13:43:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:43:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-irc
13:43:56 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
13:43:56 <Zakim> sorry, kaz, I don't know what conference this is
13:44:10 <kaz> zakim, this will be XHTML
13:44:10 <Zakim> ok, kaz; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
13:44:12 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
13:44:12 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
13:44:12 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
13:44:14 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
13:44:24 <rmerric> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0004.html
13:44:54 <rmerric> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
13:44:56 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa
13:45:13 <Roland> Roland has joined #xhtml
13:45:28 <Roland> Chair: Roland
13:45:37 <Tina> Zakim: +04670855aaaa is Tina
13:45:40 <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu 
13:45:40 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
13:45:42 <Zakim> +Shepazu
13:46:12 <Zakim> +Roland
13:46:34 <Roland> rrsagent, make minutes
13:46:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-minutes.html Roland
13:46:40 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:46:42 <Roland> rrsagent, make log public
13:46:49 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
13:47:02 <Zakim> +ShaneM
13:47:08 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:47:47 <Zakim> +??P4
13:47:56 <alessio> zakim, ??P4 is Alessio
13:47:56 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
13:48:14 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #xhtml
13:48:28 <Steven_> zakim, who is here?
13:48:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kazuyuki, +04670855aaaa, Shepazu, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio
13:48:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven_, ShaneM, alessio, Roland, RRSAgent, Zakim, kaz, oedipus, shepazu, Tina, Steven, Lachy
13:48:39 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617
13:48:39 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made
13:48:41 <Zakim> +Steven
13:49:51 <Steven_> scribe: Steven
13:49:58 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
13:49:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_
13:50:40 <Steven_> Roland: My regrets for the next 4 weeks
13:50:50 <Steven_> Topic: DOM 3 Events and XML Events 2
13:51:04 <Steven_> Roland: We want them to align
13:51:19 <Steven_> ... Doug can you update us on DOM 3 Events?
13:51:26 <cbottoml> cbottoml has joined #xhtml
13:51:40 <Steven_> Doug: Having reviewed XML Events 2, I didn't see any incompatibilities
13:51:52 <Steven_> ... but it is good to coordinate
13:52:01 <Steven_> ... we have changed mutation events a bit
13:52:25 <Steven_> ... Mozilla are not going to implement certain mutation events
13:52:42 <Steven_> ... so there is no consensus on them
13:53:00 <oedipus> q+ to say that he has a question to pose on behalf of the PFWG on the @order attribute as long as shepazu is here
13:53:13 <Steven_> Roland: We have no dependencies on the mutation events, but what is the problem?
13:53:24 <Steven_> Doug: I'm sorry, I don't have that to hand
13:54:04 <Steven_> ... but it is something that requires a significant change, and performance hit for browsers
13:54:12 <Steven_> Roland: Are these new events?
13:54:25 <Steven_> Doug: No, also in DOM 2, so we may be deprecating them
13:54:27 <oedipus> q-
13:54:52 <Steven_> ... SVG Tiny has a problem with them too
13:55:01 <Steven_> ... because of performance hit
13:55:11 <Lachy> Lachy has left #xhtml
13:55:27 <Steven_> ... so there is a challenge of finding something that has consensus
13:55:41 <Steven_> Doug: We are also planning on defining event ordering
13:55:41 <oedipus> q+ to say question from PFWG - "Does mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order OK, or does it pose problems, and if so what problems?" (i am supposed to be asking this as a "babe in the woods" and not a member of XHTML2 WG
13:56:06 <Steven_> Doug: Also changing the key identifiers
13:56:23 <Steven_> ... a better model for providing values for key identifiers
13:56:40 <Steven_> ... also an order for event firing
13:56:59 <Steven_> ... but I saw no clash iwth XML Events 2
13:57:50 <Steven_> Steven: XML Events is just a syntactic binding to DOM Events, so it would be bad if there was a clash
13:58:06 <Steven_> Roland: Have you dealt with the I18N problems with key events?
13:58:31 <Steven_> Doug: We are working on it
13:58:41 <ShaneM> q+ to discussion how this might effect the XHTML Access module
13:59:05 <Steven_> ... including the issues of shifting characters
13:59:10 <Steven_> ... to upper case
13:59:36 <Steven_> Doug: I do have a couple of minor comments on XML Events 2; I will send them in
14:00:02 <Steven_> Roland: We want to go to last call really soon; what is the status of DOM 3 Events?
14:00:08 <Steven_> Doug: Q1 for CR
14:00:29 <Steven_> ... I wouldn't make a dependency on DOM 3
14:00:37 <Steven_> Roland: Well, we want namespaced events
14:01:10 <Steven_> Doug: The WHAT WG are trying to get me to remove namespaced events
14:01:31 <Steven_> ... but that hasn't happened
14:01:53 <Steven_> Shane: I think it should be changed from QNames to CURIEs
14:01:57 <Steven_> q+
14:02:21 <Steven_> Doug: Unlikely
14:03:29 <oedipus> SP: independent of qnames and curies - Dom3 uses event space and event name - 2 are never combined into URI as such; up to syntax, not Dom3 - would be surprised if you have to mention curies; whichever you use, they will work identically
14:03:41 <Steven_> Shane: I disagree
14:04:09 <Steven_> ... at processing level it is a URI
14:04:38 <oedipus> SP: never combined into single URI - always separate - qnames better solution
14:05:01 <Steven_> Steven: But you have a namespace, and an event name; they never get combined into a URI, so QNames are a better choice if you have to use them at all
14:05:18 <Steven_> Doug: There are a couple of non-namespaced events
14:05:35 <Steven_> q-
14:05:54 <Steven_> s/non-/new non-/
14:06:07 <Steven_> Doug: We want to go to CR at latest Q1 2009
14:07:25 <Steven_> ... so where is your implementer base?
14:07:36 <Steven_> Steven: XForms would where we expect them to come first
14:08:03 <oedipus> SP: use case for "while" being able to delete all elements in a tree that match a certain condition
14:08:12 <Steven_> Doug: Where is the use case for your while= in XML Events 2?
14:08:19 <oedipus> zakim, who is making noise?
14:08:27 <Steven_> Steven: Being able to delete all noeds that match a certain condition
14:08:30 <Zakim> oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +04670855aaaa (13%), Alessio (94%), Shepazu (69%)
14:08:46 <Steven_> zakim, mute alessio
14:08:46 <Zakim> Alessio should now be muted
14:09:24 <Zakim> + +1.914.255.aabb
14:09:49 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080620/#section-listener-element
14:10:00 <Steven_> Doug: We are trying to make the target phase more visible
14:10:35 <Steven_> Roland: The default phase is for compatibility with the old version
14:11:17 <oedipus> zakim, aaaa is Tina_Holcombe
14:11:17 <Zakim> +Tina_Holcombe; got it
14:11:59 <oedipus> zakim, Tina_Holcombe is Tina_Holmboe
14:11:59 <Zakim> +Tina_Holmboe; got it
14:13:50 <alessio> zakim, unmute me
14:13:50 <Zakim> Alessio should no longer be muted
14:13:58 <Steven_> Doug: The reasons for the handlers wasn't clear
14:14:24 <Steven_> Steven: To allow people to be able to use something already defined wihtout having to invent it themselves (as with XML Events 1)
14:14:26 <oedipus> XML2 Events will eventual break out into Handler, Listener, and Script module
14:14:32 <oedipus> ack me
14:14:32 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say question from PFWG - "Does mixing roles and ids with targetrole and targetid for @order OK, or does it pose problems, and if so what problems?" (i am
14:14:35 <Zakim> ... supposed to be asking this as a "babe in the woods" and not a member of XHTML2 WG
14:15:16 <Steven_> Gregory: About access key; is there a problem with roles and ids?
14:15:55 <Steven_> ... I think the current solution is a good one, but we want confirmation
14:16:12 <Steven_> Doug: I don;t see where it would cause a problem
14:16:17 <Steven_> s/;/'/
14:16:40 <Steven_> Shane: You can only have one or the other, not both
14:16:53 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
14:16:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_
14:17:10 <Steven_> Doug: Well, one is ignored if you have both
14:17:14 <Steven_> Shane: Right
14:17:27 <ShaneM> targetrole is ignored if both are specified.
14:17:59 <Steven_> Gregory: Thanks, I'm glad we agree
14:19:58 <Steven_> Greg: With @order, we want people to be able to go through primary content, and then secondary content and so on.
14:20:13 <Steven_> Shane: And where do you start?
14:20:27 <Steven_> Doug: Document order from the current focus
14:20:38 <Steven_> Shane: Doesn't that clash with @order
14:20:44 <Steven_> s/order/order?/
14:20:54 <Steven_> Doug: I need to think about that
14:22:02 <Steven_> ... if I want to tab from my current focus,
14:22:25 <Steven_> ... then without @order then the next in document order is selected
14:22:39 <Steven_> ... with @order, then it goes to the first in the list
14:23:33 <oedipus> SP: stateless - regardless of current state, defaults back to same?
14:23:45 <oedipus> SP: if in a b carry on going to other bs
14:24:30 <oedipus> SM: possible to make stateless if defined "if no item that would be selected has focus currently, start with first one in document order, otherwise find next one in navigation order
14:24:47 <Steven_> Doug: This allows for a richer way to navigate
14:24:55 <oedipus> DS: jump to Bs with mouse, when in there, can keyboard navigate the Bs
14:24:59 <Steven_> ... jump to the Bs and then navigate around them
14:25:26 <Steven_> Shane: Also solves the problem of what happens with a DOM mutation
14:25:38 <Steven_> Steven: Absolutely
14:25:45 <Steven_> Shane: I will write this up
14:25:57 <Steven_> ... I am editing the document now
14:26:21 <Steven_> Roland: When will you publish your next draft, and what stage will it be at?
14:26:26 <Steven_> Doug: It will be a WD
14:26:33 <Steven_> ... in a month or so
14:26:46 <Steven_> ... we are working on SVG at the moment
14:26:57 <Steven_> ... so I don;t think I can do it this month
14:27:03 <Steven_> s/;/'/
14:27:39 <Steven_> ... and there are still some unsolved problems
14:27:54 <Steven_> Roland: Thanks, we will keep in touch
14:27:55 <oedipus> thank you very much, shepazu
14:28:11 <Steven_> Doug: One other thing
14:28:55 <Steven_> ... no, I'll send it by email
14:29:02 <Steven_> [Doug leaves]
14:29:02 <Zakim> - +1.914.255.aabb
14:29:08 <Zakim> -Shepazu
14:29:18 <oedipus> zakim, aabb is Doug_Schepers
14:29:18 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
14:29:33 <Steven_> Topic: M12N
14:30:01 <Steven_> Roland: Any news?
14:30:52 <Steven_> Steven: I haven't scratched the surface of my email since I got back last night. I'll keep you in touch
14:31:21 <Steven_> Topic: Access
14:31:23 <Roland_> Roland_ has joined #xhtml
14:31:30 <Steven_> Shane: I looked at the comments
14:31:50 <Steven_> ... related to the DOM 3 Events issues
14:32:08 <oedipus> i18n comments start at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0006.html
14:32:28 <Steven_> ... the issue is that @key is inadequate
14:32:33 <oedipus> key attribute inadequate: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0007.html
14:32:53 <Steven_> ... and I'm not sure that there is a right answer. We took it over from HTML4
14:32:58 <oedipus> "The term 'access key' seems to be used to refer to the value of the key attribute in one part of this section, and to a key on a physical keyboard in other places."
14:33:20 <Steven_> Roland: We should work on a way to deal on the problem
14:33:27 <Steven_> s/ on / with /
14:33:35 <shepazu> I also raised a similar point, and I think you should use the keyIdentifier
14:33:51 <Steven_> Shane: I'm not sure there is a solution
14:34:02 <oedipus> PF's Proposed Requirements for Access/Accesskey in HTML5: http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements
14:34:31 <oedipus> SP: what do people do in japan with keyboard shortcuts? idea is use a key that matches a character
14:34:31 <Steven_> Roland: Multiple key depressions in Japanese
14:34:47 <oedipus> RM: keys don't generate kanji characters - part of character
14:35:12 <Steven_> Kaz: We use ascii characters for shortcuts
14:35:46 <Steven_> Shane: There are also some editorial comments
14:35:50 <oedipus> "It isn't clear that this section has taken into account the potential difference between key codes and the characters that may result from a key press on a given keyboard. It seems to assume that the character on a key cap == the key code identifier == the character produced by pressing that key == the character that is the value of the key attribute." - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0008.html
14:36:29 <Steven_> Shane: I still need to work on the policy of evolution of modules
14:37:22 <kaz> input "nihon" -(Imput Method software converts it to)-> "日本"
14:37:49 <oedipus> thought we agreed to 3 modules from Events: Handler, Listener, and Script
14:38:16 <Steven_> Topic: CURIEs
14:38:33 <Steven_> Roland: We had an email from Noah
14:38:57 <Steven_> Steven : I see that the TAG can't respond on our timescale
14:39:34 <Steven_> Shane: Didn't we ask for last call comments in May?
14:39:57 <Steven_> ... I think we should extend our timeline to accomodate them
14:40:05 <Steven_> ... even though we asked 5th May originally
14:40:34 <Steven_> Shane: The TAG wasn't on our original list
14:40:50 <Steven_> Steven: No, we didn't thinkl CURIEs had architectural ramifications
14:40:59 <Steven_> s/thinkl/think/
14:41:08 <Steven_> Shane: But we should wait
14:41:24 <Steven_> Steven: Agreed
14:41:30 <alessio> +1
14:42:20 <Steven_> Steven: Their FtF is September, ours October, so we can accomodate them with no pain
14:42:32 <oedipus> plus 1
14:42:41 <Steven_> Topic: AOB
14:43:05 <Steven_> Steven: You're away for 4 weeks, so have a good holiday
14:43:28 <oedipus> enjoy your well-earned rest, rolland
14:43:32 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:43:36 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:43:38 <Zakim> -Roland
14:43:39 <Zakim> -Tina_Holmboe
14:43:40 <Steven_> [ADJOURN]
14:43:40 <Zakim> -Kazuyuki
14:43:44 <Zakim> -Alessio
14:43:45 <Roland_> Roland_ has left #xhtml
14:44:01 <Zakim> -Steven
14:44:02 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:44:04 <Zakim> Attendees were Kazuyuki, +04670855aaaa, Shepazu, Roland, Gregory_Rosmaita, ShaneM, Alessio, Steven, +1.914.255.aabb, Tina_Holmboe
14:44:11 <Steven_> rrsagent, make minutes
14:44:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/06-xhtml-minutes.html Steven_
14:44:25 <alessio> alessio has left #xhtml
15:32:46 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #xhtml
15:37:21 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
15:38:00 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #xhtml
16:03:41 <kaz> kaz has left #xhtml
17:02:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml
17:37:21 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
17:37:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items