14:36:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #backplane
14:36:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-backplane-irc
14:36:41 <Charlie> zakim, this will be rwab
14:36:41 <Zakim> ok, Charlie; I see INC_RWAB()11:00AM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
14:36:54 <Charlie> rrsagent, make log public
14:37:10 <Charlie> Meeting: app backplane XG teleconference
14:37:18 <Charlie> Chair: Charlie Wiecha
14:37:33 <Charlie> Regrets: Kevin, Uli
14:37:58 <Charlie> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Jun/0016.html
14:55:47 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has now started
14:55:54 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:56:02 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
14:56:02 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
14:58:10 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #backplane
14:58:40 <rahul> rahul has joined #backplane
15:01:41 <Zakim> + +31.20.616.aaaa
15:01:53 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #backplane
15:02:20 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #backplane
15:02:29 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:03:20 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:03:25 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
15:03:33 <jsalvachua> jsalvachua has joined #backplane
15:03:39 <jsalvachua> Hello, good morning
15:04:11 <oedipus> CW: markup examples - embedding in dojo
15:05:38 <Zakim> + +34.91.549.aabb
15:05:55 <oedipus> CW: First example of using ubiquity modules in AJAX: xforms model and submission in Dojo
15:06:03 <oedipus> http://www.webexamples.com
15:06:11 <Charlie> webdialogs.com
15:06:16 <Charlie> meeting code is 801862
15:06:28 <oedipus> s/webexamples.com/webdialogs.com
15:06:40 <Steven> Steven has joined #backplane
15:06:49 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:06:49 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:06:50 <Zakim> +Steven
15:07:07 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:07:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Charlie, +31.20.616.aaaa, John_Boyer, Gregory_Rosmaita, +34.91.549.aabb, Steven
15:07:14 <Steven> zakim, wh is here?
15:07:18 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:07:19 <oedipus> CW: welcome to Jack - joining us today
15:07:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, jsalvachua, oedipus, John_Boyer, rahul, jackjansen, RRSAgent, Zakim, Charlie
15:07:26 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I do not understand your question
15:07:27 <oedipus> CW: brief introductions
15:07:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Charlie, +31.20.616.aaaa, John_Boyer, Gregory_Rosmaita, +34.91.549.aabb, Steven
15:07:43 <Steven> zakim, wh ois talking?
15:07:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, jsalvachua, oedipus, John_Boyer, rahul, jackjansen, RRSAgent, Zakim, Charlie
15:07:49 <Steven> zakim, who is talking?
15:07:53 <oedipus> Jack: member of SYMM WG work on SMIL; SMIL state
15:07:58 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven.
15:08:12 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Charlie (4%), +31.20.616.aaaa (9%), +34.91.549.aabb (40%)
15:08:17 <oedipus> JJ: integration into web apps for SMIL states
15:08:32 <oedipus> CW: welcome
15:08:57 <jsalvachua> i think the noise its me 
15:09:02 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is probably jackjansen
15:09:02 <Zakim> +jackjansen?; got it
15:09:13 <jackjansen> oedipus, I am +31.20
15:09:16 <oedipus> CW: background
15:09:19 <Charlie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features
15:09:22 <Steven> zakim, country code 34?
15:09:22 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Steven.
15:09:32 <oedipus> TOPIC: XForms Face2Face Update
15:09:50 <oedipus> CW: spent good chunk of times refactoring XForms spec into modules
15:09:56 <oedipus> CW: XForms 1.2 M12n
15:10:07 <oedipus> CW: different from original backplane note (2006 Amsterdam)
15:10:08 <jsalvachua> 34 spain
15:10:43 <oedipus> CW: modulized XForms with finer grade modules; trying to reflect XHTML m12n
15:11:07 <oedipus> CW: backplane - implementing modules into host languages
15:11:25 <oedipus> CW: started in XG investigating ubiquity xforms (google code)
15:11:45 <John_Boyer> http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/
15:12:01 <oedipus> JJ: had quick look - needs serious study
15:12:16 <oedipus> CW: Forms POV and Backplane POV is digestable in small pieces
15:12:42 <John_Boyer> For developers (consumers) of ubiquity, here is a google interest group: http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms
15:12:54 <oedipus> CW: what if author just interested in Data Model and want to support in Web 2.0 application; just need to use relevant modules
15:13:15 <oedipus> JJ: ubiquity forms stuff very very interesting; no support on Safari
15:13:24 <jackjansen> agrees with steven
15:13:32 <oedipus> CW: by virtue of AJAX implementation, get out of plug-ins
15:13:54 <oedipus> CW: hope is twofold: 1) cross-platform implementation; 2) beyond the desktop (mobile, etc.)
15:14:24 <oedipus> CW: ubiquity and XG symbiotic relationship to extend ubiquity model with non-traditional types of content (beyond forms and HTML)
15:14:40 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:14:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:14:58 <oedipus> JB: couple of google groups for developers - consult URIs pasted above -
15:15:08 <oedipus> JB: how to use, rather how to develop
15:15:16 <oedipus> oedipus@hicom.net
15:15:55 <John_Boyer> Here is a link to a group that will be focused on consumers of the new ubiquity library: http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms
15:16:00 <oedipus> CW: goal - sense of direction to drive examples - using ubiquity library for other purposes
15:16:08 <oedipus> CW: dojo data provider
15:16:25 <oedipus> CW: discuss support of custom controls in dojo with XForms wrappers
15:16:43 <John_Boyer> This is different than contributing to the ubiquity library, which has this other group: http://groups.google.com/group/ubiquity-xforms-eng
15:16:47 <oedipus> CW: what would be something to implement - email client? who are we addressing
15:16:50 <Steven> q+
15:17:13 <oedipus> CW: 1) who are we trying to impact and 2) choosing an example to code
15:17:24 <oedipus> q?
15:18:11 <Steven> I am
15:18:25 <Steven> I know
15:18:35 <oedipus> JB: CW has to relaunch before everyone can join
15:18:39 <John_Boyer> Once Charlie launches: www.webdialogs.com/join  code 801862
15:18:40 <Steven> I was waiting to be invited to talk
15:19:15 <Charlie> meeting is up you can rejoin
15:20:18 <oedipus> Steven: question who are we trying to impact - ourselves are the customers - all W3C WGs doing things with similar use cases but weork independently so all end up slightly different and think use cases different, see W3C and its WGs prime candidates - makes W3C Submit standard; XML Events 2 library; put as much in core as possible
15:20:42 <oedipus> CW: rather than focusing on AJAX integration and dojo integration - mix and match with other XML namespaces?
15:21:39 <oedipus> SP: that should be our aim; dojo as an implementation of concept and no more than that; in end, ideally, use cases should become markup without need to program out - find way to declaratively markup so can be supported natively or through script, but in the end gives you what you want
15:21:45 <oedipus> CW: return to SP's point after demo
15:22:34 <Steven> "Your Web browser does not meet the requirements
15:22:34 <Steven> for joining a presentation."
15:22:44 <Steven> Doesn't work for me
15:23:24 <oedipus> SP: doesn't work with opera
15:23:29 <oedipus> CW: do you have FF?
15:26:26 <oedipus> : follows dojo api which allow any dojo widget (XForms data module) do things server side to process; allows one to export data model, dojo stores model and uses DOM;
15:27:13 <oedipus> ??: XForms data module - accept data, on javascript side create adjacent object with data model id, formation id, and custom ??? id - uses XPath to add to bucket
15:27:45 <oedipus> ??: dojo object registered through DOM
15:28:26 <oedipus> ??: demo does search on picassa - used modular extensions and mozilla data model extension
15:29:06 <oedipus> ??: if type "XForms" and do a search, returns XML document; use dojo data storage to put image into thumbnail anchor
15:29:37 <oedipus> ??: can use title as well as thumbnail - if click on it, you get the image
15:30:11 <oedipus> ??: all done by dojo widget - data model allows dojo widget to crunch data from XForm - any dojo widget that could use this as way to send data up the web
15:30:49 <oedipus> ??: also have another example - how easy to use - picassa example
15:31:34 <oedipus> TL: bunch of images - one library lists - only thing diff between 2 is data model and call for item and call for form
15:31:57 <Steven> s/: follows/TL: follows/
15:32:06 <Steven> s/??:/TL:/G
15:32:14 <oedipus> JB: traditional dojo author would write script that wouldn't capture differences between picassa and flickr - 2 different declarative statements
15:32:22 <oedipus> s/??:/TL:
15:32:39 <oedipus> TL: XPath retrieves data (images) to show picture
15:32:56 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:32:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:33:03 <Steven> s/picassa/picasa/G
15:33:34 <oedipus> CW: Use case - differentiate interfaces using dojo - is it the kind of thing trhat has "legs" - injects some XForms modules into AJAX framework
15:33:48 <jackjansen> q+
15:34:01 <oedipus> JB: piece of XForms markup not very big so not doing much - just doing submission - what would look like without XForms markup?
15:34:33 <oedipus> TL: if don't have XForms markup, have to use data storage which has to fetch from web server - implementation in dojo that does that
15:34:52 <oedipus> CW: doing comparission might be a good thing - declarative layer boiled out of code
15:35:18 <oedipus> JJ: very excited - touches on demo i'm working on - can point to demo if keep confidential
15:35:54 <jackjansen> smil state demo: http://homepages.cwi.nl/~jack/NoBudget/
15:36:13 <oedipus> JJ: only works in safari on mac
15:36:37 <oedipus> JJ: integrating SMIL and googlemaps and XForms and web content - big problem: tying all the stuff together
15:36:47 <oedipus> JJ: dojo would have made life easier
15:37:27 <oedipus> CW: backplane POV would prefer XML Event notification between model and ticker; complete backplane compliance should have XForms value change ond notification events
15:37:42 <oedipus> CW: data model piece simplifies even if databinding is custom
15:37:53 <jackjansen> q-
15:37:59 <Steven> q-
15:38:53 <oedipus> JB: what does this look like without the XForms markup? if have XForms markup for submission piece alone, what if using YUI or other library - benefit of standardization - AJAX programmers don't all use dojo; want to standardize states and submission which makes them available to mujltiple application languages - actual markup languages as well
15:39:27 <oedipus> CW: get certain amount of simplification through declarative markup, but still framework issues if differences show through programming model
15:40:10 <oedipus> JB: more backplane - submission working in demo, even though not using Events; chunk of markup that could be used by dojo programmer or YUI programmer, or in SMIL app
15:40:21 <oedipus> CW: can capture results and use own notification
15:40:34 <oedipus> q?
15:40:55 <oedipus> CW: would a dojo programmer want to use this?
15:40:59 <oedipus> CW: how to invest effort?
15:41:16 <oedipus> CW: build assets and compelling examples to motivate AJAX community to pay attention to our work
15:41:27 <oedipus> CW: helpful exercise for that? should that be our agenda?
15:41:34 <oedipus> CW: who are our audiences
15:42:04 <oedipus> JB: think is right tack
15:42:27 <oedipus> JB: excited by demo and want a copy to demonstrate
15:43:27 <oedipus> JB: even with small part of big picture - what is CW's comment about "smothering" related - markup could be reused if someone crteated the right "glue" could be used by dojo user, glue determines library
15:43:51 <oedipus> CW: misunderstood - want output useable by dojo and YUI user
15:44:25 <oedipus> JB: even this little demo shows benefit of encoding most important pieces - don't have to change dojo widget (strength of dojo) - gives dojo neew capaibility to provide data sources
15:44:39 <oedipus> CW: don't have to change script to go from flickr to picassa
15:44:51 <oedipus> CW: do YUI implementation to show binding to diff script objects
15:44:54 <oedipus> JB: right
15:45:18 <oedipus> CW: Events not burried in script - can register own listeners if use submit
15:45:34 <oedipus> CW: mix-and-match - element semantics in parallell with dojo widgets and listeners
15:46:19 <oedipus> TL: already added some but used dojo callback - in model argument, specify what kind of code you want
15:46:31 <oedipus> CW: listening directly with XML listener along with DOM listener
15:46:50 <oedipus> JB: if have SOAP based web server, could do some clever bits when information came back
15:47:17 <oedipus> JB: TL's code uses events (submitDone, submitError) in glue codes to tell dojo when and what info available
15:47:32 <oedipus> JB: backplane - events are key to how components talk to each other
15:47:41 <oedipus> CW: return to JJ's use case?
15:47:55 <oedipus> JJ: suggest people have a look at it if can
15:48:37 <oedipus> JJ: question: always looked at XBL for glue language - particularly gluing changes in data model to javascript - does XBL have part to play here?
15:49:00 <oedipus> SP: XBL has good chance of enhancing work - seen excellent examples linking XHTML, XForms and SVG together
15:49:05 <oedipus> JJ: sample URI?
15:49:17 <oedipus> SP: XForms+SVG version of googlemaps
15:49:27 <oedipus> SP: not currently working; will ping author again
15:49:59 <oedipus> CW: ubiquity library in FF uses XBL to add behaviors to each XForms namespaced elements in page - calls conventional javascript object
15:50:04 <oedipus> SP: that's what XBL does
15:50:29 <oedipus> CW: yes, but use object attached with XBL - javascript could be used to manipulate DOM
15:50:37 <oedipus> SP: does ubiquity use XBL?
15:50:39 <oedipus> CW: no
15:51:06 <oedipus> CW: not too much XForms in XBL directly due to javascript limitations
15:51:25 <oedipus> CW: postpone custom controls discussion until next week
15:51:34 <oedipus> CW: what examples should we build?
15:51:38 <Steven> I vote for Google maps in XForms
15:51:47 <oedipus> CW: something more complete?
15:51:54 <oedipus> CW: agree? ideas?
15:52:40 <oedipus> SP: i vote for google maps in XForms - hundreds of thousands of lines in javascript - shrunk dramatically when put into declarative form (XForms)
15:52:50 <oedipus> SP: combine more than 1 W3C tech into example
15:53:47 <oedipus> SP: splitting google maps into functional part (looking at latitue and longitude at particluar zoom level) - rest presentational on top of essential function - just chaning latitude, longitude and zoom
15:53:55 <oedipus> CW: overlays, pinpointe, etc.
15:54:17 <oedipus> CW: other mashups?
15:54:52 <oedipus> CW: like example - clear separation of backplane from UI
15:55:19 <oedipus> CW: Silverlight in XForms in backplane - navigator for olympics as good as Silverlight?
15:55:43 <oedipus> GJR: Silverlight port to linux underway by mono project at novell
15:55:50 <oedipus> JB: no depository for demos
15:56:31 <oedipus> TL: picassa allows to create album
15:56:39 <oedipus> CW: google docs - calanders and such
15:57:12 <oedipus> GJR: would like to "see" one non-visually dependent example or an example of using declarative markup to reuse data stream
15:57:59 <oedipus> CW: feed reader example might be good - google example would be good too - entry point into data
15:58:20 <oedipus> CW: discuss on list components and stictch together next call
15:58:41 <Steven> s/picassa/picasa/G
15:58:55 <oedipus> JB: with JJ on call and expertise with SMIL and SYMM - binding media presentations with underlying data - short presenation possible?
15:59:32 <oedipus> JJ: be gone for 4 weeks begining next week - submitted paper and if i can share, will post URI on list, otherwise will have to wait until presentatoin formally given
15:59:40 <oedipus> CW: pick up next week with custom controls
15:59:45 <Zakim> -Steven
15:59:46 <Zakim> -jackjansen?
15:59:46 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
15:59:46 <Zakim> -Charlie
15:59:48 <Zakim> - +34.91.549.aabb
15:59:52 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
15:59:53 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended
15:59:54 <Zakim> Attendees were Charlie, +31.20.616.aaaa, John_Boyer, Gregory_Rosmaita, +34.91.549.aabb, Steven, jackjansen?
16:00:08 <rahul> rahul has left #backplane
16:00:08 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has left #backplane
16:00:14 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:00:20 <oedipus> zakim, please part
16:00:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #backplane
16:00:33 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:01:20 <oedipus> present- jackjansen?
16:01:27 <oedipus> present+ Jack_Jansen
16:01:32 <oedipus> present- +31.
16:01:35 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:01:56 <oedipus> present- .aaaa
16:02:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/24-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:06:06 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
16:06:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items