14:49:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:49:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-rif-irc
14:49:19 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:49:19 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:38 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 12-Aug-08
14:49:45 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:50:43 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0019.html
14:51:06 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 12 Aug RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0019.html
14:51:25 <ChrisW> clear agenda
14:51:30 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:51:34 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:51:39 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action Review
14:51:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F11
14:51:47 <ChrisW> agenda+ Core
14:51:51 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test Cases
14:51:58 <ChrisW> agenda+ Peter's review
14:52:02 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:52:12 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
14:52:12 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
14:58:53 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
14:59:07 <ChrisWelty> ChrisWelty has joined #rif
14:59:24 <ChrisWelty> rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-rif-minutes.html ChrisWelty
15:00:34 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:01:01 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:05 <ChrisWelty> rrsagent, make logs public
15:01:08 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:01:16 <ChrisWelty> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:16 <Zakim> +ChrisWelty; got it
15:01:58 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:02:23 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:36 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:02:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:03:31 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
15:03:35 <ChrisWelty> are people having trouble with zakim?
15:03:39 <Zakim> +??P39
15:03:49 <Zakim> +AdrianP
15:03:52 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:03:56 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:03:56 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:00 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:04:00 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:04:41 <StellaMitchell> no problems with zakim for me
15:04:45 <ChrisWelty> harold, are you coming?
15:05:22 <Zakim> +josb
15:05:27 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:06:23 <ChrisWelty> zakim, pick a scribe
15:06:23 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeoraMorgenstern
15:06:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> Okay.
15:06:43 <ChrisWelty> Scribe: LeoraMorgenstern
15:06:53 <ChrisWelty> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/att-0012/2008-08-05-rif-minutes.html
15:06:57 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:07:05 <ChrisWelty> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of last week's telecon
15:07:12 <ChrisWelty> RESOLVED: Accept minutes of last week's telecon
15:07:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> next item admin
15:07:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> any agenda amendments?
15:07:30 <LeoraMorgenstern> none
15:07:31 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
15:07:31 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:07:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> (that's liaison)
15:07:51 <AdrianP> yes
15:07:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Health Care and Sciences will take up again in September?
15:08:05 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
15:08:11 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
15:08:11 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, ChrisWelty
15:08:12 <AdrianP> HCLS
15:08:16 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
15:08:16 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, ChrisWelty
15:08:20 <Zakim> +??P48
15:08:21 <ChrisWelty> zakim, close item 2
15:08:21 <Zakim> agendum 2, Liason, closed
15:08:22 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:23 <Zakim> 3. Action Review [from ChrisW]
15:08:25 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
15:08:25 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:36 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/Health Care and Sciences/HCLS
15:08:37 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-text/2008JulSep/0007.html ... yesterday's chat on rdf:text (former rif:text).
15:08:43 <Zakim> -??P48
15:08:45 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:08:46 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:08:54 <AxelPolleres> my actions: ACTION-551 is done, ACTION-552 is continued. 
15:08:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian had action on making PRD conditions equivalent to BLD conditions.
15:09:03 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:09:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: not finished
15:09:09 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:09:22 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:09:23 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:09:26 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:09:26 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:09:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> Also, Axel had an action to summarize open DTB issues.
15:09:36 <Zakim> +??P48
15:09:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: continued. But will be ready by next week
15:09:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel had action to remove section 4.3.5. Done.
15:10:15 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian, Stella (and Leora) had an action to discuss test cases.
15:10:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> That is pending discussion.
15:10:33 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
15:10:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> F2F11 is scheduled fro Sept. 26-27.
15:11:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> Participants or potential participants are encouraged to make reservations now.
15:11:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> You  need to get in early to get a relatively reasonable hotel rate.
15:12:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: recommendation of not-so-expensive hotel within walking distance
15:12:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: laughs
15:12:21 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: no IBM special rates for Manhattan
15:12:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: recommends Expedia
15:12:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: recommends looking in parts of Brooklyn close ot Manhattan and taking the subway.
15:13:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/close ot/close to/
15:13:03 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
15:13:03 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Core" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:31 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:13:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> Need to take phone call
15:13:53 <ChrisWelty> harold, can you scribe for a few minutes?
15:14:07 <Harold> Ok
15:14:12 <josb> no functions should mean no lists
15:14:23 <ChrisWelty> Scribe: Harold
15:14:49 <AxelPolleres> no functions in heads might be enough.
15:15:01 <josb> decidability of reasoning
15:15:10 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:15:26 <JeffP> (I am with Dave on phone)
15:15:33 <Harold> Dave: Separation External/Internal may be an issue for lists.
15:15:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> I'm back; I can scribe again.
15:15:49 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:16:03 <ChrisWelty> ack axel
15:16:14 <ChrisWelty> zakim, DaveReynolds contains JeffP
15:16:14 <Zakim> +JeffP; got it
15:16:18 <Harold> Scribe: Leora
15:16:35 <josb> why allow them at all?
15:16:56 <josb> q+
15:16:57 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
15:17:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris:  <missing a few moments of context> talking about a limited set of defined built-ins and no other user-defined functions
15:17:47 <AxelPolleres> safety (i.e. no free vars in heads) + safety of built-ins (i.e. no otherwise unbound variables in built-ins)
15:17:51 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:18:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos:  Axel was imposing certain restrictions on use of function symbols.
15:18:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: I see no reason for using function symbols except for external function symbols,
15:18:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: and restrictions are already defined here, so we have no problem with these.
15:18:53 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:19:02 <Harold> So, we have some design principles for Core: Decidability would be #1(no function symbols).
15:19:10 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:19:10 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:19:42 <AxelPolleres> jos... assume:
15:19:42 <AxelPolleres>  a(x) :- a(y), external( add(y,1,x) ).
15:19:43 <AxelPolleres>  a(1). 
15:19:52 <AxelPolleres> so, externals can also be problematic.
15:20:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: You could devise certain restrictions  (e.g., function symbols without variables) but I doubt they would be useful
15:20:28 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone
15:20:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', AdrianP
15:20:33 <AxelPolleres> right, that was why I suggestedt safety for head vars and vars in externals.
15:20:37 <AdrianP> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:20:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisWelty, Mike_Dean, LeoraMorgenstern, AxelPolleres, AdrianP (muted), StellaMitchell, josb, MichaelKifer (muted), Harold, DaveReynolds, Gary_Hallmark
15:20:41 <Zakim> DaveReynolds has JeffP
15:21:24 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:21:31 <ChrisWelty> ack josb
15:21:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: what more than Datalog would we want in the core?
15:21:56 <ChrisWelty> core: datalog + keep frame syntax
15:22:22 <josb> q+
15:22:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: we could allow unbound variable in body as long it doesn't occur in the recursion. 
15:22:40 <ChrisWelty> ack axel
15:22:57 <ChrisWelty> ack j
15:23:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: Rule A(x) will never terminate.
15:23:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: If you want any sort of safety, go for full-fledged safety.
15:23:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: was only referring to external predicates.
15:23:36 <AdrianP> same applies for tautologies - so we need the Datalog safeness condition
15:24:33 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/safety/safeness
15:24:51 <AxelPolleres> an extended notion of safeness for external preds would need binding patterns.
15:24:56 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: I don't see the need to go with binding patterns for core.
15:25:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: simplicity of implementation is one of the design requirements for core.
15:25:17 <AxelPolleres> standards safety for both heads and externals is fair enough for core for me.
15:25:28 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: But guarantee of termination is also crucial.
15:25:36 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:25:48 <AxelPolleres> jos' statement is not in conflict with chrisW's ...
15:25:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: Also, if there is a notion of safety, easier to implement..
15:26:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: I don't find simplicity of implementation to be correlated with decidability.
15:27:16 <JeffP> +1 on decidability on core
15:27:16 <AxelPolleres> yes. I'd even say, finite (minimal) models are a desideratum for core.
15:27:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: Certain algorithms are associated with guaranteed termination.
15:27:27 <josb> I prefer satisfiability for Core, but do not consider it a strong requirement
15:27:42 <ChrisWelty> ack dave
15:28:00 <Harold> q+
15:28:29 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:28:54 <ChrisWelty> ack h
15:29:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave: <missing>
15:29:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave: Feature of DTB that we have binding patterns there. (as summarized by Harold)
15:29:35 <ChrisWelty> ack a
15:30:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel, could you repeat that?
15:30:30 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
15:31:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: I f we say every variable occurring in external predicate needs to be bound in  non-external predicates, then we don't need binding patterns, because everything is bound.
15:31:20 <josb> What Axel describes is a notion of safeness
15:31:33 <josb> Binding patterns help in the definition of safeness
15:31:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: the idea of binding pattenrns is to loosen this restriction. If for example, we say we only need to bind two out of three variables.
15:32:08 <josb> it does
15:32:20 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: for Datalog, we don't have external predicates, so we would only have to say that variables appearing in predicates in the head also have to appear in the body.
15:32:53 <josb> q+
15:33:04 <Harold> Paraphrasing Axel, safeness can be seen as an overarching "binding principle", so no syntactic "binding patterns" would be needed.
15:33:23 <AxelPolleres> dave, that would allow exactly the example I wrote above...
15:34:25 <AdrianP> typically mode declarations are used to define such kinds of binding patterns, e.g. add(+,+,?) would mean first argument is bound input, second one too, third one can be output or input, i.e. free or bound
15:34:52 <ChrisWelty> ack j
15:35:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: I don't think Axel's  strict defintion of safeness is useful.
15:35:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: Definition should take external predicates into account.
15:35:29 <AxelPolleres> not in the standard datalog sense...
15:35:32 <Harold> In LP, "binding patterns" were often called "mode declarations". Introducing explicit "mode declarations" syntax for Core would be problematic: An extralogical feature that we may not want througout all RIF dialects (e.g. in BLD).
15:35:37 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
15:35:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: More precisely, one uses external predicates to define safeness.
15:36:34 <DaveReynolds> Harold: not proposing mode declarations could be part of user rules, just defined in the spec as restrictions on using of DTB fns/preds
15:36:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos, could you repeat that?
15:36:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: <missing something>
15:36:59 <AxelPolleres> the thing is that a binding pattern for my example, alone would not "save" you... the extension of a() would still be infinite.
15:37:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Youre' talking about having a mechanism to specify whether a variable needs to be free or bound?
15:37:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: I don't think we need anything more.
15:37:29 <AxelPolleres> i.e. either you take safety in the strict sense OR you take binding patterns plus safe recursion.
15:37:44 <DaveReynolds> Axel: agreed
15:37:46 <AxelPolleres> jos, do you agree?
15:37:56 <AdrianP> not all Datalog engines support binding patterns / mode declarations
15:38:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: do people agree with Jos? (No, seems, that Axel doesn't.)
15:38:30 <Harold> Dave, Yes, that's fine.
15:39:24 <LeoraMorgenstern> Axel: either take strict safety or restrictions on bindings in recursion.
15:39:37 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:40:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: yes, Datalog and the addition of external predicates does complicate things.
15:41:19 <AdrianP> Datalog semantics for hybrid Ontology - rule systems have been defined, it is the same problem
15:41:39 <ChrisWelty> Core as datalog + a limited set of datatypes & builtins
15:41:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> David: <again, having trouble hearing him>
15:42:57 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: We need to make sure Core has certain attributes--- e.g.,  decidability, ease of implementation
15:43:06 <ChrisWelty> Core should be easy to implement, decidable?, tractable?, extendable to BLD & PRD
15:43:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: We need to keep PRD in mind --- what do we bring from PRD to core?
15:43:14 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:43:14 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:43:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: E.g., Christian's notion of negation?
15:43:38 <Harold> Yes.
15:44:13 <Harold> Because we might adapt FLD's/BLD's negations for that.
15:44:23 <LeoraMorgenstern>  Adrian: And also Assert action
15:44:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Gary: same as frame formula or term in PRD
15:45:02 <Harold> We have called Assert-only PRD "Pur Production Rules".
15:45:17 <AxelPolleres> note that Datalog  safety does not extend straightforwardly to allowing discjunction in the body, but we excluded that already, right?
15:45:20 <AdrianP> the semantics of the head in core for PRD would then be an assert
15:45:21 <Harold> s/Pur Production Rules/Pure Production Rules/
15:45:38 <josb> right
15:45:42 <DaveReynolds> Axel: right, I think we agreed to exclude that last week
15:45:50 <AdrianP> yes, pure production rules without negation would be Core (from the PRD perspective)
15:46:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: someone has to step up to take on the job of writing this all up.
15:46:06 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:46:06 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:46:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Looking for volunteers.
15:46:16 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:46:16 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:46:21 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:46:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold: Will work on this from the BLD point of view. Perhaps some PRD people will join. And perhaps Dave?
15:46:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> And Axel and Adrian also.
15:47:12 <AdrianP> I would join from the PRD perspective, since I will work on the conditions of PRD anyway
15:47:12 <AxelPolleres> q-
15:47:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Harold, can you start the wiki page for the core document?
15:47:17 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:47:17 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:47:19 <ChrisWelty> action: harold to start a core draft wiki page
15:47:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-556 - Start a core draft wiki page [on Harold Boley - due 2008-08-19].
15:47:26 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
15:47:26 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:47:37 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:47:37 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:47:57 <ChrisWelty> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test
15:48:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: <overview of intiial Test document>
15:48:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: This is the document that we're writing for test documents
15:48:40 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/TCS
15:48:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: There's also another document (the TCS doc) intended for discussion)
15:48:53 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:49:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Test document will be the official working draft for test cases
15:49:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: TCS doc is intended for discussion of questions and issues.
15:49:59 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Stella proposed we first discuss purpose of test suite.
15:50:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Do we want to define test suite for conformance?
15:50:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Or do we want to just give examples for test cases?
15:51:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Or will there also be test cases for validating implementation?
15:51:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: two parts: 1. Define test  suite (for BLD, PRD, built ins for DTB)
15:52:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> and could be informative or conformant.
15:52:09 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:52:41 <LeoraMorgenstern> 2. Also might give concrete xml syntax for specifying test cases.
15:53:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Why not just specify test cases in xml of dialect?
15:53:30 <Harold> Adrian, does your "test theory" already distinguish consumers and producers? http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Conformance_Clauses
15:53:42 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Perhaps current dialects might not be expressive enough for some tests.
15:54:01 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: encourage to start small, and focus on test cases for BLD. and soon, PRD.
15:54:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: but would be hesitant to start inventing a new dialect.
15:54:52 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Be careful with test cases for PRD, because it's evolving so quickly. Wait till it's stable. BLD, on the other hand, is stable.
15:55:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: And it's critical for next step of BLD --- a call for implementation --- 
15:55:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: that there are test cases.
15:55:17 <ChrisWelty> ack d
15:55:39 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave:<answered some of these questions in his email>
15:56:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave: Should be neither conformance suite nor informative, but normative
15:56:44 <Harold> Dave, using finitely many tests, you can anyway only disprove conformance, not prove it.
15:57:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: We're not imagining a test suite is exhaustive in terms of the dialect.
15:57:18 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Being able to run the test suite does not guarantee full compliance; not sure it's possible to have such a test suite.
15:57:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Another question: which kind of test cases?
15:57:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: initial categorization in test case document
15:57:57 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test
15:58:09 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:59:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: why have different categories?
15:59:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: to distinguish different test suites
15:59:27 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: also may facilitate collection process from community
15:59:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: 
15:59:47 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: don't really see point of classification system prior to the tests.
16:00:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: why not come up with test cases first?
16:00:22 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: tests may wind up in multiple categories
16:00:45 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: first get tests, then see if some natural ordering comes from them.
16:01:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: what are some of the important features of BLD to test? Important to have test cases of classifcation, of forms, of external functions, etc.
16:01:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Work toward more explicit test cases.
16:01:31 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:01:31 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:01:41 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
16:01:44 <ChrisWelty> ack d
16:01:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave: main thing are validation tests, entailment tests, etc.
16:02:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave: best to concentrate on these
16:02:15 <ChrisWelty> ack l
16:02:41 <AdrianP> some test cases are here http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
16:04:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: I gave a RIF presentation 2 weeks ago; first question was: do you have any examples; and I suspect that's going to be true for anyone who gives a presentation on RIF.
16:05:13 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Since there are lots of people who learn from examples, not from reading documents.
16:05:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Jeff, you expressed interest in submitting some examples. Would you still like to do this?
16:06:10 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jeff: Yes, I have a colleague of mine just joined the WG and will be doing this.
16:06:36 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
16:06:36 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
16:07:08 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
16:07:08 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
16:07:08 <LeoraMorgenstern> chris: I can officiall assign the action to him when he officially joins the WG and is on a telecon.
16:07:32 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Anyone else who has even the simplest examples around should submit them.
16:07:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: Should we have an open call for test cases?
16:08:12 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: <open within the WG>
16:08:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: We do have that: we have the wiki and a wiki template for writing test cases.
16:08:40 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: What's the process for someone to create a new test case?
16:09:00 <LeoraMorgenstern> Adrian: For category page for test cases, there is a template for creating test cases; template is shown on bottom of page.
16:10:14 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: would be better to just click on a button and get a template.  
16:11:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: <general  instructions for creating wiki pages>
16:11:12 <ChrisWelty> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test_Case_Example
16:11:26 <ChrisWelty> action: Chris to make WG call for use cases
16:11:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-557 - Make WG call for use cases [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-08-19].
16:11:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: I will make a call for the working group to submit test cases.
16:11:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
16:11:44 <ChrisWelty> ack l
16:15:43 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test_Case_Format
16:16:11 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
16:16:11 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Peter's review" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:16:18 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
16:16:18 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
16:16:30 <ChrisWelty> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2008Aug/0000.html
16:16:38 <LeoraMorgenstern> <Adrian's posting this link followed some discussion on test case format, need to specify what it means to pass a test, etc.>
16:16:48 <ChrisWelty> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_PPS4
16:17:55 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Peter Patel-Schneider wrote a critique of BLD; seems to be a lot of confusion over terminology.
16:18:04 <ChrisWelty> action: debruij2 to draft initial response to PFPS4
16:18:04 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - debruij2
16:18:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: Jos, would you take an action to respond?
16:18:07 <LeoraMorgenstern> Jos: yes.
16:18:16 <ChrisWelty> action: jos to bla
16:18:16 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
16:18:16 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
16:18:25 <ChrisWelty> action: jdebrui2 to draft initial response to PFPS4
16:18:25 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - jdebrui2
16:18:32 <ChrisWelty> action: jdebruij2 to draft initial response to PFPS4
16:18:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-558 - Draft initial response to PFPS4 [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-08-19].
16:18:46 <ChrisWelty> zakim, next item
16:18:46 <Zakim> agendum 8. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:18:54 <ChrisWelty> zakim, list agenda
16:18:54 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:18:55 <Zakim> 8. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:19:16 <Zakim> -Harold
16:19:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> Chris: proposal to adjourn
16:19:18 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:19:20 <ChrisWelty> zakim, list attendees
16:19:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisWelty, Mike_Dean, LeoraMorgenstern, AxelPolleres, AdrianP, StellaMitchell, josb, MichaelKifer, Harold, Gary_Hallmark, JeffP
16:19:23 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:19:25 <Zakim> -AdrianP
16:19:28 <Zakim> -josb
16:19:29 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:19:32 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:19:39 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:19:44 <ChrisWelty> Regrets: Sandro Hawke MohamedZergaoui
16:19:50 <ChrisWelty> rrsagent, make minutes
16:19:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-rif-minutes.html ChrisWelty
16:23:10 <Zakim> -ChrisWelty
16:23:12 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:23:13 <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisWelty, Mike_Dean, LeoraMorgenstern, AxelPolleres, AdrianP, StellaMitchell, josb, MichaelKifer, Harold, Gary_Hallmark, JeffP
17:44:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
17:44:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/12-rif-irc