IRC log of rdfa on 2008-08-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:55:05 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

14:55:05 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc

14:55:09 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #rdfa

14:55:15 [Ralph]

Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

14:55:21 [Ralph]

zakim, this will be rdfa

14:55:21 [Zakim]

ok, Ralph; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

14:55:26 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make record public

14:55:42 [Ralph]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0123.html

14:56:06 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-08-21

14:59:37 [msporny]

Did Ben send regrets?

14:59:53 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

14:59:56 [msporny]

... nor Steven or Jeremy?

15:00:02 [Zakim]

+Ralph

15:00:07 [ShaneM]

steven said he was coming

15:00:39 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

15:00:47 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

15:00:47 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

15:01:18 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:01:19 [Zakim]

+??P35

15:01:25 [msporny]

zakim, I am ??P35

15:01:25 [Zakim]

+msporny; got it

15:01:34 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?p35

15:01:34 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?p35'

15:01:44 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ??p35

15:01:44 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '??p35'

15:02:04 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am getting fed up with you

15:02:04 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'i am getting fed up with you', markbirbeck

15:02:14 [msporny]

zakim, I am ??IPcaller

15:02:14 [Zakim]

sorry, msporny, I do not see a party named '??IPcaller'

15:02:23 [msporny]

zakim, I am IPcaller

15:02:23 [Zakim]

ok, msporny, I now associate you with [IPcaller]

15:02:28 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

15:02:28 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?'

15:02:37 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ??P35

15:02:37 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '??P35'

15:02:48 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am P35

15:02:48 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named 'P35'

15:02:51 [Steven]

Steven has joined #rdfa

15:02:56 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?p35

15:02:56 [Zakim]

sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?p35'

15:03:11 [markbirbeck]

zakim, callers

15:03:11 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'callers', markbirbeck

15:03:17 [Steven]

zakim, call steven-617

15:03:17 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:03:18 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:03:33 [Steven]

zakim, drop steven

15:03:33 [Zakim]

Steven is being disconnected

15:03:34 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:03:35 [Ralph]

zakim, msporny is really Mark

15:03:35 [Zakim]

+Mark; got it

15:03:45 [Ralph]

zakim, ipcaller is msporny

15:03:45 [Zakim]

+msporny; got it

15:04:07 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

15:04:07 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:04:09 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:04:24 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:04:36 [Steven]

zakimm call steven-617

15:04:44 [Steven]

zakim, call steven-617

15:04:44 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

15:04:46 [Zakim]

+Steven

15:05:37 [Steven]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:05:37 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Ralph, ShaneM, msporny, Mark, Steven

15:06:27 [msporny]

http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

15:06:35 [Ralph]

Chair: Manu

15:06:38 [Ralph]

Scribe: Ralph

15:06:52 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]

15:06:59 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

15:07:04 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC about RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]

15:07:11 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal property and no child nodes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

15:07:24 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite license on 28 Aug [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

15:07:28 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

15:07:29 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

15:07:38 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

15:07:46 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

15:07:53 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

15:08:02 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

15:08:06 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

15:08:09 [benadida]

benadida has joined #rdfa

15:09:02 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan.

15:09:17 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS.

15:09:46 [Ralph]

[DONE] ACTION: Michael to update Test Suite Manifest to correct tests 52 and 53 descriptions. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

15:09:52 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

15:09:57 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to make http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]

15:10:01 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]

15:10:08 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new XSLT URI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

15:10:14 [Ralph]

[PENDING] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

15:10:38 [Ralph]

Topic: Status of RDFa Syntax/Primer and CURIE spec

15:10:50 [Ralph]

Ben: let's not discuss CURIE spec but I'd like a status update

15:11:06 [Ralph]

Steven: the TAG asked for an extension of the comment period, which we've granted

15:11:29 [Ralph]

... so the actual deadline is the XHTML2 WG f2f at the Technical Plenary week

15:12:04 [Ralph]

Shane: we do have some editorial changes since the CURIE Last Call which you'll find reflected in the editor's draft

15:12:36 [Ralph]

Ben: anything the XHTML2 WG needs from us?

15:12:58 [Ralph]

Steven: the SemWeb Deployment WG agreed to provide a comment as well

15:13:24 [Ralph]

Ralph: and Jeremy has that action on behalf of SWD

15:13:45 [Ralph]

Ben: RDFa Syntax has been approved to go to PR by both SWD and XHTML2 WGs

15:14:08 [Ralph]

... we're missing a response from AlanR on issue 122

15:14:39 [Ralph]

... I neglected to ask the WG to explicitly review the Primer

15:14:51 [Ralph]

s/review/vote to publish

15:15:14 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated RDFa Primer

15:15:59 [Ralph]

Ralph: what about NoahM's late comment?

15:16:14 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0115.html Ralph's proposed response to Noah

15:18:27 [msporny]

+1 for clarifying that RDFa applies to XHTML.

15:18:37 [Ralph]

Ralph: I propose an editorial change to the Abstract

15:18:39 [Steven]

+1

15:21:41 [mcdave]

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15:21:46 [ShaneM]

q+ to discuss conformance requirements

15:23:44 [Ralph]

Ben: maybe the point about subsetting the graph is not correct anyway

15:23:56 [Ralph]

... if a parser only produces part of the graph, it may not be doing the right thing

15:24:04 [Ralph]

Manu: we shouldn't say that it's OK to ignore triples

15:24:17 [Ralph]

Ben: it would only be implementing half of the parser

15:24:51 [Ralph]

Shane: it's easy to separate the philosophical issue from the actual comment we have received

15:25:04 [Ralph]

... the comment suggests that we move the _processor_ conformance requirements elsewhere

15:25:07 [ShaneM]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/PR-rdfa-syntax-20080905/#s_conformance

15:25:09 [Ralph]

... I disagree with this comment

15:25:15 [Ralph]

... we have 3 subsections of our conformance requirements

15:25:28 [Ralph]

... 4.1 talks about _document_ conformance and is about markup

15:25:35 [Ralph]

... 4.2 talks about user agent conformance

15:25:41 [Ralph]

... 4.3 talks about processor conformance

15:25:49 [Ralph]

... these are all necessary and are all fine as they are

15:26:16 [Steven]

q+

15:26:18 [Ralph]

... the philosophical discussion about whether it's ok to subset the triples would be a 4.4 and we don't need to have that discussion today

15:26:20 [Zakim]

ShaneM, you wanted to discuss conformance requirements

15:26:43 [Ralph]

... the sort of processor we've talked about is one that gives you _all_ the triples

15:27:50 [Ralph]

Ralph: agree with Shane's separation of those issues

15:28:10 [Ralph]

... don't engage in the philosophical debate about subsetting now

15:28:30 [Ralph]

Steven: I think Noah is thinking about optimizations

15:28:36 [Ralph]

... we don't need to say anything about this

15:28:57 [Ralph]

... if an application optimizes away something and we can't tell from the outside, it doesn't matter

15:29:13 [Ralph]

... if the application produces the same results as one that did not optimize, we don't care

15:30:08 [markbirbeck]

q+

15:30:12 [Ralph]

... "as long as the output is the same as if the application had produced the full graph, we don't care"

15:30:24 [Ralph]

Ben: we just talk about producing the graph

15:30:36 [Ralph]

Shane: technically we just talk about the _processor_

15:30:56 [Ralph]

Ben: so the _application_ is out of our scope

15:31:55 [Ralph]

Mark: Noah may not be trying to distinguish between the application layer and the processor layer

15:32:53 [Ralph]

... however, the idea of the default graph runs through both the language and the processor and I don't see a simple way to separate these quickly

15:33:54 [mhausenblas]

mhausenblas has joined #rdfa

15:34:09 [Zakim]

+Michael_Hausenblas

15:34:10 [Ralph]

... I don't think the comment is so much about a distinction between application layers and processor layers

15:35:27 [Ralph]

Ralph: so a combination of Shane's 3 points and the idea that the default graph is intertwined throughout makes us not wish to do a major document rearrangement at this time

15:38:47 [Steven]

I think in Noah's mail that he meant <prefix:html xmlns:prefix="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">"

15:39:28 [ShaneM]

New test: A strictly conforming XHTML+RDFa document is a document that requires only the facilities described as mandatory in this specification. Such a document satisfies the following criteria:

15:39:35 [ShaneM]

s/test/text/

15:41:31 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker

15:41:51 [Ralph]

Ben: I've already written the transform to produce the CR Disposition of Comments

15:42:07 [Ralph]

Shane: I've already integrated all of the changes proposed in Ralph's message

15:43:36 [Ralph]

Topic: HTML5/RDFa discussion

15:43:59 [Ralph]

Ben: background on why this discussion is taking place now rather than later

15:44:22 [Ralph]

... Creative Commons has been working on the ccRel specification for a while

15:44:39 [Ralph]

... we decided to submit it to W3C to be published as a Member Submission

15:44:55 [Ralph]

... it got a lot of attention when W3C published it

15:45:00 [Ralph]

... and it mentions RDFa

15:45:09 [Ralph]

... so that started the discussion

15:46:20 [mhausenblas]

-> http://news.oreilly.com/2008/08/html4ever-or-the-next-logical.html my 2c on the ongoing HTML5 discussion :)

15:48:21 [Ralph]

-> @@ HTML5 discussion

15:49:08 [Ralph]

s/@@/http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Aug/

15:52:09 [Ralph]

Shane: why isn't this discussion on the HTML WG list?

15:52:14 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/ HTML WG list

15:54:39 [mhausenblas]

q+ re IR

15:54:45 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:54:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html mhausenblas

15:54:59 [mhausenblas]

RRSAgent, make logs public

15:55:52 [ShaneM]

been pondering HTML4 and RDFa - some noodling here: http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

15:56:30 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah

15:57:38 [Ralph]

Manu: there's not a lot of understanding of RDF, RDF/XML, and RDFa and the differences within the HTML WG; we're building an understanding of the benefits of structured data in markup

15:59:03 [Ralph]

Michael: I saw Guus' announcement requesting PR transition

15:59:10 [Ralph]

... should I update the implementation report now?

15:59:19 [Steven]

If all design was done by paving cow paths, no one would ever build bridges

16:01:10 [Ralph]

Ralph: sure, fine to add to the Implementation Report

16:01:26 [Ralph]

... it will be useful the the Director when the PR transition decision is made (next week)

16:01:42 [Ralph]

Topic: Microformats.org using RDFa as expression language?

16:02:02 [markbirbeck]

q+

16:02:07 [Ralph]

Manu: folk are getting tired of the problem that a new microformats parser is needed every time a new microformat is created

16:02:38 [Ralph]

... the question now being considered within the microformats community is whether to reuse the RDFa attributes but not put URIs in them

16:02:45 [Ralph]

... what would we think about this?

16:02:55 [Ralph]

Mark: I like the sentiment but I take issue with the specifics

16:03:37 [Ralph]

... in a previous discussion we'd debated whether attributes ought to have different meanings in different contexts and decided they should not

16:03:57 [Ralph]

... now we have a fixed list of values recognized in CURIEs when they appear without a prefix

16:03:58 [benadida]

q+

16:04:05 [Ralph]

... it would not be too hard to make that list extensible by others

16:04:30 [Ralph]

... e.g. within this DIV, unprefixed names come from <somewhere else>

16:04:36 [ShaneM]

q+ to discuss CURIEs and microformats

16:04:41 [Ralph]

... would be a bridge between microformats and RDFa

16:04:54 [Ralph]

Ben: I second that

16:04:56 [msporny]

q+

16:05:15 [Ralph]

... microformats repurpose some HTML attributes

16:05:36 [Ralph]

... and the Accessiblity community raised issues with this; e.g. misuse of @title

16:06:01 [Ralph]

... as RDFa explicitly ignores other unprefixed values in CURIEs, that's an extensibility opportunity

16:06:11 [Ralph]

... but redefining @typeof would be a mistake

16:06:46 [Ralph]

... if the goal is to get to a single parser vs. a parser-per-microformat then our goal is to be sure that the markup always means the same thing

16:06:51 [Ralph]

... so let's work on that together

16:06:52 [msporny]

q+ abbr pattern and semantic mis-use of elements.

16:07:13 [Zakim]

ShaneM, you wanted to discuss CURIEs and microformats

16:07:38 [Ralph]

Shane: our reserved values _are_ interpreted as URIs at the end of the day

16:08:00 [Ralph]

Manu: what microformats really cares about is to be able to write @rel='title' without having to explain anything else

16:08:19 [Ralph]

... their concern is that to have to add a ':' would be difficult to explain to users

16:08:31 [Ralph]

... the underlying implementation is less of a concern; it's about the actual markup

16:09:30 [markbirbeck]

I believe the key to this is to make a really simple 'flip' in CURIEs (wish we'd thought of it before). Instead of @rel="license" being an 'unprefixed' value, we should see it as 'unsuffixed'.

16:09:35 [Ralph]

Shane: we'll need to prioritize where we put our effort next and this could be it if it gets the microformat community into the fold more quickly

16:10:03 [markbirbeck]

Then all we're concerned about is providing more and more techniques for defining prefixes.

16:10:16 [markbirbeck]

@xmlns was always seen as only one way to define a prefix.

16:10:26 [Ralph]

Manu: as long as there's someone from RDFa advising the microformat community we should be in good shape

16:11:08 [Ralph]

Ben: I appreciate Mark's foresight in pushing for RDFa to ignore unprefixed values

16:12:00 [Ralph]

[adjourned]

16:12:23 [Ralph]

Michael: regrets for next week

16:12:24 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address RDFa as unified markup for uFs.

16:12:29 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

16:12:31 [Zakim]

-Michael_Hausenblas

16:12:31 [Zakim]

-Mark

16:12:32 [Zakim]

-Steven

16:12:33 [Zakim]

-Ralph

16:12:35 [Zakim]

-Ben_Adida

16:12:35 [Zakim]

-msporny

16:12:39 [Ralph]

Ralph: I'm available next week but not the two weeks after that

16:12:44 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

16:12:45 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, ShaneM, Steven, Mark, msporny, Ben_Adida, Michael_Hausenblas

16:12:55 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please draft minutes

16:12:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

16:13:17 [Ralph]

zakim, bye

16:13:17 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rdfa

16:13:19 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-actions.rdf :

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [1]

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-09-02

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS. [2]

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-09-17

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated RDFa Primer [3]

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-15-14

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [4]

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-41-31

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah [5]

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T15-56-30

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [6]

16:13:19 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc#T16-12-24