IRC log of rif on 2008-09-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:30 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:55:30 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-rif-irc
14:55:36 [ChrisW]: zakim, this will be rif
14:55:39 [Zakim]: ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:53 [ChrisW]: Meeting: RIF Telecon 9-Sep-2008
14:56:32 [ChrisW]: Chair: Chris Welty
14:56:44 [ChrisW]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0085.html
14:56:57 [ChrisW]: ChrisW has changed the topic to: 9 Sept RIF Telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0085.html
14:57:08 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:08 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:57:14 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make logs public
14:58:07 [ChrisW]: zakim, clear agenda
14:58:07 [Zakim]: agenda cleared
14:58:10 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Admin
14:58:14 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Liason
14:58:19 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Publicity
14:58:23 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Action review
14:58:28 [ChrisW]: agenda+ F2F11
14:58:32 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Core
14:58:36 [ChrisW]: agenda+ PRD
14:58:44 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Test Cases
14:58:49 [ChrisW]: agenda+ Pick a scribe
14:58:53 [ChrisW]: agenda+ AOB
14:59:06 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
14:59:06 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:00:42 [Harold]: Harold has joined #rif
15:01:30 [csma]: csma has joined #rif
15:01:44 [Leora_Morgenstern]: Leora_Morgenstern has joined #rif
15:02:13 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:02:20 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
15:02:22 [Zakim]: +[NRCC]
15:02:29 [ChrisW]: zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:29 [Zakim]: +ChrisW; got it
15:02:35 [Zakim]: +??P51
15:02:43 [csma]: zakim, ??P51 is me
15:02:43 [Zakim]: +csma; got it
15:02:58 [Harold]: zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:02:58 [Zakim]: +Harold; got it
15:03:00 [Zakim]: +Sandro
15:03:06 [DaveReynolds]: DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:03:10 [Zakim]: +LeoraMorgenstern
15:03:28 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:03:35 [Zakim]: +??P0
15:03:35 [Zakim]: +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P0)
15:04:16 [Hassan]: Hassan has joined #rif
15:04:29 [Zakim]: +Stella_Mitchell
15:04:41 [Zakim]: +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:05:45 [ChrisW]: Scribe: DaveReynolds
15:05:45 [PaulVincent]: PaulVincent has joined #RIF
15:06:15 [DaveReynolds]: ScribeNick: DaveReynolds
15:06:19 [sandro]: zakim, who is here?
15:06:20 [ChrisW]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/att-0043/20080902-rif-minutes.html
15:06:24 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ChrisW, Harold, csma, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, Stella_Mitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted)
15:06:31 [Zakim]: On IRC I see PaulVincent, Hassan, MichaelKifer, DaveReynolds, Leora_Morgenstern, csma, Harold, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, trackbot, AdrianP, StellaMItchell, LeoraMorgenstern,
15:06:31 [ChrisW]: PROPOSED: accept minutes from Sept 2 telecon
15:06:36 [Zakim]: ... YutingZhao, Zakim
15:06:56 [Zakim]: +??P60
15:07:13 [ChrisW]: RESOLVED: accept minutes from Sept 2 telecon
15:07:26 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:07:26 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:07:29 [csma]: zakim, mute me
15:07:29 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
15:07:41 [csma]: ack me
15:07:50 [Stella_Mitchell]: Stella_Mitchell has joined #rif
15:08:35 [csma]: zakim, ??P60 is ChanghaiKe
15:08:35 [Zakim]: +ChanghaiKe; got it
15:08:49 [Zakim]: +GaryHallmark
15:09:11 [Harold]: 4.3 Reasoning in OWL 2 RL and RDF Graphs using Rules
15:09:11 [Harold]: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles#Reasoning_in_OWL_2_RL_and_RDF_Graphs_using_Rules
15:09:38 [GaryHallmark]: GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:09:47 [DaveReynolds]: Sandro: OWL WG rule profile is progressing, at some point should look at the rules and check can be written in BLD
15:10:01 [DaveReynolds]: Sandro: compare with our embedding, etc.
15:10:09 [DaveReynolds]: Sandro: Jos critical path for some of that?
15:10:18 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: Impact on last call?
15:11:20 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: there were OWL WG participants in the SWC document, does OWL-2 have any impact on that?
15:11:43 [DaveReynolds]: Sandro: no evidence there is a problem, but should have someone who knows what they are doing look it over.
15:12:02 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-573 - Ask for a review of RDF&OWL from OWL-wg [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-09-16].
15:16:13 [ChrisW]: action: DaveReynolds to look at OWL-2-RL rules and consider whether they are implementable in BLD
15:16:13 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - DaveReynolds
15:16:15 [csma]: q?
15:16:27 [csma]: zakim, mute me
15:16:27 [Zakim]: csma should now be muted
15:16:28 [ChrisW]: action: Dave to look at OWL-2-RL rules and consider whether they are implementable in BLD
15:16:28 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-574 - Look at OWL-2-RL rules and consider whether they are implementable in BLD [on Dave Reynolds - due 2008-09-16].
15:16:53 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:16:53 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ChrisW, Harold, csma (muted), Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark
15:16:53 [csma]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:16:57 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ChrisW, Harold, csma (muted), Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark
15:17:06 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:17:06 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Publicity" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:17:17 [csma]: zakim, unmute me
15:17:17 [Zakim]: csma should no longer be muted
15:17:29 [AdrianPa]: AdrianPa has joined #rif
15:17:39 [Zakim]: +AdrianPa
15:17:46 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, mute me
15:17:46 [Zakim]: AdrianPa should now be muted
15:18:38 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: there is a Wiki page for linking external announcement postings, checking what have been executed
15:18:47 [ChrisW]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity
15:20:13 [ChrisW]: zakim, unmute AdrianPa
15:20:13 [Zakim]: AdrianPa should no longer be muted
15:22:12 [Zakim]: -AdrianPa
15:22:54 [csma]: q?
15:23:40 [AdrianPa]: AdrianPa has joined #rif
15:23:40 [sandro]: Harold: Michael posted to xsb, flora-users, [etc]
15:23:54 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:23:54 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:24:08 [csma]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2008Sep/0000.html
15:24:15 [DaveReynolds]: csma: have new public comment
15:24:33 [Zakim]: +AdrianP
15:24:42 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, mute me
15:24:42 [Zakim]: sorry, AdrianPa, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:24:56 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, AdrianPa is me
15:24:56 [Zakim]: sorry, AdrianPa, I do not recognize a party named 'AdrianPa'
15:25:11 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: need to start a wiki page on it, it is mostly about FLD
15:25:17 [DaveReynolds]: Harold: Michael is aware of it
15:25:19 [Harold]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_OK
15:26:04 [DaveReynolds]: Harold: created a page for response to Richard OK comments
15:26:53 [DaveReynolds]: ACTION-572 completed by Jos
15:27:15 [DaveReynolds]: s/OK/O'Keefe/
15:27:29 [DaveReynolds]: ACTION-570 pending discussion
15:27:53 [AdrianPa]: yes, will put it to top priority
15:28:14 [Hassan]: yes
15:28:41 [DaveReynolds]: ACTION-564 continued, waiting on APS discussions
15:29:02 [DaveReynolds]: Hassan: waiting for syntax to settle
15:29:31 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, mute me
15:29:31 [Zakim]: sorry, AdrianPa, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:29:32 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda
15:29:33 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:29:34 [Zakim]: 4. Action review [from ChrisW]
15:29:34 [Zakim]: 5. F2F11 [from ChrisW]
15:29:35 [Zakim]: 6. Core [from ChrisW]
15:29:35 [Zakim]: 8. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:29:37 [Zakim]: 9. Pick a scribe [from ChrisW]
15:29:37 [Zakim]: 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:30:24 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:30:24 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:31:08 [sandro]: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f11reg/
15:31:42 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: F2F11 proceeding as planned. Any objections to the proposed dinner should be raised now.
15:32:09 [ChrisW]: zakim, next item
15:32:09 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Core" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:32:15 [csma]: PROPOSED: Core will not have named-argument uniterms
15:33:02 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: seemed to be consensus on closing this at last discussion.
15:33:31 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: so why are they in BLD?
15:33:43 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: it was a close decision even there.
15:34:29 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: at that point there was an explicit flag that being in BLD didn't mean necessarily having them in Core
15:34:29 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is talking?
15:34:40 [Zakim]: ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (24%), ChrisW (5%), GaryHallmark (63%)
15:34:48 [ChrisW]: sandro - breathing
15:34:50 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: this doesn't seem like a painful thing to implement
15:34:57 [sandro]: sorry, I'll stop breathing.
15:35:22 [csma]: q?
15:35:37 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:35:37 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ChrisW, Harold, csma, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark, AdrianP
15:35:52 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, AdrianP is me
15:35:52 [Zakim]: +AdrianPa; got it
15:35:57 [DaveReynolds]: Sandro: don't object but it would be nice to have a clear rationale to explain the decision to others
15:35:58 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, mute me
15:35:58 [Zakim]: AdrianPa should now be muted
15:36:23 [DaveReynolds]: csma: want to keep the option of dialects that don't have it, if it is in Core then all dialects have to have it
15:36:25 [sandro]: csma: reason -- we want to keep the possibility of having dialects that don't have it. that's why not in core.
15:36:30 [MichaelKifer]: MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:37:16 [Zakim]: +Michael_Kifer
15:38:28 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: current open issues for Core - classification constructs (46), decideable (71), access to external functions (71), skolem functions (72), no predicates (74), disjunction (75)
15:38:28 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:38:28 [Zakim]: Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:40:24 [DaveReynolds]: Harold/Gary: disjunction not a no-brainer. Gary would like it or some equivalent.
15:41:20 [DaveReynolds]: Harold: equality not-in-head already agreed, 76 is about equality in body
15:42:12 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: straw poll for NOT equality-in-head in Core
15:42:18 [DaveReynolds]: [No objections voiced]
15:42:42 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: what would be needed to resolve 76?
15:42:56 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
15:42:56 [Zakim]: Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:43:03 [DaveReynolds]: Harold: relates to the issue of builtins - predicates or functions
15:43:14 [AdrianPa]: we discussed restricted equality in the body
15:43:23 [DaveReynolds]: Michael: disagrees, just an identity relationship, sees no reason not to include it
15:44:13 [DaveReynolds]: Hassan: becomes syntactic equality, most trivial
15:44:56 [Harold]: Even if you don't have an equality construct for the body, everyone could define it in one fact: eq(?x ?x).
15:46:42 [AdrianPa]: in PRD it is a single assignment function
15:47:13 [AdrianPa]: slightly different from equality assignment which might reduce to identy equality if both sides are bound
15:47:17 [Hassan]: = thens means are these two pointers identical
15:47:32 [Hassan]: s/thens/then/
15:48:17 [Hassan]: Can we have an example of where it is useful?
15:49:11 [DaveReynolds]: Dave: doesn't this require equation rewriting
15:49:18 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: yes but need that any way
15:49:21 [Harold]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#pred:numeric-equal_.28adapted_from_op:numeric-equal.29
15:49:32 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
15:49:32 [Zakim]: Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:49:59 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
15:49:59 [Zakim]: Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:50:15 [csma]: Adrian, what do you mean with "in PRD, it is a single assignment function"? You mean: equality?
15:50:26 [GaryHallmark]: A(?x) := A(?x - 1) requires expression rewriting for PRD
15:50:39 [GaryHallmark]: s/:=/:-
15:50:41 [Hassan]: I agree with Dave. We should spell out the criteria of what is or isn't in Core.
15:51:44 [sandro]: I think so, yes, some builting in core
15:51:44 [GaryHallmark]: i.e. rewrite to A(?x+1) :- A(?x)
15:51:51 [Hassan]: Arithmetic?
15:52:05 [DaveReynolds]: Michael: doesn't require any new mechanism beyond what you need for builtins anyway
15:54:13 [DaveReynolds]: Dave: but for builtins we have on the table the possibility of binding patterns to restrict use, that wouldn't apply to syntax constructs like this equality
15:54:45 [DaveReynolds]: Michael: binding pattern's aren't going to fly in Core anyway
15:55:55 [DaveReynolds]: Sandro: trying to see where someone would need it
15:55:55 [Harold]: My above eq(?x ?x) could be used for (single-)assignments, the above pred:numeric-equal(?arg1 ?arg2) could not.
15:56:15 [DaveReynolds]: Michael: consider use in prolog
15:56:15 [Harold]: This is because of the modes ("binding patterns")
15:56:45 [Harold]: eq(?myvar 1) is fine.
15:56:47 [DaveReynolds]: Dave: what about SWC and interaction with owl:sameAs
15:56:59 [DaveReynolds]: Michael: it is not identity over datatypes
15:57:04 [Harold]: pred:numeric-equal(?myvar 1) is not fine.
16:01:24 [DaveReynolds]: Dave: is there a difference between this equality and an untyped equality buitin?
16:01:39 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: seems the same
16:03:37 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 7
16:03:37 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "PRD" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:03:39 [Hassan]: gotta go - bye
16:03:43 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
16:03:43 [Zakim]: Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:03:45 [Zakim]: -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:03:46 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: wants to get this one closed, at least agree on a resolution next week
16:04:36 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: this is action-554 and issue-66
16:05:14 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: made several suggestions on object creation
16:05:32 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: basic issue is whether there is something that should be shared with Core/BLD
16:06:03 [AdrianPa]: I would vote for a special new built-in, too
16:06:24 [csma]: Why is that a builtin?
16:06:57 [AdrianPa]: this would allow new logic RIF dialects which support object creation
16:06:58 [csma]: I mean, why is that "New" construct a builtin, not an action (like Assert, Retract, etc)?
16:07:12 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: proposed options including builtin, skolem function like approach and new syntax
16:07:31 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: so would the group like something that can be in Core or should PRD go off in its own direction?
16:08:30 [DaveReynolds]: csma: don't understand why it is sometimes referred to as a builtin, isn't another action alongside assert?
16:09:18 [DaveReynolds]: csma: consider RETRACT, there is an action and associated keyword (same for ASSERT even if done differently)
16:10:01 [DaveReynolds]: csma: new is not a builtin because if you call it multiple times it gives different instances
16:10:28 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: yes, hence the need for an occurrence number - confusing the different options
16:10:48 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, unmute me
16:10:48 [Zakim]: AdrianPa should no longer be muted
16:10:59 [AdrianPa]: q+
16:12:59 [DaveReynolds]: Adrian: advantage of a builtin is that it can be used in other dialects, so can call it in the body of a new
16:14:32 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: builtin is a pure mathematical function, fixed interpretation function, so Gensym is not legal
16:15:31 [csma]: ack adrian
16:15:34 [DaveReynolds]: csma: preference is for option (a) then?
16:15:53 [DaveReynolds]: q+
16:15:56 [DaveReynolds]: q-
16:15:59 [AdrianPa]: Stakeholder for Assert and Retract are is e.g. a RIF Prolog dialect
16:16:26 [GaryHallmark]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0087.html
16:16:35 [AdrianPa]: Most prolog engines support assert and retract built-ins in the body of a rule
16:17:12 [AdrianPa]: Zakim, mute me
16:17:12 [Zakim]: AdrianPa should now be muted
16:18:51 [DaveReynolds]: Dave: do have some interest in option C, relates to issue of Skolem functions in Core.
16:19:16 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: so if have (a) in PRD and Skolem in Core how would they interact?
16:19:43 [csma]: q? to express concern about using a skolem function
16:19:59 [DaveReynolds]: Gary: the import becomes more difficult because it might be faced with either formulation
16:21:27 [DaveReynolds]: csma: Object creation is intrinsically non-logical concept, if we used skolem functions for this doesn't this confuse things at least for implementers
16:22:41 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: need to get these issues moved to closure, time is running out
16:23:19 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: would like Gary and Harold to organize telecons for PRD and Core to progress these issues further
16:23:59 [AdrianPa]: yes, good idea. Let's have a PRD task force with telecons
16:24:03 [DaveReynolds]: csma: include others, not just editors, not closed
16:24:48 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: yes, announce telecons on the mail list so stakeholders can participate
16:25:14 [DaveReynolds]: csma: resolutions would still be made in the whole WG telecons
16:26:48 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: free to use Zakim bridge for this
16:27:26 [ChrisW]: zakim, list agenda
16:27:26 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:27:28 [Zakim]: 6. Core [from ChrisW]
16:27:28 [Zakim]: 8. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
16:27:30 [Zakim]: 9. Pick a scribe [from ChrisW]
16:27:30 [Zakim]: 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:27:36 [ChrisW]: zakim, take up item 8
16:27:36 [Zakim]: agendum 8. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:28:04 [AdrianPa]: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
16:28:45 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: plan is to go through TestCases and approve them
16:29:09 [DaveReynolds]: ChrisW: in first OWL WG used these to given evidence that there are implementations and they are doing what the spec says
16:29:20 [DaveReynolds]: s/given/give/
16:29:49 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, unmute me
16:29:49 [Zakim]: Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:29:50 [AdrianPa]: unfortunately I will be travelling next week
16:30:01 [MichaelKifer]: zakim, mute me
16:30:01 [Zakim]: Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:30:08 [ChrisW]: zakim: take up item 10
16:30:11 [AdrianPa]: so can not particiapte but will cordinate with the other test case editors
16:30:14 [AdrianPa]: bye
16:30:24 [Zakim]: -GaryHallmark
16:30:26 [Zakim]: -Michael_Kifer
16:30:27 [Zakim]: -LeoraMorgenstern
16:30:28 [Zakim]: -StellaMitchell
16:30:28 [Zakim]: -Harold
16:30:30 [Zakim]: -AdrianPa
16:30:30 [ChrisW]: scribe for next week: MichaelKifer
16:30:38 [ChrisW]: zakim, list attendees
16:30:38 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been ChrisW, csma, Harold, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark, StellaMitchell, AdrianPa,
16:30:42 [Zakim]: ... Michael_Kifer
16:30:58 [ChrisW]: Regrets: JosDeBruijn AxelPolleres StuartTaylor
16:31:03 [ChrisW]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:03 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:31:29 [Zakim]: -Dave_Reynolds
16:33:46 [ChrisW]: zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, Sandro, ChanghaiKe
16:34:00 [ChrisW]: zakim, drop ChanghaiKe
16:34:00 [Zakim]: ChanghaiKe is being disconnected
16:34:02 [Zakim]: -ChanghaiKe
16:36:35 [Zakim]: -Sandro
16:36:38 [Zakim]: -ChrisW
16:36:39 [Zakim]: -csma
16:36:39 [Zakim]: SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:36:41 [Zakim]: Attendees were ChrisW, csma, Harold, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark, StellaMitchell, AdrianPa, Michael_Kifer