IRC log of tagmem on 2008-09-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:45:52 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
16:46:03 [skw]
zakim, this will be tag
16:46:03 [Zakim]
ok, skw; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
16:48:04 [jar]
16:48:43 [DanC]
topic is an IRC protocol thingy. so it's: /topic blah blah...
16:48:58 [jar]
jar has changed the topic to:
16:49:02 [skw]
skw has changed the topic to:
16:49:44 [skw]
Meeting: TAG Weekly Telcon
16:49:53 [skw]
Chair: Stuart Williams
16:50:05 [skw]
Scribe: Ashok Malhotra
16:50:26 [skw]
Regrets: Noah, Norm
16:58:06 [skw]
regrets +DaveO(partial)
16:58:45 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:58:51 [Zakim]
16:58:59 [skw]
zakim, ?? is me
16:58:59 [Zakim]
+skw; got it
16:59:17 [Zakim]
17:00:46 [Ashok]
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17:01:12 [Zakim]
17:02:26 [raman]
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17:02:49 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:02:49 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:02:51 [Zakim]
17:03:48 [Zakim]
17:04:45 [Ashok]
scribenick: Ashok
17:06:34 [Ashok]
Regrets: Noah, Norm, partial regrets DaveO
17:06:48 [Ashok]
No comments on agenda
17:07:20 [Ashok]
Minutes from Sep 4 approved
17:08:06 [Zakim]
17:08:11 [Ashok]
Next week call a risk. Regets from Tim. Stuart may not be able to make it
17:08:27 [Ashok]
HT: Use the time to read our documents
17:08:44 [Ashok]
Cancel next week's meeting
17:08:54 [jar]
+1 use the time to read
17:08:55 [Ashok]
Next meeting f2f
17:10:05 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: q+
17:10:08 [Ashok]
Raman: If we are serious abt this, all TAG members shd read the HTML spec
17:10:11 [DanC]
17:10:18 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to:
17:10:28 [skw]
ack danc
17:11:30 [Ashok]
DanC: Please create reading list and Agenda for f2f
17:11:42 [Ashok]
Agenda Item 3: Binary XML
17:11:44 [DanC]
s/create/let's finish/
17:12:08 [ht]
q+ to acknowledge my EXI actions
17:12:20 [skw]
ack ht
17:12:21 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to acknowledge my EXI actions
17:12:52 [Ashok]
HT: I will read these on the 'plane and make a recommendation on what we shd do
17:14:05 [Ashok]
DanC: Last, we said tell us how you are better than gzip
17:14:20 [Ashok]
HT: That's where we are
17:14:44 [Ashok]
Item 4: URNs and Registries
17:14:47 [DanC]
(though Dec sounds wierd... I thought our request was since Dec)
17:16:01 [Ashok]
HT: I'm working on anew document. Shd have it ready middle on next week
17:16:16 [Ashok]
s/anew/a new/
17:17:08 [DanC]
close action-167
17:17:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-167 S to start a thread on non-DNS authority resolution on www-tag closed
17:17:35 [Ashok]
DanC: What's happening with XRIs?
17:18:17 [Ashok]
SKW: Summarizes situation
17:18:49 [Ashok]
We have not had a formal proposal saying would you be happy with ...
17:19:40 [DanC]
q+ to check whether skw meant it when he said "prefix", since DNS names go least-significant-first
17:20:22 [Ashok]
SKW: We had a discussion on how the discussion was going
17:22:45 [skw]
ack danc
17:22:45 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to check whether skw meant it when he said "prefix", since DNS names go least-significant-first
17:22:55 [ht]
q+ to say there's one thing we will need to chase no matter what
17:23:56 [DanC]
does either booth or bradly advocate an actual prefix?
17:24:04 [skw]
ack ht
17:24:04 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to say there's one thing we will need to chase no matter what
17:24:25 [ht]
Abstract Identifier document:
17:26:04 [Ashok]
SKW: That's not the proposal
17:26:26 [jar]
(Out of order) saying "http://xri.*/*" are XRIS is same as saying "http://*/ark:*" are ARKs ...
17:26:58 [ht]
And I think there is _some_ room to argue that both of these are OK, if not ideal
17:27:16 [Ashok]
Item 5: Self-Describing Web
17:27:48 [Ashok]
Noah has incorporated feedback from Norm and SKW:
17:28:13 [ht]
q+ to ask a question
17:28:15 [DanC]
q+ to think about whether RDFa is critical path: if we leave it aside, what's the audience/purpose?
17:28:18 [Ashok]
SKW: Norm and I would be supportive of publication
17:28:23 [skw]
ack ht
17:28:23 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to ask a question
17:28:58 [Ashok]
ht: In a discussion with a student I realized ...
17:29:00 [ht]
I believe the following: "FYN works iff every party to the story is a) publically accountable
17:29:00 [ht]
and b) aware of the dependency of the FYN story on their part of it.
17:29:02 [ht]
17:29:43 [DanC]
I think you can follow-your-nose into policies and such that aren't world-readable
17:29:49 [DanC]
17:30:16 [Ashok]
DanC: I would not say 'publically accounatable"
17:30:20 [skw]
17:30:38 [Ashok]
HT: The parties have to be publically accountable
17:31:07 [Ashok]
SKW: The draft does not say this
17:31:26 [Ashok]
HT: I would like to discuss this
17:31:34 [Ashok]
SKW: Pl. send comment
17:31:51 [Ashok]
DanC: I disagree for 3 reasons
17:32:26 [DanC]
(I ran out after 2)
17:32:53 [DanC]
(1) need not be world-readable
17:33:04 [DanC]
(2) the URI for text/plain isn't actually critical path
17:33:07 [DanC]
... currently
17:33:21 [DanC]
(though it's nice that the text/plain full URI is in an RFC)
17:33:27 [Ashok]
HT: I will send mail on this
17:33:29 [DanC]
ack danc
17:33:29 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to think about whether RDFa is critical path: if we leave it aside, what's the audience/purpose? and to
17:33:30 [skw]
ack danc
17:34:03 [Ashok]
DanC: How can we finish without RDFa story?
17:34:58 [Ashok]
DanC: I'm not sure story holds up
17:35:28 [Ashok]
SKW: can we document missing link and encourage them to put it in place.
17:35:47 [skw]
17:35:53 [Ashok]
Item 6 on Agenda
17:36:52 [Ashok]
SKW: Talks abt the f2f agenda. Thanks Raman for his help
17:37:14 [Ashok]
DanC: I would like to negotiate the reading list now
17:37:14 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:37:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see skw, Jonathan_Rees, Raman, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, DanC.a
17:38:28 [DanC]
I hear from skw: urnsregs, binaryxml, html*,
17:38:32 [DanC]
digest of ?
17:38:39 [Ashok]
SKW: Shd read binary XML specs, HTML spec, collected digest of refernces from Raman's thread
17:38:42 [DanC]
self-describing web draft
17:38:55 [DanC]
passwords in the clear
17:38:58 [Ashok]
Self-describing Web, Password in Clear, Versioning
17:39:01 [DanC]
versioning revision from david
17:39:45 [Zakim]
17:39:58 [Ashok]
Need two readers for Binary XML, HT is one.
17:41:04 [Ashok]
URNs AneRegistries ... HT writing paper. Due Tuesday. Shd be read by f2f
17:41:54 [DanC]
* tim's bit
17:41:56 [Ashok]
HT: We shd alll have read Tim's paper
17:42:07 [Ashok]
17:42:22 [skw]
also had an explicit request from David for Jar's formal treatment...
17:42:26 [ht]
17:43:20 [DanC]
"the document"... one document on versioning?
17:43:30 [DanC]
DO nominates JAR's formalism
17:43:41 [Zakim]
17:44:03 [Zakim]
17:44:06 [Ashok]
DaveO: What is new is Jonathan's formalism. Recommend people read this by f2f
17:44:28 [DanC]
DO: key chapter is ch5
17:44:38 [Ashok]
DaveO: Please review Chapter 5. That is new and is key
17:46:27 [DanC]
HT nominates SVG and HTML thread from public-html... a dozen messages
17:46:58 [Ashok]
HT: Read SVG and HTML thread. Read 10 msgs and get a feeling of the context
17:47:02 [DanC]
TVR 2nds... long thread... read for motivations
17:47:43 [jar]
q+ html5/w3c history?
17:47:54 [jar]
q+ jar
17:48:00 [DanC]
(looks like TVR's agenda input subsumes HT's suggestion to read a thread)
17:48:15 [noah]
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17:49:14 [Ashok]
TVR: Read HTML spec with a view thru the structuring lens I proposed
17:49:38 [Zakim]
17:49:57 [Ashok]
JR: Is there a document that tells why W3C got involved in html5
17:50:55 [noah]
Are you discussing reading list?
17:51:04 [jar]
17:51:12 [jar]
17:51:37 [Ashok]
DanC: I can point to formal mataerial but that's not what you want
17:53:03 [DanC]
on mime types... a section of the html spec
17:54:13 [DanC]
pwinc fri
17:54:18 [noah]
Friday's OK if short, I think.
17:54:28 [DanC]
(thanks; I was just gonna ask for irc convirmation)
17:55:17 [Ashok]
Noah: Are we all supposed to read whole HTML spec?
17:56:46 [DanC]
nm nominates thread on meeting goals
17:57:11 [Ashok]
Noah: Please read thread on Tag Soup
17:57:50 [Ashok]
HT: Norm is not coming to Kansas City
17:58:24 [skw]
I think that the thread Noah referred to is based at:
18:00:35 [Ashok]
DanC: I will send mail before EOD after editing agenda page
18:01:08 [Ashok]
Possible topic GenricResources-53
18:01:25 [Ashok]
Content negotiation and Abstract Documents
18:01:42 [Ashok]
Not on agenda currently. You can looby me.
18:02:16 [Ashok]
18:02:55 [Ashok]
TVR: Steve said he was pulling in my TPAC proposal
18:03:13 [Ashok]
Item 8 -- AbberviatedURI-56
18:04:00 [Ashok]
SKW: Asks abt status of CURIE comments
18:04:18 [DanC]
(anybody have a summary of the comment? the subject line was a generic "comments on X")
18:04:32 [Ashok]
Noah: That's for responder to say
18:05:08 [Ashok]
SKW: Summarizez comments
18:05:43 [Ashok]
Editorial: Qnames never inted as attribute values. Some discussion on this
18:06:07 [DanC]
(pls promote that "main substantive comment" to the subject line)
18:06:11 [Ashok]
SKW: Definition of XML Schema datatype
18:06:16 [ht]
Please remember that we have already fed back on this point, see
18:06:23 [ht]
q+ to point to our earlier comments
18:06:41 [DanC]
18:06:51 [skw]
18:07:48 [Ashok]
AM: Noah you had a comment on lack of clarity between CURIE and URI where there is ambiguity
18:09:27 [Ashok]
Noah: I sent this as a personal comment. If no objection, I can add to my note
18:10:14 [skw]
18:10:31 [jar]
the whole point of safecurie was so that they can be put in uri contexts
18:11:12 [skw]
18:11:13 [DanC]
yes, now that I understand the comment, it seems to miss the point of safecuries
18:11:31 [noah]
Well, it hijacks the use of [ in everyone's languages.
18:11:38 [Ashok]
Raman: I'm uncomfotable with this. We need to allow new syntax in old contexts
18:11:45 [DanC]
q+ daveo
18:11:58 [skw]
ack jar
18:12:01 [noah]
q+ to say implying safecuries can be used in existing languages where URIs are expected hijacks the use of [ in those languages.
18:12:34 [skw]
ack ht
18:12:58 [Ashok]
jar: If there was no intention of extensing URI content there would be no CURIEs
18:13:00 [jar]
RDFa already would violate a prohibition on safecuries. It's too late to prohibit safecuries
18:13:27 [jar]
s/no CURIEs/no SafeCURIEs/
18:13:41 [Ashok]
HT: We shd be careful abt distinguishing between CURIE's and SafeCURIES
18:13:41 [DanC]
<ht> Please remember that we have already fed back on this point, see
18:13:59 [noah]
18:14:35 [Ashok]
HT: We shd not go back on that advice
18:15:48 [Ashok]
TVR: The way Noah phrased it it sets a very high bar for new syntax
18:15:56 [jar]
Two questions here! (1) CURIEs in URI contexts? (No.) (2) SafeCURIEs in URI contexts? (RDFa requires.)
18:16:11 [Zakim]
18:16:30 [Zakim]
18:16:39 [skw]
ack noah
18:16:39 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say implying safecuries can be used in existing languages where URIs are expected hijacks the use of [ in those languages.
18:16:46 [Zakim]
18:18:13 [Ashok]
Noah: Explains his POV ... I shd open my spec to other syntax
18:18:28 [jar]
relative URIs can start with [, yes?
18:18:35 [timbl]
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18:18:42 [Ashok]
They shd make clear that these things are not URis
18:18:45 [skw]
ack daveo
18:19:16 [Ashok]
DaveO: Supports Noah. CURIEs cannot be wedged into existing specifiactions
18:19:18 [jar]
I repeat: There are two questions here! (1) CURIEs in URI contexts? (No.) (2) SafeCURIEs in URI contexts? (RDFa requires.)
18:19:46 [Zakim]
18:19:49 [DanC]
jar, does RDFa use <a href="[safecuri]">? I see deployment problems there.
18:20:00 [skw]
18:20:05 [Ashok]
DaveO: Must specify how CURIEs and URI are disambiguated
18:20:40 [jar]
no, but it allows safecuries in other uri contexts, I believe. will check.
18:21:19 [DanC]
ok. deployment considerations for a/@href are somewhat special
18:21:49 [Ashok]
TVR: XSLT uses { } is attribute value templates. Use of a special character
18:21:54 [jar]
ok, URIorSafeCURIE only occurs in attributes that are newly added by RDFa
18:21:56 [noah]
I did propose text to Shane on 8/29:
18:21:56 [noah]
18:21:56 [noah]
CURIEs and safe-CURIEs map to IRIs, but neither a CURIE nor a safe-CURIE
18:21:56 [noah]
<italic>is</italic> an IRI or URI. Accordingly, CURIEs and safe-CURIEs
18:21:56 [noah]
MUST NOT be used as values for attributes that are specified to contain
18:21:57 [noah]
only URIs, IRIs, URI-references, IRI-references, etc. Specifications for
18:22:03 [noah]
particular attribute values or other content MAY be written to allow
18:22:03 [noah]
either CURIEs or IRIs (or URIs, etc.). The specifications for such
18:22:03 [noah]
languages MUST provide rules for disambiguition in situations where the
18:22:05 [noah]
same string could be interpreted as either a CURIE or an IRI. One way to
18:22:07 [noah]
do this is to require that all CURIEs be expressed as safe-CURIEs,
18:22:09 [noah]
implying that all unbracketed strings are to be interpreted as IRIs.
18:22:11 [noah]
18:24:14 [Ashok]
TVR: I'm mostly OK with this.
18:25:02 [DanC]
18:25:06 [Ashok]
JAR: I'm bothered by saying "CURIES are not IRIs". There are bstrings that are both.
18:26:07 [DanC]
noodling... "neither every CURIE nor every safe-CURIE <italic>is</italic> an IRI or URI"
18:27:10 [Ashok]
Noah: I will put this in a note to the TAG list and people call comment
18:27:45 [Ashok]
18:28:36 [noah]
So, Stuart, what's the next step on the response.
18:28:44 [Ashok]
SKW: Let's conclude on email.
18:29:49 [noah]
SKW: Noah to redraft considering Stuart's proposal on intent of qnames and add 8/29 draft text on using CURIEs where URIs expected
18:30:44 [Ashok]
SHW: Any progress on 171
18:30:50 [Ashok]
Dan: No.
18:30:54 [Zakim]
18:30:57 [Zakim]
18:31:03 [Ashok]
zakim, make logs public
18:31:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make logs public', Ashok
18:31:06 [DanC]
p.s. any hosting issues?
18:31:27 [Ashok]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:31:41 [skw]
zakim, whois here?
18:31:41 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, skw.
18:31:51 [skw]
zakim, who is here?
18:31:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see skw, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, DanC.a
18:31:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see timbl, noah, raman, Ashok, RRSAgent, Zakim, skw, ht, jar, trackbot, DanC
18:31:56 [Ashok]
zakim, list participants
18:31:56 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been skw, Jonathan_Rees, Raman, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, DanC.a, Dave_Orchard, Noah_Mendelsohn
18:32:18 [Ashok]
rrsagent, pointer
18:32:18 [RRSAgent]
18:43:40 [raman]
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18:54:06 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, DanC.a, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
18:54:08 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:54:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were skw, Jonathan_Rees, Raman, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, DanC.a, Dave_Orchard, Noah_Mendelsohn
19:54:35 [DanC]
hmm... decisions decisions...
19:54:43 [DanC]
collect all preparation materials in one place in the agenda...
19:54:54 [DanC]
or tuck them under the relevant items?
19:55:00 [DanC]
I lean toward tucking, so far
19:55:48 [DanC]
hmm... how to do a crawl-and-zip...?
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