IRC log of backplane on 2008-08-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:39:16 [RRSAgent]
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14:39:16 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-backplane-irc
14:39:20 [Zakim]
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14:39:23 [Charlie]
zakim, this will be rwab
14:39:23 [Zakim]
ok, Charlie; I see INC_RWAB()11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
14:39:28 [Charlie]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:39:34 [oedipus]
danbri and i had thought of it as a proof-of-concept for ARIA before CR, but it is more a backplane project than a client-side project
14:40:13 [oedipus]
http://groups.google.com/group/opensocial
14:40:20 [Charlie]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0022.html
14:40:25 [Charlie]
Chair: Charlie Wiecha
14:40:45 [Charlie]
Regrets: Kevin, Jack
14:42:59 [oedipus]
[fyi] new public beta of best-selling (market dominant) windows-based commercial screen reader will support ARIA live regions - http://freedomscientific.com/downloads/jaws/JAWS-public-beta.asp
14:43:14 [oedipus]
[fyi] just announced/released this week
14:46:19 [oedipus]
[fyi] excellent ARIA live regions demo/proof-of-concept: "Making Twitter Tweet" http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=65
14:46:41 [Charlie]
nice, that should be helpful for us
14:47:03 [oedipus]
it is very impressive what the paciello group did with twitter, which is otherwise inaccessible
14:47:22 [Charlie]
so my basic question for the meeting today is what could we do with a really focused effort (i.e. not a lot of time available) to show something interesting in a simple form like the loan one...
14:47:36 [Charlie]
it would be great to reuse whatever the YUI framework already has for ARIA enablement
14:48:00 [Charlie]
over the longer term we probably want to bake this in natively into the ubiquity framework but maybe can avoid this in the next month to get a demo working by reusing YUI support
14:48:01 [oedipus]
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/menuwaiaria.html
14:48:32 [oedipus]
i can get victor tsaran, head of accessibility (a11y) at yahoo, to communicate with us -- i'm sure he'd be interested
14:48:44 [Charlie]
ok, let's discuss during the call
14:49:44 [oedipus]
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/event/
14:50:42 [oedipus]
[fyi] haven't yet installed the new public beta of JAWS 10, but if i can get it to work reliably, i may be able to give the XG a better "picture" of what a difference ARIA makes
14:51:33 [Charlie]
k
14:51:39 [oedipus]
[fyi] i also use NVDA (open source windows screen reader) which has live region support and, on linux, Orca (http://live.gnome.org/Orca) which also has begun implementing live regions
14:52:27 [oedipus]
[fyi] http://www.nvda-project.org/
14:52:51 [Charlie]
mac
14:53:06 [Charlie]
but most of our development is still under windows
14:53:11 [Charlie]
(i use parallels a lot)
14:53:16 [oedipus]
lucky man - you have access to VoiceOver which is also enabling ARIA live regions
14:53:33 [oedipus]
i'm split between a linux box and a bunch of semi-functional windows boxes
14:53:48 [Charlie]
i've not yet taken the linux plunge
14:54:05 [oedipus]
only reason i haven't gone totally linux is so as to keep in touch with the realities of the "average user"
14:54:58 [Zakim]
INC_RWAB()11:00AM has now started
14:55:05 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
14:55:05 [oedipus]
when it comes to assistive technology, one is at the mercy of what the pertinent agency knows or -- worse -- at the mercy of an "exclusive vendor" who only demonstrate a very small sample of what is available
14:55:10 [Charlie]
zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
14:55:10 [Zakim]
+Charlie; got it
14:55:50 [oedipus]
http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html#universalaccess
14:56:19 [Charlie]
thanks for the link...will check it out
14:56:32 [oedipus]
no problem - will dial-in momentarily
14:58:39 [Steven]
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14:58:56 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
15:00:49 [JohnBoyer]
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15:00:54 [Charlie]
Scribe: Rahul
15:00:59 [Charlie]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0022.html
15:01:16 [Steven]
zakim, code?
15:01:30 [Steven]
zakim is slow today
15:01:31 [rahul]
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15:01:32 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7922 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
15:01:40 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:01:50 [Charlie]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0022.html
15:01:56 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:01:58 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:02:10 [Zakim]
+John_Boyer
15:02:44 [oedipus]
list of links from JAWS9 for http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/loan-form/_samples/Loan/loan-lowercase.html reported as "0 button" which, when chosen populated the form fields
15:03:11 [Charlie]
smile
15:03:18 [JohnBoyer]
:-)
15:03:47 [thomas]
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15:04:10 [oedipus]
[fyi] there is work on a date-picker widget in PF for an ARIA example that could be ported to the loan form's calendar picker
15:05:02 [rahul]
Topic: Presence at Tech Plenary
15:05:20 [rahul]
Steven: strong call for more demonstrations
15:05:46 [rahul]
Charlie: these will be longer than a lightening talk?
15:06:01 [rahul]
Steven: lots of space for presentations and discussions, so yes
15:06:43 [rahul]
Steven: CfP will go out this week, proposals within 2-3 weeks
15:07:50 [rahul]
Resolution: we will get a proposal or two in
15:08:01 [rahul]
Topic: Cross-pollination with other WGs
15:08:44 [rahul]
Charlie: spoke to Al, Dave (?)
15:08:49 [Zakim]
-Charlie
15:09:01 [Charlie]
will redial
15:09:02 [Charlie]
sorry
15:09:07 [rahul]
Charlie: plan to meet with MMI Mon/Tue, spoke to Debbie Dahl
15:09:12 [Charlie]
got dropped
15:09:19 [rahul]
Charlie: can also meet with Voice later in the week if needed
15:09:24 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:09:30 [Charlie]
zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
15:09:34 [Zakim]
+Charlie; got it
15:10:26 [oedipus]
[fyi] johnB, http://esw.w3.org/topic/GregoryRosmaita/FormsFeedback2008-07">http://esw.w3.org/topic/GregoryRosmaita/FormsFeedback2008-07 (for HTML5 is being ported to the PF's HTML5 Issues & Requirements - http://esw.w3.org/topic/GregoryRosmaita/FormsFeedback2008-07
15:10:39 [rahul]
Charlie: might want to sync up with the Ubiquitous web WG (Dave R.)
15:10:56 [oedipus]
[fyi] http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech
15:12:18 [Zakim]
-Steven
15:13:03 [rahul]
Charlie: two webapps groups, mark-up vs. API level (?) -- might set up a meeting with them
15:13:23 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:13:23 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:13:25 [Zakim]
+Steven
15:13:34 [Steven]
zakim, mute me
15:13:34 [Zakim]
Steven should now be muted
15:13:54 [rahul]
JohnB: might want to evangelize the Ubiquity work to these groups -- connection to backplane and implementation avenue for standards
15:14:02 [rahul]
Topic: ARIA enablement
15:14:24 [Charlie]
http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/branches/loan-form/_samples/Loan/loan-lowercase.html
15:14:32 [rahul]
Charlie: we can look at the loan form Ubiquity example as a starting point
15:15:11 [rahul]
oedipus: makes sense, we are currently working on a datepicker widget, so I'd be interested in looking at the calendar from the ARIA enablement PoV
15:15:29 [rahul]
Charlie: lets see if we can converge on the scenario we'd like to show and the effort needed to implement that
15:15:49 [rahul]
Charlie: lets stick to the YUI case (since more of that functionality is available in Ubiquity)
15:18:02 [rahul]
Charlie: we have this notion of abstract control (where notions of relevance, data validity are expressed) -- which further can become an xf:input, xf:select1 etc., maybe we can look at ARIA enabling at this abstract level?
15:18:36 [rahul]
oedipus: from the point of assistive technology, I can think of the datepicker as a tree-grid for ARIA enablement
15:19:47 [rahul]
oedipus: datepicker ARIA enablement seems like a good thing to target -- its generally hard to translate these kinds of forms to various input / output devices
15:20:05 [rahul]
Charlie: is there a calendar widget in YUI that is independently being ARIA-enabled?
15:20:33 [rahul]
oedipus: not sure if it exists right now (can follow up with Victor)
15:22:50 [rahul]
Charlie: if it doesn't exist, we may be able to add that by making necessary changes on the Ubiquity side (?)
15:23:25 [rahul]
oedipus: entails adding scribe-by owned-by etc. ARIA properties to various elements of the datepicker
15:24:05 [rahul]
Charlie: not quite clear how we've made the point that the Ubiquity framework is ARIA-enabled
15:24:52 [rahul]
oedipus: this is a good starting point, and a way to identify the shortcomings and advantages for integrating ARIA mark-up
15:27:29 [rahul]
oedipus: was able to run loan form on Grand Paradiso nightly
15:27:49 [rahul]
oedipus: datepicker identified as button
15:29:02 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:29:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-backplane-minutes.html Steven
15:29:34 [Steven]
Meeting: Weekly Backplane XG Teleconference
15:29:55 [rahul]
rahul: here is a full calendar URL (slow loading off SVN): http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/_samples/yui-custom-controls/input-calendar.html
15:29:59 [Charlie]
thanks steven!
15:30:14 [rahul]
rahul: actually, theres 3 calendars on that sample page!
15:31:16 [rahul]
Charlie: whats the live region for the datepicker?
15:31:38 [rahul]
oedipus: the entire calendar, so when it pops up it would announce what month and date its showing
15:32:21 [rahul]
oedipus: also would need to set up politeness / rudeness levels of various alerts
15:32:47 [rahul]
oedipus: in theory, the widget should tell you what is available -- and support step-by-step navigation
15:33:15 [rahul]
oedipus: there is a special mode in the screen reader called form mode -- there is a key overlay on the keyboard for the form mode
15:33:46 [rahul]
oedipus: when a form exists in a table, the contextual information is hard to get (in a typical flat form, mitigated by XForms)
15:34:08 [rahul]
oedipus: ARIA is trying to break things down in easily digestable chunks
15:34:55 [rahul]
Charlie: interesting to see how everything gets expressed in the datepicker mark-up
15:35:54 [rahul]
Charlie: can work with trunk code and a local version of the calendar source
15:36:54 [rahul]
Charlie: narrowing down to calendar widget is an interesting enough piece of work (and may provide some guidance for moving ahead)
15:37:50 [rahul]
Charlie: this exercise will help identify what ARIA bits we can harvest and drive down deeper into the Ubiquity library infrastructure
15:38:37 [rahul]
Resolution: oedipus to look at ARIA enabling the datepicker from Ubiquity trunk
15:38:59 [rahul]
Charlie: adjourn?
15:39:35 [Zakim]
-Steven
15:39:37 [Zakim]
-John_Boyer
15:39:39 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
15:39:39 [Zakim]
INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended
15:39:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita, Steven, John_Boyer
15:39:44 [rahul]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:39:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-backplane-minutes.html rahul
15:42:59 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
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15:46:27 [Charlie]
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