IRC log of forms on 2008-08-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:43:37 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #forms
14:43:37 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-forms-irc
14:43:41 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
14:43:44 [John_Boyer]: rrsagent, make log public
14:43:45 [Charlie]: zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
14:43:45 [Zakim]: +Charlie; got it
14:43:50 [nick]: zakim, code?
14:43:50 [Zakim]: the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick
14:44:29 [Zakim]: +Nick_van_den_Bleeken
14:44:33 [prb]: prb has joined #forms
14:44:54 [John_Boyer]: Meeting: Weekly Forms WG Teleconference
14:45:02 [Zakim]: +John_Boyer
14:45:22 [John_Boyer]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Aug/0049.html
14:45:32 [John_Boyer]: Chair: John
14:45:52 [John_Boyer]: Regrets: MarkB, Kenneth, Leigh, Rafael, Uli
14:46:24 [prb]: Zakim, code?
14:46:24 [Zakim]: the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), prb
14:46:46 [wellsk]: wellsk has joined #forms
14:47:03 [Zakim]: +??P3
14:47:15 [prb]: Zakim, I am?
14:47:15 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, prb.
14:47:17 [Zakim]: +wellsk
14:47:24 [prb]: Zakim, I am
14:47:29 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'I am', prb
14:47:44 [prb]: Zakim, I am ??P3
14:47:44 [Zakim]: +prb; got it
14:47:54 [wellsk]: zakim, who is here?
14:47:54 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Charlie, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, John_Boyer, prb, wellsk
14:47:56 [Zakim]: On IRC I see wellsk, prb, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Charlie, ebruchez, Roger, Steven, nick, trackbot
14:47:59 [Zakim]: +ebruchez
14:48:33 [John_Boyer]: zakim, who is here?
14:48:33 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Charlie, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, John_Boyer, prb, wellsk, ebruchez
14:48:36 [Zakim]: On IRC I see wellsk, prb, RRSAgent, Zakim, John_Boyer, Charlie, ebruchez, Roger, Steven, nick, trackbot
14:50:12 [Steven]: zakim, dial steven-617
14:50:12 [Zakim]: ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:50:14 [Zakim]: +Steven
14:50:24 [John_Boyer]: scribe: Erik
14:50:43 [John_Boyer]: scribenick: ebruchez
14:51:08 [John_Boyer]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Aug/0049.html
14:51:45 [ebruchez]: Topic: The Forms Newsletter
14:52:04 [ebruchez]: John: Do we have anything new to mention, it's been a couple of months.
14:52:39 [ebruchez]: Steven: I will try to see if I see something.
14:52:49 [nick]: rest
14:54:08 [ebruchez]: Steven: There has been some talk about XRX (XForms/REST/XQuery). It is an interesting way of looking at the world. We could gather some of the information that has been produced on this.
14:54:33 [ebruchez]: John: Regarding Ubiquity, we want to wait a bit more before making a big splash.
14:54:43 [nick]: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/XRX
14:54:58 [ebruchez]: Steven: I am quite impressed.
14:55:34 [ebruchez]: John: We have loading time performance to work on. We want accuracy first, speed second.
14:56:38 [Charlie]: Paul: the ubiquity files will eventually be compressed which will help load time
14:56:42 [ebruchez]: Paul: We load lots of small files. That can be improved.
14:56:50 [ebruchez]: Topic: XForms 1.1
14:57:40 [ebruchez]: Steven: Re. Input Mode, [...] hoping that Martin will review what I did.
14:58:30 [ebruchez]: John: Do we need to book a call with Martin?
14:58:58 [ebruchez]: Steven: First let's see if he responds, then we'll see if we need a call.
14:59:46 [ebruchez]: John: Next things regards the submission headers fix.
15:00:10 [ebruchez]: Steven: BTW we need to make sure we refer to XML 4th edition.
15:00:29 [Steven]: and namespaces 2e
15:00:37 [ebruchez]: John: Implementation report progress, Keith, it seems there is something new?
15:00:49 [ebruchez]: Keith: [...]
15:01:39 [ebruchez]: Keith: It's hard for the public to access those builds.
15:02:05 [nick]: We refer to 'Extensible Markup Language (XML) 1.0 (Fourth Edition)'
15:02:30 [ebruchez]: John: Would be good to have an implementation report on publicly available software.
15:03:25 [ebruchez]: ACTION: Keith to find out whether latest code changes to Firefox XForms extension can be made public.
15:03:26 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-487 - Find out whether latest code changes to Firefox XForms extension can be made public. [on Keith Wells - due 2008-08-20].
15:04:26 [ebruchez]: John: What about Erik?
15:04:56 [ebruchez]: Erik: Still would like to do it, but we have been overwhelmed with other tasks.
15:05:15 [ebruchez]: John: I would like to get one for Ubiquity as well.
15:07:40 [ebruchez]: John: We absolutely want XForms 1.1 out, so we need the implementation reports.
15:12:15 [Zakim]: -wellsk
15:12:41 [ebruchez]: Topic: Action items
15:13:46 [ebruchez]: Charlie: Regarding the Joint Task Force, [...]
15:14:07 [ebruchez]: Charlie: I am trying to find where we are at with the simplified syntax.
15:14:53 [Charlie]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Mar/0097.html
15:15:36 [Zakim]: +wellsk
15:15:58 [Charlie]: John: that's current, plus put name attribute on bind to create variables
15:16:42 [ebruchez]: John: Steven, what about "Sentence about XHTML Modularization"?
15:17:04 [ebruchez]: Steven: Will make this a higher priority.
15:17:29 [ebruchez]: John: There was some work by Leigh regarding the XPath function library,
15:17:34 [ebruchez]: s/library,/library.
15:17:42 [John_Boyer]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Aug/0038.html
15:18:27 [ebruchez]: Keith: I just sent an email to the list about the test suite.
15:21:22 [ebruchez]: John: (going through Keith's email)
15:23:12 [ebruchez]: John: 5) section 10.3, I made it clearer how the @origin attribute is evaluated (relative to the in-scope evaluation context)
15:24:23 [ebruchez]: John: 6) Changes to the Accept header are in now
15:24:51 [John_Boyer]: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.1/index-diff.html#SOAP-HTTP-Binding
15:25:02 [ebruchez]: John: Paul, in particular, it would be great if you could review that part.
15:29:40 [ebruchez]: Topic: Draft instance data module
15:29:49 [John_Boyer]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Aug/0021.html
15:30:46 [ebruchez]: John: Charlie, can you drive us through that spec text?
15:31:14 [ebruchez]: Charlie: Will need CVS access.
15:31:26 [ebruchez]: John: Steven and I will make that happen.
15:33:37 [ebruchez]: Charlie: We want a very minimal module capturing "data island aspects". You only have the instance element, @src/@resource.
15:34:02 [ebruchez]: Charlie: Question about common attributes. But there is nothing else in this module.
15:36:02 [ebruchez]: Charlie: Raising the question again about whether this it is a useful level of functionality.
15:36:10 [ebruchez]: John: I think so.
15:37:07 [ebruchez]: Charlie: It seems to me that @src should be a common function. We have been back and forth on this.
15:37:26 [ebruchez]: John: We need the instance element as a base layer.
15:37:59 [ebruchez]: John: Didn't your recent demo only use this level of data support you have here?
15:38:21 [ebruchez]: John: I.e. you didn't need insert or delete.
15:39:46 [ebruchez]: John: Are we still talking about a separate DOM?
15:40:25 [ebruchez]: Charlie: See 1.1.2.
15:41:28 [ebruchez]: Charlie:[...]
15:42:28 [ebruchez]: John: I think one positive aspect of this level of modularization is that it is pointing out at little mistakes, like dispatching xforms-link-exception to the model.
15:43:44 [ebruchez]: Charlie: Some questions, like what if other modules need to define xforms-link-exception too.
15:44:41 [ebruchez]: John: It wouldn't be a big issue if we had to introduce an incompatiblity with xforms-link-exception as that will stop XForms processing anyway.
15:45:43 [ebruchez]: John: If you target it at xforms:instance, it will bubble up to the model anyway, if you use a model.
15:48:19 [ebruchez]: Charlie: Do we need schema functions at this level too?
15:49:22 [ebruchez]: John: Schema should be in a separate module.
15:50:54 [John_Boyer]: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
15:51:12 [ebruchez]: Erik: What about new attributes I proposed to control validation lax/strict and types on xforms:instance? Would we still put this in a separate instance?
15:51:26 [ebruchez]: s/separate instance/separate module
15:51:33 [ebruchez]: Charlie: Yes.
15:52:27 [Zakim]: -Steven
15:53:07 [ebruchez]: John: The schema module will add to the Model module, so it can add to the data module as well.
15:53:54 [Steven]: zakim, dial steven-617
15:53:54 [Zakim]: ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:53:56 [Zakim]: +Steven
15:54:21 [Steven]: zakim, mute me
15:54:21 [Zakim]: Steven should now be muted
15:55:35 [ebruchez]: John: For now, we keep this as an XML data model. Other needs can be addressed later if demand arises.
15:58:35 [ebruchez]: John: I had this question about modularization and the & character.
15:58:47 [ebruchez]: [...]
15:59:04 [ebruchez]: Nick: You need to specify things like xml:base explicitly.
15:59:26 [John_Boyer]: common contains foreign namespaced attributes, not just id
15:59:35 [John_Boyer]: trying to work out if we need a module for common attributes
16:01:18 [ebruchez]: Nick: Can't the driver decide whether it allows attributes in a foreign namespace?
16:02:06 [ebruchez]: John: So as per modularization, we have no choice but to use this "any".
16:02:30 [ebruchez]: Charlie: Then I will add @id explicitly.
16:02:39 [ebruchez]: Nick: Then you can't extend the attribute group.
16:02:56 [ebruchez]: Charlie: But modularization requires this extensibility.
16:03:18 [ebruchez]: Nick: Just saying you need a name for the attribute group so you know what to extend.
16:03:33 [ebruchez]: Nick: So I thought we would add commons to all elements.
16:03:37 [Steven]: ack me
16:04:13 [nick]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_common_collection
16:04:54 [nick]: Common : Core + Events + I18N + Style
16:04:55 [ebruchez]: Steven: [...] XHTML has a common and a core set.
16:05:06 [ebruchez]: John: Can we reuse anything from XHTML
16:05:34 [nick]: Core xml:space ("default"* | "preserve"), class (NMTOKENS), id (ID), title (CDATA)
16:05:34 [nick]: I18N dir ("ltr" | "rtl"), xml:lang (CDATA)
16:05:34 [nick]: Events onclick (Script), ondblclick (Script), onmousedown (Script), onmouseup (Script), onmouseover (Script), onmousemove (Script), onmouseout (Script), onkeypress (Script), onkeydown (Script), onkeyup (Script)
16:05:34 [nick]: Style style (CDATA)
16:05:34 [nick]: Common Core + Events + I18N + Styl
16:05:43 [ebruchez]: Steven: If a module uses common, then that provides an extension point as well.
16:05:57 [ebruchez]: John: So I can create a module that extends from common?
16:06:25 [ebruchez]: Steven: The instance element can have an attribute set which extends on common.
16:06:37 [ebruchez]: Steven: You need an extensibility point.
16:08:17 [ebruchez]: John: We still have a problem understanding how to specify these aspects of modularization with schema.
16:08:26 [ebruchez]: Steven: The spec is in PR now.
16:09:43 [Steven]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/schema_module_defs.html#a_smodule_Intrinsic_Events
16:09:45 [ebruchez]: John: I am not finding an example.
16:09:57 [ebruchez]: Steven: (Sent link to example.)
16:10:33 [Steven]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_xhtmlmodules
16:10:37 [ebruchez]: Charlie: I am looking for the spec text so I know where to put that ampersand.
16:10:48 [ebruchez]: Steven: (Sent link to example.)
16:10:48 [nick]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/REC-xhtml-modularization-20010410/xhtml-modularization.html#s_imapmodule
16:11:30 [ebruchez]: John: How do I say in the instance module that I have a attribute group that may be extended by other modules?
16:11:47 [ebruchez]: Steven: In principle, they are all extensible.
16:11:56 [ebruchez]: John: But I don't see this for attributes.
16:12:17 [John_Boyer]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstraction.html#s_abstraction
16:12:27 [ebruchez]: Steven: Right, [...]. But I thought we were talking about the schema.
16:13:00 [ebruchez]: John: We define an instance element. Later, we want to extend. We just write instance&, and we are done?
16:13:03 [ebruchez]: Steven: Right.
16:13:37 [ebruchez]: Nick: It's better to have a common attribute group to facilitate the extension.
16:15:24 [ebruchez]: John: We don't need to have the common attribute on xf:input in order to have the binding attributes, right>
16:15:30 [ebruchez]: s/right>/right?
16:15:36 [ebruchez]: Steven: Correct.
16:16:34 [ebruchez]: John: Issue is that XHTML common is huge compared to that of XForms.
16:16:48 [ebruchez]: Steven: True unless you introduce the host language.
16:17:01 [ebruchez]: Steven: common is where the host language gets to add stuff.
16:17:16 [ebruchez]: Nick: I think we need to add common to all elements.
16:17:31 [ebruchez]: Steven: It has to be the XForms common.
16:18:49 [ebruchez]: John: How can we then add attributes in no namespace?
16:19:05 [ebruchez]: Steven: Doesn't everybody allow @class anyway?
16:19:17 [ebruchez]: John: Maybe because they don't perform runtime validation.
16:19:45 [ebruchez]: Steven: Attributes without a prefix are in no namespace.
16:20:18 [ebruchez]: Charlie: So we add common to our list of modules.
16:22:10 [ebruchez]: Erik: We already allow id on every element in the spec.
16:22:17 [Zakim]: -wellsk
16:22:18 [Zakim]: -Steven
16:22:18 [Zakim]: -Charlie
16:22:20 [Charlie]: Charlie has left #forms
16:22:25 [wellsk]: wellsk has left #forms
16:22:30 [Zakim]: -ebruchez
16:22:31 [Zakim]: -Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:22:32 [Zakim]: -John_Boyer
16:22:35 [Zakim]: -prb
16:22:37 [Zakim]: HTML_Forms()10:45AM has ended
16:22:38 [Zakim]: Attendees were Charlie, Nick_van_den_Bleeken, John_Boyer, wellsk, prb, ebruchez, Steven
16:22:46 [John_Boyer]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:46 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
16:22:50 [John_Boyer]: rrsagent, bye
16:22:50 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-forms-actions.rdf :
16:22:50 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Keith to find out whether latest code changes to Firefox XForms extension can be made public. [1]
16:22:50 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/13-forms-irc#T15-03-25
16:22:51 [Roger]: Roger has left #forms