14:20:42 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:20:42 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-rif-irc 14:20:48 zakim, this will be rif 14:20:48 ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 40 minutes 14:21:07 Meeting: RIF Telecon 24-Jun-08 14:21:14 Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie 14:21:38 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0130.html 14:21:49 ChrisW has changed the topic to: 24 June Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/0130.html 14:22:10 rrsagent, make minutes 14:22:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 14:22:23 agenda+ Admin 14:22:27 agenda+ Liason 14:22:31 agenda+ F2F11 14:22:37 agenda+ Action review 14:22:48 agenda+ Casting (Issue-61) 14:22:54 agenda+ PRD 14:23:02 agenda+ Publication Plan 14:23:06 agenda+ AOB 14:25:51 rrsagent, make logs public 14:51:36 csma has joined #rif 14:55:06 Chair: Chris Welty 14:56:08 agenda+ Equal syntax 14:57:30 Harold has joined #rif 15:01:05 DaveReynolds has joined #rif 15:01:11 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 15:01:18 +[IBM] 15:01:18 josb has joined #rif 15:01:24 zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me 15:01:24 +ChrisW; got it 15:01:29 where is everyone? 15:01:32 zakim, next item 15:01:32 agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:01:49 PROPOSED: change editor of all documents to ChrisW 15:02:05 +1 15:02:07 PROPOSED: change working group name to Chris WG 15:02:21 +Sandro 15:02:21 +??P26 15:02:29 +[NRCC] 15:02:31 +[IPcaller] 15:02:38 all resolutions passed 15:02:46 zakim, [NRCC] is me 15:02:47 +Harold; got it 15:03:48 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:48 On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, Harold, josb 15:04:30 AdrianP has joined #rif 15:04:54 mdean has joined #rif 15:05:09 +Gary_Hallmark 15:05:15 Scribe: DaveReynolds 15:05:30 +Mike_Dean 15:05:32 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Jun/att-0128/2008-06-17-rif-minutes.html 15:05:33 ScribeNick: DaveReynolds 15:05:39 PROPOSED: accept last weeks minutes 15:05:54 RESOLVED: accept last weeks minutes 15:05:57 AdrianP has joined #rif 15:06:17 zakim, next item 15:06:17 agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:06:34 zakim, who is on the phone?" 15:06:34 I don't understand 'who is on the phone?"', ChrisW 15:06:37 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:06:37 On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, Harold, josb, Gary_Hallmark, Mike_Dean 15:06:44 markproctor has joined #rif 15:06:46 +Christian 15:06:57 zakim, mute me 15:06:57 sorry, csma, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:07:10 zakim, christian is me 15:07:16 +csma; got it 15:07:40 + +49.351.463.4.aaaa 15:07:57 ChrisW: Received message from Mismo re a serialization format 15:08:02 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 15:08:14 Apologies, had trouble with my phone... 15:08:16 dialing. 15:08:21 +Mark_Proctor 15:08:46 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:08:47 Zakim, aaaa is me 15:08:47 +AdrianP; got it 15:08:48 Christian: referring to the Atom syndication format 15:08:55 Zakim, mute me 15:08:55 AdrianP should now be muted 15:09:05 Sandro: not clear how it relates to us 15:09:37 +??P22 15:10:06 Christian: MISMO's current assumption is that they will extend RIF but waiting for PRD and stable BLD, also looking at multiple other possibilities 15:11:21 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 15:11:26 +Michael_Kifer 15:11:27 Christian: Initially used to PR style, but when looked at BLD realized they do have need for things like integrity rules 15:11:32 zakim, who is on the call? 15:11:32 On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, Harold, josb, Gary_Hallmark, Mike_Dean, csma, AdrianP (muted), Mark_Proctor, AxelPolleres, Michael_Kifer 15:11:35 zakim, mute me 15:11:35 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:11:37 Zakim, unmute me 15:11:37 AdrianP should no longer be muted 15:11:44 zakim, mute me 15:11:44 csma should now be muted 15:12:02 zakim, next item 15:12:02 agendum 3. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:12:05 Zakim, mute me 15:12:05 AdrianP should now be muted 15:12:08 Adrian: liason to HCLSG, meeting on Thursday 15:12:24 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f11dates/ 15:12:46 + +1.212.781.aabb 15:12:58 zakim, aabb is me 15:12:58 +LeoraMorgenstern; got it 15:13:10 Sandro: some results in but need answers, ideally today, from others especially editors 15:13:28 zakim, unmute me 15:13:28 csma should no longer be muted 15:13:59 Current surviving date is 26/27 Sep (Fri/Sat0) 15:14:15 s/Sat0/Sat/ 15:14:31 ChrisW: sounds like our provisional date 15:14:49 Sandro: seems to be a preference for NY over Cambridge 15:15:57 zakim, next item 15:15:57 agendum 4. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW] 15:16:50 zakim, unmute me 15:16:51 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:16:54 -Gary_Hallmark 15:17:15 zakim, mute me 15:17:15 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:17:23 +Gary_Hallmark 15:17:24 ACTION-532 complete 15:17:32 ACTION-531 complete 15:17:49 ACTION-529 pending discussion 15:18:46 ACTION-527 done 15:19:44 yes!@ 15:19:56 DTB doesn't talk about BASE 15:20:07 I assumed this to be in BLD. 15:20:22 zakim, unmute me 15:20:22 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:20:56 zakim, mute me 15:20:56 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:21:03 Discussion on action-526, action to put explanation in DTB re: URI base directive, syntax is in BLD already 15:21:07 Zakim, unmute me 15:21:07 AxelPolleres should no longer be muted 15:21:09 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 15:21:30 zakim, unmute me 15:21:30 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:21:36 Axel: not clear why this relates to DTB 15:21:50 zakim, mute me 15:21:50 csma should now be muted 15:22:05 Axel: other abbreviations fitted in here because they related to constants and symbol spaces 15:22:20 Michael: this also relates to constants 15:23:24 zakim, mute me 15:23:24 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:23:50 action: axel to add explaination of relative IRIs wrt base directive to DTB shortcuts 15:24:14 ACTION-526 now complete 15:24:14 zakim, unmute me 15:24:14 csma should no longer be muted 15:24:15 Zakim, mute me 15:24:16 AxelPolleres should now be muted 15:24:19 zakim, unmute me 15:24:19 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:24:21 zakim, mute me 15:24:21 csma should now be muted 15:24:35 Axel, "While there is a RIF-BLD element tag for the Import directive, there are none for the Prefix and Base directives (they are represented directly in the underlying XML). 15:24:35 " 15:24:50 zakim, mute me 15:24:50 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:25:05 ACTION-522 complete 15:25:43 Zakim, unmute me 15:25:43 AxelPolleres should no longer be muted 15:26:27 ACTION-521 continued, Jie sent a message to the wg (though not everyone recalls seeing this) 15:27:01 ACTION-518 complete 15:27:11 zakim, unmute me 15:27:11 csma should no longer be muted 15:27:12 zakim, unmute me 15:27:12 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:27:59 zakim, mute me 15:27:59 csma should now be muted 15:28:07 Michael: FLD just need schema from Harold 15:28:26 zakim, mute me 15:28:26 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:28:39 Harold: finish BLD first, working on metadata and identifiers, aim for deadline of Friday 15:29:38 action: chris to create f2f11 wiki page 15:29:38 Created ACTION-534 - Create f2f11 wiki page [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-07-01]. 15:29:57 ACTION-515 completed 15:30:50 Axel: status of DTB - acted on comments from Jos and Harold. Wherever didn't reach agreement marked as editor note. 15:31:23 Axel: only thing left is the action today (URI base and relative URIs) plus the action with the OWL-WG 15:31:33 Axel: these aren't needed for WD 15:31:49 Axel: so just update the description of shortcuts 15:32:25 Axel: casting, rif:iri to/from string, there is now a strawman in there 15:32:37 Axel: and there is an editors note linking this to issue-61 15:32:51 ACTION-487 complete 15:33:57 zakim, unmute me 15:33:57 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:33:58 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Alphabet_of_RIF-BLD 15:34:51 ChrisW: BLD has been updated (see Harold link) to just have list of datatypes 15:36:08 ChrisW: point is that DTB in the long run will include new datatypes which are not automatically added to BLD 15:36:30 Axel: so same story for predicates and functions, where are those going to be listed? 15:37:33 ChrisW: want the BLD/DTB document relation to be easy to maintain. So BLD picks datatypes and DTB lists all the required predicates and functions for the selected datatypes. 15:38:03 Michael: just refer to the DTB section rather than name each predicate/function separately. 15:38:45 If BLD refers to (sub)sections of DTB, then of course the version/date of DTB needs to be noted in BLD. 15:39:05 q+ to ask about adding string comparison predicates 15:39:11 (DTBs (sub)sections could change.) 15:39:36 ChrisW: issue is ease of maintenance over time. 15:41:03 Michael: add sections, not add functions to sections. 15:41:47 I don't understand "The alternative is [...] to do as we do it now." ... 15:41:57 ChrisW: can add to list of datatypes but not functions and predicates for already defined datatypes. 15:42:40 Sandro: BLD refers to particular versions of DTB and lists any exceptions? 15:44:29 Axel: easiest thing would be for BLD to list the DTB sections. 15:45:02 +1 BLD document should indeed say which builtins it requires 15:45:21 (+1 was to Axel's suggestion) 15:45:34 ChrisW: organize the relation via the datatypes, the set of predicates and functions for a particular datatype is frozen 15:46:10 ChrisW: so when BLD goes to LC those fn and preds in DTB are frozen from then on 15:46:33 ChrisW: organize by section for each dialect makes DTB unmaintainable as the dialects increase 15:46:39 builtins may be defined for multiple datatypes 15:47:36 string comparison predicates need work before you freeze anything! 15:47:53 ChrisW: so just add "and all associated builtin fns and preds" 15:48:09 Michael: issue that "associated", "mentioned" are not precise enough 15:48:25 numerics are not on one particular datatype! 15:48:43 Axel: consider compare on strings, that returns an integer, so there are cross dependencies on datatypes 15:48:59 we should change string compare to work like numeric compare and date compare 15:49:03 q+ 15:49:46 zakim, unmute me 15:49:46 csma should no longer be muted 15:49:59 zakim, mute me 15:49:59 csma should now be muted 15:50:33 Gary: tangentially the string, numeric and date comparison operators should all work the same 15:51:39 Jos: don't think it is possible to categorize the builtins by datatype e.g. casts, numeric functions 15:52:35 Sandro: or could have DTB have an appendix defining particular profiles 15:53:13 Michael: have dialects support all of DTB 15:53:51 Axel: some dialects could restrict the list, e.g. Core might be all of DTB minus specific exceptions 15:54:17 q? 15:54:19 q+ 15:54:20 ack josb 15:54:20 +1 for Michael 15:54:28 ack gary 15:54:28 GaryHallmark, you wanted to ask about adding string comparison predicates 15:54:30 Michael's suggestion works for me 15:55:44 f2f10 resolution: RESOLVED: DTB will provide the menu of datatypes and builtins which dialects can use, by reference, when they state which datatypes and builtins must be supported by implementations. 15:55:58 q- 15:57:34 yes, the reference needs to be dated! 15:58:28 ChrisW: idea is that BLD will reference a specific dated version of DTB and the entire set of datatypes and builtin fns and predicates in that version? 15:58:44 use date, not version number 15:59:29 Sandro: normally would refer by date but if we want to allow non-significant editorial changes then would have to make up some version numbering scheme 15:59:42 q+ 15:59:58 ChrisW: alt is tp explicitly list all of this in an appendix in the dialect, that would reduce DTB maintenance overhead 16:00:07 s/tp/to/ 16:00:29 ack jos 16:01:05 We could cross-refer between RIF docs using (date-containing!) URLs such as http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-rif-ucr-20060710/ 16:01:51 Jos: why not use dates? 16:02:33 ChrisW: want to be able to make changes to DTB which don't affect the list of builtins with breaking the list from BLD 16:02:45 s/list/link/ 16:02:52 zakim, mute me 16:02:52 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 16:03:31 Sandro: while BLD is in last call DTB will go through a couple of revisions, impact of that is unclear 16:04:19 ChrisW: decision at f2f was that DTB is a catalog, the dialect selects from DTB as a menu. 16:05:18 q+ 16:05:31 Gary: in practice all dialects are likely to share all datatypes 16:05:55 ChrisW: the point is to not change BLD while it is in last call 16:06:58 boolean 16:07:55 Sandro: need some stability here 16:08:24 Sandro: solution here is to have named profiles of datatypes and builtins, the dialects reference the profiles 16:09:37 -Mark_Proctor 16:11:12 Chris: We are trying to allow DTB to be change after freezing BLD. 16:12:13 q- 16:12:15 Axel: make changes in DTB in a separate document 16:12:16 We could distinguish a 'basic DTB' part which can be frozen along with BLD Last Call. Then BLD needs to refer only to that basic DTB part. Both could later co-evolve. 16:12:23 Sandro: so that DTB is just DTB for BLD 16:12:23 Axel: Let's freeze DTB as DTB-FOR-BLD. if PRD wants something else, it has to define its diff from this. 16:12:43 q+ 16:12:53 q? 16:13:43 that is usable, but that makes DTB much less useful 16:13:45 Sandro: so proposal is that DTB is frozen as BLD is frozen, any changes needed to DTB are made elsewhere 16:13:55 Axel's Proposal == DTB gets frozen at the same time at BLD, we can't change DTB going forward. If you need something different, you have to do a reference-with-diffs. 16:14:18 Harold: see IRC comment 16:14:31 Harold, that is the same as listing all the preds and funcs from DTB which BLD is using explicitly. 16:14:32 ChrisW: that's basically Sandro's named profile proposal 16:14:44 I see no problem with that either. 16:15:09 Sandro's Proposal == DTB includes in an appendex a Frozen "Profile #1" which is the set of datatypes and builtings that BLD uses. 16:15:57 q+ 16:16:16 ack csma 16:16:30 spliting into several places where builtins and datatypes are defined would make it very hard for the user to use RIF 16:16:36 Harold: less happy with current proposal where deltas go in the dialect document, dilutes the use of DTB (and FLD) be a unifying force across the dialects 16:16:37 I assume that core has less. 16:16:50 it might also lead to a maintenance problem if RIF grows and we have many dialects 16:16:52 Christian: the unifying force is core 16:17:14 Gary: are there specific datatypes currently in DTB which would not go in core? 16:18:06 Christian: don't see reason it should be different, but don't see a reason to freeze DTB wrt to BLD, if freeze it should be wrt Core 16:18:15 zakim, mute me 16:18:15 csma should now be muted 16:18:15 Sandro's Proposal == DTB includes in an appendex a Frozen "Profile #1" which is the set of datatypes and builtings that BLD uses. 16:18:22 E.g.: if core is only datalog, then I don't see much need for built-ins to be in Core. 16:18:30 q+ 16:18:44 I note that nobody offered an example of a DTB datatype that would not be in Core 16:18:52 DTB can play the role of a "unifying force" pulling together all of the RIF dialects. This should not be given up just to simplify cross-referencing between RIF docs. See Sandro's Proposal and my one above. 16:19:34 Axel: why define the profile in DTB, why not just list in appendix in the dialect document. 16:19:49 Sandro: because the profile may be shared, putting it in DTB enables that 16:20:52 Axel: so in that case let the other dialects say it uses the same datatypes and builtins as BLD 16:21:03 zakim, unmute me 16:21:03 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 16:21:23 PROPOSAL-3: BLD includes a frozen list of datatypes+builtings, and any dialect which wants to use it, can refer to it there (instead of a named profile in DTB) 16:21:44 Michael: object to putting big appendix in the dialects 16:22:03 Ad "Michael and Axel have to negotiate who does the work": Micheal... let's just say Harold does it! ;-) just kiddin', Harold. 16:22:42 I do not object to any of the two, I am fine with freezing DTB and also fine with explicitly enumerating preds and funcs in BLD. 16:22:48 PROPOSAL-4: BLD refers to DTB by dated version. 16:23:04 Axel, it's more a matter of avoiding redundancy to simplify maintenance. 16:23:05 I only object to adding additional "profiles" to DTB. 16:23:08 maintenance is a problem, e.g. in BLD rif:text is marked at risk in PRD it is not 16:23:11 zakim, mute me 16:23:11 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 16:23:15 can you repeat proposal 1 and 2 16:23:43 PROPOSAL-4: BLD refers to DTB by dated version. (if dialects need other things, they refer to new dated versions. BLD still refers to old one) 16:23:57 PROPOSAL-1 (Axel's Proposal) == DTB gets frozen at the same time at BLD, we can't change DTB going forward. If you need something different, you have to do a reference-with-diffs. 16:24:13 zakim, unmute me 16:24:13 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 16:24:19 PROPOSAL-2 (Sandro's Proposal )== DTB includes in an appendex a Frozen "Profile #1" which is the set of datatypes and builtings that BLD uses. 16:24:26 zakim, mute me 16:24:26 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 16:24:47 PROPOSAL-4: BLD refers to DTB by version (date or number). (if dialects need other things, they refer to new dated versions. BLD still refers to old one) 16:24:52 Zakim, unmute me 16:24:52 AdrianP should no longer be muted 16:25:09 q? 16:25:11 date 16:25:14 number 16:25:17 number 16:25:17 0 16:25:17 date 16:25:21 number 16:25:22 number 16:25:23 number 16:25:51 should't it be by version URI? 16:25:56 PROPOSED: BLD refers to DTB by version number. If/when dialects need other things, they refer to new versions. BLD still refers to old one. 16:25:59 ... for the published document? 16:26:04 Zakim, mute me 16:26:04 AdrianP should now be muted 16:26:13 ok, DTB was just renamed to "RIF Data Types and Built-Ins 1.0" 16:26:54 yes, new versions are new documents. 16:27:17 so, Axel, can you add string-not-equals, etc.??? 16:27:27 +1 16:27:29 +1 16:27:30 It is marked with an Editor's note. 16:27:32 0 16:27:33 +1 16:27:34 +1 16:27:35 0 16:27:36 0 16:27:40 we have to discuss it. 16:27:42 +1 16:27:42 +0 nervous about it but I don't see a real problem 16:27:48 0 16:27:50 RESOLVED: BLD refers to DTB by version number. If/when dialects need other things, they refer to new versions. BLD still refers to old one. 16:28:03 zakim, list agenda 16:28:03 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 16:28:05 4. Action review [from ChrisW] 16:28:06 5. Casting (Issue-61) [from ChrisW] 16:28:06 6. PRD [from ChrisW] 16:28:07 7. Publication Plan [from ChrisW] 16:28:07 8. AOB [from ChrisW] 16:28:08 9. Equal syntax [from ChrisW] 16:28:08 ack csma 16:28:22 q- 16:29:17 Finishing action review (!) ACTION-482 is now changed to reflect this further change to the role 16:29:24 q- 16:29:28 s/role/role of DTB/ 16:29:46 zakim, unmute me 16:29:46 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 16:30:01 ACTION-482 complete 16:30:14 can we use the versioning mechanism to refer to all other RIF documents? 16:30:40 Lots of wiggle room for 1.0 :-) 16:30:49 +1 extend 16:30:56 +1 16:31:00 +1 16:31:01 +1 16:32:20 what about action 484 (sorry if I insist)? 16:32:39 A little bit of wiggle room can help us to co-evolove the two specs. 16:33:45 -AdrianP 16:33:53 BTW I created ISSUE-67 to track the string-less-than issue 16:34:40 zakim, unmute me 16:34:40 csma was not muted, csma 16:34:47 [Non scribe] Humm that sounded like proposal 1 ! 16:35:18 ACTION-505 closed 16:35:19 ACTION-505 Come up with style for "At Risk" comments in document. closed 16:36:29 ACTION-500 pending discussion 16:36:46 Adrian has joined #rif 16:36:46 ACTION-498 closed 16:36:46 ACTION-498 Add text explaining external frames closed 16:36:57 ACTION-498 pending discussion 16:37:08 ACTION-506 pending discussion 16:37:16 ACTION-502 closed 16:37:16 ACTION-502 Put relative IRI handling, with base directive, in BLD closed 16:37:45 I think we should also add the version number to BLD 1.0 so people can see that BLD 1.0 and DTB 1.0 are in sync. 16:38:29 ChrisW: don't expect the dialects to change 16:38:29 zakim, mute me 16:38:29 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 16:39:34 ChrisW: FLD less clear but the changes we could imagine are unlikely to change the dialect defn 16:39:43 -Harold 16:39:45 -Michael_Kifer 16:39:47 -Gary_Hallmark 16:39:47 -josb 16:39:48 -LeoraMorgenstern 16:40:01 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:40:01 On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, Mike_Dean, csma, AxelPolleres 16:40:02 Regrets: JosDeBruijn, Sandro Hawke, Hassan A�t-Kaci MohamedZergaoui 16:40:05 -AxelPolleres 16:40:06 zakim, list attendees 16:40:06 As of this point the attendees have been ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, josb, Harold, Gary_Hallmark, Mike_Dean, csma, +49.351.463.4.aaaa, Mark_Proctor, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, 16:40:10 ... Michael_Kifer, +1.212.781.aabb, LeoraMorgenstern 16:40:11 -Mike_Dean 16:40:13 rrsagent, make minutes 16:40:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 16:40:18 no regrets from me! 16:40:27 External frames are not supported in DTB though... anyway. 16:40:31