13:45:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:45:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc
13:45:35 <Steven> zakim, this will be XHTML
13:45:35 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start now
13:45:43 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
13:45:56 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
13:46:00 <Steven> Chair: Steven
13:46:14 <Tina> Tina has joined #xhtml
13:46:28 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0036.html
13:46:39 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0036.html
13:46:46 <Steven> regrets: Roland
13:47:39 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:47:39 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:47:40 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
13:47:41 <Zakim> +Steven
13:47:51 <Steven> zakim, drop steven
13:47:51 <Zakim> Steven is being disconnected
13:47:53 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
13:47:53 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven
13:48:16 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:48:30 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:48:30 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:48:31 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
13:48:32 <Zakim> +Steven
13:48:42 <Zakim> +McCarron
13:48:55 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
13:48:55 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
13:49:11 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:49:27 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0036.html
13:50:38 <Zakim> +Tina_Holmboe
13:51:24 <oedipus> zakim, choose a victim
13:51:24 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tina_Holmboe
13:54:21 <oedipus> [fyi] i formally proposed to PF that HTML5 add @role for IMG
13:54:35 <ShaneM> Scribe: ShaneM
13:55:25 <ShaneM> Topic: Technical Plenary Registration
13:55:46 <ShaneM> Registration is open.  Who is planning to come? *crickets*
13:55:49 <oedipus> GJR: coming good lord willin' and the crick don't rise
13:56:20 <ShaneM> Tina is unsure if she will have time.
13:56:56 <ShaneM> Steven thinks it will be very sparsely attended.  Will see about organizing a teleconference.
13:57:11 <ShaneM> Topic: Outstanding Reviews
13:57:22 <ShaneM> XSD - not due for another month yet.  Mark is doing it.
13:57:29 <ShaneM> Topic: XHTML M12N PR Status
13:57:49 <ShaneM> We went to PR and it went to a vote.  
13:58:19 <ShaneM> *Steven stretches it out to increase the suspense*
13:58:58 <ShaneM> There were a reasonable number of member companies who voted.  
13:59:53 <ShaneM> We did get somebody who sent comments that are not suitable at this point in the review.  They are more last call comments.
13:59:59 <ShaneM> The person asked for 5 changes to the spec.
14:00:20 <ShaneM> 1) Please define a clear path between CDF and XHTML M12N 1.1
14:00:54 <ShaneM> 2) What's the goal of referencing Unicode 4.1?
14:01:08 <ShaneM> 3) Please update the reference to the XML specification to 4th edition.
14:01:25 <ShaneM> 4) Update the reference to namespaces in XML to the second edition.
14:01:42 <ShaneM> 5) Informative references points to XLink PR instead of Rec.
14:02:16 <oedipus> SM: not our responsibility to do anything with regard to spec in regards CDF
14:04:17 <oedipus> SM: reference unicode 1.1 and mention that it is updated; not sure that's a change
14:04:37 <oedipus> SP: normative reference - where referenced from?
14:05:18 <oedipus> SM: (checks) - reference in Special Character Entity Set defs as symbol set def; in the DTD implementation itself, defining unicode points that map to ASCII
14:05:40 <oedipus> SP: "new names do not clash with..." "names are unicode names" - that's the only place
14:06:00 <oedipus> TH: supposed to reference unicode per se?  what does requestor want us to reference?
14:06:25 <oedipus> SP: comment based on references section - different from XHTML2 which references 1.2
14:06:36 <oedipus> SM: previous version referenced 3.1 - don't recall changing
14:07:07 <oedipus> s/references 1.2/references 3.2
14:07:32 <oedipus> s/reference unicode 1.1/reference unicode 3.1
14:07:44 <oedipus> SP: answer - no difference - just reference most up to date one
14:08:07 <ShaneM> We can reference 4th edition of XML.
14:08:39 <oedipus> TH: version we refer to, versus version requestor wants to reference
14:09:05 <oedipus> TH: if changed drastically in XML, then could understand change, but don't reference most up-to-date all the time
14:09:19 <oedipus> SM: provide links to latest version often
14:09:28 <oedipus> SM: these are a year-and-a-half old
14:09:39 <oedipus> SM: no diff marked version of namespaces spec
14:11:22 <oedipus> TH: see point, but as dev, prefer when document a refers to document b.x - can compare better knowing dates and changes
14:12:35 <ShaneM> Shane: The second edition of namespaces is harmless
14:12:57 <ShaneM> Steven proposes we say we will not do the CDF thing, that it does not matter we reference 4.1, and that we will make the changes to the other references.
14:13:22 <ShaneM> Steven will get his OK on this.
14:13:33 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to update the references.
14:13:41 <ShaneM> ACTION: Steven to reply to the commentor.
14:14:17 <ShaneM> ACTION: Steven get M12N published as a Recommendation with the changes applied.
14:14:46 <ShaneM> ACTION2=Steven to reply to M12N commentor about how we will address their M12N objections.
14:15:00 <ShaneM> Topic: XHTML Basic 1.1
14:15:10 <ShaneM> All good - everything is fine.
14:16:27 <oedipus> SM: ian jacobs asked me to make a change so that our implementations are in markup space, but a fixed version in TR space; can do this and will do it before Rec
14:16:38 <oedipus> SM: fits in with "cool URIs don't change"
14:16:51 <oedipus> SM: have to do for M12n, anyway
14:16:59 <oedipus> SP: changes to XML 4th edition, and so on?
14:17:21 <oedipus> SM: just thought it was a friendly observation, so made change to references
14:17:55 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to update XHTML M12N DTD links so that there are versions in TR space and MarkUp space, as per XHTML Basic 1.1
14:18:18 <oedipus> TOPIC: Access and SVG Request
14:18:39 <oedipus> SM: 2 diff collections of SVG things - one bag not formally responded to; made most changes except for one request
14:19:17 <oedipus> SM: topic this week about adding @order to access - dougS was at last week's meeting; thought we had agreement, then reconsidered; took doug's wording and tweaked it and he didn' like it
14:19:31 <oedipus> SM: philosophic difference - 
14:19:55 <oedipus> SM: i need to withdraw myself from decision path
14:19:57 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0031.html
14:20:30 <oedipus> SM: Doug thinks should describe positive behaviors, when docs written in conflict with standard, and i think we shouldn't - describe either no behavior or negative behavior
14:20:42 <oedipus> SP: agree - if conflict, just a bad doc and don't have to address
14:20:49 <oedipus> SM: traditional approach - could go further
14:20:58 <oedipus> SP: wants us to define what a duplicate id does
14:21:13 <oedipus> SM: positively, and that should work in violation of the principles of the ML
14:21:31 <oedipus> TH: if write broken documents, expect bad results
14:22:18 <oedipus> SM: always said that underlying protocols rule; if dependent on HTTP, can't define behavior that violates HTTP, and so on; 
14:22:24 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to SM
14:23:06 <oedipus> SM: doug's other point is that access module is useful outside of XHTML and XML and should define it so can be used in other places; don't have scope, is an XHTML module, 
14:23:43 <oedipus> SP: not chartered to do it; ocassionally extended boundaries (XML Events, for example) - not just to work with our stuff, but everyone's but that was within XML framework
14:24:17 <oedipus> TH: that is the problem - within XML framework; scope Doug talks about is use in theoretical MLs that don't exist or are not XML based
14:24:51 <oedipus> SM: what i heard was "how to use in HTML5" - want to use access in SVG, so should NOT be a problem with Access, because it is all XML
14:25:02 <oedipus> SP: should work with SVG, think we are good to go
14:25:04 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
14:25:33 <oedipus> SM: doug proposed what happened when 2 diff IDs - added scenario to draft encased in @ signs
14:25:39 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080809/#sec_3.1.3.
14:26:50 <oedipus> SP: sounds like we are all of one mind that should define rules for broken stuff
14:27:02 <ShaneM> in particular rules that have positive behavior.
14:27:17 <oedipus> TH: no - really should NOT define rules for both content within scope of XML to satisfy needs of HTML5
14:27:23 <ShaneM> The current wording reads "Also note:  When processing an invalid document, if there are duplicate ids, element groups based on targetid values may contain multiple values, just like those of targetrole values."
14:27:56 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements
14:28:13 <oedipus> SM: say wither "invalid document, behavior is undefined" or nothing
14:28:18 <oedipus> SP: strongly feel NOTHING
14:28:21 <oedipus> TH: agree
14:28:25 <oedipus> GJR: violently agree
14:28:38 <oedipus> SM: valid XML document shouldn't get to application layer anyway
14:28:43 <Zakim> -Tina_Holmboe
14:28:46 <oedipus> SM: going to remove sentence
14:28:49 <Tina> ... that was fun
14:28:51 <oedipus> SP: agreed
14:28:55 <oedipus> GJR: agreed
14:28:59 <Tina> Agreed - tho I fell out.
14:29:21 <oedipus> SP: since speaking about Access, whole bunch of comments from i18n
14:29:34 <Zakim> +Tina_Holmboe
14:30:40 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0008.html
14:31:03 <oedipus> SM: one which most concerns me is keycodes and characters - isn't clear that this section (3.1.2.) didn't take into account keycode and key produced by pressing key (reads from post refered to above)
14:31:15 <oedipus> TH: that is an application / implementation problem
14:31:38 <oedipus> SM: character in document character set - how one gets to that is up to app
14:32:38 <oedipus> TH: implementation side - use access key with this symbol and do this action - how implementation triggers accesskey, may be through eye-blinking entry - may press key-combo - whether press key combo to create specific char in specific char set, is implementation decision
14:32:43 <oedipus> TH: cites opera model
14:32:50 <oedipus> GJR: agree that opera model best yet available
14:33:29 <oedipus> TH: shouldn't say "have to press these specific keys" to get action; don't specify how, but structural construct is path to useability and accessibility
14:34:06 <oedipus> TH: shouldn't be Access Module that tells one how to get keystroke generated, just provide means
14:35:06 <oedipus> TH: should NOT define specific mechanism 
14:35:41 <ShaneM> The key attribute is an abstraction layer - how the user agent maps to that is up to the user agent.  That's the whole point.
14:35:44 <oedipus> TH: asian characters and glyphs from non-western scripts - user can use shortcut command to optimize functionality
14:35:49 <oedipus> http://a11y.org/kafs
14:35:55 <oedipus> http://a11y.org/kafs-gta
14:36:16 <oedipus> SP: agree entirely - we speak of characters, not keys -- way to get particular character is application-dependent
14:36:35 <oedipus> SP: different entry methods to enter extended / accented characters
14:36:47 <oedipus> SP: nothing we can say about it, save that it is UA dependent
14:36:57 <oedipus> TH: use word "symbol" instead of "key"
14:37:12 <oedipus> http://gok.ca (GNOME on screen keyboard)
14:37:25 <Steven> The invocation of access keys depends on the implementation. For instance, on some systems one may have to press an "alt" or "cmd" key in addition to the access key.
14:37:28 <oedipus> TH: most often keypress, can be activated by other means, not in our scope, though
14:37:50 <oedipus> SP: change to "or anything else that might happen"
14:38:04 <oedipus> SM: or other user agent defined mechanisms for exposing shortcuts defined by access
14:38:19 <oedipus> TH: can configure opera to trigger access key with mouse gestures
14:38:38 <ShaneM> "or other user agent defined mechanisms that expose the abstraction made available by the access element and its key attribute."
14:38:39 <oedipus> GJR: Opera+Voice accesskey implementation works
14:38:58 <oedipus> TH: list of shortcuts in document
14:39:02 <oedipus> SP: target change
14:39:38 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
14:39:48 <oedipus> TH: hard read at first, but covers it well, so ok
14:39:52 <oedipus> SP: good
14:40:05 <oedipus> SP: 2 other comments from i18n
14:40:13 <oedipus> SP: comment 2 and comment 4
14:40:17 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0006.html
14:41:00 <oedipus> SP: emphasizing visually role of key in label - problematic in non-western text
14:41:17 <oedipus> SM: more basic problem with this text
14:41:20 <oedipus> GJR: from UAAG
14:41:48 <oedipus> SM: concern is we explicitly permit (and perhaps require) end users to over-ride mapping; how does that affect rendering if remap
14:42:05 <oedipus> GJR: programmatically not an issue
14:42:14 <oedipus> SM: agree, but have to state that
14:42:40 <oedipus> TH: key="x" include x in label text, user changes to p, UA should remap action to p
14:43:09 <oedipus> TH: should we reverse this text - if UA understands access keys and can identify the key in the label text, should emphasize it for user
14:43:41 <oedipus> TH: right now says, author should include key - if user overrides key, then UA needs to pick up on it; but what if new key not in label?  loose benefit
14:43:59 <oedipus> SP: principle is to have keys all in one set and diff sets in diff modalities
14:45:26 <oedipus> GJR: not opposed to anything said about access -- "visibility" in non-modal sense is stress of UAAG 2.0 drafting
14:45:38 <oedipus> SP: more to discuss - continue on list
14:45:41 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to go through I18N comments and propose specific changes.
14:45:50 <oedipus> TH: have to discuss on list - other potential problems
14:46:14 <Zakim> -Steven
14:46:16 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:46:27 <ShaneM> ACTION: Tina to propose new text about how the access element @key value is exposed in labels.
14:46:39 <oedipus> i/SM: ian/ScribeNick: oedipus
14:46:51 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:46:54 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:46:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:47:12 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:47:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tina_Holmboe
14:47:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Tina, RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Steven
14:47:17 <Steven> zakim, drop tina
14:47:19 <Zakim> Tina_Holmboe is being disconnected
14:47:21 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:47:25 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita, Tina_Holmboe
14:47:30 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:47:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
14:48:13 <oedipus> i/SM: not our/ScribeNick: oedipus
14:48:35 <oedipus> zakim, please part
14:48:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml
14:50:43 <oedipus> i/SM: not our/ScribeNick+ oedipus
14:50:50 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:50:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:51:48 <oedipus> i/Shane: The second/ScribeNick+ ShaneM
14:51:56 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:51:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:52:58 <oedipus> s/Access and SVG Request/Access Module: SVG and i18n Requests/Comments
14:53:01 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:54:21 <oedipus> s/Access and SVG Request/Access Module - SVG and i18n Requests/Comments
14:54:24 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:54:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:55:10 <oedipus> s/TOPIC: Access and SVG Request/TOPIC: Access Module - SVG and i18n Requests/Comments
14:55:13 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:55:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:59:37 <oedipus> s/Access and SVG Request/Access Module - SVG and i18n Requests & Comments
14:59:43 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:15:49 <Steven> yes
15:16:05 <Steven> rrsagent, bye
15:16:05 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-actions.rdf :
15:16:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to update the references. [1]
15:16:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-13-33
15:16:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven to reply to M12N commentor about how we will address their M12N objections. [2]
15:16:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-13-41
15:16:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven get M12N published as a Recommendation with the changes applied. [3]
15:16:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-14-17
15:16:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to update XHTML M12N DTD links so that there are versions in TR space and MarkUp space, as per XHTML Basic 1.1 [4]
15:16:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-17-55
15:16:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to go through I18N comments and propose specific changes. [5]
15:16:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-45-41
15:16:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Tina to propose new text about how the access element @key value is exposed in labels. [6]
15:16:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-xhtml-irc#T14-46-27