14:55:06 RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:55:06 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc 14:55:14 Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:55:24 zakim, this will be rdfa 14:55:24 ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 14:55:41 Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force 14:55:55 Scribe: Manu_Sporny 14:56:08 ScribeNick: msporny 14:56:18 Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force 14:56:32 Chair: Ben_Adida 14:56:33 SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started 14:56:40 +ShaneM 14:57:09 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Sep/0098.html 14:57:09 +Michael_Hausenblas 14:57:31 Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html 14:58:12 rrsagent, make log public 14:58:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:58:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 15:00:07 zakim, code? 15:00:07 the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck 15:00:17 zakim, dial steven-617 15:00:17 ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:00:18 +Steven 15:00:38 + +0208761aaaa 15:00:44 zakim, i am aaaa 15:00:45 +markbirbeck; got it 15:00:54 +??P12 15:00:58 zakim, I am ??P12 15:00:58 +msporny; got it 15:04:25 + +1.408.338.aabb 15:05:22 +Ben_Adida 15:05:24 benadida has joined #rdfa 15:06:15 Topic: Action Items 15:07:05 Present: Ben_Adida, Michael_Hausenblas, Manu_Sporny, Shane_McCarron, Steven_Pemberton, Mark_Birbeck 15:07:20 Regrets: Ralph_Swick 15:07:57 Present+ Jeremy_Carroll 15:08:13 ACTION: Ben to figure out *how* to do the namespace-doc GRDDL thing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action18] 15:08:25 -- continues 15:11:11 ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] 15:11:21 -- continues 15:11:32 ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] 15:11:36 -- continues 15:11:41 zakim, mute me 15:11:41 markbirbeck should now be muted 15:11:49 ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] 15:11:54 -- continues 15:12:06 ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] 15:12:09 -- done 15:12:25 ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] 15:12:27 -- continues 15:12:59 ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] 15:13:02 -- drop 15:13:18 ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] 15:13:21 -- continues 15:13:30 Manu write a pending test case for literal property and no child nodes. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/0Manu write a pending test case for literal property and no child nodes. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]9/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] 15:13:32 JeremyCarroll has joined #rdfa 15:13:43 ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal property and no child nodes. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] 15:13:45 -- done 15:13:53 ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] 15:13:57 -- continues 15:14:15 Zakim, aabb is me 15:14:16 +JeremyCarroll; got it 15:14:30 Zakim, mute me 15:14:30 JeremyCarroll should now be muted 15:16:00 ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] 15:16:20 zakim, unmute me 15:16:20 markbirbeck should no longer be muted 15:16:57 -- continues 15:17:57 ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] 15:18:04 I found Steve Williams's mails and authorized them 15:19:02 -- continues 15:19:15 ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] 15:20:22 -- continues 15:20:38 ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] 15:20:47 -- continues 15:21:00 ACTION: Ralph to make http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action16] 15:21:02 -- continues 15:21:13 ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new XSLT URI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] 15:21:14 -- continues 15:21:22 http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/Overview.html 15:21:27 Michael: One tiny question, TPAC 15:21:44 Michael: Do we want to try and promote RDFa at that point? 15:21:45 -Steven 15:21:50 huh 15:21:57 zakim, dial steven-617 15:21:57 ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:22:01 +Steven 15:22:01 -Steven 15:22:09 Ben: Don't know, there might be a publishing moratorium. 15:22:15 zakim, pick on Steven. 15:22:15 I don't understand 'pick on Steven', msporny 15:22:20 zakim, dial steven-617 15:22:20 ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:22:22 +Steven 15:22:23 -Steven 15:22:27 I haven't yet decided 15:22:33 zakim, code? 15:22:33 the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven 15:22:34 will decide next week 15:22:47 Ben: It would be nice to make some sort of announcement. 15:23:04 Ben: Mark will you be there, or are you still working on it? 15:23:11 Mark: Almost certainly, but not sure. 15:23:29 +Steven 15:23:33 ACTION: Ben to determine how to highlight RDFa at TPAC 15:24:00 Ben: Yes, we should say something. 15:24:31 Topic: Danny Ayer's comments on PR Draft 15:24:44 Ben: is is mostly moot since Toby said that he didn't have any problems implementing? 15:24:56 q+ 15:25:01 Shane: Procedurally, it's 100% moot since you can't make those comments against a PR draft. 15:25:07 Ben: What kind of comments can you make at this point? 15:25:18 Shane: Basically, spelling errors, ship it, or throw it away. 15:25:34 Zakim, unmute me 15:25:34 JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 15:25:36 Shane: There is no way to make substantiative changes after PR. 15:25:46 Shane: So, that's procedural. 15:26:02 Jeremy: It is possible to make substantiative comments that are sufficiently compelling. 15:26:13 Jeremy: There may be minor comments that are small changes between PR and REC. 15:26:23 Shane: My understanding is that those can only be editorial changes. 15:26:48 Jeremy: I have seen it happen before, the team can make such a call. 15:27:18 Mark: Obviously we can discuss the finer points of procedure, but there were other issues there. 15:27:36 Mark: Most of his issues were gradually whittled down and he ended up agreeing with most of them. 15:27:45 Mark: There was one final comment, I think. 15:28:14 Mark: I think he has agreed with all but one comment. 15:28:23 Mark: There is one outstanding comment that I didn't reply to. 15:29:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Sep/0063.html 15:29:26 Zakim, mute me 15:29:26 JeremyCarroll should now be muted 15:29:50 Mark: That's not the right link. 15:29:52 Yes, I authorised them 15:30:01 Steven++ 15:30:22 Mark: woops, wrong link, the 0063.html link is correct. 15:30:27 Mark: I replied to it. 15:30:38 Mark responded with long email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Sep/0065.html 15:31:38 Mark: Hmm, I remember a different e-mail. 15:31:58 Mark: Nevermind, I responded to it. 15:32:17 ACTION: Ben to log Danny's issue to tracker. 15:32:18 Ben: Looks like we might be done. 15:32:45 Zakim, unmute me 15:32:45 JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 15:32:50 q+ 15:33:10 ACTION: Ben to close loop with Danny. 15:33:26 zakim, ack Jeremy 15:33:26 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:34:01 Jeremy: The RDFa document should not stop other RDFa style processing such as GRDDL. 15:34:24 Jeremy: I think we could make a small editorial change to make this clearer that we permit GRDDL. 15:34:48 Mark: We need to get a response from him - we said that we explicitly went out of our way to make this possible. 15:35:17 Mark: How do you get the graphs to talk to each other - our point is that you don't. You can have as many processors as you like running on the document. 15:35:23 Mark: We need to make sure that he's clear on that. 15:35:45 Jeremy: He's saying that instead of using 'default graph' that we use the term 'RDFa graph'. 15:36:05 Jeremy: That feels like a minor editorial change that makes things clearer. 15:36:19 Mark: It's not - an RDFa processor can derive as many graphs as it likes. 15:36:42 Mark: The tricky part is one processor + triples that are not immediately derivable from our processing rules. 15:36:58 Mark: For example, generating a triple for @alt. 15:37:23 Jeremy: What about if default graph, RDFa default graph? 15:37:32 +1 for RDFa default graph - seems harmless if it helps comprehension 15:37:46 Mark: I don't really mind, but we named it because of what direction we thought SPARQL was headed in. 15:38:09 Mark: I was trying to link this into SPARQL. 15:38:47 Mark: In SPARQL I can run a query against multiple graphs, or I can run a query against the default graph if I don't specify a graph. 15:39:14 Jeremy: I like that, it's tidy and neat. 15:39:31 Jeremy: I think the problem is that it hasn't been properly formalized in SPARQL. 15:39:54 Jeremy: If you look at how GRDDL spec is written, it is not making use of name/graph concepts. 15:40:16 Jeremy: partly because there isn't a name/graph transform - GRDDL says that we merge all graphs together. 15:40:41 Mark: Which is fine, because GRDDL is a way of extracting triples using multiple different types of extractors. 15:40:50 Mark: RDFa is addressing something different. 15:41:19 Mark: We want to keep things separate in the spec. 15:41:34 Mark: We hoped that people would know what we were doing, but they haven't gotten the hint. 15:41:43 Mark: I don't think we should get any more specific in the spec. 15:42:02 Mark: We can't refer to the term "default graph" because it's not defined anywhere yet, but we expect it to be. 15:42:13 Mark: We should ask Danny before we go ahead and change anything. 15:42:22 Ben: We'd rather not change wording if Danny is okay with it. 15:42:34 Jeremy: Good plan - small preference for RDFa default graph. 15:42:48 Jeremy: Mark's points make a lot of sense, but default graph is unstandardized as is. 15:43:06 Zakim, mute me 15:43:06 JeremyCarroll should now be muted 15:43:21 Ben: That should close Danny's issue. 15:43:36 scribe: Steven 15:43:59 http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/ 15:44:07 Manu: We've got the test harness 15:44:16 ... you'll see some new tests 15:44:38 ... click on "show detail" 15:45:02 ... test 113 15:45:34 ... (under 'unreviewed') 15:45:53 ... "element with @property and no child nodes generates empty plain literal" 15:46:02 Ben: Looks good 15:46:14 I like it. 15:46:50 +1 15:47:26 Ben: shouldn't an empty and a closed element be identical? 15:47:34 Shane: Depends on the DOM, HTML or XML 15:48:04 Ben: The test looks good 15:49:05 RESOLUTION: test 113 approved 15:49:14 Manu: Test 114 15:49:35 ... Relative URI 15:49:48 RFC3986 sec 5 15:51:13 Manu: Not a complete coverage 15:51:53 Steven: Text should say "Previous test case" 15:52:38 Shane: I'm not convinced that going up over the top of the tree flattens to nothing 15:53:00 Steven: Wouldn't it also be interesting to do it with about? 15:53:14 Manu: And the predicate? 15:53:19 Steven: I'm in favour 15:54:35 Shane: I would exercise all data types - CURIE CURIES URI URIS URI-OR-SAFE-CURIE 15:55:42 Michael: Approve? 15:55:48 Manu: Not sure. 15:56:28 Mark: The N3 is indeed wrong 15:56:47 pls paste a url for the n3 15:56:58 http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/ 15:57:06 @prefix cc: . 15:57:06 @prefix rdf: . 15:57:07 @prefix rdfs: . 15:57:09 @prefix xhv: . 15:57:11 @prefix xml: . 15:57:13 @prefix xsd: . 15:57:15 15:57:17 15:57:19 cc:attributionURL ; 15:57:22 xhv:prev ; 15:57:23 xhv:up . 15:57:38 Manu: Put on hold? 15:58:03 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt 15:58:06 section 5 15:58:06 Mark: Let me look at the spec 15:58:51 ... look at 5.4.2 15:59:08 Spec states this: 15:59:18 "../../../g" = "http://a/g" 15:59:22 "../../../../g" = "http://a/g" 15:59:55 Ben: So we agree that many ".."s only go up to the top? 16:00:02 Mark: That's what the spec says 16:00:06 "Parsers must be careful in handling cases where there are more ".." 16:00:07 segments in a relative-path reference than there are hierarchical 16:00:07 levels in the base URI's path. Note that the ".." syntax cannot be 16:00:07 used to change the authority component of a URI." 16:00:20 oh...Manu already pasted. :) 16:00:23 Shane: If a CURIE prefix is a relative URI 16:00:30 i agree. test ok. n3 is not. but n3 processing is not part of test being approved 16:00:31 ... we say that it is possible but a bad idea 16:00:36 ACTION: Manu to write up relative URL resolution targetting @about, @resource etc. for regular URLs, CURIE, and CURIEs 16:00:49 q+ 16:01:11 Shane: do we think that it gets resolved at declaration time or when the CURIE is resolved 16:01:25 Mark: I think the spec is clear on this 16:01:54 ... so relative URLs are resolved late 16:02:12 RESOLVED: Accept TC 113 as is. 16:02:19 scribe: msporny 16:02:21 ... namespaces can be relative, but is thought to be a bad idea 16:02:26 thanks steven :) 16:02:29 np 16:02:31 RESOLVED: Accept TC 113 as is. 16:02:37 RESOLVED: Accept TC 114 as is. 16:02:43 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 16:03:07 Shane: I think we do have a clear mapping here. 16:03:22 Shane: Look at section 5.4.2 - good idea not to use relative paths in namespace declarations. 16:03:33 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:04:17 Mark: It's the reason we leave XML base out of there. 16:04:27 Shane: it does solve this problem 16:04:38 Mark: It does create some new potential problems. 16:04:51 Zakim, unmute me 16:04:51 JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 16:04:55 Ben: Issue that Jeremy brought up. 16:04:56 i/Scribe: Steven/Topic: Test cases 16:05:08 Shane: let's leave it, big topic. 16:05:14 Ben: On vacation next week. 16:05:57 Michael: I've done the approval now in the test harness - http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/ should refelect it already ... 16:06:01 Ben: We need to publish primer too and need publication schedule. 16:06:05 -ShaneM 16:06:06 -markbirbeck 16:06:07 -JeremyCarroll 16:06:07 -Steven 16:06:08 -Ben_Adida 16:06:09 -Michael_Hausenblas 16:06:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:06:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-minutes.html msporny 16:07:13 [adjourned] 16:07:26 Zakim, bye 16:07:26 leaving. As of this point the attendees were ShaneM, Michael_Hausenblas, Steven, +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck, msporny, +1.408.338.aabb, Ben_Adida, JeremyCarroll 16:07:26 Zakim has left #rdfa 16:07:32 rrsagent, bye 16:07:32 I see 20 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-actions.rdf : 16:07:32 ACTION: Ben to figure out *how* to do the namespace-doc GRDDL thing [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action18] [1] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-08-13 16:07:32 ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [2] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-11-11 16:07:32 ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [3] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-11-32 16:07:32 ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [4] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-11-49 16:07:32 ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action06] [5] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-12-06 16:07:32 ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action07] [6] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-12-25 16:07:32 ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [7] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-12-59 16:07:32 ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [8] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-13-18 16:07:32 ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal property and no child nodes. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] [9] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-13-43 16:07:32 ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [10] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-13-53 16:07:32 ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [11] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-16-00 16:07:32 ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [12] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-17-57 16:07:32 ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [13] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-19-15 16:07:32 ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [14] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-20-38 16:07:32 ACTION: Ralph to make http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action16] [15] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-21-00 16:07:32 ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new XSLT URI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action17] [16] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-21-13 16:07:32 ACTION: Ben to determine how to highlight RDFa at TPAC [17] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-23-33 16:07:32 ACTION: Ben to log Danny's issue to tracker. [18] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-32-17 16:07:32 ACTION: Ben to close loop with Danny. [19] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T15-33-10 16:07:32 ACTION: Manu to write up relative URL resolution targetting @about, @resource etc. for regular URLs, CURIE, and CURIEs [20] 16:07:32 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-irc#T16-00-36 16:08:09 Michael, I'll clean up the minutes and send them to Ralph 16:08:46 yeah, Manu - if he's around and reads it ;) 16:08:54 :)