07:02:41 RRSAgent has joined #forms 07:02:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-irc 07:03:23 Good Morning Everyone -- is there a tetlphone conf set uo yet? 07:03:35 Not yet 07:03:53 klotz has joined #forms 07:03:55 klotz_ has joined #forms 07:03:56 Ok -- will monitor -- but I am awake and here! 07:04:05 klotz_ has left #forms 07:04:07 OK, thanks keith 07:04:38 It's very early... 07:06:22 3:00 here on EST 07:06:45 You should maybe get a few hours more sleep and join us in the afternoon... 07:07:46 It'll be ok... I am an early bird anyways :) 07:07:57 Charlie has joined #forms 07:12:32 Are you able to use skype? 07:12:36 Keith 07:13:16 no, but I may be able to use Sametime voice suite -- I have international permissions 07:13:22 wellsk? 07:13:27 yes 07:13:51 ah thought you might be at home but you are on an ibm network and can' t use skype? 07:15:13 yes -- I do not have skype installed -- but should be able to hook in though the IBM intranet using their sametime tooling with voice suites 07:26:13 rrsagent, make log public 07:26:52 I'll give a shot 07:38:08 Steven has joined #forms 07:40:12 rrsagent, make log public 07:40:19 rrsagent, here 07:40:19 See http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-irc#T07-40-19 07:42:45 ebruchez has joined #forms 07:43:01 scribe: Nick 07:43:07 scribenick: nick 07:43:23 scribenicknick: nicknick 07:43:33 John: There is an XForms 1.1 problem in how repeat works 07:45:34 Action: John to Fix descriptions of repeat index update on xforms-insert and xforms-delete for XForms 1.1 07:45:34 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - John 07:45:34 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jkugelma, jboyer) 07:47:03 John to fix XForms 1.1 wording for repeat processing to associate repeat index updating with capture phase on containing model, not target instance [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/05-forms-minutes.html#action01] 07:48:38 John: We have work on XForms 1.1, I added the people who have actions on it to the agenda 07:49:37 John: There are a couple of reviews too 07:51:15 John: We need to decide as a group which specs we want to produce for XForms 1.2 07:52:09 John: We have a message module, maybe we can go through it and see how we can produce an instance module 07:52:43 Erik: What does the instance model do for us? Is it a requirement, does it solves problems? 07:53:41 Steven: We will do modularization to ensure better consistency and compatibility 07:54:10 Steven: We could even just do XForms 1.2 as a module on top of XForms 1.1 07:54:49 Charlie: It enables the integration of XForms modules in toolkits like dojo 07:56:00 perhaps using non-xml data, e.g. JSON 07:56:08 Nick: Asks Steven about doing a separate module for "implied submission" 07:56:09 s/instance model/instance module 07:56:48 Nick: Can you change the behavior of an attribute (e.g. whether it is required or optional) 07:57:23 Steven: You would modularize the submission attributes, then create a submission element module that consumes them in one way 07:57:58 Steven: You don't have to do them as separate specs 07:58:00 Steven: and an implied submission module that consumes them differently 07:58:30 klotz: How do you say which modules an implemantation supports 07:58:42 s/implemantation/implementation/ 07:59:40 Steven: so XForms 1.2 could be XForms 1.1 and an extra set of modules 08:00:36 Steven: There is a dtd, schema version and outside W3C there is a Relax NG version 08:01:21 Klotz: There is sourceforge project that is an XForms 1.1 relax NG schema 08:02:16 Steven: Ideally we would modularize XForms 1.1 and create some extra modules for XForms 1.2 08:02:51 John: How many specs do we end up? 08:03:20 Steven: That is up to us, one spec or two specs (core spec and the XForms 1.2 addition modules) 08:03:49 Nick: How much work is it 08:04:07 Steven: XForms 1.1 is more or less modularized 08:04:26 Steven: It needs some work, but is partially already in there 08:04:35 Erik: What does it mean 08:05:14 Steven: You specify which elements have extension hooks (elements and attributes) 08:06:01 Steven: What you do you write it in a schema natural way (English) and then generates schema or dtd 08:06:54 Nick: Is there a requirement to generate a dtd or schema? 08:07:13 Steven: No generating a dtd or schema isn't required 08:08:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/0081.html 08:08:59 http://code.google.com/p/lib-xh/wiki/MessageModule 08:09:55 John: Where do you put the MIP-events they are dispatched to UI-controls but always dispatched by the model , do you put those in the module-module or the ui-controls-module 08:12:17 Erik: We should fix the MIP-events to make them usable 08:13:00 Erik: We could add new events that are usable in a separate module 08:13:51 John: when you rewire controls we should send an initialization event 08:15:11 Charlie: If you remove the events from the module-module then you still needs something to communicate with the module 08:18:04 Steven: I don't see the problem with events, javascript is also based on events 08:18:34 Steven: XML events is the base of the javascript events 08:20:23 s/XML/DOM/ 08:22:50 John: The module should send xforms-model-construct, xforms-model-construct-doene, xforms-ready, xforms-refresh 08:24:45 Klotz: if we have a module that only does the data (no submission, no UI) xforms-model-construct-done signifies when other modules can start working on the module 08:25:50 Steven: You have all these modules and a driver that decides how these modules work together 08:27:28 Klotz: do we define the communication by events or as IDL? 08:28:04 John: I have users that use the the xforms-model-construct-done to toggle switches, ... 08:28:32 Steven: all w3c languages are events based 08:29:34 Klotz: maybe we should do an extra level of abstraction 08:31:07 Charlie: We could define the events as informative, and not doing the work in the default handler 08:31:35 Present: Nick, Uli, Charlie, John, Erik, Leigh, Steven, Keith(remote) 08:32:10 Charie: We define an IDL that dispatches those informative events but does the work itself (not when handling the evenets) 08:32:22 s/evenets/events/ 08:34:08 klotz: it will enable the possibility for extra optimizations 08:37:42 http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-xforms-20031014/index-all.html#evt-modelConstructDone 08:39:30 klotz: we should make events informal, and create an IDL and the communication between the modules is done by the IDL 08:40:11 John: The instance module would contain the instance element, the setvalue, insert and delete actions 08:41:11 Steven: There is real value that XForms 1.2 is XForms 1.1 and this extra module 08:41:43 John: where is behavioral change 08:41:51 klotz: that all events are infomal 08:42:02 s/infomal/informal/ 08:43:00 John: we already hacked the xforms-model-construct 08:43:19 Charlie: ... 08:43:51 Klotz: we are missing cancel then (if we aren't doing the processing in the default action) 08:44:19 John: you could cancel submission 08:48:16 klotz: we need to have some events that invoke the IDL method 08:55:32 John: In XForms 1.1 the repeat related stuff is put in the repeat module, the submission stuff to the submission module, the only thing that maybe went wrong that the actions went to an action module 08:55:57 klotz: It isn't wrong, the actions are just an interface on the module 08:57:07 break time 08:58:01 brb 09:17:43 back 09:17:51 unl has joined #forms 09:19:19 John: Where do we go from here, we will stick with one spec, we need to rewrite it a bit 09:20:30 Steven: I would propose the get all elements and attributes and do a rough division 09:23:10 John: We can set a bit on an event to cancel the event 09:24:21 Nick: I don't like that, we should use XML events to cancel it 09:27:30 John: Why would the events be in the actions module? We have a lot of events that aren't triggered by actions 09:29:08 Steven has joined #forms 09:30:50 klotz: what do you need to change if you want to switch to XML events 2.0 (for example bcz. we are modularized they just change the version of XML events they use) 09:31:06 Charlie: it is just plug and play 09:31:25 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Draftsw 09:31:31 s/w// 09:31:39 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts 09:31:42 xml events 2: http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/ 09:31:44 http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xml-events-20070216/ 09:31:57 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xml-events2 09:33:16 John: How would someone catch the version of XPath that is used 09:33:40 Steven: They would be separate version of the module 09:34:14 Steven: They would have a data-type 09:34:52 Rafael has joined #forms 09:37:17 MS defines a mapping JSON-XML: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb924435.aspx 09:37:33 Roger has joined #forms 09:39:33 John: explains problem with allowing different expression languages 09:39:44 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-adc596226cd8e557bd136ddd6f04afae92db56ac 09:40:03 (module breakdown listed in 2.0 features 09:40:35 also, wouldn't Mark's Message module posted earlier be a good starting place? 09:41:50 1.2 modules: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-59b64c2c07c13848069d48f8097ca1b28be16d9e 09:43:33 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ 09:43:42 Steven: is going to project some examples of modularisation 09:44:58 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_xhtmlmodules 09:53:57 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_intrinsiceventsmodule 09:54:48 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_common_collection 09:55:02 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_events_collection 09:59:50 Note that the Events collection is only defined when the Intrinsic Events Module is selected. Otherwise, the Events collection is empty. 10:04:43 http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/AddProfileAtt.html#AddAttRelaxNG 10:08:48 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features 10:11:16 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-59b64c2c07c13848069d48f8097ca1b28be16d9e 10:12:04 Steven: Data Properties module could have the attributes type, constraint, ... 10:13:36 klotz: I would have thought that the module-module would have an IDL method to ask for validity 10:14:58 klotz: So data properties needs to modify the DOM to allow adding properties to nodes 10:17:05 klotz: it could be possible that the user-defined properties can only be added by other modules 10:22:05 Steven: starts writing the modules on the wall 10:34:41 xforms 10:34:41 data 10:34:41 Instance data 10:34:41 type 10:34:41 Meta data 10:34:42 manipulators 10:34:44 logic 10:34:46 submissions 10:34:48 binding 10:34:50 constraint 10:34:52 calculate 10:34:54 relevant 10:34:56 controls 10:34:58 container Form controls 10:35:00 group 10:35:02 repeat 10:35:04 input Form controls 10:35:06 outut Form controls 10:35:09 10:35:10 label 10:35:12 messaging 10:36:07 lunch 12:04:29 Charlie has joined #forms 12:05:55 unl has joined #forms 12:08:31 Roger has joined #forms 12:34:02 FYI XProc uses an xpath-version attribute to specify the version of XPath requested: http://www.w3.org/TR/xproc/#xpath-context 12:43:31 xforms 12:43:31 Model 12:43:31 data 12:43:31 Instance data 12:43:31 type 12:43:32 Meta data 12:43:34 Properties set, get, create 12:43:36 manipulators 12:43:38 IDL for set, get, insert, delete 12:43:40 bind 12:43:42 expression engine 12:43:44 logic 12:43:46 constraint 12:43:48 calculate 12:43:50 relevant 12:43:52 controls 12:43:54 container Form controls 12:43:56 group 12:43:58 repeat 12:44:00 switch 12:44:02 input Form controls 12:44:05 outut Form controls 12:44:06 12:44:08 label 12:44:10 messaging 12:44:12 submission 12:44:14 cross-cutting: 12:44:16 actions 12:44:18 events 12:44:20 IDL 12:44:22 elements + Attrs 12:44:24 expression extension functions 12:44:44 xforms 12:44:44 -Model 12:44:44 --data 12:44:44 ---Instance data 12:44:44 ----type 12:44:45 ---Meta data 12:44:47 ----Properties set, get, create 12:44:49 ---manipulators 12:44:51 ----IDL for set, get, insert, delete 12:44:53 ---bind 12:44:55 ---expression engine 12:44:57 --logic 12:44:59 ---constraint 12:45:02 ---calculate 12:45:03 ---relevant 12:45:05 -controls 12:45:07 --container Form controls 12:45:09 ---group 12:45:12 ---repeat 12:45:13 ---switch 12:45:16 --input Form controls 12:45:17 --outut Form controls 12:45:19 -- 12:45:21 label 12:45:23 messaging 12:45:25 submission 12:47:06 http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#structure-model-instance 12:47:36 http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#structure-abstract 12:48:27 TOPIC: Instance module 12:48:39 http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#structure-model-instance 12:48:46 http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#structure-abstract 12:57:10 rrsagent, make minutes 12:57:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-minutes.html Steven 12:57:52 Meeting: XForms FtF, Amsterdam, Day 1 12:58:10 Chair: John 12:58:24 Present+Rafael 12:58:28 Present+Roger 12:59:01 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_instance_data_module 13:00:06 rrsagent, make minutes 13:00:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-minutes.html Steven 13:02:54 Regrets: MarkS 13:04:31 discussion about adding setvalue, getvalue, ... to instance, there are problems if you use another expression engine (context, expressions), you also have the problem that readonly needs to be enforced which is in the logic module 13:05:08 john: you need to be able to override the IDL functions 13:05:33 klotz: maybe we need pre/post hooks 13:08:38 klotz: how can we give access to the DOM interface and support read-only 13:10:29 klotz: we can do this by specifying precisely what operations are allowed 13:15:13 that is Mark typing 13:15:38 markbirbeck has joined #forms 13:25:39 Present+MarkB 13:33:22 John: value change events are send to UI-controls and send during refresh, not when the instance changes 13:34:36 Charlie: I think we need to focus on refactoring to modules and not discuss the related new features 13:34:51 John: but they may change the modules 13:36:43 John: We already have getInstance(), maybe we should shoot it 13:37:09 Charlie: lets modularize first then later fix 13:39:55 Uli: we have an XPath data model not a DOM model 13:42:05 John: we can use XFormsNode and define our operations 13:42:24 rrsagent, make minutes 13:42:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-minutes.html Steven 13:42:32 Erik: Don't create the 6th XML representation model 13:44:14 Erik: we can use infoset 13:45:13 s/infoset/XML Information Set (Infoset)/ 13:45:25 http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-XPath/idl-definitions.html 13:53:57 unl has joined #forms 13:58:34 in java they have http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/index.html?javax/script/ScriptEngineManager.html 13:58:46 http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/javax/script/ScriptContext.html 13:58:51 (wrong link) 14:04:25 klotz: explains that leaf nodes in JSON can't an object that holds the value 14:04:33 I'm not quite sure what you guys are talking about...but if you are discussing 'access languages' for different data models, I think it might not be the right approach. 14:04:57 XPath and XQuery are 'abstract' syntaxes, and the XPath data model is 'abstract' too. 14:05:09 So we can still access JSON data with XPath. 14:05:34 I could...sorry. 14:05:38 :-) 14:06:18 The Ubiquity XForms processor uses Google's AjaXSLT library... 14:06:33 ...that implements XML an XSLT on browsers that don't have it natively... 14:06:48 ...so an XPath query there is effectlively querying against JSON. 14:06:50 John asked if we could define IDL to get the references from an expression-lanuage string and have it return an object array; I said that in the JSON implementation, it would be necessary to return tuples of {hash,name}, and Uli said just returning an array of strings simply for the path. 14:07:02 John_Boyer has left #forms 14:07:14 not clear if that (xpath over json) is an attractive option for the current ajax community 14:07:31 We've discussed that it's possible to apply Xpath to a JSON data model, and with suitable restrictions (first-node at each level, no mixed content, no attributes) it's possible to apply a JSON expression to an XML data model. 14:07:41 Charlie...I agree that there is a question there. 14:07:54 But note that lots of libraries now are letting you express CSS with XPath. 14:08:11 So we shouldn't assume that XPath is a 'no no'. 14:10:42 So we follow YAGNI and decide not to worry about JSON while we are working on modularization today, not having sufficient examples to generalize from. 14:12:59 http://c2.com/xp/YouArentGonnaNeedIt.html 14:13:08 John_Boyer has joined #forms 14:13:54 charlie: lets make it work with XML first 14:14:18 John: what does getReferences return: NodeList 14:14:57 John: what does getDocument() return: DOMDocument 14:16:43 I think if you implement the instance module in isolation you need DOM, but if you wrap instance up in the rest of XForms it's your choice as an implementor whether to expose it or not. 14:21:43 http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-XPath/idl-definitions.html 14:23:14 Erik: Is not enough for us, the context needs a position and context-size 14:23:46 Erik: Otherwise position() and last() wouldn't work 14:35:35 John: When repeat adds index() does it becomes available in all modules, or only in some modules 14:42:44 Erik: How do we define in our language which functions are allowed where? 15:08:16 I'm not following this idea of "which functions are allowed where". 15:08:40 The extension mechanism is via @functions, is it not? 15:08:52 So aren't the functions then available to that model? 15:09:06 Is there a suggestion that we need more than that? 15:10:48 say it out loud Mark 15:20:00 we're in the instance module so we don't have @functions 15:20:24 unless we reintroduce it there... 15:41:19 You're trying to define an instance module that is independent of a model? 15:41:50 Isn't that pretty much the DOM? (Putting aside data model.) 15:42:14 String positionAttribute, 15:42:14 List collectionToBeUpdated, 15:42:15 NodeInfo insertContextNodeInfo, 15:42:15 List originObjects, 15:42:15 int insertionIndex 15:42:17 JavaScript supports pretty much everything...including aspects, John. :) 15:46:59 Aspect-Oriented Javascript: http://www.devx.com/webdev/Article/31695 15:47:54 end of day 15:48:02 Charlie has left #forms 15:48:38 rrsagent, make minutes 15:48:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/06/09-forms-minutes.html Steven 15:48:45 wellsk has left #forms 15:48:51 Roger has left #forms 15:49:55 John_Boyer has left #forms