dont want to question the whole objective, this just provides general guidelines on how to improve the doc
14:20:17 <Bryan> Francois: we can include better examples and will come back to this in the end
14:20:20 <Zakim> -tomhume
14:20:21 <francois> Close ACTION-829
14:20:21 <trackbot> ACTION-829 Detail his thoughts arising from discussion of LC-2025 closed
14:20:37 <francois> Topic: LC-2012: clarification of the introduction
14:20:59 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0015.html Tom's proposal
14:21:46 <tomhume> Apologies all, I appear to have lost my telephone connection :(
14:21:57 <francois> "Within this document content transformation refers to the  
14:21:57 <francois> manipulation of requests made to, and content delivered by, an origin  
14:21:57 <francois> server. This manipulation is carried out by proxies with a view to  
14:21:57 <francois> making content delivered more suitable for mobile presentation."
14:22:11 <Bryan> Francois: we should keep this for now, we do need to improve the intro, and can resolve to accept Tom's wording, about the 1st sentence of the intro
14:22:36 <Bryan> +1
14:23:03 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: re. LC-2012, use Tom's wording above, (and note we may have to further clarify the introduction for other reasons anyway)
14:23:14 <Bryan> +1
14:23:15 <francois> +1
14:23:28 <rob> +1
14:23:42 <hgerlach> +1
14:23:49 <Bryan>  RESOLUTION: re. LC-2012, use Tom's wording above, (and note we may have to further clarify the introduction for other reasons anyway)
14:23:59 <Bryan> RESOLUTION: re. LC-2012, use Tom's wording above, (and note we may have to further clarify the introduction for other reasons anyway)
14:24:05 <francois> Topic: LC-2064: duplicated IDs in the document
14:24:41 <Bryan> Francois: this one is a mistake; a bug in firefox
14:24:46 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: LC-2064 is a mistake. There are no duplicated IDs in the document.
14:24:56 <Bryan> +1
14:25:02 <Bryan> RESOLUTION: LC-2064 is a mistake. There are no duplicated IDs in the document.
14:25:10 <francois> Topic: LC-2003: no mention of whitelists
14:25:29 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0026.html jo's proposal
14:25:52 <Zakim> +tomhume
14:26:15 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: re. LC-2003, stick to our position and use Jo's proposed response in public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0026.html
14:26:26 <hgerlach> -1
14:26:44 <Bryan> Francois: the essence is that this is an internal proxy issue
14:27:06 <Bryan> Heiko: don't agree, but can accept a team agreement
14:27:32 <Bryan> q+
14:27:38 <francois> ack Bryan 
14:28:12 <rob> q+ to support Heiko's point that whitelists do exist - and won't go away just because we don't mention them
14:29:04 <Bryan> Bryan: we can consider content management interfaces through other specifications or fora, e.g. OMA
14:29:18 <Bryan> Bryan: OMA is working on content management interfaces for example
14:29:51 <Bryan> Francois: agree that new technologies may be needed, if there is some clear work going on, we can mention it in the appendix
14:30:05 <francois> ack rob 
14:30:05 <Zakim> rob, you wanted to support Heiko's point that whitelists do exist - and won't go away just because we don't mention them
14:30:57 <Bryan> Rob: there is talk of mechanisms, but CP's are aware of the need to be on whitelists, so it is strange that we don't mention it in more detail
14:31:50 <Zakim> -tomhume
14:31:56 <Bryan> Francois: the rationale is that it is not needed for our guidelines, and is just the internal processing of proxies; we could add a note mentioning whitelists 
14:32:28 <Bryan> Rob: a note should tell CP to contact the network operator if they are having trouble
14:32:32 <hgerlach> q+
14:32:53 <Bryan> Bryan: should be called the "proxy operator"
14:33:39 <francois> ack hgerlach 
14:33:39 <Bryan> Francois: we could note that whitelist require CPs to submit some request to manage their handling
14:33:56 <Bryan> Rob: it should be the proxy operator who takes the action
14:35:14 <Bryan> Heiko: the diverging views here indicate the need for clarity; the history of this is that the use of lists in the proxy were to prevent adaptation; the same concept can be applied to user-agents
14:36:53 <Bryan> Heiko: the only issue left is that 200 OK pages; for dedicated URL we see issues with 200 OK instead of 406; human launguage guidance of incompatibility cannot be used semantically and thus we need whiltelists
14:38:06 <Bryan> Francois: proposes someone take an action to propose text so we can try to get agreement on it
14:39:15 <hgerlach> q+
14:39:30 <Bryan> Bryan: we could just list the types of functions that could be controlled by whitelists in tyhe document and leave the details out
14:40:36 <Bryan> Bryan: we can just list the functions e.g. don't modify this user agent or that site
14:40:51 <francois> ack hgerlach 
14:40:57 <Bryan> Francois: the listing of the functions is where the opinion divergence happens
14:41:10 <Zakim> +tomhume
14:42:04 <Bryan> Heiko: we had another item about the manipulation of other headers as well; we can expand the user-agent mod control whitelist text (if we had it) to include other headers as well
14:42:49 <Bryan> Francois: the relationship between whitelists and headers is unclear
14:43:06 <Bryan> Heiko: to control the changing of the user agent for specific pages
14:43:40 <rob> q+ to say we don't want to go into too much detail
14:43:45 <francois> ack rob 
14:43:45 <Zakim> rob, you wanted to say we don't want to go into too much detail
14:43:46 <Bryan> ... the decision on whether the UA is changed should be the site provider's
14:44:35 <Bryan> Rob: we should not go into too much detail about the purpose of the controls; just note that there may be functions that control the automatic behavior
14:45:47 <Bryan> Bryan: I can try to provide some more generic text that will hopefully be useful
14:45:48 <francois> ACTION: Bryan to provide some text on whitelists to see if we can include them somehow and come to an agreement re. LC-2003
14:45:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-850 - Provide some text on whitelists to see if we can include them somehow and come to an agreement re. LC-2003 [on Bryan Sullivan - due 2008-09-30].
14:46:16 <francois> Topic: LC-2068: on requests that contain Cache-Control: no-transform directives
14:46:27 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0029.html Jo's proposal
14:48:04 <francois> "If the request contains a Cache-Control: 
14:48:04 <francois> no-transform directive proxies must follow HTTP sections 14.9.5 and 
14:48:04 <francois> 13.5.2."
14:48:26 <Bryan> Francois: HTTP RFC talks about presence of the cache control header; we need to improve the clarity of the text and would like to hear proposals for that
14:48:43 <Bryan> ... text in the CT guidelines of course...
14:48:50 <andrews> I think that we should leave the text unchanged.
14:49:20 <francois> "If the request contains a Cache-Control: no-transform
14:49:20 <francois> directive proxies must forward the request unaltered to the server,
14:49:20 <francois> other than to comply with transparent HTTP behaviour and as noted
14:49:20 <francois> below."
14:50:18 <Bryan> Francois: we could clarify the "as noted below" part.
14:50:29 <francois> "If the request contains a Cache-Control: no-transform directive proxies must forward the request unaltered to the server, other than to comply with transparent HTTP behavior and as noted below (see 4.1.6 Additional HTTP Headers)"
14:51:13 <Bryan> Andrew: would not suggest any changes; it would probably just make it less clear
14:51:54 <Bryan> Francois: we could ref the transparent HTTP behavior, but the whole spec is assumed to be on top of HTTP anyway
14:51:58 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: re. LC-2068, we think the text is as clear as possible. Stick to the text in the spec.
14:52:15 <andrews> +1
14:52:16 <francois> +1
14:52:18 <Zakim> -tomhume
14:52:21 <Bryan> +1
14:52:23 <hgerlach> +1
14:52:24 <rob> +1
14:52:28 <Bryan> RESOLUTION: re. LC-2068, we think the text is as clear as possible. Stick to the text in the spec.
14:52:39 <francois> Topic: LC-2008: on use of Vary header
14:52:48 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0030.html Jo's proposal
14:53:31 <tomhume> Apologies to all, I'm unable to keep a mobile signal here and am about to lose net.connection :(
14:53:51 <francois> "If a server varies its representation according to examination of 
14:53:51 <francois> received HTTP headers then it must include a Vary HTTP header indicating 
14:53:51 <francois> the headers it examines in accordance with [ref].
14:53:51 <francois> "
14:54:05 <Bryan> Francois: The text is too long and thus obscure; Jo proposes to simplify the text
14:54:22 <francois> Current text: "If a server varies its representation according to examination of 
14:54:22 <francois> received HTTP headers then it must include a Vary HTTP header indicating 
14:54:22 <francois> this to be the case. If, in addition to, or instead of HTTP headers, a 
14:54:22 <francois> server varies its representation based on other factors (e.g. source IP 
14:54:22 <francois> Address) then it must, in accordance with [RFC 2616 
14:54:23 <francois> HTTP]<http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-ct-guidelines-20080801/#ref-HTTP>, 
14:54:25 <francois> include a Vary header containing the value '*'.
14:54:27 <francois> "
14:55:01 <Bryan> Francois: fine with Jo's proposal; we don't need to restate the RFC; readers can go there to get details
14:55:08 <andrews> Agree
14:55:13 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: re. LC-2008, update the text according to Jo's proposal, as pasted above
14:55:17 <andrews> +1
14:55:20 <rob> +1
14:55:21 <francois> +1
14:55:35 <Bryan> RESOLUTION: re. LC-2008, update the text according to Jo's proposal, as pasted above
14:57:02 <francois> Topic: LC-2090, LC-2091 on headers/footers
14:57:14 <francois> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0038.html Heiko's proposal
14:58:36 <Bryan> Heiko: adpated pages could include headers/footers, for non-adapted pages we should not add these
14:58:59 <Bryan> Francois: these should be out ot scope of the document; there were comments on copyright issues
14:59:02 <Bryan> q+
14:59:13 <francois> ack Bryan 
14:59:49 <rob> q+ to agree that just because it's possible does not mean it's recommended
15:00:17 <francois> ack rob 
15:00:17 <Zakim> rob, you wanted to agree that just because it's possible does not mean it's recommended
15:00:28 <Bryan> Bryan: we should leave this off the table
15:00:59 <francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: re. LC-2090, leave headers/footers off the table. Out of scope of this document.
15:01:10 <Bryan> rob: agree that just because it's possible does not mean it's recommended
15:01:18 <hgerlach> -1
15:04:03 <francois> linked to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Sep/0004.html
15:04:19 <Bryan> Heiko: with RC-2025, we discussed changes related to request for more details; now we are being less specific
15:05:09 <hgerlach> ok, bye
15:05:13 <Bryan> Francois: suggests that people think about this over the list in the meantime
15:05:24 <Zakim> -hgerlach
15:05:26 <Zakim> -Bryan_Sullivan
15:05:30 <Zakim> -rob
15:05:32 <Zakim> -AndrewS
15:05:34 <Zakim> MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended
15:05:35 <Zakim> Attendees were Francois, Bryan_Sullivan, +0049211aaaa, +0207287aabb, hgerlach, rob, +0789972aacc, AndrewS, +0752568aadd, tomhume
15:06:32 <francois> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/23-bpwg-minutes.html francois
15:08:27 <rob> rob has left #bpwg
17:23:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #bpwg