17:46:40 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:46:40 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc 17:46:54 zakim, this will be wai_u 17:46:54 ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 17:47:06 rrsagent, set logs public 17:48:28 Meeting: UA Telecon 17:48:40 Chair: Jim Allan 17:49:12 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0069.html 17:49:48 Regrets: Alan Cantor, Jeanne Spellman 17:53:15 regrets+ Kelly_Ford 17:57:59 sharper has joined #ua 17:59:47 judy has joined #ua 18:00:10 Jan has joined #ua 18:00:43 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started 18:00:50 +??P3 18:01:00 zakim, ??P3 is really Jan 18:01:00 +Jan; got it 18:01:35 +??P5 18:01:56 + +1.512.206.aaaa 18:02:00 - +1.512.206.aaaa 18:02:02 zakim, ??P5 is really sharper 18:02:02 +sharper; got it 18:02:25 + +1.512.206.aabb 18:02:59 zakim, +1.512.206.aabb is really AllanJ 18:02:59 +AllanJ; got it 18:04:56 zakim, code? 18:04:56 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), judy 18:05:04 +Judy 18:05:35 zakim, who's here? 18:05:35 On the phone I see Jan, sharper, AllanJ, Judy 18:05:36 On IRC I see Jan, judy, sharper, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ 18:05:38 regrets+ Mark_Hakkenin 18:06:01 +Cantor 18:06:34 regrets+ GJR 18:06:47 regrets- Alan 18:07:08 Scribe: Jan 18:08:30 scribe: Jim 18:08:42 scribe: AllanJ 18:09:06 topic: AU thinking on application guidelines 18:09:15 http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2008/WD-ATAG20-20080801/WD-ATAG20-20080801.html 18:09:43 JR: Above is editors draft from F2F in Redmond 18:10:01 ... AU given up on benchmark claim. 18:10:23 ... important to UAWG is application accessibility guidelines. 18:10:51 ... ATAG felt application accessibilty was over kill 18:11:30 ... already saying follow platform conventions which is a bit loose 18:12:01 ... want to say the same thing about accessibility of software 18:12:24 q+ 18:12:32 .... could not put out software accessibilty guidelines that are parallel or equivalent to ISO 18:13:07 ... now say - follow accessibility guidelines for your platform 18:13:39 Judy: long history with accessibility of software 18:13:45 ... want to check on 18:14:16 ... clear requirement to meet ATAG must meet ISO spec 18:14:39 ... ATAG has specifics to authoring tool, not covered in ISO 18:15:39 JR: yes, ATAG will have guidelines for specific authoring tool application interface accessibility 18:16:26 Judy: how does this relate to UAAG 18:17:08 JR: need a review of UAAG guidelines to remove 'generic' ATAG items that were added in recent drafts. 18:17:26 Judy: any comments, concerns. 18:17:54 Shaper and Alan: need to review both documents 18:18:31 JR: Part A of ATAG, sccessibilty of authoring tool to the user with disabilities 18:18:36 ... reviews structure 18:20:41 JA: Only concern is haven't looked at ISO 18:20:44 JR: ATAG simplification, UI vs content issues have lessened 18:21:03 JR: ATAG kept somethings to do with keyboard 18:21:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2008/WD-ATAG20-20080801/WD-ATAG20-20080801.html#principle-operable 18:22:21 JR: specific keyboard accessibility guidelines will stay in ATAG 18:23:06 Judy: concerns - ATAG changes sounds straight forward, but is complex 18:23:58 ... perhaps need an action in UAAG to review items. 18:24:52 Judy: ISO cost concerns 18:25:39 JR: no normative reference to ISO, up to conformant to choose software accessibility guidelines 18:27:01 JR: explaining rationale 18:28:12 Judy: many standards are in flux. current 508 does not have coverage that UAAG10 has. Users and developers have complained about 508 18:28:41 ... 508 Update still 2 years out. not nearly finished. 18:28:59 ... ISO much more robust. 18:30:00 ... perhaps table for a few weeks. Action to watch what happens with ATAG and ISO. 18:30:26 ... Need a specific and relevant and free standard to reference 18:30:43 ... No other spec has gotten keyboard right. 18:31:48 JR: agree 18:32:07 Judy: thanks Jan for bringing up 18:32:55 JR: ATAG will point to WCAG for web-based interface, will always need desktop interface and mobile interface 18:35:10 s/complained about 508/complained about insufficient coverage of browser-specific UI coverage in the current 508 18:36:53 Action: http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=30858 18:37:42 http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=39080 18:37:54 ISO/TS 16071:2003 18:38:02 Judy: (had also said, above) Another major concern is that we apparently do not yet have any guarantee that the ISO spec (ISO 16701 ergonomics of human system interaction: guidance on software accessibility) will indeed become freely available; and until it does, any discussion to consider dropping certain parts of our work here would be premature 18:38:28 Ergonomics of human-system interaction -- Part 171: Guidance on software accessibility 18:39:34 Action: Jan to monitor ATAG development as the relate to software accessibility 18:39:35 Judy: Also I had raised a concern that pointing for conformance purposes to non-specific guidance elsewhere may be insufficient; it should be specific. 18:39:40 Action: JR monitor whether ISO9241-171:2008 will be released freely 18:40:01 Scribe: Jan 18:40:41 Topic: Proposal for placement of keyboard items 18:40:57 JA: My proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0050.html 18:41:13 JA: Simon's comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0059.html 18:42:05 JA: Proposing new guideline 3.11.7 18:42:45 JR: There is a problem, difficult concept for people to understand 18:44:08 JB: To begin with I don't think things should be written parenthetically 18:45:50 JB: Not right - we were talking about mode 18:46:02 JB: We would not be indicating how to do it 18:46:28 AC: Is this referring to Ctrl+S and S underlined 18:46:32 JA: Yes 18:47:17 rewrite without parentheticals: Any currently visible UI operable controls that have direct UI keyboard commands have their keyboard commands visually displayed in context 18:47:33 AC: Very different things...first is way to quickly do task without menu and other second provides way for quickly navigating menu 18:47:54 JB: Think a lot of times those overlap 18:48:11 JB: Also looking at 2...are these so different 18:48:29 AC: See reason for seperating them...especially with accelerator keys 18:49:07 AC: When two keys have same accelerator, pressing key bounces between them...in dialog only one works 18:49:21 AC: Two totally different functions 18:49:46 JR: agree, 18:51:02 ... the reason is begins with "Any currently visible UI operable controls" is because you can't provide direct UI commands because they are not visible 18:51:08 SH: Is this like 3.6.1? 18:51:25 SH: Seems like we are trying to highlight 18:52:00 JR: Yes it's highlighting plus letting user know what keystrokes are 18:52:21 in UAAG20 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/ 18:52:46 3.6.1 Highlighted items: The user has the option to highlight the following classes of information: @@10.2 in UAAG10@@ 18:52:48 (a) selection, 18:52:49 (b) content focus, 18:52:51 (c) recognized enabled elements, and 18:52:53 (d) recently visited links.@@Remove since so common?@@ 18:53:01 SH: This highlights your options... 18:53:21 JB: Do we define highlight? 18:53:30 JA: Defined 18:53:38 In this document, "to highlight" means to emphasize through the user interface. For example, user agents highlight which content is selected or focused. Graphical highlight mechanisms include dotted boxes, underlining, and reverse video. Synthesized speech highlight mechanisms include alterations of voice pitch and volume ("speech prosody"). 18:54:35 JR: Warning about 3.6.1 is in content, the req. in question is chrome and uses OS 18:54:54 SH: Think highlighting works...doesn't require it to be visual 18:55:11 AC: Confusion...some people call selection highlighting 18:55:24 JB: Prob we would be getting into confusions 18:55:58 JA: So I'm hearing not 3.11, not 3.6 18:56:11 JB: Have we determined for sure 18:56:31 JB: Can see what you're saying, but 3.6 feels right 18:57:04 oops that was SH 18:57:21 JA: Originally thought it didn't fit in 4...but maybe it does 18:57:48 JA: Perceivable vs operable 18:58:17 JB: "Guideline 4.1 Ensure full keyboard access" is obvious 18:58:26 SH: Pref 3.6 18:58:49 SH: Seems to me that we want to let people know they can make selection 18:59:02 JA: Think back to using the Mac 18:59:15 JA: Prob wasn't use it was perception 18:59:33 JB: Was a combination of several things... 19:00:16 JB: Came down to I couldn't use keyboard 19:00:36 JB: Phrasing of perceivable... 19:00:49 Make sure the user interface perceivable 19:01:26 Judy: this bridges both perceivable and operable. 19:02:00 JR: tried to make it thematic - keyboard operation (you must perceive and operate) 19:02:03 JR: Perceivalbe operabl hard to cut apart - Keyboard is thematic 19:02:28 JB: Want things together because how it affects developers getting lost 19:03:15 SH: I'm not UI developer directly but would suggest we need to bring enough stuff to perceivable to have a keyboard section in perceivable 19:03:44 JB: If we look at other things under 3.... 19:04:27 JB: Sorry but this keyboard requirement doesn't seem to fit...better in 4 19:05:18 JB: Straw poll... 19:05:29 SH: OK either way but pref perceivable 19:05:59 AC: Can easily go into either 19:06:30 JR: Can see SH's point but would pref it stay in 4 for now 19:06:39 JA: Really makes sense for it to be in 4 19:07:17 SH: OK with that if we can get the terminology polished up 19:07:35 SH: terminology->phraseoology 19:08:13 Resolve: Keep req. on showing shortcuts in 4.1 19:09:05 Topic: User configuration has an option to display keyboard shortcuts for all visible controls 19:11:24 JR: How is this diff from the first...is this content and that was chrome? 19:11:31 AC: Sounds like content 19:12:14 AC: Maybe could apply to both chrome and content 19:12:40 AC: What's usually missing now iare theshortcuts in web apps 19:12:52 AC: Would would an option to display mean? 19:13:53 JR: when I wrote this. It does not describe how things work now. It does not depend on tooltips. 19:14:05 ... there are no conventions for this at the momement 19:15:24 AC: Important point to get this in 19:18:15 AC: Would it be ok if tool/balloon tips came up as user tabbed around theui 19:18:46 AC: Other way is what JR suggests with overlay of controls in a particular mode 19:19:13 JB: THink that would be incredibly distracting 19:19:28 JB: Sometimes other keystroke to make that go away 19:20:04 JB: Type of solution for some things...underlined letters in menu... 19:20:16 JB: Beauty of that is less dynamic etc 19:20:23 AC: So a separate list? 19:21:01 JB: This re: embedded content 19:21:14 AC: Would be very nice eg. on embedded media player 19:21:30 JB: So why can't reuse same mechanism as for chrome UI? 19:21:41 AC: Different mechanism 19:21:55 JB: Does appear as icons etc 19:22:11 JB: So presents problem.. 19:23:13 AC: This is adding something brand new 19:23:18 JR: Excatly 19:24:04 JB: But we shouldn't ask something special of embedded apps 19:24:34 JB: So requirement should only be easily discover... 19:24:48 JA: I've been looking at this... 19:25:02 JA: In first one...UI controls need shortcuts and underlines 19:25:24 JA: 4. is for the content 19:25:52 JA: 2 is just ability to turn them off 19:26:44 JR: We should remove the one that is just an option 19:29:59 Judy: combine UI and content and configuration 19:30:32 JR: Everybody does UI, but content visibilty is new. should be separate 19:30:47 Judy: can live with it. 19:32:46 AC: Brings up example of Web app that takes ctrl commands 19:32:53 JA: That sounds like AJAX 19:33:34 JB: Hope we made progress today...let's pick up again next week 19:33:51 JB: THanks all 19:33:53 Action: Jallan to combine 1&2 and 2&4 19:34:46 -Cantor 19:34:47 -Jan 19:34:47 -sharper 19:53:14 -Judy 19:53:16 -AllanJ 19:53:16 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended 19:53:17 Attendees were Jan, +1.512.206.aaaa, sharper, AllanJ, Judy, Cantor 19:53:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:53:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-minutes.html Jan 19:54:00 RRSAgent, set logs public 19:54:05 Zakim, bye 19:54:05 Zakim has left #ua 19:54:11 RRSAgent, bye 19:54:11 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-actions.rdf : 19:54:11 ACTION: http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=30858 [1] 19:54:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc#T18-36-53 19:54:11 ACTION: Jan to monitor ATAG development as the relate to software accessibility [2] 19:54:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc#T18-39-34 19:54:11 ACTION: JR monitor whether ISO9241-171:2008 will be released freely [3] 19:54:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc#T18-39-40 19:54:11 ACTION: Jallan to combine 1&2 and 2&4 [4] 19:54:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/07-ua-irc#T19-33-53