14:55:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:55:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc
14:55:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:55:15 <Ralph> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
14:55:21 <Ralph> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:55:21 <Zakim> ok, Ralph; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:26 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
14:55:42 <Ralph> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0123.html
14:56:06 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-08-21
14:59:37 <msporny> Did Ben send regrets?
14:59:53 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:59:56 <msporny> ... nor Steven or Jeremy? 
15:00:02 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:00:07 <ShaneM> steven said he was coming
15:00:39 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:00:47 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:00:47 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:01:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:19 <Zakim> +??P35
15:01:25 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P35
15:01:25 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:01:34 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?p35
15:01:34 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?p35'
15:01:44 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ??p35
15:01:44 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '??p35'
15:02:04 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am getting fed up with you
15:02:04 <Zakim> I don't understand 'i am getting fed up with you', markbirbeck
15:02:14 <msporny> zakim, I am ??IPcaller
15:02:14 <Zakim> sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '??IPcaller'
15:02:23 <msporny> zakim, I am IPcaller
15:02:23 <Zakim> ok, msporny, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
15:02:28 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
15:02:28 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?'
15:02:37 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ??P35
15:02:37 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '??P35'
15:02:48 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am P35
15:02:48 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named 'P35'
15:02:51 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
15:02:56 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?p35
15:02:56 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?p35'
15:03:11 <markbirbeck> zakim, callers
15:03:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'callers', markbirbeck
15:03:17 <Steven> zakim, call steven-617
15:03:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:03:18 <Zakim> +Steven
15:03:33 <Steven> zakim, drop steven
15:03:33 <Zakim> Steven is being disconnected
15:03:34 <Zakim> -Steven
15:03:35 <Ralph> zakim, msporny is really Mark
15:03:35 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
15:03:45 <Ralph> zakim, ipcaller is msporny
15:03:45 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:04:07 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:04:07 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:04:09 <Zakim> +Steven
15:04:24 <Zakim> -Steven
15:04:36 <Steven> zakimm call steven-617
15:04:44 <Steven> zakim, call steven-617
15:04:44 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:04:46 <Zakim> +Steven
15:05:37 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ralph, ShaneM, msporny, Mark, Steven
15:06:27 <msporny> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary
15:06:35 <Ralph> Chair: Manu
15:06:38 <Ralph> Scribe: Ralph
15:06:52 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
15:06:59 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
15:07:04 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC about RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
15:07:11 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal property and no child nodes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:07:24 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite license on 28 Aug [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:07:28 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
15:07:29 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
15:07:38 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
15:07:46 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:07:53 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:08:02 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
15:08:06 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:08:09 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
15:09:02 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan.
15:09:17 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS.
15:09:46 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Michael to update Test Suite Manifest to correct tests 52 and 53 descriptions. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:09:52 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:09:57 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to make http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
15:10:01 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
15:10:08 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new XSLT URI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
15:10:14 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:10:38 <Ralph> Topic: Status of RDFa Syntax/Primer and CURIE spec
15:10:50 <Ralph> Ben: let's not discuss CURIE spec but I'd like a status update
15:11:06 <Ralph> Steven: the TAG asked for an extension of the comment period, which we've granted
15:11:29 <Ralph> ... so the actual deadline is the XHTML2 WG f2f at the Technical Plenary week
15:12:04 <Ralph> Shane: we do have some editorial changes since the CURIE Last Call which you'll find reflected in the editor's draft
15:12:36 <Ralph> Ben: anything the XHTML2 WG needs from us?
15:12:58 <Ralph> Steven: the SemWeb Deployment WG agreed to provide a comment as well
15:13:24 <Ralph> Ralph: and Jeremy has that action on behalf of SWD
15:13:45 <Ralph> Ben: RDFa Syntax has been approved to go to PR by both SWD and XHTML2 WGs
15:14:08 <Ralph> ... we're missing a response from AlanR on issue 122
15:14:39 <Ralph> ... I neglected to ask the WG to explicitly review the Primer
15:14:51 <Ralph> s/review/vote to publish
15:15:14 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated RDFa Primer
15:15:59 <Ralph> Ralph: what about NoahM's late comment?
15:16:14 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0115.html Ralph's proposed response to Noah
15:18:27 <msporny> +1 for clarifying that RDFa applies to XHTML.
15:18:37 <Ralph> Ralph: I propose an editorial change to the Abstract
15:18:39 <Steven> +1
15:21:41 <mcdave> mcdave has joined #rdfa
15:21:46 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss conformance requirements
15:23:44 <Ralph> Ben: maybe the point about subsetting the graph is not correct anyway
15:23:56 <Ralph> ... if a parser only produces part of the graph, it may not be doing the right thing
15:24:04 <Ralph> Manu: we shouldn't say that it's OK to ignore triples
15:24:17 <Ralph> Ben: it would only be implementing half of the parser
15:24:51 <Ralph> Shane: it's easy to separate the philosophical issue from the actual comment we have received
15:25:04 <Ralph> ... the comment suggests that we move the _processor_ conformance requirements elsewhere
15:25:07 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/PR-rdfa-syntax-20080905/#s_conformance
15:25:09 <Ralph> ... I disagree with this comment
15:25:15 <Ralph> ... we have 3 subsections of our conformance requirements
15:25:28 <Ralph> ... 4.1 talks about _document_ conformance and is about markup
15:25:35 <Ralph> ... 4.2 talks about user agent conformance
15:25:41 <Ralph> ... 4.3 talks about processor conformance
15:25:49 <Ralph> ... these are all necessary and are all fine as they are
15:26:16 <Steven> q+
15:26:18 <Ralph> ... the philosophical discussion about whether it's ok to subset the triples would be a 4.4 and we don't need to have that discussion today
15:26:20 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss conformance requirements
15:26:43 <Ralph> ... the sort of processor we've talked about is one that gives you _all_ the triples
15:27:50 <Ralph> Ralph: agree with Shane's separation of those issues
15:28:10 <Ralph> ... don't engage in the philosophical debate about subsetting now
15:28:30 <Ralph> Steven: I think Noah is thinking about optimizations
15:28:36 <Ralph> ... we don't need to say anything about this
15:28:57 <Ralph> ... if an application optimizes away something and we can't tell from the outside, it doesn't matter
15:29:13 <Ralph> ... if the application produces the same results as one that did not optimize, we don't care
15:30:08 <markbirbeck> q+
15:30:12 <Ralph> ... "as long as the output is the same as if the application had produced the full graph, we don't care"
15:30:24 <Ralph> Ben: we just talk about producing the graph
15:30:36 <Ralph> Shane: technically we just talk about the _processor_
15:30:56 <Ralph> Ben: so the _application_ is out of our scope
15:31:55 <Ralph> Mark: Noah may not be trying to distinguish between the application layer and the processor layer
15:32:53 <Ralph> ... however, the idea of the default graph runs through both the language and the processor and I don't see a simple way to separate these quickly
15:33:54 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #rdfa
15:34:09 <Zakim> +Michael_Hausenblas
15:34:10 <Ralph> ... I don't think the comment is so much about a distinction between application layers and processor layers
15:35:27 <Ralph> Ralph: so a combination of Shane's 3 points and the idea that the default graph is intertwined throughout makes us not wish to do a major document rearrangement at this time
15:38:47 <Steven> I think in Noah's mail that he meant <prefix:html xmlns:prefix="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">" 
15:39:28 <ShaneM> New test: A strictly conforming XHTML+RDFa document is a document that requires only the facilities described as mandatory in this specification. Such a document satisfies the following criteria:
15:39:35 <ShaneM> s/test/text/
15:41:31 <Ralph> ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker
15:41:51 <Ralph> Ben: I've already written the transform to produce the CR Disposition of Comments
15:42:07 <Ralph> Shane: I've already integrated all of the changes proposed in Ralph's message
15:43:36 <Ralph> Topic: HTML5/RDFa discussion
15:43:59 <Ralph> Ben: background on why this discussion is taking place now rather than later
15:44:22 <Ralph> ... Creative Commons has been working on the ccRel specification for a while
15:44:39 <Ralph> ... we decided to submit it to W3C to be published as a Member Submission
15:44:55 <Ralph> ... it got a lot of attention when W3C published it
15:45:00 <Ralph> ... and it mentions RDFa
15:45:09 <Ralph> ... so that started the discussion
15:46:20 <mhausenblas> -> http://news.oreilly.com/2008/08/html4ever-or-the-next-logical.html my 2c on the ongoing HTML5 discussion :)
15:48:21 <Ralph> -> @@ HTML5 discussion
15:49:08 <Ralph> s/@@/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Aug/
15:52:09 <Ralph> Shane: why isn't this discussion on the HTML WG list?
15:52:14 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/ HTML WG list
15:54:39 <mhausenblas> q+ re IR
15:54:45 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:54:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:54:59 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:55:52 <ShaneM> been pondering HTML4 and RDFa - some noodling here:  http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4
15:56:30 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah
15:57:38 <Ralph> Manu: there's not a lot of understanding of RDF, RDF/XML, and RDFa and the differences within the HTML WG; we're building an understanding of the benefits of structured data in markup
15:59:03 <Ralph> Michael: I saw Guus' announcement requesting PR transition
15:59:10 <Ralph> ... should I update the implementation report now?
15:59:19 <Steven> If all design was done by paving cow paths, no one would ever build bridges
16:01:10 <Ralph> Ralph: sure, fine to add to the Implementation Report
16:01:26 <Ralph> ... it will be useful the the Director when the PR transition decision is made (next week)
16:01:42 <Ralph> Topic: Microformats.org using RDFa as expression language?
16:02:02 <markbirbeck> q+
16:02:07 <Ralph> Manu: folk are getting tired of the problem that a new microformats parser is needed every time a new microformat is created
16:02:38 <Ralph> ... the question now being considered within the microformats community is whether to reuse the RDFa attributes but not put URIs in them
16:02:45 <Ralph> ... what would we think about this?
16:02:55 <Ralph> Mark: I like the sentiment but I take issue with the specifics
16:03:37 <Ralph> ... in a previous discussion we'd debated whether attributes ought to have different meanings in different contexts and decided they should not
16:03:57 <Ralph> ... now we have a fixed list of values recognized in CURIEs when they appear without a prefix
16:03:58 <benadida> q+
16:04:05 <Ralph> ... it would not be too hard to make that list extensible by others
16:04:30 <Ralph> ... e.g. within this DIV, unprefixed names come from <somewhere else>
16:04:36 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss CURIEs and microformats
16:04:41 <Ralph> ... would be a bridge between microformats and RDFa
16:04:54 <Ralph> Ben: I second that
16:04:56 <msporny> q+
16:05:15 <Ralph> ... microformats repurpose some HTML attributes
16:05:36 <Ralph> ... and the Accessiblity community raised issues with this; e.g. misuse of @title
16:06:01 <Ralph> ... as RDFa explicitly ignores other unprefixed values in CURIEs, that's an extensibility opportunity
16:06:11 <Ralph> ... but redefining @typeof would be a mistake
16:06:46 <Ralph> ... if the goal is to get to a single parser vs. a parser-per-microformat then our goal is to be sure that the markup always means the same thing
16:06:51 <Ralph> ... so let's work on that together
16:06:52 <msporny> q+ abbr pattern and semantic mis-use of elements.
16:07:13 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss CURIEs and microformats
16:07:38 <Ralph> Shane: our reserved values _are_ interpreted as URIs at the end of the day
16:08:00 <Ralph> Manu: what microformats really cares about is to be able to write @rel='title' without having to explain anything else
16:08:19 <Ralph> ... their concern is that to have to add a ':' would be difficult to explain to users
16:08:31 <Ralph> ... the underlying implementation is less of a concern; it's about the actual markup
16:09:30 <markbirbeck> I believe the key to this is to make a really simple 'flip' in CURIEs (wish we'd thought of it before). Instead of @rel="license" being an 'unprefixed' value, we should see it as 'unsuffixed'.
16:09:35 <Ralph> Shane: we'll need to prioritize where we put our effort next and this could be it if it gets the microformat community into the fold more quickly
16:10:03 <markbirbeck> Then all we're concerned about is providing more and more techniques for defining prefixes.
16:10:16 <markbirbeck> @xmlns was always seen as only one way to define a prefix.
16:10:26 <Ralph> Manu: as long as there's someone from RDFa advising the microformat community we should be in good shape
16:11:08 <Ralph> Ben: I appreciate Mark's foresight in pushing for RDFa to ignore unprefixed values
16:12:00 <Ralph> [adjourned]
16:12:23 <Ralph> Michael: regrets for next week
16:12:24 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address RDFa as unified markup for uFs.
16:12:29 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:12:31 <Zakim> -Michael_Hausenblas
16:12:31 <Zakim> -Mark
16:12:32 <Zakim> -Steven
16:12:33 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:12:35 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
16:12:35 <Zakim> -msporny
16:12:39 <Ralph> Ralph: I'm available next week but not the two weeks after that
16:12:44 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:12:45 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, ShaneM, Steven, Mark, msporny, Ben_Adida, Michael_Hausenblas
16:12:55 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:12:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:13:17 <Ralph> zakim, bye
16:13:17 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:13:19 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:13:19 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-actions.rdf :
16:13:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [1]
16:13:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-09-02
16:13:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS. [2]
16:13:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-09-17
16:13:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated RDFa Primer [3]
16:13:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-15-14
16:13:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [4]
16:13:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-41-31
16:13:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah [5]
16:13:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-56-30
16:13:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [6]
16:13:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T16-12-24