12:56:41 RRSAgent has joined #nvdl 12:56:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-nvdl-irc 12:56:50 agenda + Convene, welcome presenters, review agenda 12:56:55 Meeting: NVDL Project Review 12:57:04 agenda + Presentation 12:57:20 I suppose the rest of the agenda will be built during the presentation. 12:57:30 is that about right, olivier ? 12:57:40 right, sounds good 12:57:45 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Team/w3t/2008Jul/0061.html 12:57:47 klaus has joined #nvdl 12:59:00 +??P4 12:59:18 zakim, ??p4 is Petr 12:59:18 +Petr; got it 12:59:19 Zakim, mute me 12:59:20 MikeSmith should now be muted 12:59:35 Chair: Dan 12:59:47 +??P6 12:59:50 +Olivier 12:59:53 Jirka! 12:59:57 +??P7 13:00:11 +Felix 13:00:14 Zakim, who's on the phone? 13:00:14 On the phone I see Judy, Ted (muted), Ian, Bert, MIT531, Olivier, Carine, ChrisL, MikeSmith (muted), DanC, Sandro, Petr, ??P6, Felix (muted) 13:00:16 Carine has Carine, Yves 13:00:16 MIT531 has PLH, Ralph, jeanne 13:00:17 +[IPcaller] 13:00:31 zakim, ??p6 is Jirka 13:00:31 +Jirka; got it 13:00:32 zakim, IPcaller is karl 13:00:32 +karl; got it 13:00:37 zakim, ??P6 is Jirka 13:00:37 I already had ??P6 as Jirka, olivier 13:00:47 Zakim, call shepazu 13:00:47 ok, shepazu; the call is being made 13:00:49 +Shepazu 13:01:05 Zakim, agenda? 13:01:05 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 13:01:07 1. Convene, welcome presenters, review agenda [from DanC] 13:01:08 2. Presentation [from DanC] 13:01:21 +dom 13:01:22 Pointer to NVDL spec 13:01:23 http://nvdl.org/ 13:01:23 MichaelC has joined #nvdl 13:01:33 +Matt_Womer 13:01:35 +Cooper 13:01:45 chair: DanC 13:01:45 Presentation: http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/ 13:01:49 an implementation, oNVDL 13:01:50 http://www.oxygenxml.com/onvdl.html 13:01:52 andrew has joined #nvdl 13:02:04 olivier has changed the topic to: NVDL project review - http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/ 13:02:30 Liam has joined #nvdl 13:02:33 +1 13:02:38 I prefer them to be public 13:02:44 +Sandro.a 13:02:47 DanC: ACL for minutes? public? 13:02:58 +1 for public 13:03:03 -Sandro 13:03:08 +Ian.a 13:03:10 I would like them public 13:03:11 [I'd ask that we decide at the end of the meeting] 13:03:39 I think deciding at the end prejudices the discussion 13:03:55 agenda + ACL of minutes 13:04:47 ack ralph 13:04:47 Ralph, you wanted to address Chris's concern 13:05:08 tlr has joined #nvdl 13:05:09 Zakim, take up item 1 13:05:09 agendum 1. "Convene, welcome presenters, review agenda" taken up [from DanC] 13:05:17 ericP has joined #nvdl 13:05:33 +EricP 13:05:37 zakim, call thomas-781 13:05:37 ok, tlr; the call is being made 13:05:39 +Thomas 13:05:46 -EricP 13:06:03 OT offers to provide team-only minutes, public summary 13:06:21 Zakim, who's on the phone? 13:06:21 On the phone I see Judy, Ted (muted), Ian, Thomas, Bert, MIT531, Olivier (muted), Shepazu, Carine, ChrisL, MikeSmith (muted), DanC, Petr, Jirka, Felix (muted), karl, dom (muted), 13:06:22 rrsagent, make logs team 13:06:25 ... Matt_Womer, Cooper, Sandro.a, Ian.a 13:06:25 Carine has Carine, Yves 13:06:27 MIT531 has PLH, Ralph, jeanne 13:06:42 JAPAN 13:06:45 +Andrew 13:06:54 +EricP 13:07:11 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/ 13:07:24 +Liam 13:07:53 Zakim, next item 13:07:53 agendum 2. "Presentation" taken up [from DanC] 13:08:00 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/titlepg.html 13:08:03 Zakim, remind us in 35 minutes to look at the clock 13:08:03 ok, DanC 13:08:16 Jirka: starts presentation. Introducing NVDL language 13:08:20 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil01.html 13:08:25 +Mauro 13:08:26 sandro has joined #nvdl 13:08:31 -> http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/ Using NVDL for Compound XML Document Validation 13:09:14 (is the photo on 1 / 24 of Jirka or Petr? ) 13:09:14 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil02.html 13:09:29 (ah.) 13:09:46 Slide 2 - about authors 13:10:05 -Matt_Womer 13:10:23 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil03.html 13:10:40 Slide 3 - What is NVDL 13:10:43 zakim, please call MSM-617 13:10:43 ok, MSM; the call is being made 13:10:44 +MSM 13:11:12 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil04.html 13:11:14 regrets+ TimBL 13:11:53 3 typical uses of NVDL 13:12:06 Slide 4 - NVDL Use Cases 13:12:34 [Nice! "NVDL can integrate existing schemas written in different schema language"] 13:13:12 Jean-Gui has joined #nvdl 13:13:34 agenda+ [slide 4] "Using !DOCTYPE or xsi:schemaLocation is not very good practice" 13:14:00 Zakim, code? 13:14:00 the conference code is 4562 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Jean-Gui 13:14:02 +Matt_Womer 13:14:26 +Jean-Gui 13:14:28 Zakim, mute me 13:14:28 Jean-Gui should now be muted 13:14:38 zakim, who's making noise? 13:14:45 agenda+ Comparison of NVDL to other mechanisms for integrating multiple namespaces (how does what you can do in NVDL differ from what you can do in Relax NG, DTDs, XSD?) 13:14:47 I wonder if they can integrate any kind of schemas languages or only schemas languages for XML 13:14:51 IanJ, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Judy (55%), MSM (33%) 13:15:23 agenda+ Difficulty of implementing NVDL functionality in xproc 13:15:47 zakim, mute MSM 13:15:47 MSM should now be muted 13:15:59 Current slide: http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil05.html 13:16:16 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil05.html 13:16:17 Slide 5 - Compound Document Validation Today 13:16:29 Petr takes floor 13:16:49 -EricP 13:16:50 thinking about CSS syntax inside an XML document for example, two different types of schemas and vocabulary. 13:17:04 Petr: move to the next slide for an example 13:17:10 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil06.html 13:17:18 (MSM, perhaps this addresses agendum 5...) 13:17:18 s/next slide/slide 6 13:17:22 +EricP 13:17:24 Slide 6 - Example: Compound schema for XHTML with embedded RDF, SVG and MathML written in W3C XML Schema 13:17:51 (or maybe not...) 13:18:25 (DanC, I believe it does. It's just that I don't believe it's technically accurate as an account of what is required to do this in XSD.) 13:18:32 Slide 7 - Pros and cons of this approach 13:18:37 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil07.html 13:19:04 agenda+ NVDL Conformance level with regards to schema support 13:19:16 so its like block structured languages compared to 'obe big subroutine' programming 13:19:24 s/obe/one/ 13:19:45 [I interpret the Note in slide 6 to be "Note, imagine a class of documents in which ..."] 13:20:08 [+1] 13:20:25 [or at least, it's useful to us that way] 13:20:31 Ralph, yes ,that seems to be what its saying 13:20:35 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil08.html 13:20:38 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil08.html 13:21:12 Slide 8 - How to do things smarter? Use NVDL! 13:21:31 Petr: Slide 8 has (simple!) nvdl example for the use case we have been describing 13:21:32 [it is pretty readable, indeed] 13:21:33 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil09.html 13:21:52 Slide 9 - Pros and cons of this approach (nvdl) 13:21:58 re-use is much more web-like 13:21:59 agenda+ to ask about mixing elements and attributes (SVG + ARIA) 13:23:15 (hmm... http://www.w3.org/2000/07/rdf.xsd ... odd... I had the impression RDF's syntax was awkward, at best, to represent in XSD; I would have expected RNG) 13:23:39 agenda+ to ask more about advantages of multiple modes vs all in one mode 13:23:58 DanC: RELAX NG is from 2001 13:24:06 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil10.html 13:24:19 Slide 10 - (main) Differences between NVDL and W3C XML Schema Approach to Compound Document Validation 13:24:28 ScribeNick: olivier 13:24:32 Scribe: Olivier 13:24:35 Chair: Danc 13:24:42 -Matt_Womer 13:25:07 agenda+ Technical accuracy / inaccuracy of slide 10 13:26:13 +Matt_Womer 13:26:50 (this reminds me of some investigation by HT into XHTML modularisation and XSD and top-down vs bottom-up composability... something that's getting fixed in XSD 1.1... looking for pointers...) 13:27:12 agenda+ contrast with Schematron 13:27:54 -Thomas 13:28:00 zakim, drop thomas 13:28:00 sorry, tlr, I do not see a party named 'thomas' 13:28:12 (greatly improved, not totally fixed I fear, because of some difficulties relating to attribute declarations) 13:28:15 (http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/48 ACTION-48 Produce an exemplary implementation of XHTML Modularization using substitution groups for both bottom-up extensibility and top-down modularity ) 13:28:43 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil11.html 13:28:49 (as I recall, the outcome was that it was workable except for timing differences in XSD 1.1 and XHTML mod) 13:28:57 Slide 11 - The Language — Modes 13:29:26 Petr: going (a little) deeper in how nvdl language works 13:29:49 deeper is good 13:30:23 Slide 12 - The Language — Rules 13:30:32 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil12.html 13:31:08 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil13.html 13:31:10 q+ 13:31:24 Slide 13 - The Language — Rules (continued) 13:31:31 q+ to ask clarifying question 13:31:34 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil14.html 13:32:12 Slide 14 - NVDL is not only mapping between namespaces and schemas 13:33:02 -Matt_Womer 13:33:06 -Mauro 13:33:08 zakim, Matt just arrived in mit531 13:33:08 +Matt; got it 13:33:11 mauro has left #nvdl 13:33:14 q? 13:34:17 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil15.html 13:34:37 Chris: asks questions about context (slide 12) 13:34:50 ... if you are in the head mode and find a div, do you switch to the block mode? 13:35:32 ChrisL, I think the stuff on slide 12 is *not* saying anything about "if you're in head mode..." 13:36:40 Jirka: basically, it is stating what "could" be in the head element - content that would be validated against X,Y 13:36:46 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil15.html 13:36:48 ... anything else would be ignored/rejected 13:36:50 ok, thanks 13:36:55 Jirka: back to slide 15 13:36:55 ack chrisl 13:36:55 ChrisL, you wanted to ask clarifying question 13:37:08 Slide 15 - How does NVDL work 13:37:39 (hmm... the input consists of a bunch of schemas too, no? or maybe the idea is that they're fetched during the process. hmm.) 13:37:49 matt has joined #nvdl 13:38:13 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil16.html 13:38:19 [Sorry, Jirka, can you repeat that bit? 13:38:28 Under what conditions are things nested?] 13:38:31 Slide 16 - http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/ 13:39:16 Slide 16 - Validation and Dispatching Process 13:41:29 ack msm 13:41:37 q+ can you validate one namespace against more than one schema? 13:41:38 Zakim, mute MSM 13:41:40 MSM should now be muted 13:41:45 q+ to ask can you validate one namespace against more than one schema? 13:41:47 Doug - looks like we should be using the term 'validation candidates' in SVGT1.2 D.3.1 13:42:46 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil17.html 13:42:51 agenda+ Do the arguments on slide 17 apply to schema languages? or only to implementations? (It looks at first glance like a confusion of different levels -- few languages determine the quality of implementation error messages.) 13:43:03 DanC, you asked to be reminded at this time to look at the clock 13:43:50 q+ to ask whether splitting into validation candidates means original line numbering context is lost 13:44:08 agenda+ slide 17 "can't operate on multiple different contexts" ? 13:44:14 plh, this slide (17) seems to give a "yes" answer to your question 13:44:38 q- 13:44:45 Slide 17 -Validation Against Multiple Schemas 13:44:55 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil17.html 13:45:47 ack ChrisL 13:45:47 ChrisL, you wanted to ask whether splitting into validation candidates means original line numbering context is lost 13:46:15 agenda+ Describe briefly the interface to specific validators; what context do they get (and how to do multiple validations of a single element section, giving useful error messages) 13:47:12 error locations given by xpath sather than line nubers - neat! 13:47:20 [you could probably handle line numbers by inserting blank lines and spaces] 13:47:37 s/you/an nvdl implementation/ 13:47:52 s/sather/rather/ 13:48:03 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil18.html 13:48:07 Jirka: +1 to Liam's suggestion, which is what our implementation does 13:48:23 Slide 18 - NVDL Implementations 13:48:28 I'm going to play the agenda into the channel to give people an opportunity to withdraw items 13:48:38 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil18.html 13:48:39 Zakim, agenda? 13:48:39 I see 13 items remaining on the agenda: 13:48:40 2. Presentation [from DanC] 13:48:40 3. ACL of minutes [from DanC] 13:48:41 4. [slide 4] "Using !DOCTYPE or xsi:schemaLocation is not very good practice" [from Ralph] 13:48:44 5. Comparison of NVDL to other mechanisms for integrating multiple namespaces (how does what you can do in NVDL differ from what you can do in Relax NG, DTDs, XSD?) [from MSM] 13:48:49 6. Difficulty of implementing NVDL functionality in xproc [from fsasaki] 13:48:51 7. NVDL Conformance level with regards to schema support [from plh] 13:48:54 8. to ask about mixing elements and attributes (SVG + ARIA) [from shepazu] 13:48:56 9. to ask more about advantages of multiple modes vs all in one mode [from ChrisL] 13:48:58 10. Technical accuracy / inaccuracy of slide 10 [from MSM] 13:49:00 11. contrast with Schematron [from ericP] 13:49:02 12. Do the arguments on slide 17 apply to schema languages? or only to implementations? (It looks at first glance like a confusion of different levels -- few languages determine 13:49:07 ... the quality of implementation error messages.) [from MSM] 13:49:09 13. slide 17 "can't operate on multiple different contexts" ? [from MSM] 13:49:10 14. Describe briefly the interface to specific validators; what context do they get (and how to do multiple validations of a single element section, giving useful error messages) 13:49:12 ... [from Ralph] 13:49:34 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil19.html 13:50:04 DanC: time check 13:50:10 Slide 19 - http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil19.html 13:50:26 Slide 19 - JNVDL (Java Namespace-based Validation Dispatching Language) 13:50:39 I see 13:50:41 jnvdl:useWhen="@version = '1.0'" 13:50:52 neat, how does doctype switching work? 13:51:08 we jnvdl:useWhenDoctype 13:51:15 s/we/we have/ 13:51:26 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil20.html 13:51:49 Slide 20 - JNVDL Extensions 13:52:23 Jirka: extension for filtering when a namespace is used by different versions 13:52:27 ... jnvdl:useWhen="@version = '1.0'" 13:52:41 ... pure nvdl does not let you do that 13:53:40 agenda order is 2, 8, 12, 7, 14 13:54:15 I thought that schema switching based on conditions was also supported in RNG. Is my recollection incorrect? 13:54:25 on slide 22, i'm wondering how to extend that example to use @version so 1.1 and 1.0 go to the 1.1 DTD while 1.2 goes to the 1.2T RNG 13:54:54 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil21.html 13:55:00 (I wonder if Chris and the presenters are available to stay after the chaired discussion to discuss details) 13:55:13 Slide 21 - The Relaxed Project 13:55:32 Yes, i am. i have some specific questions and examples to discuss 13:55:33 ChrisL: you can use different schema languages in different validate actions 13:55:53 [/me amused at the use of the term "restaurant" in this manner; it seems to work :) ] 13:55:54 Yes, I can stay longer on call 13:56:13 I have also been looking at http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/publish/conform.html#ConformingSVGDocuments and thinking the nvdl there is all wrong and should use multiple modes rather than one big one 13:56:23 FYI, I ordered the agenda based on a goal that I got from olivier: to get the team aware of the technology and how we could use it 13:56:35 Description of JNVDL extensions: http://jnvdl.sourceforge.net/extensions.html 13:57:38 -EricP 13:57:48 plh: relax ng can switch content models, but not on full XPath basics 13:57:50 -dom 13:58:16 +EricP 13:58:38 I note that these are also parts of the strategies used by htm5 validator - http://about.validator.nu/ 13:59:03 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil23.html 13:59:10 Slide 23 - NVDL resources 13:59:17 http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil24.html 13:59:32 [presentation ends] 13:59:46 thanks to Jirka and Petr 13:59:53 Zakim, next item 13:59:53 agendum 8. "to ask about mixing elements and attributes (SVG + ARIA)" taken up [from shepazu] 13:59:56 Thank you all 14:00:01 +1, thanks, Jirka and Petr 14:00:17 Doug: interested in SVG and ARIA 14:00:25 -Bert 14:00:32 FYI, shepazu is Doug Schepers, who works on SVG, among other things. 14:00:37 ... ARIA is a set of attributes, describes roles and states the role can be in 14:00:55 Bert has left #nvdl 14:01:09 (karl, indeed... I can imagine a whole meeting just to talk about relaxed and validator.nu ...) 14:01:22 ... would want to validate SVG (or XHTML) with aria, would like to tell author you have right role, but you have the wrong state 14:01:27 (doug, maybe you could type a little markup?) 14:01:40 so its adding attributes in a given namespace to selected svg elements. or (harder) to add attributes i the nul namespace that have an 'aria-' at the start of the attribute name 14:01:55 ... combo-box... 14:02:01 maybe? 14:02:08 http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ 14:02:35 Doug: e.g state="yes" for role="combo-box" is incompatible 14:02:53 Jirka: this is no task for nvdl, but could be handled by schematron 14:03:22 ChrisL: and you can tell nvdl to pass info to schematron 14:03:38 so you could use nvdl to dispatch schematron (or xslt) to validate the correct use of aria attributes 14:03:48 (time was when ARIA attributes were in a separate namespace... but that time seems to be passing...) 14:04:26 Petr: if you want relation from one namespace to another, you need the nvdl attach feature 14:04:35 Zakim, next item 14:04:36 agendum 12. "Do the arguments on slide 17 apply to schema languages? or only to implementations? (It looks at first glance like a confusion of different levels -- few languages 14:04:38 ... determine the quality of implementation error messages.)" taken up [from MSM] 14:04:41 ack MSM 14:05:06 MSM: on slide 17 - http://www.kosek.cz/xml/2008w3c-nvdl/foil17.html 14:05:21 ... seem to talk about problems with existing schema languages 14:05:32 ... but these seem to be issues with implementations 14:06:03 an example with SVG and ARIA - http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#impl_namespace 14:07:00 Jirka: explains an example of errors not being user friendly 14:07:03 shepazu, example for your "attribute validation" issue: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/nvdl/xhtml-its.nvdl , described at http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#integration-its-xhtml-nvdl 14:07:12 s/your /the / 14:07:38 q? 14:07:41 ... in practice I do not know grammar-base languages with [??] error messages 14:07:54 Zakim, next item 14:07:54 agendum 7. "NVDL Conformance level with regards to schema support" taken up [from plh] 14:07:55 MSM: not about schema languages in general, but current batch 14:08:00 Jirka: agreed 14:08:01 s/[??]/user defined/ 14:08:07 s/[???]/useful/ 14:08:29 PLH: are the supported schema languages left to each implementation? 14:08:47 Jirka: yes. most implementations support w3c xml schema, rnd, schematron 14:08:54 ... some also support DTD validation 14:09:15 q? 14:09:18 Zakim, next item 14:09:18 agendum 14. "Describe briefly the interface to specific validators; what context do they get (and how to do multiple validations of a single element section, giving useful error 14:09:22 ... messages)" taken up [from Ralph] 14:09:40 Ralph: interested in idea of more helpful user error messages 14:09:50 ... especially in context of multiple validation 14:10:24 ... quick description of what such an interface to several 1-language validator would look like? 14:10:52 Jirka: basically, nvdl splits documents into small fragments and sends to validator 14:11:13 ... grabs results. can explain more about how jnvdl does it 14:11:14 (Ralph, slide 18 suggests to me that the Java 1.5 validation API is a big part of the answer to your question) 14:11:26 (I'm not familiar with it, though) 14:11:31 [w.r.t. slide 12 - one question that arises, once the levels of language and implementation are disentangled better, is: given that we have shortcomings in existing implementations, is the right approach to fixing the problems to improve the implementations or to specify a new language that allows us to work around shortcomings of the current implementations of other languages?] 14:12:01 Jirka: nvdl is about the dispatching 14:12:14 Ralph: is the validation API part of the standard? 14:12:42 (slide 18) 14:12:45 -ChrisL 14:12:59 Jirka: there is no API for the error messages in the ISO standard for NVDL 14:13:00 zakim, code? 14:13:00 the conference code is 4562 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL 14:13:02 s/the standard/the NVDL standard 14:13:08 * Yves http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/javax/xml/validation/package-summary.html 14:13:15 +Chris 14:13:18 Petr: jnvdl uses the standard java validation API 14:13:29 Zakim, next item 14:13:29 agendum 3. "ACL of minutes" taken up [from DanC] 14:13:58 Zakim, close this item 14:13:58 agendum 3 closed 14:13:59 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:14:00 4. [slide 4] "Using !DOCTYPE or xsi:schemaLocation is not very good practice" [from Ralph] 14:14:00 Zakim, next item 14:14:00 agendum 4. "[slide 4] "Using !DOCTYPE or xsi:schemaLocation is not very good practice"" taken up [from Ralph] 14:14:27 Ralph: was curious about [slide 4] "Using !DOCTYPE or xsi:schemaLocation is not very good practice" 14:14:36 ... interested in developing on those remarks 14:14:45 Jirka: lacking time for this :) 14:14:53 ... postpone and discuss by email? 14:14:55 it may be helpful to validate against different schemas at different times. so hardcoded location is bad 14:15:12 Zakim, next item 14:15:12 agendum 5. "Comparison of NVDL to other mechanisms for integrating multiple namespaces (how does what you can do in NVDL differ from what you can do in Relax NG, DTDs, XSD?)" taken 14:15:15 ... up [from MSM] 14:15:24 ack MSM 14:15:39 zaki, agenda? 14:16:01 MSM: don't believe characterization of schema languages is correct 14:16:14 ... suggest replacing have to with may 14:16:40 ... etc. 14:16:57 Jirka: agree it is possible to create modular schemas with existing schema languages 14:17:16 ... advantage of nvdl is that you do not need to do those schemas extremely carefully 14:17:22 -Ian.a 14:17:33 (Ian, any input on ACL of minutes?) 14:18:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-nvdl-minutes.html Ralph 14:18:35 ... nvdl allows easier manipulation of schemas 14:18:55 MSM: suppose schema 1 says : x consists of an a, a b, and a c 14:19:03 q+ to say surely thats better than copy-and-modify? 14:19:12 MSM: nvdl could be used for extensions not expected by original grammar 14:19:46 q? 14:20:01 -EricP 14:20:05 Jirka: this is a difference of approach. 14:20:17 +EricP 14:20:45 MSM: problematic is that nvdl can change content model 14:20:46 q? 14:20:46 ack ChrisL 14:20:47 ChrisL, you wanted to say surely thats better than copy-and-modify? 14:21:05