17:58:11 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:58:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc 17:58:27 zakim, code? 17:58:27 sorry, jeanne, I don't know what conference this is 17:58:48 meeting: WAI-UA 17:59:04 Chair: Judy 17:59:17 zakim, code 17:59:17 I don't understand 'code', jeanne 17:59:22 zakim, code? 17:59:22 sorry, jeanne, I don't know what conference this is 17:59:59 KFord has joined #ua 18:02:48 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0004.html 18:05:03 Zakim, this will be UAWG 18:05:03 ok, Jan, I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM already started 18:05:27 Scribe: Jan 18:05:34 All; Introductions 18:05:46 Present+ Kelly_Ford, Simon_Harper, Jan_Richards, Judy_Brewer, Mark_Hakkinen, Jeanne_Spellman 18:06:02 Including new members Simon Harper and Mark Hakkinen. 18:06:29 JB: Jim Allan is on vacation...way offline 18:06:55 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0004.html 18:07:26 JS: This doc (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/keyboardProposals20080702.html)... 18:07:46 JS: Comes from me trying to follow what's going on...so I've brought it all together into one document 18:08:03 JS: Once I did it, it seems like a useful thing to share 18:08:15 JS: So now looks different than usual 18:08:31 -Judy 18:08:33 JS: Ifyou look at it...took allgls in 4.1 18:08:48 JS: Each has existing text and then proposed text 18:09:41 JS: Tried to put proposals in as Notes for reference purposes 18:10:00 JS: Let's start at 4.1...we were missing an introduction 18:11:10 +Judy 18:11:35 KF: Comment...how specific...before rattling off populations...needs to summarize all users... 18:11:56 KF: Say"accomodating a wide range of users that includes..." 18:13:02 JR: No other intros...but ok...many musts. 18:13:45 JB: Should not be ad libbing structure of doc 18:13:55 JR: ATAG has rationale 18:14:21 JB: Some people may try and grab guideline level text as normative even if we say its not 18:14:30 JB: Can we move this somewhere else 18:14:31 Judy has joined #ua 18:15:06 JR: Can we reuse another structur...do we need it ? Or can it be rationale? 18:15:09 JS: Yes 18:15:09 Judy has joined #ua 18:15:36 JS: I added because of difficulties JB was having in TEITAC...that's where I was coming from...I'm not attached to it 18:15:53 JB: Reason for doing=Rationale 18:16:00 JB: Looking at ATAG... 18:16:29 JB: Another reason for being conservative here is that we need it all throgu UAAG2 18:16:51 JB: Looking at wcag2...they have principle, guideline and success criteria 18:17:08 JB: Principle, guideline very terse 18:17:25 JB: They handle rationale by passing person to Understanding doc 18:17:36 SH: Looks like a defintion 18:18:02 SH: Less like rationale 18:18:29 JB: Think rationale comes through and defintiion is there too 18:18:49 JB: Each of 3 sentences is different 18:18:55 SH: Def section? 18:19:00 JB: Yes a glossary 18:19:20 JB: I'm wondering about "most universal" construct 18:19:31 SH: Can I volunteer to rewrite? 18:19:35 JB: Just a sec... 18:19:45 JB: Do we want rationale under each. 18:20:08 KF: Think we do want "Rationale" 18:20:18 MH: I like rationale there.short and sweet 18:20:24 MH: Like ATAG 18:20:44 JB: Thought exercise...on "rationale" if we skim rest of UAAG2 draft... 18:21:24 JR: I think so. 18:21:30 JB: Let's just look.... 18:22:26 JB: Picking...3.6 18:22:58 JR: Think we can 18:23:24 JB: 4.3... 18:24:24 SH: Pragmatically...if we can't create rationale...there is a prob 18:24:39 JB: Right...apologize for playing devil's advocate 18:25:10 JB: Just worried by how many meetings would be required 18:25:19 MH: How many people? 18:25:32 JB: Participation hasn't stabilized. 18:25:45 JB: Prob. 7-8 core by sept 18:25:55 MH: I have some level of energy for this 18:26:19 SH: Maybe let's see how it works for keyboard 18:27:08 JR: We can borrow a lot from ATAG 18:27:42 JB: I appreicate enthusiamsm from Simon and Mark...do wyou want to look at drafting...incl importing from ATAG. 18:28:20 SH: Maybe lets's do 1.2, 2.2, 3.... 18:28:28 JB: Good idea 18:28:42 JB: For approach let's do as concisely as possible 18:29:36 JB: So JS if you feel anything will be lost...maybe propose way of moving them back 18:29:51 JS: THink its all there below...I was just trying to make it clear 18:30:03 JB: So nothing more to talk about re: 4.1 paragraph 18:30:28 Topic: 4.1.1 18:30:50 JB: Existing, Proposed,... 18:34:02 action: SH draft new rationale text for 4.1 keyboard shortcuts 18:34:25 action: MH draft rational text for each x.1 guideline 18:35:09 JR: Just wants to make sure "functionality" is clear enough 18:35:24 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10-TECHS/ 18:36:19 JB: We seem ok with Jeanne's proposal 18:36:40 Action JS: To record previous example "resizing window" in techniques 18:36:52 Topic: 4.1.2 18:37:05 JS: Only title change 18:37:18 JB: Some requirements moving away from titles 18:37:57 JB: So came to "Documentation of Precedence of Keystroke Processing" 18:38:13 JB: And another requirement had the same title 18:41:33 JB, JR: DDiscuss why there are 2 and why document is higher priority 18:41:46 JS: Wondering where it should be documented 18:42:02 JB: TEITAC had lots of dscussion on where things should be documented 18:42:34 JB: I recall I was on calls with KF where progress was made 18:43:05 JB: JS had some language..."prominent in the documentation" 18:43:40 JB: Maybe we could use the same wording...in the same place 18:43:54 JS: So co-located with list of shortcut keys 18:43:57 JR: Agreed 18:44:03 JB: Totle ok 18:44:08 JB: Ttle ok 18:44:30 Topic: 4.1.3 18:44:35 JB: No change 18:44:39 Topic: 4.1.4 18:44:41 JB: No change 18:44:43 Topic: 4.1.5 18:44:51 JB: Available keystrokes... 18:45:12 JB: So Jeanne tried to bring in some other stuff. 18:45:32 KF: Editorial..."both" 18:46:27 JR: Quite different than it was. 18:46:31 JS: Right 18:46:57 JB: We will come back to title 18:50:09 JR: Try to avoid "content" 18:52:53 Jan raised concerns over recognized. 18:54:39 4.5 rewritten to 4.1.5 Available Keyboard Shortcuts: The user can always determine available keyboard shortcuts by all of the following: 18:54:39 list of 3 items 18:54:39 • (a) A user setting in which keyboard shortcuts for currently available controls are visually displayed (e.g. an underlined letter or inclusion in a user 18:54:39 interface menu). 18:54:40 • (b) If a keyboard shortcut exists for a component, then it is available programmatically to assistive technology. 18:54:43 • (c) A list of all keyboard shortcuts that is prominent in the documentation. 18:54:45 list end 18:55:12 KFord has joined #ua 18:56:29 JB: two concerns. 18:56:47 people thinking keyboard shortucts in content when we meant chrome. 18:58:20 JB explained user interface keyboard provision in response from Simon. 18:59:14 JB: 4.15 is the ability of the user to determine keyboard shortcuts in the way that works best for the way they are accessing the user agent e.g. screen reader, looking at product and such. 18:59:39 JB clarifying 4.1.5 and 4.1.7. 19:00:44 JAN expressed opinion that current proposal has lost key content. 19:01:46 Talk about meeting logistics. Can we meet for 90 minutes to make progress? 19:02:10 Anyone have a conflict going to 90 minutes asked by JB? 19:02:52 Simon expressed desire to start early verssu going late. 19:03:23 Simon willing to give the later time a chance. 19:03:59 JB: Going to try 90 minutes 19:04:16 JB: can we go 15 minutes past the hour. 19:04:47 JB: asked if group can go for 15 minutes. 19:04:57 KFord not able to but group will continue. 19:05:51 scribe nick: jeanne 19:06:34 -[Microsoft] 19:08:35 ACTION: JS will write a new guideline that includes the requirements for content display of keyboard shortcuts. 19:10:36 JB: is there a reason that the word "component" is used rather than User Interface Application Controls? 19:11:19 JR: the length of the phrase. That was why we went toward "chrome" because that was recognized in the industry. 19:12:23 SH: Let's drop the phrase "for a component" so it reads, If a keyboard shortcut exists, then it is available programmatically to assitive technology". 19:14:30 JB: Flag 4.1.5 (c) for more discussion. JB is concerned that "prominent" may not be sufficient. 19:15:14 action: JS draft a content-oriented keyboard shortcut proposal and check w/ Jan 19:16:03 -Jeanne 19:16:05 -??P13 19:16:11 -??P31 19:16:20 -Judy 19:16:26 -??P28 19:16:27 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended 19:16:28 zakim, who is here? 19:16:29 Attendees were [Microsoft], Jeanne, Judy 19:16:30 apparently WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended, jeanne 19:16:31 On IRC I see Judy, RRSAgent, sharper, Zakim, jeanne, Jan 19:16:42 present? 19:17:21 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:17:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-minutes.html Jan 19:17:30 RRSAgent, set logs public 19:17:35 present + Kelly_Reed, Simon_Harper, Jan_Richards, Markku Hakkenin 19:17:35 Zakim, bye 19:17:35 Zakim has left #ua 19:17:48 RRSAgent, bye 19:17:48 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-actions.rdf : 19:17:48 ACTION: SH draft new rationale text for 4.1 keyboard shortcuts [1] 19:17:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T18-34-02 19:17:48 ACTION: MH draft rational text for each x.1 guideline [2] 19:17:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T18-34-25 19:17:48 ACTION: JS to To record previous example "resizing window" in techniques [3] 19:17:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T18-36-40 19:17:48 ACTION: JS will write a new guideline that includes the requirements for content display of keyboard shortcuts. [4] 19:17:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T19-08-35 19:17:48 ACTION: JS draft a content-oriented keyboard shortcut proposal and check w/ Jan [5] 19:17:48 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-ua-irc#T19-15-14