IRC log of svg on 2008-08-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:25:53 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #svg
07:25:53 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc
07:25:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:25:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
07:25:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
07:25:57 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
07:25:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
07:25:58 [trackbot]
Date: 22 August 2008
07:26:05 [heycam]
Zakim, remind me in 8 hours that i shouldn't work too hard
07:26:05 [Zakim]
ok, heycam
07:26:19 [heycam]
Meeting: SVG Nuremberg F2F Day 2
07:26:28 [heycam]
Present: Doug, Cameron, Anthony, Erik
07:31:01 [heycam]
ISSUE-2032?
07:31:01 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2032 -- SVGT 1.2; 16.2.6 Paced animation and complex types -- RAISED
07:31:01 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2032
07:31:02 [shepazu]
scribenick: shepazu
07:31:43 [shepazu]
Topic: ISSUE-2032 (Paced animation and complex types)
07:32:13 [anthony]
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07:32:28 [shepazu]
ED: let's look at the issues one by one
07:32:48 [shepazu]
ED: "unnecessary assertion"
07:34:16 [shepazu]
CM: seems a little nitpicky
07:34:32 [shepazu]
ED: yes, not immediately neccessary to change
07:35:38 [shepazu]
ED: let's move all the points we don't change now to Core for later... this is stuff we need to address at some point
07:35:48 [shepazu]
ED: "Inconsistencies"
07:38:02 [shepazu]
http://schepers.cc/w3c/svg/animationDiff/ani-changes.html
07:38:19 [shepazu]
ED: is this still the same in the current draft? it seems it is
07:40:34 [shepazu]
CM: he has changed it to disallow paced animation of path, data, or list values
07:40:51 [shepazu]
ED: at least scalars or vectors or a mixture
07:41:12 [shepazu]
DS: must this be addressed now?
07:41:27 [shepazu]
ED: it's quite a big change
07:41:40 [shepazu]
DS: we're probably going to revamp animation a bit later anyway
07:42:03 [shepazu]
CM: I agree that the definitions are a bit arbitrary... what does 1.1 say
07:43:19 [shepazu]
ED: it's not in 1.1
07:43:45 [shepazu]
CM: so, he's hoping to get it right the first time, since this was added for clarification
07:43:55 [shepazu]
... but it's already implemented as specced
07:44:38 [shepazu]
DS: could we change in in the next version without breaking compatibility?
07:44:46 [shepazu]
ED: not sure
07:45:35 [shepazu]
DS: we should have discussed this a long time ago
07:49:50 [shepazu]
ED: it is a little inconsistent, but it's good to have it defined
07:51:58 [shepazu]
CM: the spec has the easiest definition that makes a small amount of sense, and I don't think there's much to be gained by removing it at this point
07:55:44 [shepazu]
"Wrong notation of value type"
07:56:01 [shepazu]
ED: I think he's correct with this, and we could make this change easily
07:56:23 [shepazu]
CM: I could fix this up
07:57:13 [shepazu]
Resolution: we will make sure all the value types to have to the the type definitions, and will fix the formatting of the data
07:57:47 [shepazu]
Action: heycam to fix the notation of value types for paced animation
07:57:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2149 - Fix the notation of value types for paced animation [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
07:58:40 [shepazu]
ED: "Obscure definition"
07:59:01 [shepazu]
CM: he's right about this one too
07:59:51 [shepazu]
ED: all of the control points --all of the values of the path syntax-- should be used
08:00:17 [shepazu]
CM: bit weird... what about flags for arcs
08:00:32 [shepazu]
ED: Tiny doesn't have arcs
08:02:10 [shepazu]
ED: so, what should we replace point with?
08:05:01 [shepazu]
CM: we need to treat coordinate values as pairs, not as individual values... the formula only includes control points, I think
08:05:28 [shepazu]
.... wait, it looks like we already made a change
08:05:52 [shepazu]
AG: I think Andreas made that change
08:07:56 [heycam]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.2T/master/animate.html.diff?r1=1.84&r2=1.85&f=h
08:08:00 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/actions/1337
08:09:17 [heycam]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2006Jun/0089.html
08:10:12 [shepazu]
ED: "Obviously absurd formula"
08:17:24 [shepazu]
"Trying to add an angle to a length is similar as to add one second to one kg minced meat"
08:17:33 [shepazu]
(awesome line)
08:18:30 [shepazu]
CM: I'd be happy to change that to only look at the angle and not at the origin of the rotation
08:19:32 [shepazu]
ED: what if you have 2 rotate transforms that have different center of rotation, and you want to do paced?
08:25:22 [shepazu]
CM: if we disregard the centerpoint, and make the distance based only on the difference of angle....
08:26:07 [shepazu]
... if you have animation where the centerpoints are different, but the angles are the same, then that segment of the animation will take 0s
08:26:42 [shepazu]
... and translation should be applied separately
08:28:58 [ed]
so remove "sqrt((v_a1 [0] - v_b1 [0])^2 + (v_a1 [1] - v_b1 [1])^2))) / 2" from the rotate
08:29:32 [shepazu]
Resolution: stop adding seconds to minced meat
08:29:34 [shepazu]
Action: heycam to stop adding seconds to minced meat
08:29:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2150 - Stop adding seconds to minced meat [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
08:31:09 [shepazu]
Chair: "Surprising formula for transform scale"
08:36:24 [shepazu]
ED: the rationale for the formula is not explained, so the context is missing for people trying to use it
08:36:42 [shepazu]
... on the other hand, that is something we could add later
08:36:55 [shepazu]
CM: unless we discover it makes no sense :)
08:40:48 [shepazu]
CM: looking at Batik... I just add the difference between the 2 dimensions, which is less sensible
08:41:15 [shepazu]
CM: Euclidian does make some sense
08:45:24 [shepazu]
Resolution: we will use Euclidian distance formulae for type scale
08:45:53 [shepazu]
Action: heycam to change paced animation of scale to use Euclidian distance formulae
08:45:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2151 - Change paced animation of scale to use Euclidian distance formulae [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
08:46:31 [shepazu]
Chair: "Interpretation of some given formulas missing"
08:46:41 [shepazu]
ED: let's defer this until later
08:47:17 [shepazu]
Chaiir: ED
08:47:22 [shepazu]
Chair: ED
08:47:52 [shepazu]
ED: "The section is incomplete"
08:49:32 [shepazu]
ED: list of coordinates is the same as list of length
08:49:34 [shepazu]
... list of number should also be the same
08:50:04 [shepazu]
ED: coodinate+ might be different
08:54:34 [shepazu]
CM: "coordinate+" should be "list of coordinate", and "number+" should be "list of number"
09:00:21 [shepazu]
DS: I'm a little concerned about changing this
09:01:20 [shepazu]
... coordinate+ is a special case of the list, with at least one value
09:02:59 [shepazu]
Resolution: we will change "coordinate+" to "list of coordinate", and "number+" to "list of number" for consistency, and constrain them in the element definition to have at least one value
09:03:20 [shepazu]
Action: heycam to change "coordinate+" to "list of coordinate", and "number+" to "list of number" for consistency
09:03:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2152 - Change \"coordinate+\" to \"list of coordinate\", and \"number+\" to \"list of number\" for consistency [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
09:04:49 [shepazu]
Resolution: we will add change "list of coordinate" and "list of number" to the paced animation table, with the same distance formula as "list of length"
09:05:09 [shepazu]
s/add change/add/
09:06:21 [shepazu]
Action: heycam to add "list of coordinate" and "list of number" to the paced animation table, with the same distance formula as "list of length"
09:06:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2153 - Add \"list of coordinate\" and \"list of number\" to the paced animation table, with the same distance formula as \"list of length\" [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
09:10:43 [shepazu]
Action: fattony to split unresolved points of ISSUE-268 / ISSUE-2032 into individual issues for Core
09:10:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2154 - Split unresolved points of ISSUE-268 / ISSUE-2032 into individual issues for Core [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-08-29].
09:12:54 [heycam]
trackbot, close ACTION-2152
09:12:54 [trackbot]
ACTION-2152 Change "coordinate+" to "list of coordinate", and "number+" to "list of number" for consistency closed
09:46:00 [ed]
ed has joined #svg
09:47:19 [ed]
scribe: Erik
09:47:26 [ed]
scribeNick: ed
09:47:33 [ed]
Topic: DOM 3 Events
09:48:07 [ed]
DS: D3E is not going to be a REC in december
09:48:41 [ed]
...don't want to rush the D3E spec out
09:50:02 [ed]
...we're going to have to remove the svgt12 dependency somehow
09:50:12 [ed]
...most of the things we need are in dom 2 events
09:50:25 [ed]
...we could change most of the references
09:51:29 [ed]
...for those places where we depend on D3E we can put the additions in the uDOM or as an appendix
09:51:39 [ed]
...probably better as an appendix
09:52:07 [ed]
CM: what parts of D3E do we depend on?
09:52:28 [ed]
ED: no, svgt12 events are in no namespace
09:52:40 [ed]
DS: it's mostly the keyboard stuff
09:53:06 [ed]
...and that is implemented in SVG UA:s is from the D3E snapshot from a couple of years ago
09:53:22 [ed]
...there's talk about changing D3E
09:53:55 [ed]
...for the purpose of svgt12 it's probably better if we use that snapshot
09:54:46 [ed]
DS: there are three different ways to identify a key
09:55:14 [ed]
...the named key (unicode name), the unicode value (the codepoint), and the actual character itself (for keys that have characters)
09:55:45 [ed]
...the control key is an example that has to be a named key because there's no unicode value for it
09:56:30 [ed]
CM: as long as these new things are added to this old keyidentifier and the model doesn't change much, then I think putting in what was in d3e into tiny12 is a workable solution
09:57:11 [ed]
DS: is the capital 'Q' returned for the 'q' key
09:57:19 [ed]
...and what is the value of the key
09:58:02 [ed]
...it's not predictable because of keyboard mapping between modified and unmodified key values
09:58:12 [ed]
...we need to figure out how that affects keyidentifier
09:58:28 [ed]
CM: it is likely to be different from that 2year old draft
09:59:26 [ed]
DS: there could be an additional attribute on keyevent, keyvalue that is the actual mapped value for that key given its modifier state
10:00:20 [ed]
CM: good to expose this in this new keyevent
10:00:30 [ed]
...the old draft doesn't expose this
10:08:35 [ed]
DS: I think we're going to have to use the unicode values, and D3E will be more comprehensive
10:09:41 [ed]
...the softkeys will be in an appendix but non-normative
10:17:32 [ed]
RESOLUTION: to add a snapshot of keyidentifiers and KeyboardEvents from D3E to SVGT12
10:17:53 [ed]
...and TextInputEvent
10:19:54 [ed]
CM: there's also CustomEvent, do we care about that?
10:20:01 [ed]
DS: no
10:20:25 [ed]
CM: there's nothing using them explicitly in svgt12
10:20:52 [ed]
...there's MutationNameEvent
10:21:03 [ed]
...not using that either
10:21:07 [ed]
...wheelEvent
10:21:18 [ed]
DS: we have that, but we're aligning
10:22:33 [ed]
CM: all of the namespace-aware methods addEventListenerNS, removeEventListenerNS . The initEventNS method isn't used in uDOM.
10:23:31 [ed]
DS: all examples in the svgt12 spec should be corrected to not use namespaced events
10:24:21 [ed]
ACTION: DS to add the keyboard events from DOM 3 Events to an SVGT12 appendix
10:24:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2155 - Add the keyboard events from DOM 3 Events to an SVGT12 appendix [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-08-29].
10:26:50 [ed]
CM: there's defaultPrevented in uDOM
10:27:03 [ed]
...but stopImmidiatePropagation isn't in uDOM
10:30:05 [ed]
DS: maybe we can mark defaultPrevented as "at risk"
10:30:55 [ed]
CM: there are a couple of methods that throw more exceptions than in DOM 2 Events
10:31:45 [heycam]
EventTarget.dispatchEvent() was changed to throw a new exception (DISPATCH_REQUEST_ERR, which is also a new constant on EventException)
10:32:15 [ed]
...EventTarget.dispatchEvent isn't in uDOM
10:32:29 [ed]
...and we don't have the EventException interface either
10:33:09 [ed]
...canDispatch on DocumentEvent (not in uDOM)
10:35:31 [ed]
...getModifierState on MouseEvent and KeyboardEvent (not in uDOM explicitly but we're going to add that method explicitly)
10:37:30 [ed]
...we're not adding hasFeature
10:38:28 [ed]
...focus, blur, dblclick were added to D3E but are not included in SVGT12
10:49:26 [ed]
ACTION: Cameron to fix transition from DOM 3 Events to DOM 2 Events and uDOM, and to fix testsuite
10:49:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2156 - Fix transition from DOM 3 Events to DOM 2 Events and uDOM, and to fix testsuite [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
10:53:45 [anthony]
trackbot, close ACTION-2154
10:53:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-2154 Split unresolved points of ISSUE-268 / ISSUE-2032 into individual issues for Core closed
12:03:06 [ed]
ed has joined #svg
12:05:04 [ed]
scribe: erik
12:05:08 [ed]
scribeNick: ed
12:05:35 [ed]
Topic: camerons issues
12:05:38 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080808065205.GD4643@arc.mcc.id.au
12:07:05 [ed]
RESOLUTION: take out <xslt-qname> from the SVGT12 RNG and the types chapter
12:07:14 [ed]
RATIONALE: it's not used anywhere
12:07:26 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080809063244.GA22724@arc.mcc.id.au
12:07:57 [ed]
CM: I noticed that references uses sometimes the latest, sometimes the dated version
12:08:59 [ed]
DS: we shouldn't use the latest version
12:10:34 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080810103228.GB8910@arc.mcc.id.au
12:10:55 [ed]
CM: various places that should use 'lacuna value', but i wasn't sure
12:12:08 [ed]
DS: looks like it should say lacuna value
12:12:24 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080811062030.GG18982@arc.mcc.id.au
12:15:51 [ed]
CM: regardless of type of element the first element whose conditions evaluate to true will be the chosen one
12:15:55 [ed]
...in a switch
12:17:41 [ed]
ED: so it shouldn't be talking about rendering elements, but processing of elements
12:26:40 [ed]
...style changes agreed upon, but it's low priority
12:26:50 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080811065441.GJ18982@arc.mcc.id.au
12:27:53 [ed]
ED: it seems strange, there could be use-cases for having test-attributes on tbreak
12:29:08 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080811070750.GK18982@arc.mcc.id.au
12:30:17 [ed]
DS: agree that it shouldn't run or remove itself
12:30:23 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080812123435.GA14080@arc.mcc.id.au
12:32:18 [ed]
DS: yes, change the should to a must there
12:34:54 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080818004208.GB18063@arc.mcc.id.au
12:37:59 [ed]
DS: I think CTM shouldn't include user transforms
12:38:12 [ed]
CM: there should be two terms, screen CTM and CTM
12:39:18 [ed]
...I'll write some tests for it and come back with a proposal
12:39:26 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20080808063636.GA26296@arc.mcc.id.au
12:40:12 [ed]
DS: suggest mailing CL about this
12:40:54 [heycam]
http://www.w3.org/mid/48A3AE10.3040407@w3.org
12:43:46 [ed]
RESOLUTION: we will the ElementTraversal stuff in SVGT12 "at risk" and reference the DOM 3 ElementTraversal spec instead
12:43:59 [ed]
s/will/will mark/
12:44:53 [ed]
ACTION: Cameron to do all of the actions discussed above
12:44:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2157 - Do all of the actions discussed above [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
12:48:24 [ed]
Topic: Action triage
12:48:30 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/2
12:50:01 [aemmons]
aemmons has joined #svg
12:52:47 [aemmons]
sure
12:58:02 [anthony]
anthony has joined #svg
13:20:17 [ed]
DS: the last day of the SVG testfest in Ottawa (sept 29-oct 2) will be dedicated to last call comments
13:22:44 [anthony]
scribe: anthony
13:22:52 [anthony]
ScribeNick: anthony
13:24:28 [anthony]
ED: 29 Actions left
13:24:39 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2011
13:24:44 [anthony]
ED: Something we could hold off
13:25:07 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #svg
13:25:10 [anthony]
... I don't expect the JSR group to give a response in the time frame we have
13:25:33 [anthony]
CM: I don't understand what this is about
13:26:28 [anthony]
ED: The JSR Group wrote about taking out get and set attribute in uDOM
13:26:39 [anthony]
... they are not including in JSR 287
13:26:41 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008AprJun/0055.html
13:26:45 [anthony]
s/in/it/
13:26:52 [anthony]
CM: Why?
13:26:59 [anthony]
ED: Due to complexities
13:27:47 [anthony]
DS: We should just leave it as is
13:29:12 [anthony]
... it's really useful for users
13:29:21 [anthony]
ED: I'm tempted to say leave it in
13:29:27 [anthony]
... is there any reason not to
13:29:33 [anthony]
... we added because of CDF
13:29:44 [anthony]
... still makes sens in mixed context
13:30:15 [anthony]
s/sens/sense/
13:30:35 [anthony]
DS: Users are going to expect them to be there
13:31:02 [anthony]
CM: If you have to support arbitrary attributes on elements you have to store them
13:31:11 [anthony]
... if you use traits you wouldn't have to store them
13:32:52 [anthony]
DS: Perhaps we should make them a should
13:33:32 [anthony]
CM: Why did CDF add them?
13:33:40 [anthony]
ED: Wanted this to be used in HTML
13:34:40 [anthony]
CM: So for the non prefixed attribute you don't need to store the names
13:34:48 [anthony]
... because there can only be one spelling for it
13:35:08 [anthony]
... for prefixed things you need to store the prefix
13:35:38 [anthony]
ED: They are just asking us to consider dropping it
13:36:01 [anthony]
DS: We don't me make it a should?
13:36:06 [anthony]
ED: Then you can't depend on it
13:36:38 [anthony]
DS: If you intend it to work on mobile devices you should use the name space versions
13:37:11 [anthony]
ED: We spoke with CDF to have them in their spec
13:37:54 [anthony]
AG: Why don't we leave it as is, then we don't have anything to do?
13:38:26 [anthony]
DS: Because it's going to be non-conforming and they've given a valid reason
13:39:20 [anthony]
... when doing it in a mixed content environment you should expect it to be there
13:40:41 [anthony]
CM: From a CDF point of view would that be considered it being taken out
13:40:52 [anthony]
... it is a bit strange to have should things on an interface
13:43:13 [anthony]
ED: We could get a clarification
13:43:18 [anthony]
... address it for Core?
13:43:44 [anthony]
... postpone?
13:45:23 [anthony]
... I say we close the action
13:46:03 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: We will close ACTION-2011 and we will leave the set and get interface as is
13:46:16 [anthony]
trackbot, close ACTION-2011
13:46:16 [trackbot]
ACTION-2011 Write JSR 287 EG and ask for clarification regarding setAttribute/getAttribute use cases closed
13:46:51 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2014
13:46:51 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2014
13:47:14 [anthony]
ED: This is on Chris
13:47:16 [heycam]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Apr/0069.html
13:47:22 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-svg-minutes.html#item04
13:47:24 [anthony]
... is any one comfortable on font family selection rules
13:48:31 [anthony]
ED: Old wording wasn't very good
13:48:39 [anthony]
CM: Interesting the ligature one - D
13:51:51 [anthony]
... there are two things
13:51:59 [anthony]
... he wants a better fallback algorithm
13:52:18 [anthony]
ED: He's saying you can get something which the test is not testing
13:53:30 [ed]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/fonts-glyph-04-t.svg
13:58:13 [anthony]
ED: Is this something we need to change in the spec
13:58:28 [anthony]
... or is this a test that needs to be changed
13:59:25 [anthony]
DS: I'll email Chris asking about this
13:59:59 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2022
14:00:05 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2022
14:00:22 [anthony]
CM: Sounds similar to what we discussed about yesterday
14:00:28 [anthony]
DS: Different question
14:00:34 [anthony]
... and should be deferred
14:00:38 [anthony]
... change it to SVG Core
14:01:14 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2023
14:01:21 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2023
14:02:32 [anthony]
CM: Wait we decided something different yesterday
14:03:08 [anthony]
DS: So what have we decided on?
14:03:10 [anthony]
CM: That it is an error
14:03:54 [anthony]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/att-0082/20080520-svg-minutes.html#item03
14:04:17 [anthony]
CM: Perhaps the action came out of the same issue we had
14:04:19 [anthony]
ED: Could have
14:04:51 [anthony]
... was this to allow tests to be written for circular reference?
14:05:29 [anthony]
CM: The spec doesn't say where the unsupported thing happens
14:06:00 [anthony]
DS: We changed it because opacity is difficult to check how many iterations
14:06:11 [anthony]
... we changed it so it shifts the shape downwards
14:06:24 [anthony]
... the question is what is the visible sign of an error
14:06:58 [anthony]
ED: Should we revisit the resolution from yesterday?
14:08:13 [anthony]
DS: What is the difference with treating it as an error or an unsupported value?
14:08:31 [anthony]
... unsupported value it goes back to the Lacuna value
14:09:49 [anthony]
... there is no Lacuna value for xlink:href
14:09:51 [anthony]
ED: For animation it's the parent element
14:10:00 [anthony]
... but would result in odd behavior
14:10:27 [anthony]
DS: We talked about this yesterday and we went through a change of reasoning
14:10:31 [anthony]
... that's sounds
14:10:57 [anthony]
CM: So this action is about changing the spec
14:11:03 [anthony]
... if we leave it as is
14:11:07 [anthony]
... what about the test
14:11:15 [anthony]
AG: The test is fine as long as the UA doesn't blow up
14:11:46 [anthony]
CM: Full 1.1 says render up until the broken thing
14:11:52 [anthony]
... what do you do in this case?
14:12:11 [anthony]
DS: An error is underspecified
14:12:16 [anthony]
... maybe we should specify it
14:12:24 [anthony]
... we could say for example
14:12:45 [anthony]
... in a recursion that the render should stop for that recursion and then render
14:12:53 [anthony]
... as able
14:13:31 [anthony]
CM: The first one that you come across in rendering tree order
14:13:54 [anthony]
DS: Can be quiet complicated
14:14:17 [anthony]
... some UAs allow a certain level of circular reference
14:14:34 [anthony]
... the only problem with circular references is the risk of excessive memory usage
14:14:42 [anthony]
... that's why we don't want to allow it
14:14:58 [anthony]
ED: So yesterday did we have any action on that?
14:15:01 [anthony]
DS: No
14:15:08 [anthony]
... but we should say what an error means
14:15:57 [anthony]
CM: [Reads out passing condition of test]
14:16:08 [anthony]
ED: So you'd have one level or recursion
14:16:18 [anthony]
DS: No not necessarily
14:16:40 [anthony]
CM: So you don't even rely on one cycle
14:19:20 [anthony]
DS: [Tests different implementations]
14:20:24 [anthony]
DS: In my point with regards to error handling, in the case of recursion the
14:20:28 [anthony]
... change should be broken
14:20:34 [anthony]
... but we don't say where
14:20:57 [anthony]
... perhaps at a UA specific time of detection of the loop
14:21:14 [anthony]
CM: For the test case say that circles will appear, duplicates will not
14:21:46 [anthony]
DS: We should further say that, UAs must continue to render the document as they are able
14:24:05 [anthony]
... comes down to a highly perceivable error
14:25:11 [anthony]
CM: At the moment it doesn't say what to do about the rendering of the document when there is an error
14:25:19 [anthony]
... we could say use a Lacuna value if there is one
14:25:31 [anthony]
... and not render it if there is none
14:25:40 [anthony]
ED: The Lacuna value may not make sense
14:25:56 [anthony]
DS: Hang on, what causes errors?
14:28:59 [anthony]
ED: In Animation chapter
14:29:02 [anthony]
... for the begin attribute
14:29:06 [anthony]
... there is some wording
14:29:12 [anthony]
... saying that if the Begin attribute is in error
14:29:22 [anthony]
... it's equivalent to blah
14:29:30 [anthony]
... should say SMIL error
14:29:44 [heycam]
see http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-SMIL2-20051213/smil-timing.html#Timing-ErrorHandlingSemantics
14:32:47 [anthony]
RESOLUTION: Circular dependencies are an Error. Error handling needs to be better defined
14:34:35 [shepazu]
syntactically invalid
14:36:58 [anthony]
AG: What about application/java-archive
14:37:01 [anthony]
... in scripting
14:37:18 [anthony]
... if the EventListenerInitializer2 is not implemented, it is an error
14:37:25 [anthony]
... should this be a Java error?
14:50:02 [ed]
http://www.explain.com.au/oss/libxml2xslt.html
14:51:01 [anthony]
CM: Does it need to an error?
14:51:29 [anthony]
s/to an/to be an/
14:51:57 [anthony]
... it doesn't seem to be like a particularly bad thing that needs to be an error
14:52:04 [anthony]
... I think just say that nothing is run
14:52:12 [anthony]
ED: Would be nice to show a message about it
14:52:28 [anthony]
DS: Unsupported will also put something in the console
14:53:56 [anthony]
CM: If it's not in error where else will we hook in?
14:54:07 [anthony]
... we could say that the element is unsupported
14:54:24 [anthony]
... if it doesn't pull in script
14:54:40 [anthony]
... so the equivalent Java script is it tries to evaluate it
14:54:50 [anthony]
... and through an unsupported type error
14:54:57 [anthony]
s/error/exception/
15:14:53 [anthony]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/master/script.html
15:15:12 [anthony]
ED: Ok to leave it I guess
15:16:41 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2024
15:16:48 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2024
15:19:11 [anthony]
DS: Ok
15:19:15 [anthony]
... this is an easy on
15:19:19 [anthony]
s/on/one/
15:20:05 [anthony]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008AprJun/att-0082/20080520-svg-minutes.html#item03
15:20:27 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2027
15:20:34 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2027
15:22:07 [anthony]
ED: I guess it is possible to calculate some kind of range
15:22:41 [anthony]
CM: What does it mean... is the current range wrong?
15:22:58 [anthony]
... the current restrictions are make it easy for users typing content
15:23:09 [anthony]
... the range is such that it's suitable for 16 point 16 numbers
15:23:18 [anthony]
... not sure what it'd be changed to in this action
15:26:04 [anthony]
... chapter is types
15:26:06 [Zakim]
heycam, you asked to be reminded at this time that i shouldn't work too hard
15:26:38 [anthony]
Zakim, remind me in 2 hours that I'm awesome
15:26:38 [Zakim]
ok, anthony
15:27:58 [anthony]
CM: Have we used more than 4 decimal places in tests?
15:28:42 [anthony]
ED: Don't think it's such a big thing
15:29:23 [anthony]
... haven't had anyone complain about the epsilon that we are using
15:29:40 [anthony]
CM: Dr Olaf's test have some to 8 decimal places
15:36:58 [anthony]
ED: From what I remember it was about calculating the epsilon for the test
15:37:41 [anthony]
CM: There are 27 tests have a dot followed by 5 digits
15:37:53 [anthony]
AG: 5 or more
15:37:55 [anthony]
CM: Yes
15:38:35 [anthony]
ED: What about scientific notation
15:38:51 [anthony]
... I think we should continue?
15:40:52 [anthony]
DS: We should change the tests at a later point
15:42:05 [anthony]
CM: So move the action to the test suite
15:43:16 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2048
15:43:24 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2048
15:44:11 [anthony]
CM: Change it for text content element and not block elements
15:44:18 [anthony]
ED: I guess I can do that tomorrow
15:44:36 [anthony]
AG: We could split it
15:44:45 [anthony]
... so that you only do the Tiny 1.2 bit
15:44:57 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2063
15:45:22 [anthony]
CM: Got a reply about it
15:45:29 [anthony]
... I'll be doing it
15:45:44 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2072
15:45:54 [anthony]
ED: Already done the issue
15:46:01 [anthony]
... action can be closed
15:46:16 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2075
15:46:21 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2075
15:47:19 [anthony]
DS: Problem is a duplicate id
15:48:37 [anthony]
... about an id on specific element
15:48:41 [anthony]
CM: "g" element
15:51:11 [anthony]
DS: Can't solve it right now
15:51:15 [anthony]
... let's leave it open
15:51:21 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2078
15:52:42 [anthony_]
anthony_ has joined #svg
15:53:09 [anthony]
DS: We'll keep it for now
15:53:17 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2088
15:53:23 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2088
15:54:30 [anthony]
ED: We didn't resolve to change the event names
15:54:54 [anthony]
... but we did resolve to change the progress events do not bubble
15:55:21 [anthony]
... so I think this action is only asking if it's going to be a problem
15:58:38 [anthony]
... I'd like to see the same events used
16:08:06 [anthony]
... I don't want two sets
16:08:46 [anthony]
... what we could do is change the progress event to progress
16:08:52 [anthony]
... and change preload to loadstart
16:09:05 [anthony]
DS: So change the ones that are just identical
16:09:17 [anthony]
ED: Yes
16:32:23 [aemmons]
aemmons has joined #svg
16:33:09 [anthony]
AE: I haven't done it yet
16:35:46 [anthony]
DS: We'd like to align where possible
16:38:02 [anthony]
AE: I agree we should align
16:38:19 [anthony]
ACTION: Emmons to inform JSR/OMA when we go to Last Call
16:38:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2158 - Inform JSR/OMA when we go to Last Call [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-08-29].
16:38:37 [anthony]
ACTION: Erik to Do progress event name change to Tiny 1.2
16:38:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2159 - Do progress event name change to Tiny 1.2 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-08-29].
16:39:24 [anthony]
trackbot, close ACTION-2088
16:39:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-2088 Contact OMA/JSRs about changing progress event names closed
16:39:39 [anthony]
AE: There is a progress event name that would have to change
16:42:08 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2107
16:42:12 [anthony]
CM: Keep that
16:42:22 [anthony]
... it's related to script changes
16:42:26 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2121
16:42:36 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2121
16:42:42 [anthony]
DS: Should reassign this
16:44:00 [anthony]
... it's not urgent
16:44:08 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2128
16:44:16 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2128
16:46:27 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/mid/20071008061239.GG5233@arc.mcc.id.au
16:47:20 [anthony]
DS: For focus out it's clear
16:47:23 [anthony]
CM: What's the target?
16:47:29 [anthony]
DS: The target is the thing you're leaving
16:47:40 [anthony]
CM: You're leaving the target to what?
16:48:32 [anthony]
DS: We can't know what's going on inside
16:48:44 [anthony]
s/inside/outside/
16:48:50 [anthony]
... but we can know what's going on inside
16:49:12 [anthony]
CM: So some how from reading it sounded like
16:50:29 [anthony]
DS: It is just the document and not the device focus
16:52:10 [anthony]
AG: Does anything need to be changed atm?
16:52:22 [anthony]
CM: That section seems a bit unclear
16:53:22 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2129
16:53:27 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2129
16:54:13 [anthony]
DS: Sounds like something we've addressed at some point
16:55:18 [anthony]
... I'd say move it to Core
16:55:53 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2130
16:56:01 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2130
16:59:27 [anthony]
ED: It's just an example
16:59:50 [heycam]
trackbot, close ACTION-2130
16:59:50 [trackbot]
ACTION-2130 Add an example to the spec that clarifies what the section on access trait means (relating to erik's 'type' TraitAccess mail too) closed
16:59:59 [heycam]
ACTION-2130: Closed but not actually done! Score!
16:59:59 [trackbot]
ACTION-2130 Add an example to the spec that clarifies what the section on access trait means (relating to erik's 'type' TraitAccess mail too) notes added
17:00:26 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2131
17:00:36 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2131
17:01:46 [anthony]
CM: Shifted to Core
17:02:03 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2132
17:02:08 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2132
17:03:02 [anthony]
DS: [summaries action]
17:05:03 [anthony]
DS: We could say should give a highly perceivable indication that a link is in scope
17:05:14 [anthony]
... such as displaying the URL to the location of the link
17:05:26 [anthony]
... and changing the cursor or the focus indicator
17:06:16 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2133
17:06:18 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2133
17:07:32 [anthony]
DS: [summaries action]
17:08:09 [anthony]
DS: I'll email out
17:08:26 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2134
17:08:28 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2134
17:08:48 [anthony]
ED: This is not Tiny 1.2
17:09:30 [anthony]
DS: Move to Full 1.1
17:09:41 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2135
17:09:43 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2135
17:10:09 [anthony]
DS: [summaries action]
17:11:00 [anthony]
ED: This is something we could do for Core
17:11:08 [anthony]
DS: Would be a good reform
17:11:11 [anthony]
... is something more involved
17:12:29 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2137
17:12:33 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2137
17:14:51 [anthony]
CM: The section doesn't have any references
17:15:01 [anthony]
... but you could link to sections that talk about paced animation
17:15:10 [anthony]
ED: You'd have to read the calc mode stuff
17:15:17 [anthony]
... and that's linked to SMIL
17:15:24 [anthony]
... to paced animation is linked to calc mode
17:15:28 [anthony]
... I think the links are there
17:16:03 [anthony]
CM: It's more about making the animation chapter clearer
17:17:48 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2138
17:17:48 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2138
17:18:44 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-svg-minutes.html#item04
17:20:15 [anthony]
DS: Keep it open
17:20:21 [anthony]
... further discussion required
17:22:35 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2139
17:22:38 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2139
17:22:49 [anthony]
CM: I've done the first part of this action
17:22:58 [anthony]
... that does the master2publish
17:23:05 [anthony]
... in one central script
17:24:00 [anthony]
ACTION: Cameron to create a script that generates a single page of the spec
17:24:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2160 - Create a script that generates a single page of the spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
17:24:48 [anthony]
ACTION: Anthony to Implement a create index script that works for all modules
17:24:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2161 - Implement a create index script that works for all modules [on Anthony Grasso - due 2008-08-29].
17:25:02 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to make the publication script work for modules, too
17:25:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2162 - Make the publication script work for modules, too [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-29].
17:26:12 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2140
17:26:13 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2140
17:26:27 [anthony]
ED: About having different colours for elements and attributes
17:26:34 [anthony]
... it's not very hard
17:26:38 [Zakim]
anthony, you asked to be reminded at this time that I'm awesome
17:26:39 [anthony]
... would be useful
17:27:03 [anthony]
Zakim, remind me in 1 hour that there is no cost for awesomeness
17:27:03 [Zakim]
ok, anthony
17:27:12 [anthony]
ED: Not very important to have it done
17:27:17 [anthony]
AG: Put it to Core?
17:27:20 [anthony]
ED: I guess we could
17:27:27 [anthony]
... not essential
17:27:29 [anthony]
... for publishing
17:28:07 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2140
17:28:08 [ed]
...moved ACTION-2141 to svg core too
17:28:25 [anthony]
ED: Moved 2140 to core
17:32:53 [anthony]
Topic: ACTION-2144
17:32:56 [anthony]
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2144
17:35:26 [anthony]
CM: all good, going to keep that
18:00:47 [anthony]
Zakim, bye
18:00:47 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #svg
18:00:58 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:00:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-minutes.html heycam
18:02:23 [heycam]
RRSAgent, smell ya later!
18:02:23 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'smell ya later!', heycam. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:02:24 [heycam]
RRSAgent, bye
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-actions.rdf :
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: heycam to fix the notation of value types for paced animation [1]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T07-57-47
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: heycam to stop adding seconds to minced meat [2]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T08-29-34
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: heycam to change paced animation of scale to use Euclidian distance formulae [3]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T08-45-53
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: heycam to change "coordinate+" to "list of coordinate", and "number+" to "list of number" for consistency [4]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T09-03-20
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: heycam to add "list of coordinate" and "list of number" to the paced animation table, with the same distance formula as "list of length" [5]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T09-06-21
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: fattony to split unresolved points of ISSUE-268 / ISSUE-2032 into individual issues for Core [6]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T09-10-43
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DS to add the keyboard events from DOM 3 Events to an SVGT12 appendix [7]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T10-24-21
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to fix transition from DOM 3 Events to DOM 2 Events and uDOM, and to fix testsuite [8]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T10-49-26
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to do all of the actions discussed above [9]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T12-44-53
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Emmons to inform JSR/OMA when we go to Last Call [10]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T16-38-19
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik to Do progress event name change to Tiny 1.2 [11]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T16-38-37
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to create a script that generates a single page of the spec [12]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T17-24-00
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Anthony to Implement a create index script that works for all modules [13]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T17-24-48
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to make the publication script work for modules, too [14]
18:02:24 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/22-svg-irc#T17-25-02