IRC log of soap-jms on 2008-08-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:57:02 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:57:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #soap-jms
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Zakim, this will be SJMS
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ok, trackbot; I see WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:57:07 [trackbot]
Meeting: SOAP-JMS Binding Working Group Teleconference
15:57:07 [trackbot]
Date: 26 August 2008
15:57:57 [Zakim]
WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM has now started
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+ +1.919.742.aaaa
15:59:11 [eric]
eric has joined #soap-jms
15:59:36 [Phil]
Phil has joined #soap-jms
16:00:12 [Zakim]
16:00:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.918.aabb
16:00:27 [eric]
Zakim, TIBCO is eric
16:00:27 [Zakim]
+eric; got it
16:00:35 [Phil]
Zakim, aabb is Phil
16:00:35 [Zakim]
+Phil; got it
16:00:35 [eric]
Zakim, who is here
16:00:36 [Zakim]
eric, you need to end that query with '?'
16:00:39 [eric]
Zakim, who is here?
16:00:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see alewis, eric, Phil
16:00:40 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Phil, eric, Zakim, RRSAgent, alewis, trackbot, Yves
16:00:45 [Derek]
Derek has joined #soap-jms
16:01:13 [peaston]
peaston has joined #soap-jms
16:01:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.708.246.aacc
16:01:37 [eric]
Zakim, aacc is Derek
16:01:38 [Zakim]
+Derek; got it
16:01:46 [eric]
Zakim, who is here?
16:01:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see alewis, eric, Phil, Derek
16:01:52 [Zakim]
16:01:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see peaston, Derek, Phil, eric, Zakim, RRSAgent, alewis, trackbot, Yves
16:02:21 [eric]
Zakim, Peter_Easton is peaston
16:02:21 [Zakim]
+peaston; got it
16:02:24 [Zakim]
16:02:29 [eric]
Zakim, who is here?
16:02:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see alewis, eric, Phil, Derek
16:02:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see peaston, Derek, Phil, eric, Zakim, RRSAgent, alewis, trackbot, Yves
16:02:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.956.aadd
16:02:40 [Zakim]
16:02:49 [peaston]
redialling now
16:03:12 [Zakim]
16:03:31 [eric]
Zakim, who is here?
16:03:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see alewis, eric, Phil, Derek, Bhakti, Yves, peaston
16:03:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see peaston, Derek, Phil, eric, Zakim, RRSAgent, alewis, trackbot, Yves
16:03:43 [bhakti]
bhakti has joined #soap-jms
16:04:17 [eric]
16:04:56 [eric]
Chair: eric
16:06:12 [eric]
scribe: alewis
16:06:13 [Phil]
Yay Amy :)
16:06:36 [alewis]
Topic: outstanding actions
16:07:29 [alewis]
eric; action 19 is still open, awaiting Roland or Mark
16:07:43 [alewis]
eric: action 21 completed; eric responded to email
16:08:28 [alewis]
eric: action 22: derek has just sent an email to the list
16:08:42 [alewis]
eric: action 23 still open, awaiting mark
16:09:36 [alewis]
phil: information sent to the mailing list on action 24. still in progress on structure of test cases, modeled on ws-addressing test cases.
16:10:07 [alewis]
phil: need some input from others on issues which he has raised (see emails on the list)
16:11:22 [alewis]
phil: have defined basic structure, and format of messages. other things (message exchange patterns, etc.) are referred to from the test case, not yet defined in phil's proposal.
16:11:46 [alewis]
eric: is this action complete?
16:12:16 [alewis]
phil: yes, substantially complete, if others are in agreement; remainder can make a separate action.
16:13:10 [alewis]
RESOLVED: action 24 closed by phil's proposals sent to the mailing list
16:14:02 [alewis]
eric: action 25 still open, on phil (wording changes that may be needed for support of TextMessage)
16:14:35 [alewis]
phil: can have proposal by next week. asks if discussion can be added to this week's agenda.
16:14:41 [alewis]
eric: agree, if there is time.
16:15:04 [alewis]
Topic: Phil's test case message examples
16:15:27 [alewis]
phil: look at testcases.xml in testcases directory (zip file attached to message sent to list)
16:15:41 [eric]
Link to test cases ZIP:
16:16:48 [alewis]
phil: disclaimer: not expert in xslt, basing this on ws-addressing; main file is testcases.xml; can trace the structure from there.
16:17:07 [alewis]
phil: each test case in its own file, which then points at messages and features and such.
16:18:03 [alewis]
phil: run this through xslt transform, produces html documents with linkages that point at the extensions (particularly with reference to extensions/features defined in soap/jms specification).
16:20:00 [alewis]
phil: then message exhanges appear. ws-addressing has nice pictorial representation, which could also be developed; the message exchange element points at the mep definition document.
16:20:25 [alewis]
phil: each message exchange points at the messages, which are defined in separate xml files.
16:20:41 [alewis]
phil: each file is simply a soap/jms message.
16:21:02 [alewis]
phil: then each message element contains assertions specifying the state of various things.
16:21:15 [alewis]
eric: this is on receipt?
16:22:38 [alewis]
phil: this can't necessarily be used to drive a compliance tester, but at least this allows someone to look at things at an arbitrary point and compare it to the stuff defined in the test case.
16:22:56 [alewis]
eric: how compare message id equivalence?
16:23:17 [alewis]
phil: for this one, since it's one way, message id and correlation id are probably not relevant
16:23:35 [alewis]
eric: we wouldn't define this, since the engine generates the message id, would we?
16:24:41 [alewis]
phil: switch to two-way exchange. first message a->b, request. we *do* care what message id is. not necessarily that it's a specific value, but the correlation id in the reply message *must* be equivalent to message id of request message.
16:25:17 [alewis]
eric: we might need some way to specify some other parameters. for instance, message id.
16:25:26 [alewis]
16:25:46 [alewis]
eric: things like delivery mode, expiration, etc. may be controlled
16:26:01 [alewis]
phil: yes, that's why those aren't in brackets
16:26:25 [alewis]
eric: should we be able to specify the uri used for this message? to say delivery mode is specific value.
16:26:33 [alewis]
phil: oops. forgot to include endpoint url.
16:27:07 [alewis]
phil: need to specify extra element to indicate which endpoint url was used to send the message.
16:27:26 [alewis]
eric: need to test iri.
16:28:08 [alewis]
phil: request iri used in runtime, which makes for a property value in jms.
16:29:46 [alewis]
eric: properties may be unspecified: want to check default. properties may be unspecified: undefined. properties may be specified: check value. might be specified in various places.
16:30:08 [alewis]
phil: some test cases won't include wsdl (we don't require it); we may have properties set from various places.
16:30:15 [alewis]
eric: need link to those?
16:30:29 [alewis]
phil: possibly yes, how describe properties in wsdl? or in iri?
16:31:27 [Zakim]
16:32:27 [eric]
q- alewis
16:33:48 [alewis]
amy: there are other properties: properties that must be defined, but we don't define what the specific values are, such as for jndi.
16:34:10 [alewis]
phil: thought of using relative values.
16:34:31 [alewis]
amy: not enough: ought to have a place to put a substitution/variable there.
16:35:10 [alewis]
phil: so, for instance, in the jndi specification, instead of relative or "myuri" value, use a syntax that names a variable.
16:35:34 [alewis]
amy, eric: yes. this lets us test equivalence between variables, too.
16:36:22 [alewis]
phil: do we need a brief description of the variables in the test case?
16:36:34 [alewis]
amy: sure, sounds like doc element, possibly with linkages.
16:36:53 [alewis]
eric: phil, willing to incorporate some of the changes proposed in this discussion?
16:36:56 [alewis]
phil: sure.
16:37:31 [alewis]
eric: okay, let's complete the discussion, then assign some actions (to phil or to others).
16:38:22 [alewis]
phil: in two-way request, property values in brackets are placeholders. may not be able to define the values.
16:39:10 [alewis]
amy: can we use the variable syntax for this?
16:39:31 [alewis]
phil: was thinking that syntax would be used for vendors for value that they set.
16:39:45 [alewis]
amy: sure, but can also be used for things set by the engine, no?
16:40:15 [alewis]
phil: okay, but we need to make it clear in the test case whether this is something that the application sets, or something that will be set by the engine, to avoid confusion.
16:40:55 [alewis]
phil: further we get from ws-addressing, less confident that can produce the html results, not expert in xslt.
16:41:11 [alewis]
amy, eric: we have xslt expertise on the committee.
16:41:22 [alewis]
eric: see numbers on the elements, what are they?
16:41:44 [alewis]
phil: those correspond to assertions in the soap-jms specification.
16:43:14 [alewis]
phil: so there will be a features.xml file that defines the feature number, and it will produce html which will produce a brief description and then link directly into specification.
16:43:40 [alewis]
eric: need to use the full id, not just the numbers, so that we can auto-generate links.
16:44:11 [alewis]
eric: want to avoid separate features.xml file, if we can link directly into the spec.
16:44:16 [alewis]
phil: other questions?
16:44:58 [alewis]
phil: testcases.xsl does the transformation from testcases.xml to html describing the test case.
16:45:35 [alewis]
phil: documents/messages/soap-1.1, there's an example of a soap envelope, in the file there.
16:45:59 [alewis]
phil: also a two-way request/response example.
16:46:50 [alewis]
ACTION: Phil to incorporate changes brought up in this discussion, due next week
16:46:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-26 - Incorporate changes brought up in this discussion, due next week [on Phil Adams - due 2008-09-02].
16:47:11 [alewis]
phil: may need help from the xslt experts, however.
16:48:54 [alewis]
ACTION: eric to examine/update xslt, once test cases stabilizes, due in two weeks.
16:48:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-27 - Examine/update xslt, once test cases stabilizes, due in two weeks. [on Eric Johnson - due 2008-09-02].
16:50:14 [alewis]
ACTION: Roland to work on adding test case documents and scripts to version control, due 2008-09-16
16:50:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-28 - Work on adding test case documents and scripts to version control, due 2008-09-16 [on Roland Merrick - due 2008-09-02].
16:50:54 [alewis]
eric: will chair next week, call for objections?
16:50:56 [alewis]
no objections.
16:51:53 [alewis]
eric: was comment on mailing list, after phil put out first draft, mentioning ws-addressing, encouraging doing more with ws-addressing.
16:52:17 [alewis]
phil: just clarified that we're using their example of how to test, not using ws-addressing.
16:53:05 [alewis]
eric, phil: it's all public stuff, which means we're going to have people not in the working group making comments on things before they're fully baked. grin and bear it.
16:56:05 [alewis]
eric: only five minutes, which is not really enough for derek's mail or the wording changes to permit support of textmessage.
16:56:18 [Zakim]
16:56:19 [Zakim]
16:56:21 [Zakim]
16:56:21 [alewis]
call for further issues. none raised.
16:56:23 [Zakim]
16:56:27 [alewis]
meeting ends.
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16:56:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate alewis
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WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM has ended
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Attendees were +1.919.742.aaaa, alewis, +1.512.918.aabb, eric, Phil, +1.708.246.aacc, Derek, peaston, +1.408.956.aadd, Yves, Bhakti
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I see 3 open action items saved in :
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ACTION: Phil to incorporate changes brought up in this discussion, due next week [1]
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recorded in
16:58:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: eric to examine/update xslt, once test cases stabilizes, due in two weeks. [2]
16:58:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:58:45 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Roland to work on adding test case documents and scripts to version control, due 2008-09-16 [3]
16:58:45 [RRSAgent]
recorded in